With all this discussion of how he died, I got to thinking about the

[PCIntern]

end of the Rutger Hauer film which was a modern-day sequel to Steve McQueen's role in the old TV Western, "Wanted: Dead of Alive". At the end, Hauer leads the terrorist out with a hand grenade stuck in the guy's mouth, and claims his reward which was amplified with a bonus if he returned him alive. Hauer looks at the terrorist for a moment and then says, "Fuck the bonus!" and pulls the pin...everyone runs away and the explosion ensues.

I hate to say this, but that would have worked for me...

[damntexdem]

1. No, that's all wrong:

a timer would be better -- less chance of someone (other than the terrorist) getting hurt.

;-)

[PCIntern]

2. ten second grenade... that's enough time AFAIC. n/t

[sabrina 1]

3. Wow! I guess the culture of violence Americans grew up with

truly has desensitized them, as claimed around the world. How sad that this 'would have worked' for you.

MLK, and all those others who died trying to bring about a different world, would probably have to admit that their cause was hopeless. Even democrats now get a tingle in their spine over the violent blowing up of another human being.

The 'John Wayne' syndrome has infected the left. Too bad Americans' only heroes are from 'action movies'.

[PCIntern]

5. Give me a break...

I apologize for not being a member of the Society of Friends, with whom I communed as a student for six years and my mother taught for over 20. This isn't John Wayne, this was real and these guys killed a dangerous beast who killed thousands and would kill thousands or even millions more with no, I mean NO conscience.

Yes, this was an action, but not a movie, a real one. Anyone who's been in combat knows that it's them or us, no questions asked. This man deserved to die and AFAIC, his death was not prolonged or painful enough compared with those who sufferred and who continue to suffer to this day, including those with severe pulmonary illnesses which will eventually claim their lives from the dust and debris.

Sorry you're so reasonably calm...I spent years listening to that, I'll be polite, "opinion".

[Wait Wut]

6. +1

:applause:

[johnroshan]

17. Apart from being all macho and hateful, that course of action is actually dumb.

Here we have the head of a worldwide terrorist network that we know so little about. Instead of trying to take him alive and gather information, lets put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin!

That'll certainly satisfy our thirst for blood, but does nothing to make us safer, which I believe is the ultimate aim.

[gratuitous]

14. Yep, our religion is the High Church of Redemptive Violence

And once we're told often enough and long enough, we believe anything about anybody. It's an article of faith, and insisting on our ideals as written in the Constitution is grounds for excommunication. As to the matter at hand, I've heard that bin Laden approved of the September 11 attacks, but I haven't seen any evidence that he was the mastermind or an accomplice or even the inspiration for them. The public was promised a white paper on the subject from the Bush administration, but in the horrified aftermath, followed by the rush to dust off and enact the Dictator's Guide to Usurping Power, I mean, the USA PATRIOT Act, and the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, that sort of fell off the agenda.

We believe in the Missile, the Gun and the Nuclear Bomb.

[kentuck]

4. I think this was a kill mission.

They were not to bring him back alive.

[PCIntern]

7. I agree. n/t

[quinnox]

8. As a huge fan of Hauer

That is one movie of his I missed, adding to netflix queue...

[PCIntern]

9. As his films go, it was one fo the best...

great villainous portrayals too...similar but better than those in "Black Sunday" w/ robert shaw

[geckosfeet]

10. Cool. Modeling behavior after movie scripts.

Growing up odd.

[PCIntern]

11. You think that life doesn't imitate art? n/t

[geckosfeet]

12. Please. This is monkey see monkey do.

[PCIntern]

13. So you're also saying that film has no basis in fact?

I'm just trying to get a handle on how you perceive the Universe. Are we all dancing around the Maypole yet?

[geckosfeet]

16. I like movies. They are fun to watch. Wonderful diversions. But they are movies.

Stories. Sometimes morality play, sometimes pure fictions, sometimes historical.

Fine. I understand.

I guess that I find the act of shoving a grenade in someones mouth to be so far from any reality that I have ever experienced, that I cannot comprehend it's value. Then, taking it several steps further by saying that it somehow would make sense in 'the real world' is in my mind, fantasy of fairly high order.

In general, I find the substitution and transposition of imagery and plot lines from television/movies/entertainment into ones life to be disturbing. Don't misunderstand, I love art. I have a decent dvd collection. Have degree in art etc. Does art imitate life and visa versa? Sometimes.

But always, art springs from life. Art should give us insight into who and what we are. Less often should we derive our identities from art itself.

I am horrified sometimes, when I see people/children posing with a toy or product IN THE EXACT POSITIONS AND SITUATIONS that are portrayed in advertisements and commercials for those those products. Ideas and thoughts about who they are have been imprinted on them without their even knowing it - and they are driving their behaviors. Industrial and corporate interests are telling us who we are and how we ought to behave. They give us simple thoughts and ideas, little bits of placebo and pacifier that keep us sufficiently mollified so that we don't have to work too hard to develop and create ourselves.

But I digress.

Simply put, I don't think shoving a grenade in someone mouth is a behavior to be emulated.

[deutsey]

18. +1

I'm a huge movie buff, but I'm also keenly aware that movies typically reduce complex, ambiguous realities down to personalities. That's just how you have to do it in most film narratives: good guys vs. bad guys. Many give the impression that when we get "Mr. Big," who's the source of all this badness in the movie, all will be right with the world. That's great for movies, but it doesn't really happen that way in real life.

[geckosfeet]

22. That's a huge point. You have maybe 120 minutes to explore a theme that

has been central to human existence since the birth of theater.

If you ask me, the modern made for television movie genre is a corporate formula. It seems that made for TV writers make no attempt push the thematic ball forward these days. They are required to put out simple pablum that serves primarily as a platform for product presentation - which in itself is a statement about the art.

[Angry Dragon]

15. 'Off with their Heads'

:popcorn:

[Bonobo]

19. Do you realize that you have given permission for everyone in the world

who thinks that someone else is a "monster" to do whatever is necessary to kill them?

That means any person that feels victimized by Bush or Obama or Clinton or Carter (anyone whose family was killed by them, etc.) and a whole slew of people besides.

How do you answer this philosophically?

[Shagbark Hickory]

20. Yeah seems befitting that our military actions are modeled after the Wild West. nt

[GeorgeGist]

21. You'd make a good Republican.