For those claiming that we didn't really kill OBL

[Adsos Letter]

Why would the government lie when all OBL would have to do is issue a video of himself holding any one of the news frontpages claiming his death?

[eleny]

1. I know! It's just too simple

kr

[nonperson]

2. Asking for proof isn't claiming it didn't happen

It's just asking for more than a statement when we're told irrefutable evidence exists.

[JuniperLea]

8. I'm already sick to death of this asking for proof bullshit...

The president planned this out, they brought along an American Muslim soldier to attend to all the final religious dictates, and there is still argument. They got DNA, and there is still argument. OBL could have gone all Mick Jagger on our asses with "suicide on the stage" in full view and people would still argue. The evidence is there, and it will come out, yet no one can keep their pants on.

We don't deserve this president. I'm so fucking sick of us.

[nonperson]

13. So if George W. Bush told you bin Laden was killed

And they had photographic, video and DNA proof but they wouldn't release it oh and by the way we dumped his body in the ocean you'd take his word for it?

I've been listening to our government lie for sixty years. I need proof.

[Adsos Letter]

16. I can't help but reason that OBL would be more than happy to issue the proof

that we had missed him. If the government knew they hadn't actually killed him, the statement of his death wouldn't make him any safer.

EDITED TO ADD PHRASE "that we had missed him." :dunce:

[JuniperLea]

44. Strawman

Bush is not Obama, and Obama is not Bush. I wouldn't trush Bush to lance a boil on my lily white ass. Obama has done a lot of good for us all, and he's done it with harsh objection and ridiculous obstruction. Imagine if he had a little support.

[Shagbark Hickory]

62. Yeah for me, it's the whole dumping the body in the ocean bit that makes it all a little hard for me

I mean at least if they had a friggin body...

[Bake]

96. Governments lie. It's what they do.

All of them do. Johnson lied about the Gulf of Tonkin and we ended up in the quicksand of Vietnam. Nixon lied about many many things. Bush lied us into a war and we're still in it. Governments lie.

And even though I voted for and support Pres. Obama, as a citizen I want to see the proof. No, he doesn't have to show me his birth certificate.

But when the government reports that it killed the Most Wanted Terrorist and then buries the body at sea, yes, show us the proof.

I trust President Obama. But I still want to see the proof.

Bake

[nonperson]

103. +1

You can't claim the pot then refuse to show your hand.

[Bake]

111. Unless everybody else folds.

:rofl:

Having said that, I've come to see the President's point on this. Even the "reasonable" Rethugs agree with not releasing the photos. The nutjobs would never believe it anyway.

Bake

[quinnox]

18. "we don't deserve this president"

You got that right! But I suspect my reasons would differ than yours.

[Solomon]

46. Shakes head

I'll edit it for ya. You don't deserve this President. That works right?

[JuniperLea]

51. I like your edit!

You should do that a lot... you sure have edit fodder around here!

[Shagbark Hickory]

66. You should try it some time.

Editing that is.

[JVS]

47. Yeah, evidence is for losers!

[Adsos Letter]

49. You don't think OBL would have released a video by now?

[JVS]

54. Releasing a video would be appealing to evidence, which as we've established is for losers

[Adsos Letter]

56. Have we established that?

[JVS]

57. It is, at the very least, the premise of this sub-thread.

[Adsos Letter]

61. I disagree that evidence is for losers.

[JVS]

64. I do too. It was a sarcastic response to someone who is...

"sick of this asking for proof bullshit"

[Adsos Letter]

71. Ah, ok. I believe asking for proof certainly has validity; however

I also believe that the government has to weigh innumerable considerations in how to approach the evidentiary side of this. With the general need to proceed cautiously given the complications introduced into foreign policy with Pakistan's involvement, and the unique status of OBL.

I'm sure they will produce something evidence-wise; I'm equally sure not everyone will accept it.

[JuniperLea]

73. There's no way he's alive...

We'd know... he wouldn't let the opportunity to show up Obama get past him. Not a chance.

