Honestly... I would not give a shit if they shot him in his sleep

[Ohio Joe]

oh... but we should have given him a trial

Normally, I would agree but here I see zero shadow of a doubt he was a mass murderer with a favored target of innocents.

oh... but we should not assassinate

Again, normally I would agree but I would have cheered the GI who put a bullet in hitlers head and not thought twice about that either.

oh... but he was just fighting against US imperialism

By targeting innocents? Fuck that shit.

As I've said... I'm glad the fucker is dead and I hope it was painful.

[Modern_Matthew]

1. K&R, brother. nt

[calimary]

59. I lean that way myself.

He spent an awful lot of time evading justice, living well and comfortably, spending time with his many children and numerous wives and sycophants, seeing many dawns and sunsets, savoring many a meal, sleeping and waking, and very well-protected - which one cannot say for all of his victims on September 11th AND other al Qaeda strikes as well. Difficult to find much sympathy for him. We finally got him. Minimal casualties. Quick and decisive. And that's that. End of story. I have no tears to shed for him. And I'm really not inclined to worry all that much about whether it was humane or justified or whether he was armed or unarmed or whatever.

Justice was finally served, and the souls that have cried out for it for almost 10 years can maybe rest a little more peacefully.

[seabeyond]

2. he wanted to play war. bushco gave him war. this is war. nt

[aquart]

3. I hope he was afraid.

Because I don't forgive him for the jumpers.

[proud patriot]

58. +1

the jumpers or the children dodging the jumper's bodies in their schoolyard

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mrsadkins9399]

5. He got off too easy nt

[Ilsa]

55. I agree. I wish he had been fed alive to piranhas, not turned into fish food posthumously. nt

[Cid_B]

73. Line of the day for me goes to Jon Stewart...

"You know who won't see it? Bin Laden... Because we shot out his eyes and now he lives in a pineapple under the sea (Flash to Spongebob backdrop)"

[MichiganVote]

6. He has had a 15 year long trial. And he built his own prison and he chose his own death.

[JonLP24]

7. Not a fan of exceptions

Either due process for everyone or due process for no one.

That said, I don't know enough about OBL's death to determine if there was a way to get him out alive or if it was legal.

[coalition_unwilling]

99. I advocate a return of the Star Chamber (UK readers may get

the reference), followed by drawing and quartering, but most definitely preceded by a Bill of Attainder. Let's return to the way things were before the Peace of Westphalia. Habeas corpus, presumption of innocence, right to a trial and counsel are so 20th century.

[TwilightGardener]

8. Agreed. Many of his underlings got their due process on the battlefield.

I don't see how this was different.

[guitar man]

9. sonofabitch needed killing

And that's what he got. Good deal.

[cherokeeprogressive]

45. "Honest Sherf... that fucker NEEDED killin' LOL agreed n/t

[cali]

10. I find I'm just not big on vengeance- and no, I'm not mourning his death

[TwilightGardener]

12. How did killing this guy turn into solely vengeance, and not urgent national defense?

Did he file official retirement papers with the AQ personnel office or something?

[tekisui]

14. When was the last actual threat from him?

When was the last attack or even attempted attack from his AQ?

I have no problem with the US going in and coming out with his body, but I don't think there has been an urgent national defense issue for years.

[TwilightGardener]

18. Unless you have some intel that the rest of us don't, it'd be reasonable to assume

he was still a threat.

[EFerrari]

23. He hasn't led anything operational in almost ten years.

AQ has franchised and his role was very diminished in the process. That's not a secret.

[TwilightGardener]

26. If it took us ten years to find the guy, then I'd give little to no credence

to any info we had about his day to day involvement with AQ.

[EFerrari]

65. You asked how he was downgraded from an urgent threat.

He's not as high on the food chain as he once was is the answer to that question.

[TwilightGardener]

81. If AQ is still an urgent threat...why wouldn't he be? No reason to underestimate

his influence on his followers.

