Top 10 Myths about the "Dark Ages" of Europe

[cowcommander]

http://listverse.com/2008/06/09/top-10-reasons-the-dark-ages-were-not-dark/
http://listverse.com/2009/01/07/top-10-myths-about-the-middle-ages/

It's a long article, but it has some interesting info that you never hear about anywhere.

[RandomThoughts]

1. Article was interesting.

Until it hit the PR 'little ice age' part. That is a PR story. And pretty funny, it has been shown on the History Channel also.

It uses a bunch of weather to make that conclusion, not climate, and sets the time line on that to conveniently be outside of comparable temperatures since their start date of the 'little ice age' was before daily recorded temperatures.


It is funny, they basically say the world is not getting warmer, it use to be colder, that is all they saying.


It is think tank propaganda.

[Speck Tater]

6. The did NOT say that. In fact, their own graph shows recent global warming clearly.

Methinks someone has an ax to grind, and it wasn't the author(s) of that article.

Both the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice age are well known to historians. This is not, as you seem to be implying, something made up by the author(s) of this article to discredit global warming.

[RandomThoughts]

7. It is on a graph saying Reconstructed tempature.

Maybe it is a label trap :)

[Speck Tater]

11. Temperature records were reconstructed using tree ring data

and other biological markers. The data is pretty reliable.

But I still fail to see what point you're trying to make. You've accused the article authors of something that I just don't see in the article. I think you're over-reacting to what strikes me as a very even-handed article with no trace of the kind of anti-climate change agenda you seem to be implying exists.

Nowhere in the article do they suggest that they doubt global warming, nor does any of their data suggest that, so I'm really at a loss to see what your issue is. I understand that having taken a position you feel psychologically compelled to defend that position (nobody ever likes to back down from an error, even an obvious one), but read that paragraph again and see if that bias is really there, or is just in your imagination.

[RandomThoughts]

20. I am reacting to the macro stored in the concept 'mini ice age'

That macro was loaded for me by a terrible documentary on that item without substance.

My response was from the article using that statement. And the statements from the show on that topic, loaded in the label 'mini ice age'


You may have something else loaded in your macro from the term 'mini ice age'

[RandomThoughts]

8. And what is there evidence.

They state that it started before their were daily recordings of temperature.

And they did not discuss Ice cores as showing that. Nor even size of glaciers.

[Speck Tater]

12. Evidence of what?

I don't see the authors of the article making any conclusions about global warming as you seem to imply.

Here is the entire text of that section. Where did they asy anything about the validity of global wamring?

Trivial as it may seem, the weather played a much greater part in the lives of the average people during the Middle Ages and beyond. When we think of the “Dark Ages” we tend to see images of snow storms, rain, thunder, and darkness – such as we see in films like “The Name of the Rose”. The fact is, in the Early Middle Ages, the North Atlantic region was warming up – so much so that at the opening of the High Middle Ages (1100 AD), the region was 100 years into an event now known as the Medieval Warm Period. This warm period thawed much ice and enabled the Vikings to begin their colonization of Greenland and other northern nations. Ironically, the Protestant reformation (16th century) up until the 19th century suffered the Little Ice Age – the period of “enlightenment” was literally darker and colder than the “dark” ages. During this period, reforms and better knowledge of agriculture provided a boost to food supplies.

What they site is well-established historical weather patterns. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period). This is not something the authors made up to discredit global warming. SO what point is it, exactly, that you are trying to make?

If you think the article is trying to discredit global warming, which sentence in the above paragraph is it that you take issue with?

[RandomThoughts]

13. I am saying seeing 'the little ice age' in a post gets me to think of PR.

And if they use that, they are under PR anyways.

You don't have to agree.


As far as the dark ages being good, it was mostly a feudal system good for a few people. And on an interesting side note, those that believe in temporal lore, believe that was because there were no records.

If you think having your wife and children thrown off land to starve, or attacked at the whim of some person with a castle able to hire some soldiers as what are better times, you have a different view then me.

It proves the distortions are not about temporal lore though.


Side note, some landlords treated people better.

[Speck Tater]

22. Hmmmm.

The term "Little Ice Age" is the-well established standard designation for the period in question. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age) Your knee-jerk response is more than a little nuts. But suddenly you are no longer talking about the "Little Ice Age", but talking about how you think that I said having children thrown off their land to starve is a good thing. WTF?!? I certainly never said anything remotely similar to that! Where the hell are you getting this stuff?

There's clearly no point in trying to discuss something with you, since I no longer even have a clue what it is you are discussing!

And why is it exactly that you favor stoning people to death for cursing? (I mean, if you can pull wild, unrelated accusations out of your ass then I should be able to do the same, right?)

And for the record, this whole thread has become so utterly pointless that I am not going to waste any further time on it, so don't bother to respond because even if you do, I won't bother to read it.

[RandomThoughts]

24. If you saw the history channel show.

What millions of people only know the 'mini ice age as' you would understand why that is an issue.

So it was an opportunity to show how loading a macro can happen, and how people can have macros loaded.


I am not in favor of stoning people, nor do I have a problem with cursing. Although usually avoid it just to be cordial to people that it does bother.


However if you say that what I say is unfounded, then look at the power, either groups that think power makes right have to change there stance, or they have to agree with me.

So the reason to make a statement with power, would be to get people to question if there is power from different sources, since some think all power by itself defines what is correct.

I don't try to claim if it is of better or worse, and every person has to decide that for themselves.

Any other questions?

You assume you reading a post of mine is required for a post to make a point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Actually the little I've age is a historic fact

Jesus there are days....