[nonperson]

104. You unwittingly make a good point

When we needed a terror scare to skew an election or force through some draconian legislation suddenly, right on time, there was a bin Laden video as if on cue. Our government released the videos and they played on every news network in existence. But now, after ten long years, we finally kill the guy and suddenly they can't show the video?

BULLSHIT.

[JuniperLea]

52. We would have plenty of evidence of OBL still being alive by now...

There's not a chance in hell that he would let this slide without putting the kibosh on all the revelry by appearing in a photo with today's paper... or yesterdays, with his own picture on the front page.

Dream the fuck on.

[JVS]

55. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[spanone]

10. so you're not convinced?

[Adsos Letter]

14. I'm not really questioning asking for proof; what I am saying is

that OBL could easily destroy any semblance of remaining credibility toward our governments statements regarding our various wars, by simply issuing a video of himself holding a newspaper headline reporting his killing...and grinning from ear-to-ear, no doubt.

The man declared war on the US; if so, this would be a further way to strike at the relationship between citizen and government.

He hasn't done so.

[seabeyond]

17. the whole world accept. hamas. alqueda. pakistan who it hurts. yet you...

just need proof. personal proof.

[nonperson]

34. When everyone starts accepting whatever governments have to say without proof

We wind up with governments that will say anything without proof.

Haven't we had enough of that?

[seabeyond]

37. there comes a point when a person takes tinfoil too far. you have done it. even in conspiracy

there has to be HAS TO BE,

reason

there is no reason in this quest of yours.

[Shagbark Hickory]

70. Dumping the body in the sea.

Typically this is only done when someone wants to get rid of evidence.

[Adsos Letter]

74. Not really; burials at sea (including ash-scatterings) occur pretty regularly.

But this is no ordinary individual, in the scheme of things, I suspect there are a multitude of reasons the government took this approach; I just don't happen to believe there is anything nefarious about it.

[Shagbark Hickory]

76. They kept michael jackson's body for how long?

They couldn't hang on to bin laden for a few days even?

Like he deserved a ceremonial type of "burial"?

[Adsos Letter]

I understand what you are saying; I just think the implications

for the way OBL's body was handled were much greater than anything associated with the handling of MJ's body.

I don't absolutely know the real answer, I just believe that the handling of this whole thing is a very complicated matter on innumerable levels, and I don't ascribe anything particularly nefarious to it.

Perhaps time will tell; perhaps not.

[seabeyond]

89. why should they. kill, dump, be done. excellent. nt

[Liberal Gramma]

101. It's not a matter of what he deserves.

It's a matter of respecting the religious beliefs of millions of Muslims. A Christian is entitled to a Christian burial, a Muslim is entitled to a burial in accordance with Islamic practice, which includes burial within 24 hours of death.

[pipi_k]

78. Kind of like when...

JFK Jr died along with his wife and her sister and they scattered his cremated remains at sea?

I wonder what "evidence" they were trying to get rid of there...



So...burial at sea was a really bad idea even given the very real probability that no country on earth would have wanted OBL's dead body buried within its borders and the US didn't want his burial site to become a shrine for AQ?


sigh...

[Shagbark Hickory]

86. I have lots of ideas of what they could have done with the body.

They should have fed it to lions and let them shit his remains out all over the saharan desert.

Or is that not in accordance with his religious traditions? If so, pardon me in advance.

[seabeyond]

88. or you dont want a shrine on land. nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

100. Shine for Bin Laden? Hell, they won't even let you build a friggin mosque in some places now.

I doubt the shrine would happen.

[seabeyond]

102. you wanted to bury him in the u.s.? really? i didnt know that is what we are arguing

geeez

[Shagbark Hickory]

108. We aren't arguing except I never said to bury him in the US (refer to #86). My point is...

Immediately disposing of the body in a way that is consistent with serial killers and mafia gangsters (at least to people in the west) looks suspicious.