[EFerrari]

86. Because AQ is not one thing any more.

There are a number of reporters, like Ahmed Rashid, who have been covering this evolution extensively for a number of years. At least since 2006. There are many groups now who use the name but that have nada to do with bin Laden. They are not his followers. That wasn't true on 9/11. The new lack of structure or even of affiliation in most cases presents a new challenge for the professionals in charge of containing these people.

[TwilightGardener]

87. I understand that. But that doesn't mean he doesn't pose a continued threat

if left at large. Unless he surrendered, he was going to be pursued.

[EFerrari]

89. Of course. But a continuing threat isn't necessarily an urgent one. n/t

[Ohio Joe]

27. Nor has it been a secret...

That he has continued to be the figurehead and a financial backer. There is a long list of attacks done in his name and with his blessing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_al-Qaeda_attacks

[EFerrari]

70. AQ is not a top down organization any more.

You can't tell by looking at that list what he was and wasn't involved with. I'm not saying he wasn't an evil fuck, but he has been no where near the center of things for a long time.

[Ohio Joe]

74. Perhaps but...

He was still the face of the organization, beyond a doubt, and did nothing to change that. Everything done was done in his name and he never once denounced any of it and praised much of it. By allowing everything done to be done in his name gives all of it his approval.

[EFerrari]

75. Well, that's the thing. A lot of groups call themselves AQ.

They are not operating as part of his organization at all. They do not act in his name, either, the credit does not go to him. His approval wasn't asked for or necessary.

It will be interesting to find out, when we do, who he was still working with in the last few years, if anyone.

[sabrina 1]

91. Well, according to experts on global terrorism the only

people who viewed AQ as any kind of threat, was the US. Young Arabs, as the Arab Spring has clearly demonstrated have little interest in these extremists any more. They have other ambitions such as good jobs, getting rid of US backed dictators, establishing real democracies in their countries. Many of them are very well educated and know a great deal about their country's history. But nowhere across the entire region of N.Africa or the ME, did OBL's face even appear on a protest sign.

The general consensus is that the US is way behind the times, the world has moved on beyond those old days of AQ. But then it serves the purpose of this government to keep the myth going so they can keep the wars going and the money flowing.

We are being left behind as the rest of the world moves into a different future with our boogie men and bloodshed and torture and medieval policies, and now we find, a whole generation of backward youth who think torture is just fine, while the Arab youth are far more intelligent, far more forward thinking and far more aware of how destructive such old, dark ages policies are having lived under them for so long.

The biggest hero to Arab youth, was NOT as we had been told, OBL, but rather two young men, a fruit vendor in Tunisia who set himself on fire in a last desperate effort to protest his country's brutal policies and a young reporter in Egypt beaten to death by the secret police. Their deaths sparked the historical uprisings that ousted two dictators. Those are the heroes of young Arabs and Muslims.

We are living in the past. I think there was a collective yawn worldwide at the news of OBL's death. Most people thought he was dead long ago and had pretty much forgotten him. What will not go unnoticed though is how regressive and brutal our policies are and that has led to the lack of respect for this country just about everywhere.

[Shiver]

30. Last January.

A string of suicide bombings in Iraq attributed to al-Qaeda. Here's a whole list of Al-Qaeda attacks, in fact: clickety!

[tekisui]

32. AQ in Iraq is not OBL's AQ.

[Shiver]

37. The two groups are allies, and considered part of the same overall organization. n/t

[tekisui]

39. There is no chain of command or strategy connecting them.

Not really the same organization. That is a neo-con frame.

[Shiver]

49. Eh. I was just takig information from Wikipedia.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, merely providing an answer to your question based off something I read the other day.

[Mrsadkins9399]

46. There also was alleged AQ involvement

In the 2004 Beslan school attack in Russia where 385 people,mostly children were killed.

[tekisui]

80. There are lots of regional, local groups how have taken the name AQ.

They are not actually connected with OBL's AQ. They are not funded by them, they don't converse on strategy, they don't carry out orders from them.

There is no longer a global AQ. There are branches that are sympathetic to similar causes.

