When did leadership suddenly become about acceptable lying?

[The Backlash Cometh]

Did it start with the Iran-Contra thing? Is that when we legitimized deviousness as a leadership quality?

I'm guessing that it began with Iran-Contra, when a certain faction in this country decided that Oliver North was a hero. When they did that, they began a trend, rewarding the individual that was willing to take on the dirty work. It's a pattern that has been repeated a million times over since then. That's how good ole boy networks work, taking over by rewarding those who are most corruptible, and putting them in strategic positions. Those are the people who get promoted to leadership positions in your community.

It's obvious that the Machiavelli Mayberrys were in place during the Bush II regime, I'm just wondering if anyone can remember when it became so overt?

[mudplanet]

1. Ronald Raygun.

The highest number of appointees indicted
The highest number of appointees convicted

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. Iran Contra did happen during Reagan's Admnistration.

Why this is so important, is because the right-wing began to take over the media around 1990. Buying radio stations, and the early nineties is when they started their right-wing blogs. Slowly, they began to take over the news. Something that became easy for them to do by labeling all traditional news of the time as "Liberal." They dismissed traditional methods of journalism, and began propaganda news.

I'm just shocked how easily Americans have fallen for propaganda. This is something that you normally associate with third world countries or communist countries.

[BlueJazz]

3. Reagan lied about everything from "Trees being emitters of Carbon Dioxide" to..

"I know of a (Black) Woman who picks up her Welfare check in a Cadillac"

He lied whenever it was convenient.
No morales at all.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Something went very wrong during this time in American history.

[mudplanet]

8. Someone told the racists, the idiots and the greedy that they were

the real America

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. Lee Atwater?

[hootinholler]

5. Colonial Williamsburg

At least that far back on this continent.

-Hoot

[Taverner]

6. Since long before Machiavelli's "Prince"

[rgbecker]

7. Dare I mention Richard Nixon, or would that give away my age?

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. There were good people during Nixon's time. And many of them were Republican.

People of conscience, integrity. They had a moral compass. You can't say that about the Republican party anymore.

[Jackpine Radical]

10. Yeah, we're indebted to guys like John Dean,

who bailed on Nixon and on the whole Republican corruption scene.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Where are those good people today?

I think when you see people like Thomas, Scalia, Alito and Roberts make it to the Supreme Court, you know that our country is too far gone for good people to stand up without suffering great penalty. I really don't think we're going to get through this era without help from good people outside the boundaries of the USA.

[timo]

11. when they told us

nafta was a good thing

[ret5hd]

13. when moses came down the mountain?

nah, earlier than that.

[MrModerate]

14. I believe it started when Ogg lied about the paucity of mastodons around the cave . . .

So the tribe wouldn't kill and eat him.

Let's be real.

[Odin2005]

15. since 10,000 years ago.

[Recursion]

20. While I'm not a bible thumper

Kohaleth has it right:

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

(Ecc 1:9-11)

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. Which is to say, that Rome has fallen before, and will fall again.

[Recursion]

33. Basically

Umberto Eco is famous for writing historical medieval fiction. His most famous is probably "The Name of the Rose" (it is excellent; IMO "Baudolino" deserves greater fame).

In an interview, he said something interesting. As with all writers of historical fiction, he is accused of anachronism. He said that several people pointed out anachronisms with "Rose"; some specific historical ones (eg lens-grinding, or the geographical spread of Islam in 13th-century Spain) he copped to. Some others were about speeches, claiming the content was "too modern". He, at least, asserts quite forcefully that in literally every case of those, he was simply quoting an actual 13th-century source verbatim.

Or, as Faulkner said, "The past is not over. It is not even past."

[EFerrari]

16. If you think of Iran Contra as an early attempt at globalization

it makes a little more sense. Having any kind of decent relationship between government and the people becomes secondary to other goals, imho.

[Skittles]

17. when republicans were invented

[Ozymanithrax]

18. Well, acceptable lies are as old as Politics...

There really is nothing new under the sun.

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. But this has trickled down into the community.

You see the same kind of people. And sometimes, if you listen to tapes of public meetings, you can see how it's being done. I have a tape where a Mayor said that the city should find something for a core committee group because they would be useful to "spread the message."

[Ozymanithrax]

27. Local poltics is no different from interntational politics.

It is about power and they will lie if they can get away with it. They will make promises they do not intend ot keep, and they will make promises that they want ot keep but are impossible.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. But this lying at a local level effects us from cradle to grave.

We can't run from it. Church, school, city hall. They're everywhere. There is a Constitutional problem here.

[Recursion]

19. At least March 15, 44 BC

Probably quite a while before that.

[provis99]

21. at least since Plato's "Republic"

when he wrote that the leaders of society should be entitled to lie to everybody else.

[Recursion]

28. Though in fairness, that city was being considered as a model for the individual soul

So the "noble lie" in that case would mean that we fool ourselves into thinking that our reason is made of more noble stuff than our desires, when in fact it's all the same.

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. Thank you for this concept of noble lie.

I think I've just lived through one.

[Recursion]

32. I can take no credit

I was pretty much just quoting Plato's version of Socrates.

The Republic, incidentally is a great read. Don't let Strauss color it for you.

[GeorgeGist]

24. When Business as usual ...

became the model for Government.

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. I think it's more than business. I see evidence of military tactics being used in

some of the things I see in my community.

[bemildred]

31. Raygun is when overt lawlessness became OK.

You can argue Kissinger and Vietnam, but it really became OK under Raygun, you could be proud of it, like Ollie North.

[Duer 157099]

34. I also have it associated with Oliver North, in my mind

I think you're correct, it was Iran-Contra. There was a major shift after that, where it became heroic and noble to lie cheat and steal.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. And now we see where they're headed, swearing in Republican

congressmen by Roberts instead of the Vice-President.

[Recovered Repug]

35. Was there a time when it wasn't?

Besides a lie is just a great story that's fucked up by someone who knows the truth.

[Recursion]

36. Facts Schmacts

With "facts" you can prove anything even remotely true...

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Gee, ask the Christian Presidents, one after another who

claim the faith is all about being anti gay, and has no teachings about honesty nor about money, nor about justice. The Bible by Presidents: God made the world, gave me the keys, God hates gays, Jesus loves the little children, the end.