And using the defense, "well we did it to be in accordance with Muslim tradition," like I said earlier, the man didn't deserve a burial that was in accordance with Muslim tradition.

The people that died on 9/11 didn't get their ceremonial burials.

[seabeyond]

109. whether you feel he deserved it or not is irrelevent. the president chose to honor the religion and

prescribed said burial. hence, within 24 hours. the concept and reality is very easy to understand. it isnt like you have to accept, but because you fail to accept does not suggest conspiracy is the conclusion

[Shagbark Hickory]

110. I didn't conclude anything! That's my point. Is the president a Muslim or something?

How do we even know Bin Laden is a Musim? Judging by his violent and murderous past, I'd say it's a safe bet that he swore off Islam many moons ago.

In any event the evidence was discarded before anyone had a chance to independently verify.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. As soon as the GOP can "prove" that Jesus exists and wants to outlaw abortion

I will consider listening to their ridiculous, idiotic demands for 'proof' on all manner of shit.

[blondeatlast]

31. What proof do you want? What will satisfy you, personally? nt

[nonperson]

36. The photos. The video. The DNA evidence. You know

Corroboration. Like they do in science, PEER REVIEW.

[hlthe2b]

38. You dismiss his wife/daughter that witnessed OBL's killing?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/osama-bin-laden-wife-children-pakistan_n_856974.html

[nonperson]

97. I don't dismiss anyone or anything

I'm not saying bin Laden wasn't killed. I'm saying the U.S. government dumped the remains at sea. All that's left is the photo, video and DNA evidence. That is now the only evidence left other than eye witnesses. Release the evidence. Make it public. U.S. taxpayer dollars paid for the operation. U.S. troops carried it out. Since the body is now irretrievable, I believe U.S. citizens have a right to see the evidence that exists.

Look back through my posts. I never said I don't believe the operation was carried out. I never said I don't believe bin Laden is dead. Yet people here continue to suggest I said that or am suggesting that. bin Laden is dead. Release the photo, video and DNA evidence.

I've been asked why I need to see evidence. I must ask, why won't our government reveal the evidence?

[pnwmom]

40. It's doubting. Why doubt Obama on this, when it would

be so easy to disprove, if he were lying? Why would he ever take such a dumb risk?

[Shagbark Hickory]

77. Why would it be? There's going to be videos either way. He probably made a video 10 years ago.

[Adsos Letter]

80. Of him holding up one of the hundreds of headlines proclaiming his death?

I suppose that with photoshop anything is possible, but if we are on that level no evidence will ever be beyond reproach.

Edited to Add: and of him speaking directly to the specifics of his reported death?

[Shagbark Hickory]

83. You think bin laden is going to hold up a newspaper like in hollywood movies?

That's not the way he operates. He'll vaguely mention some current event.

[Adsos Letter]

87. If he were alive and wanted to really rub it in the face of the US?

Yeah; that's exactly what I believe he would do, and with reference to very specific events.

If he were dead, any pre-recorded release "vaguely" mentioning some current event would not suffice to convince most people.

[Shagbark Hickory]

99. Why try to convince people when you can simply cause so many to question it?

That's more fun, don't you think?

[pipi_k]

81. Who did? OBL?

Whoa. What a trick that would be, huh?

A video from ten years ago showing a dated newspaper with current events right on the front page...

Maybe OBL was a time traveler...

Because, you know, that's the only video that would have any veracity.

The correct headlines with the correct date.

[Shagbark Hickory]

84. You think bin laden is going to hold up a newspaper like in hollywood movies?

You're writing a script for the wrong character. That's not how he operates.

[pipi_k]

92. If he's alive and he wants people to KNOW he's alive...

that's exactly what he does. It's what I would do, and I'm nowhere near Hollywood.

And it's at least worth the same consideration as the idea that this is all some huge conspiracy perpetrated on the entire world by the US government, including people who would otherwise be going after each other's throats (D's and R's).