[SDuderstadt]

68. Well, that's, like...

your opinion, dude.

[blueamy66]

77. The people that died on 9-11

are still DEAD, I believe.

WTF?

[tekisui]

79. That says nothing of urgency.

That does not speak to an immediacy issue. Look, I am glad they got him. I am giving props. It is long overdue and it feels great to finally not have him as a boogeyman and rallying point for fear-mongering.

But, I quit be afraid of him long ago. Operationally he hasn't been a threat for years. That is what I was responding to.

[guitar man]

13. ...

"I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.” — Mark Twain

;)

[Gregorian]

17. I think this kind of paradox is more than most can comprehend.

I like looking at results. Martin Luther King accomplished more than had he brandished weapons.

[blondeatlast]

38. But you have to be either/or!!! there's no room in this for the

conflict of logic over emotion! Choose! CHOOSE. CHOOSE, dammit!

(I know I need this, sadly) :sarcasm:

[Botany]

11. The SEALs did their job and it was to kill OBL

Can you think of the nightmare of bringing that asshat to the States for a trial?

[alphafemale]

15. I hope he shit himself and died smelling his own filth.

He could never have suffered as much as he deserved to.

[JVS]

16. oh... but he has information.

:eyes:

[backscatter712]

66. We recovered his computers, flash-drives & papers... Got a serious intel bonanza!

A nice bonus on top of whacking OBL.

[JVS]

67. More data to suppress! Huzzah!

His death instead of a trial means that a lot of info will never see the light of day.

[Cid_B]

78. I gotta ask...

Do you think that the "right thing to do" would be to immediately release any and all information found at Osamas place?

[Common Sense Party]

100. Only if Bradley Manning leaks it to Julian Assange.

Because they're heroes and stuff.

[patricia92243]

19. I believe in Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. He demonstrated on 9/11 how he

thought unarmed people should be treated. We just followed his example.

[Capitalocracy]

95. So we should follow his example and act like him?

That's your interpretation of do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

[Lucian]

20. Wow.

Why don't you pull out your two six-shooters, shoot them up in the air, and scream "Hee Haw!" while you're at it.

:eyes:

Edit to add:

[bluestate10]

21. Same here. They should shot him if he had been sleeping with a pacifier in

his mouth.

[xchrom]

22. What you 'see' isn't the point. Nt

[Throd]

24. I would have awakened him prior to ventilating his dome.

[leftstreet]

25. I miss the Royal Wedding threads n/t

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whatchamacallit]

31. +1000 (nt)

[Ohio Joe]

33. So I am responsible for that?

Sorry but I have never supported the targeting of innocents. My being an American does not make me responsible for everything America has done, nor does it preclude me from rejoicing when a criminal of such magnitude gets what he deserves. Should the day come when an American of comparable criminal history gets what he deserves you will see a very familiar post from me.

[MadHound]

40. Really?

Then why aren't you condemning our ongoing attacks on the innocents in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, and elsewhere around the world?

"An American of comparable criminal history"? Then do you so strongly condemn Bush for initiating illegal, immoral wars? Do you so strongly condemn Obama for initiating the same in Libya and elsewhere?

No, I doubt that you do, but meanwhile, the American slaughter of innocents continues unabated.

[Ohio Joe]

41. Pure bullshit

"Then why aren't you condemning our ongoing attacks on the innocents in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, and elsewhere around the world?"

I have repeatedly.

"Then do you so strongly condemn Bush for initiating illegal, immoral wars? Do you so strongly condemn Obama for initiating the same in Libya and elsewhere?"

I have repeatedly.

"No, I doubt that you do, but meanwhile, the American slaughter of innocents continues unabated."

You are incorrect about me. You are also incorrect to blame me for everything America has ever done wrong.

[MadHound]

44. Really, please, show us your human side,

Your posts condemning American imperialism. All I'm seeing is your bloodlust, your rage.

Also, I'm not blaming you for America's actions, just your reactions to those actions. You are cheering on this display of imperial bloodlust. Rather obscene.