Tree rings and ice cores have evidence of it

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. Kick. You guys are filling up all my bookmark space with....

... these irresistible sites lately. So lemme just K and R this one and read it later.

[Davis_X_Machina]

3. Dude, "Dark Ages" is soooo... Dark Ages.

Everybody in the business calls it "Late Antiquity" now. And the beginnings of "Early Medieval" were pushed back to close the gap.

[NutmegYankee]

5. It appears we are beginning to see the light. nt

[msongs]

4. sonds like they had some better deals going then than now and all without electricity lol nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Am I the only one who feels a faint smell of agenda on those articles?

[hvn_nbr_2]

31. No, you're not. nt

[freshwest]

10. Thanks. I enjoyed reading those.

My family gave me the 2-volume set THE MEDIAEVAL MIND by Henry Osborne Taylor to read along with other books as I was starting middle school.

The people of that era were not stupid and probably many myths about other peoples in different times and places are inaccurate.

We have a tendency to believe we're smarter and more cultured than any other time in history. Our technology is different but our society will always have shadows from the past. Some are good and some are bad.

[Odin2005]

14. the Dark Ages are not synonymous with the Middle Ages.

"The Dark Ages" refers to the period between the fall of Rome to the revival of urbanization in the 10th Century., the High and Late Middle Ages were not at all "dark". In fact the High Middle Ages (the time of the crusades) was a time of rapid change and a time of important technological advances.

I like the debunking of the "medieval people didn't wash" BS, it was actually Protestants of the Early Modern period that didn't wash, but somehow that notion got attached to medieval folks.

[salvorhardin]

15. Thank you!

Like Commie Pinko Dirtbag, I smell the distinct whiff of political agenda in those two lists.

[Odin2005]

16. I don't think there is an agenda, just bad labeling in the first article.

Maybe I'm biased because the High and Late Middle Ages are a period that interests me greatly, but I think the time period gets a bad rap.

[JackRiddler]

17. In 1000 years they won't call our own era medieval, but they will probably think it was dark.

[Recursion]

19. I think the preferred term now is "late antiquity"

A lot of researchers today stress the continuities between Rome and pre-medieval Europe rather than the discontinuities (though the pendulum is starting to swing back the other way; there was a journal article I think last year titled "Yes, Rome Actually Fell").

[dimbear]

18. I tried to read the middle ages one.........

Got discouraged pretty fast. Let's just say there's been a lot of historical revisionism circulating, a lot of it encouraged by the Catholic Church, to make the past look less disturbing than it was. And the author of this list bought into it uncritically.

Did Medieval people stink? Oh yeah, 100% except a few in the upper classes. Live with animals? Oh yeah, absolutely. And so on. Poverty? Spot on. And so on. Usually those lists about myths list ideas that aren't actually true. That's sort of the idea.

[Recursion]

29. Where do you get your info?

Did Medieval people stink? Oh yeah, 100% except a few in the upper classes.

Your basis for this is...?

Live with animals? Oh yeah, absolutely.

I think the claim was that they didn't have vermin living within their thatch. Which they wouldn't if it was a tightly-woven thatch.

[dimbear]

35. You don't even have to go to the historical sources, which are many.

Just use logic. We are considering people who don't bathe or shower, people who haven't discovered deodorants, and also were unaware of the use of toilet paper. What would you expect?

It didn't cause the human race to go extinct because pretty much everybody smelled approximately as bad.

And if you're still unconvinced, check out Pepys' description of the streets of London. That's after a couple of centuries of progress.

[Recursion]

36. Why do you say they didn't bathe?

What's your evidence for that claim?

And if you're still unconvinced, check out Pepys' description of the streets of London. That's after a couple of centuries of progress.

"Progress" doesn't necessarily make things "better". And I was in Midtown NYC today, and it smelled pretty rank.

[Confusious]

32. Poverty is relative

If 99% of the population lives the same as you, and there is really no way to do better ( As in technology "do better" ) are you poor?

[MadHound]

21. Wow, what a load of out-of-context horseshit

I especially like the one that tried to claim that women weren't oppressed by citing the examples of a few women who stood out in history.

However this will be good for a laugh for a friend of mine who is an actual medieval historian at a major university, he needs a good laugh.

[provis99]

23. authors confuse Dark Ages with Middle Ages and Renaissance.

Plus their authorities appear to be wikipedia. Both articles are crap.

[aquart]

25. The dark ages began in 535 AD when Krakatoa erupted.

http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/535ad.htm

There are stories of whole villages in Britain walking to the edge of a cliff, holding hands, and jumping. Because that was preferable to starving.

When food was accessible again, civilization got busy again.

[REP]

26. 'Rules of chivalry' mostly existed in the literature of the time, not actual practice

These lists were compiled by those with a limited understanding of the periods they were trying to explain.

[toddaa]

27. 10 interesting tidbits I pulled off Wikipedia

Based on what else can be found on the site, I'll stick with the guys at Cracked.com for my lists.

[woo me with science]

30. So THAT's why freepers hate Muslims.

Algebra is hard!

[Codeine]

33. Wow. A piece about the Dark Ages that doesn't actually deal with the Dark Ages.

Exceedingly weak.

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. Wrong right off, actually

In the Middle Ages in England, for instance, the death penalty was given for theft of anything of value in excess of one shilling, for poaching, and for various other cromes many of which would be counted petty offences today (including blaspehmy and witchcraft).

Article is also wrong about the relative levels of violence in medieval society compared to today: for one example, the present-day murder rate in London is approximately 2.1 murders per 100,000 people; in the fourteenth century, it's estimated at 14 per 100,000 people (which is nearly three times the murder rate in the present-day United States).