[Shagbark Hickory]

98. Or maybe he's gone into retirement. To go play golf with the Bushes. nt

[dkf]

59. I'm sure it will come

They are gauging what exactly to release and it's impact.

[Adsos Letter]

63. I agree; I think that is the greater consideration in all of this.

[JuniperLea]

3. He would have already done this by now...

Well done! In my attempt to figure out some convoluted reasoning, I came nowhere near this obvious bit.

[Vincardog]

4. Why would the government lie? Please don't get me started

[Adsos Letter]

12. Why would the government lie in this case, when OBL's counter to it would be so simple

Im understand the reasoning of those who suggest that OBL's body has been on ice for years; I'm questioning those who think we are lying about having gotten him in this raid.

[Vincardog]

25. OH in this case they are nor lying he is dead. They just lie of out of habit most of the time

[Adsos Letter]

39. Well, my question is regarding this case specifically. That the government lies, we already know.

I suppose if OBL were truly still alive he might want to withhold any video evidence to the contrary in order to increase our internal polarization.

Or, he would simply release a tape and prove this administration is either unbelievably stupid, or out to deceive the American people, or both.

Why the administration would possibly risk such a thing makes absolutely no sense to me.

[leftstreet]

5. I think some people thought he was already dead n/t

[emulatorloo]

7. I think some people thought Obama was born in Kenya n/t

[leftstreet]

11. Yes, and Obama released his birth cert to prove otherwise n/t

[emulatorloo]

15. Just proves some people think lots of things that may or may not be true

Sounds like Osama wasn't dead yet.

[seabeyond]

22. and still. not enough. still, they want more. taking him to court as a forgery. nt

[leftstreet]

50. LOL true. It's just messy. The guy who releases his bc throws a body in the ocean

I'm not interested in any conspiracy theories, it's just that the timing is a little bit :rofl:

The conspiracy nutz are probably getting super strong signals through their dental fillings

[seabeyond]

21. yes. and a good number have admitted and shifted. and some welded into the idea and cant

let go.

[tekisui]

6. Well, there would be a benefit if he were already dead.

[seabeyond]

23. ??? nt

[tekisui]

28. I agree there is no reason the government would claim he is

dead if he is alive. There could be a benefit to claim he has just been killed if he had died some time prior.

FWIW, I believe that he was killed Sunday. I am just giving the reasoning behind those who don't.

[Adsos Letter]

30. I understand your reasoning Tekisui, and I think it has validity...

My question is aimed primarily at those who think we didn't get him at all.

[seabeyond]

33. i cannot see a bet of validity. what would it be. i cannot see any reason bush would let obama

have credit for the capture.

[Adsos Letter]

43. You raise a good point about the hand off between administrations

I suppose people who have believed OBL dead for some time also believe his death was hidden because Bush was able to use OBL as the symbol fueling the need for war.

You are right; it isn't reasonable that he would not "kill" OBL at the end of his term, unless there is something going on that is so incredibly conspiratorially complicated that it would be outside our ability to discover.

I'll go with Occam's Razor on this one; OBL is dead because we killed him in a raid on Sunday.

[seabeyond]

65. lol. love your conclusion. i will do the same. nt

[seabeyond]

32. good you clarified position but why i dont buy that is, WHY would bush hand off a corpse so obama

could get the credit. from moment one people (people i really like on du) have suggested he was brought out of freezer). and have not had one answer to my question i asked a number of times. not one answer, let alone a logical reason, why bush would let obama have the credit.

[tekisui]

42. The only way I could imagine it playing out

is if Obama had some good intell that either bush didn't have, or it happened recently, that OBL had been killed. Again, that isn't what I think happened, though.

Body in freezer or bush knowing and not taking credit doesn't make sense, though.

[seabeyond]

60. the thing with conspiracy, is there has to be something, anything of reason. tht makes no sense

if it is obama holding onto the body, there is no visible reason to not have produced earlier. there is no reason to produce when he did.

any conspiracy has to have something to go off of. osama being dead prior to this, has NO reasoning at all.