[Ohio Joe]

47. Killing bin laden is imperial bloodlust?

Why yes! He should have been treated like a hero, that would have been much better... sheesh. What a load of crap.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucian]

35. + another 1000

[bluestate10]

36. Go to Pakistan and negotiate with Bin Laden's number 2. See how far you get.

Bin Laden had lost human feeling, he deserved to die. I know that enrages you, but frankly my dear, I don't give a fuck about your misguided outrage.

[MadHound]

43. And we have, as a country, already lost that human feeling, long ago

Just ask the Indians, or African Americans, or in more modern times, Iraqis, Pakistanis, Yemenis, etc. etc.

Don't even try to say that the US is a moral country, history is not on your side,

[Solomon]

76. If you know that

and I applaud you for knowing it - what's your beef then? Nothing different than what Reverend Wright was saying. That's our history. It's what we do. Who we are. We have never lived up to the words that have inspired the whole world. It's good to be outraged at wanting to be better, but the implication you're making is that we're going backwards somehow. There's a big part of me that doesn't like just going into somebody's home and shooting them dead, but on the other hand, I would rather do it this way, than carpetbomb the whole damn country, including wasted billions on blowing up mountains and caves in a wilderness. What a money boondoggle that was to say nothing about the hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths.

Nope. As much as I don't like it, this way seems to be an improvement to me, in this particular case. And by particular case I'm talking about someone as dangerous as Bin Laden. I see a lot of people poo-pooing his power here but that's totally ignorant of what he represented to the radicals and fanatics over there - someone who was proof that God was on their side. That their cause is the righteous one. If you don't think taking down Bin Laden was a huge deal, then you just don't get it.
He was a huge security threat. I didn't celebrate, but I'm damn sure relieved.

The whole operation was smart thinking, including the funeral and dumping the body into the sea. Thought through from beginning all the way to the end. If it allows us to finally get the hell out of there, then it's even more important.

[MadHound]

83. If you truly think that this was all smart thinking,

Then you really must not know what smart thinking is, much less what is really going on in this country and what went down with this operation. This wasn't justice, this wasn't a smart operation, this is simply taking care of loose ends, dealing with people that no longer serve their purpose for the American empire.

[Hosnon]

96. Who is? You seem to have a deep bias that has found an outlet here.

It is absurd that you are imputing the past policies of the American government to all its citizens to mitigate 9/11 as some sort of justified tit-for-tat.

Those 3,000 people DID NOT do any of the awful things the American government has done. But that man DID kill them in cold blood.

[MadHound]

97. And you are still not getting the point I'm making

Go to sleep, think on it, then get back to me. Good night.

[Hosnon]

98. Has it crossed your mind that perhaps you have failed at making a valid one? nt.

[Hosnon]

51. Nothing in your post has any relevancy regarding the killing of bin Laden.

Good lord...

[MadHound]

84. Perhaps you can't see the relevancy, but that is simply your own limitation,

Self imposed or otherwise. Educate yourself, talk with those who have been on the receiving end of America's "munificence".

[Hosnon]

90. That history is irrelevant. This man killed 3,000 innocent Americans.

Past policies of the American government do not IN ANY WAY mitigate that.

He deserved to die, and the world is a better place because he did.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hosnon]

94. Well, according to you, that IS the American way.

Clearly you won't respond with substance regarding why the past policies of the American government mitigate the slaughter of 3,000 innocent Americans; so, have a good night.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chrisa]

88. Pretty much every nation in the world has a bloody history that they aren't proud of.

Not to excuse what the US has done or support it. However, the US isn't the only one. Not by a long shot.

[MadHound]

93. So if that doesn't excuse the US for what it has done,

Why does it sound like you're trying to make it an excuse?

Aren't we supposed to be the New World, the beacon of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Don't you think it's past time that we actually started living up to those words?

[B-Stupid]

29. True that &

I hope they punched him in the nuts 1st for good measure.

[apocalypsehow]

42. I was sent this way by a whiny little call-out thread, and am delighted to add my Rec. n/t.

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. The crabs that are picking apart his rotting flesh are simply glad he's dead.

