(mr. fish) Jesus Christ Pisses Off His American Constituency (upsetting - but...)

[kpete]

[pintobean]

1. Why do you do this shit?

[kpete]

2. to

provoke thought...

sorry, kpete

[pintobean]

5. provoke.

[Octafish]

23. Truly amazing cartoon.

Genius.

[pintobean]

24. All the holes are missing.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calimary]

10. What we've found pisses some people off is to point out to them that Jesus

VERY likely looked quite similar to an Osama bin Laden. Probably like most other young adult/middle-aged men of that time, in that part of the world, from those blood lines. Same swarthy skin, same facial shape and shape and size of facial features, same beard, possibly somewhat unkempt at times. Do you really suppose Jesus was the type Who spent that much time concerned about His appearance? Some people HATE the very thought of this as some sort of heresy. But they're the ones like ann coulter who assume Jesus had light-brown hair and blue eyes and a peaches-and-cream complexion.

[w8liftinglady]

12. I was thinking the same thing. They probably could have carried on a conversation

And,yes- the "real" Jesus would have been way too busy caring for the sick,poor,and downtrodden to care what he looked like.

[bvar22]

30. NO!

Jesus has Blue Eyes, Light Brown Hair, Western features, and sparkling white teeth!

I am offering this photo of Jesus as PROOF!!!!

[leeroysphitz]

42. Nascar jesus.

[Fuddnik]

59. Chesus Christ!

[tblue37]

50. Jesus Christ looked like a young David Hasselhoff? nt

[JuniperLea]

90. Plus the fact that OBL is still a child of God...

We are all God's children... GWBush, OBL, Saddam Hussein... who are we to judge? Who is to say OBL didn't repent his sins, accept Jesus as his personal savior, and receive forgiveness just before he was killed?

Not for us to judge... certainly not for Christians to judge... but my Fundy family really hates when I say shit like this.

[timtom]

155. Very well said, JuniperLea! (n/t)

[Whisp]

166. thats how I read the toon...

that Jesus would have forgiven even Osama. that he truly felt all of us were worth saving and comforting.

well, I don't personally believe in that but it's the best explanation out there, that Jesus really was a most kind and understanding person - but that part always gets mushed up into something else - too socialist / hippy-like I suppose.

[truth2power]

63. And a worthy endeavor it is. Thank you, kpete. eom

[Hissyspit]

7. What shit?

Mr. Fish is brilliant.

[Oilwellian]

51. Mr. Fish rules

See below. :D

[WilliamPitt]

21. Shit?

I found it interesting.

[progressoid]

36. I'm kicking and rec'ing this shit.

I'm fine with putting a couple holes in his head but I also like pointing out the "WWJD" thing to Xians.

[pintobean]

38. Good for you

but I have no idea why I needed to know that.

[progressoid]

41. Umm...

maybe it has something to do with reading and posting on a community discussion board?

[pintobean]

44. That doesn't explain

why it was directed at my question to the OP. It would have made more sense to reply to the OP with a rec and your love for christian bashing. I'm guessing that you wanted to 'get in my face' because you assumed that I'm a christian.

[progressoid]

47. I made no such assumption.

Just voicing my opinion about why I would k/r a post that someone else thought was shit. Simple as that.

[mdmc]

174. christian bashing?

The cartoon displays nothing more then God's ultimate love for man. God loves even pintobean's enemies.

[live love laugh]

68. Or maybe it was b/c you asked???? nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

136. kicking this shit

[mdmc]

173. curious - do you think Jesus hates Osama?

God is love..

[fascisthunter]

186. Would Jesus Forgive Bin Laden or Not?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. But..."Love your enemy" is so 1st century.

[coalition_unwilling]

17. LOL - n/t

[Oilwellian]

54. OMG

That was hysterically funny. :rofl:

[L0oniX]

81. +1

[Morning Dew]

4. Why

is Omar Sharif hugging Jeff Corey?

[Hissyspit]

8. LOL

A Jeff Corey reference! High advisor Plasus and "True Grit." :)

[Solly Mack]

6. I love dust bunnies.

K&R

[patrice]

9. Kick!

[whatchamacallit]

11. Put *that* in your pipe and smoke it! K&R

[gratuitous]

13. Yes, the High Church of Redemptive Violence considers this heresy

All hail the Missile, the Bomb and the Holy Rifle. All those ancient, quaint concepts like "love your neighbor," "serve one another in love," and "due process" just never understood the modern world and terrorism. The hardships of empire just don't conform very well to this asymmetrical warfare. It's not fair!

[hootinholler]

28. I thought it was the Holy Hand Grenade

"The number ye shall count to is three!"

-Hoot

[Solomon]

69. "Five shall be right out!