911 conspiracy a person cant list out pages of contradictive, coincidences, lies.....

but there is nothing to suggest obama had killed earlier

[tekisui]

79. I am saying the theory would be that OBL died some time ago,

the US never did have the body, but knew he was dead, as had been reported and suggested for years. Then you have a show to end the idea of OBL.

Until evidence is released to prove otherwise, this type of thing will continue.

[seabeyond]

91. and they picked sunday. lordy, my brain cant tinfoil this. nt

[tekisui]

93. Your brain can't conceive a reason why now would be perfect timing?

[seabeyond]

94. then we spend the money on a fake opt? blow up a helicopter for fake opt?

go into foriegn country? someone elses home?

to stage such a thing

none of it makes sense

and sunday, may 1st. what????

[Drunken Irishman]

9. Because he never existed, man...

He was just an actor, man. You know? Like a character...created by Hollywood in the early 1970s, man. The actor playing him must have kicked the bucket, man. It's all...real...but not. You know?

[seabeyond]

24. hey, i hear a couple people believe this. i didnt know. had a chuckle. nt

[Modern_Matthew]

19. I blame the lack of transparency for conspiracy theories...

Government and corporations have no right to privacy. Period.

[seabeyond]

26. damn, then they should have let us follow step by step their investigation. oh wait....

obl would not have stuck around for the assault.

[Adsos Letter]

27. If OBL were still alive I doubt there would be any transparency issue...

UNLESS he felt he could gain some victory by remaining silent.

I think the government is weighing many consideration regarding release of images.

[cottonseed]

29. They should have piped in the kill video through YouTube.

There would have to of course be proof that it was in fact Bin Laden in the video, and that the the compound the video was coming from was actually where they said it was, and that the timestamp matches a second video to corroborate the first, and all of that's even before the kill.

[seabeyond]

35. and then tell us ahead of time, so we can have our popcorn made

snuggies on, fire going.....

[rbrnmw]

41. It wouldn't make a difference to some

if the event were streamed live for everyone to see We have the "no planes hit the WTC folks" and a large portion of the Country saw the second plane hit live on TV.

[Adsos Letter]

48. I agree.

[RoadRage]

45. And if you're gonna FAKE IT...

why not spread out the love a little bit?

Frankly, Obama already looked good this week.. he debunked the Birther BS, Looked great tearing down Trump at the Coorospondence Dinner Friday night, and had a nice hour-long interview with Oprah on Monday.

If this was "Faked".. why not time it to be released in say Mid-October, 2012... talk about sealing an election.

No, this wasn't faked - if it was, it would have been released at a far more "convieneint" time.

[JuniperLea]

53. Obama looks good...

That is the root problem here. No question.

[seabeyond]

68. ya. that is it. nt

[seabeyond]

67. unless... after the jab at trump at dinner, he wanted a double whammy with apprentice

if you are going to pull out the body, might as well be to really get a laugh at trump

[Warren DeMontague]

107. Eh. After the Long Form, Trump's "candidacy" is a smoldering hair crater.

Especially after the Press Correspondents Dinner, which was a thing of Beauty. Faking this now would have been just gratuitous overkill.

[Shagbark Hickory]

72. Or at least that's what they thought you'd think if they didn't do it when they did.

Or perhaps didn't do what they may or may not have done.

[Vinnie From Indy]

58. His death is only one question of many actually

For those that believe he is dead, there are still questions.

Was no intelligence agency following or monitoring his family members that were allegedly captured in the raid? Did they join him in Pakistan or have they been with him since 9/11?

Are we to believe that the Pakistani intelligence service was unaware of this compound in Abbattobad?

That is just a few I have.

[Adsos Letter]

69. Those are questions I also have, especially regarding the role of Pakistan

and I think our foreign relations just got a whole lot more complicated.

[Old and In the Way]

75. Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a minute.