They don't care about reasons or recriminations. They're just hungry.

[Yavin4]

50. Amen.

He targeted the mass murder of innocent people worldwide and called on all Muslims to do the same. I have no fucking sympathy for him. None.

[TheKentuckian]

72. Sympathy is completely beside the point.

It isn't about him but about who and what we are.

I'm not the least bit sad for bin Laden but I am sad that we are regressing to dark agers with rule of law only for those that "deserve it" rather than for one and all.

Our justice system and laws are most needed for those accused of the worst crimes.

We don't have exceptions for if someone is accused of something especially heinous because once you start going there the lines move and move and move some more.

This line of thinking leads to being guilty by accusation, even when it starts in a very clear place like this. There is too much blood lust in humanity and our society especially to fool around with exceptions. Not when we are already engaging in things like torture, indefinite detentions, tribunals, renditions, and Presidents declaring they can order the murder of American citizens on their own authority without even charges being filed, much less a trial.

No, it is fine and dandy for bin Laden but it does us as a people few favors. We should maintain our principles when it is hard. Doing so when it is easy doesn't count for a whole lot and holding on in the toughest times makes us grow as a people and strengthens our system.

[TheManInTheMac]

52. As another DUer paraphrased from

Unforgiven William Munny: Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to murder 3000 Americans.

[rollin74]

53. I agree. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Moondog]

54. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

56. He killed more than 3800 people across the globe and bragged about it

Each incident he was proud of. I will be saving my pity for someone more deserving as well. I'm fine with him being dead, he lived a life which lead him to this end. However it came about.

[REP]

57. I know how you feel

I cringe as I read some of the posts here. Yours isn't one of them.

[XanaDUer]

60. Well, he lived by the sword...

nt.

[one_voice]

61. Agree!!!

I hope he suffered too!!

[tallahasseedem]

62. Recommended...

Quite honestly, I think they might have been too easy on him.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[distantearlywarning]

64. Agreed.

I don't suffer too many pangs of conscience that Osama was shot while unarmed.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

69. I couldn't disagree more

I think it would have been extremely valuable to have interrogated him for a few years. I believe we could have learned many valuable things from the man about past operations, allies, etc. If you can shoot someone in his sleep, then you can certainly crack his skull with a rifle butt instead and arrest the man. The only downside is that you miss out on the bloodlust that appears to feed you.

[RandomThoughts]

71. Maybe that compound was an interrogation center.

:shrug:

who knows.


It would explain that story that he was shot while in custody, and would explain why they are talking about interrogation being part of the situation.


Although then everything else said would have to be made up and not true.


And since we are talking about 'what ifs' that can include anything.

Maybe the group holding him was the Bush symbol group, and a different faction went in to kill him to end the torture, and end the idea of forever war, that would make an interesting spin on it.


So easy to spin, if you think nothing is credible, anything could have happened.


And of coarse, I am due beer and travel money and many experiences.


You could easily see how it was an attack on the symbol of rule by fear, and not about a person that way.

[Leopolds Ghost]

102. Fuck that's a scary theory to think about. :-( But it would explain the location.

[coalition_unwilling]

85. Here's a modest proposal for you then: let's dispense with such

niceties as 'due process of law' for anyone accused of capital crimes and proceed to execute them without the courtesy of a trial. Then we can all gather in the street outside, bare our breasts and, beating on them while running in circles, chant "USA! USA! USA!"

Come to think of it, let's dispense with such quaint and obsolete notions as the "presumption of innocence" and "right to an attorney". Let's go ahead and torture everyone who refuses to admit their ghilt to our Grand Inquisitors.

Bring back the Star Chamber. Bring back Bills of Attainder.

USA! USA! USA!

:sarcasm:

[ZombieHorde]

101. OK, but what if they shot him while he was shitting? That seems the rudest.

(I'm not being serious)

[Scurrilous]

103. K & R

:thumbsup:

[texpatriot2004]

104. Yep. Agreed. nm