[WCGreen]

31. There was something about that in Beneath the Planet of the Apes...

[Hissyspit]

57. More Jeff Corey reference! nt

[NC_Nurse]

14. Love your enemy is not one of the favored Jesus quotes of RW religious

folks. The one about the rich man and the eye of the needle is a sore spot as well.

They like the old testament -vengeful homophobic Gawd stuff.

[readmoreoften]

22. Many DUers too. Celebrating and salivating an assassination as if it changed a damn thing.

[rug]

15. Wow!

k&r

[coalition_unwilling]

16. Who would Jesus extra-judicially execute? - n/t

[1620rock]

18. Thought provoking.

[Warpy]

19. I love Mr. Fish

and if you're a Christian who really understands what Jesus was all about, you will too.

[Enthusiast]

20. K&R! Great job!

Correct on all counts.

[mentalsolstice]

25. Jesus must have been one helluva tall dude...

Considering OBL was said to stand between 6'4" to 6'6".

[Blue-Jay]

46. Looks more like OBL is hugging Hercules.

[meow mix]

74. and batman is suppose to take this guy? good luck!!

what an ape!

[xocet]

110. That's just his godlike stature.... n/t

[treestar]

26. We need 2800 pics of Jesus hugging the victims of 911

and another million plus photos of Jesus hugging everyone who died in the 'war" on terra since, maybe, before we can handle this.

[Javaman]

72. or maybe the millions that have died as a result of people killing in his name

for the last 2 millennium.

[liberation]

113. Wait, in order to defend your religion you have to implicitly equate the victims of 9/11...

... with Osama Bin Laden?


Wow, the twist and turns logical dissonance makes some take...

[mdmc]

175. nothing is stopping you

draw them pics..

[ellenfl]

27. excellent! eom

[Union Scribe]

29. Lol, I see this as more likely to piss off Muslims

If this is locked, that'll be why.

[Angry Dragon]

43. I do not see why it would

It is my understanding that the Muslims believe that Jesus existed as well as the Virgin Mary
They believe he was a prophet

[14thColony]

77. Then you might want to research the reverence Islam has for Jesus

The Qu'ran teaches that he was the second most important prophet in history, exceeding all the Old Testament prophets and only being a (close) second to Muhammad. In fact in some ways he is considered more important that Muhammad. His stature in Islam is massive. And his mother is esteemed as the model of the ideal mother/wife for her devotion to God and family.

I would suggest that even the most fundamentalist Muslims would see no problem with the idea conveyed by this drawing. The issue of portraying the likenesses of two Holy Prophets being another issue completely of course...

[Shandris]

32. I know it's not popular to give a nod to reality versus ideology when they conflict...

...but I'm more than willing to sit back and let everyone who wants to go hug Al-Zawahiri or whoever took OBL's place do so and observe the results. I think we've a good idea what those results might be, but I'm always willing to be proven wrong.

Accepting that violence is occasionally necessary is no more 'worshipping bullets and guns' than plucking a piece of grass is 'committing mass genocide against defenseless plants'.

[meow mix]

75. lol k&r

ill like to watch that as well :rofl:

[blondeatlast]

33. Considering that whole "moneylenders" thing, I somehow doubt Jesus

and the bazillionaire murdering zealot are best buds. Yes, he forgives--but I doubt he forgets.

[dionysus]

34. you're not jumping the shark with these, you're jetpacking over it.

[Left coast liberal]

35. I love Fish. He's so raw sometime but I like it...

[ZombieHorde]

37. One of the nicer versions of Jesus I have seen. nt

[roguevalley]

39. I see the message of Jesus in that you forgive and accept the

redemption of a person from the cruelties of their life. Even Jesus would forgive and sit with Osama. He did with the Osamas of his day, Zealots and tax men.

[Shandris]

40. Yes, but you do not forgive unless forgiveness is ~sought~.

That's what seems out of place from that angle. If Osama were seeking forgiveness, then this art would be appropriate imo.

[blondeatlast]

53. That's a good point. I sensed some ignorance of Jesus'

teachings in this 'toon but couldn't put my finger on just what it was--I think you nailed it.

[Distant Observer]

67. You must be reading an "apocryphal" gospel for your SPECIAL DOCTRINE. Revelation to Joseph Smith?

Matthew 5:43

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luke 6:37

37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Mark 11:25=26

"And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in Heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your trespasses." (Mark 11:25-26 NKJV)


CAN'T FIND WHERE WE SINNERS SHOULD ONLY FORGIVE THOSE WHO ASK US FOR FORGIVENESS.

[Shandris]

80. Yes, it's my own special Apocryphal version.

They say sarcasm is the last resort of a weak mind. It seems to apply well.