First off, I agree, if OBL was still alive, it would be a very stupid thing to attempt such a deception. Obviously, a picture of a smiling OBL holding a copy of the recent NYT front page would be a disaster of epic proportions...so we can discount that idea right off the bat. But what if he was already dead?

We know (unless someone can factually refute this) that OBL was not in the best of shape prior to 9/11. He was supposedly in a hospital getting kidney dialysis in the summer of 2000. AFAIK, that's a pretty good marker that he was in failing health, unless he got a kidney transplant at some point. The NYT, Asian Times, and Fox News reported on OBL's death in 2002. After that, the few videos allegedly of OBL were highly controversial. Most were just audio tapes. Without a formal acknowledgment of his death though, he still remained useful to the prior administration as the face of terrorism and continued justification for their corrupt GWOT From 3/02 onward, the Bush administration was no longer interested in going after OBL - they had other priorities. Could have been a cynical attempt to shift their focus to Iraq and an unspoken hidden reality that resources spent on a dead man was a waste of time.

So Bush/Cheney hand off this mess to Obama...2 wars of no real strategic importance to this country except as a profitable tool to convert US tax dollars into MIC profits. Obama and his administration probably are given the news that OBL is dead soon after being sworn in. Does anyone really think he'd have a national address to tell the American people, "guess what? OBL died 6 years ago and the Bush administration didn't tell the American people!" Since he's a forward looking guy and not interested in holding them accountable for an illegal/immoral war, I doubt it.

But he knows the cost to American lives and US Treasury cannot continue indefinitely and the whole justification for being in Afghanistan is to hunt down and kill OBL. Perhaps an intel report of AQ operatives holing up in Abattabad presents an opportunity to finally 'kill' off OBL officially. The event goes down, subject is shot in the face, his remains dumped overboard. Real DNA evidence proves they got OBL. The End. Now Obama can get us out of Afghanistan because "Mission Accomplish" and the Republicans now have no reason to support an ongoing military action in Afghanistan.

BTW, I wonder if they took pics of OBL's kidney dialysis equipment? ...or was he using one of the local clinics for his treatment? Seems like that medical problem would have been hard for him to remain in hiding unless he had a pretty sophisticated home KD system up and running.

[Adsos Letter]

85. You may! My question was aimed specifically at those who think he

is somehow not dead such as I have read in a few posts(admittedly, very few) and heard on KGO this morning.

In answer to your scenario, which is more in line with what those skeptical of the whole thing have been asking, I simply think that the collective ego of the Bush administration would not have allowed them to hand off to President Obama without first claiming the political coup of capturing OBL.

The 2012 election will certainly have a strong component of claims regarding the ability to "keep America safe" in strictly WOT terms; why wouldn't the Bush administration deprive Democrats of that point? If anything, it holds a door open to President Obama to make some fundamental changes in the current situation we find ourselves in.

[Old and In the Way]

95. I suppose the Bush administration would be extremely reluctant to

expose Obama's deception by exposing their own deception.:-) If that were to happen, I'd cut Obama the slck because I believe it was done for the good of the country. OTOH, I'd be very happy to see a criminal investigation opened to prosecute Bush/Cheney for what I believe to one of many lies that Bush/Cheney used to bankrupt this country...morally and financially.

[Gregorian]

82. Look, if Osama is alive, he'll show up with another video. Him holding the current New York Times.

It's a waste of time to even discuss this.

[Adsos Letter]

90. Our time to waste, I suppose.

[chowder66]

105. Osama and I are here playing the drinking game.

Every time someone comes up with a new conspiracy we gulp our guinness. Man we are so drunk! Woo hoo!

Okay okay you got me, he's not drinking guinness he's drinking O'douls.

[nonperson]

106. The Ed Show poll

Do you want to see the bin Laden death photo?

67% YES
33% NO

Personally, I want to see the photos and the video of that dead son of a bitch, hopefully with sound. DNA evidence too, even though I have no idea how to interpret it. I want to see it all and I don't need my government telling me I'm not mature enough or I might be upset by it. That's my decision, not theirs.