Anyway, here's some commentary on your Apocrypha, from the very first kindergarten-level application of GoogleFu.

http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-paul-j-dean/what-do-you-mean-we-can%E2%80%99t-always-grant-forgiveness-11644112.html

[Distant Observer]

121. Just what I thought, the Dr. Paul J. Dean, special interpretation, designed for Americans. LOVE IT!

[Shandris]

138. No idea who he is.

Or did you miss that it was the first link in an elementary search?

As someone who was raised in church and at one time had attended services at well over 50 different variant denominations of churches, it's the one AND ONLY interpretation I've ever heard.

But I don't waste my time conversing with people who think 'LOL LOVE IT' is the height of conversation, either. Take it or leave it, I don't care either way. CLEARLY, you're the only one with the 'proper' interpretation of what I feel, after years of contemplation, is a myth anyway. Now have a Coke and a smile and... <cue Richard Pryor>.

[gratuitous]

70. Not at all

Forgiveness and grace are unearned, and not granted because they're sought, but because they are free gifts of God. There is plenty of biblical support for this concept (lepers seeking healing, but getting forgiveness, Zaccheus climing a tree and Jesus inviting himself to Zaccheus' house for lunch, the parable of the harvest and the workers). But beside that point, how do you know bin Laden did not seek forgiveness?

And forgiveness for what? Although "everybody" says he was involved in 9/11, I'm kind of a stickler when it comes to another quaint old concept known as "evidence." The Bush administration promised we the people a white paper that would explain in great detail bin Laden's involvement, but it probably got pushed to the back burner after the Waco economic summit (another promised report from the Bush administration that's never come out). Oddly enough, bin Laden's FBI wanted poster doesn't mention 9/11 as one of the crimes he was being sought for.

[L0oniX]

82. Here's a big clue for ya: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

[Shandris]

84. See post #80.

[fascisthunter]

187. we didn't need to... we know it's YOUR interpretation

I read and studied the bible for years

[Xithras]

88. You and I don't know what went through his head during his final moments.

I'm going to avoid the obvious "bullets" pun.

The fundamental tenet of Christianity is that everyone who genuinely requests forgiveness gets forgiven. Whether we're talking about our grandparents, Osama bin Laden, or Adolph Hitler is irrelevant. God is love, and no person is irredeemable in His eyes.

Anyone who is a Christian has to acknowledge one simple truth: If Bin Laden asked for forgiveness and meant it, then he will be forgiven for all his crimes on Earth. God does not judge us by our deeds, but by our heart.

As a practical matter, I think it's unlikely that he underwent a conversion just as the Seals were kicking in his front door, but there's no way to know.

[dana_b]

91. exactly what I was thinking

that is one of the things that Christians like to talk about - that no matter what a person has done in his/her life, s/he can be forgiven and will be with Jesus after this life. As long as that person is genuinely remorseful AND accepts Jesus as his/her savior, it's all good. However Bin laden was not a Christian (unless he converted before his death) so does this apply to him?

[liberation]

101. Which is why the bible is such a great thing

it is so full of BS that you can interpret it anyway you want.

Some see Jesus's message as it being of unconditional love, you see forgiveness as being conditional. And the funny thing is that either camp can find justification for their projections in the bible.

[Fumesucker]

151. The woman that was going to be stoned didn't ask for forgiveness..

But got it anyway...

John 8:3-11

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

[G_j]

154. 'Lord forgive them, they know not...

what they do...'

doesn't seem to fit then..

[Zebedeo]

48. This is so wrong

bin Laden was not saved. He was not a Christian and was not a good man. He rejected God's gift to mankind in the Person of Jesus, and He is now in a place of eternal torment, separated from God forever.

[Hissyspit]

55. Mmm...

So the image represents what could have been according to Jesus' teachings? Much easier to label 'wrong?'

[Zebedeo]

66. Yes, what could have been

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23

But:

God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

It seems vanishingly unlikely that bin Laden accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior before he was shot in the head and lost his life. He made his choice to live an evil life and reject God's gift of forgiveness and salvation, and he now is reaping the consequences of those choices.

[Arugula Latte]

98. You're quoting a book of mythology.

I suspect you know that deep down, though.

[Zebedeo]

102. I suspect

you know that God exists and the Bible is truth. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. It is a psychological defense mechanism. Denial of God's existence and the truth of Scripture is frequently employed in order to not have to contemplate the wrongness of one's own actions. Not saying that is your reason, but it is a common reason.

[Arugula Latte]

105. Silly, silly book.

Wow, your delusion runs deep. Plus, people who quote/believe Scripture are frequently among the biggest scumbags of society, so that doesn't exactly help your "argument."

[Zebedeo]

109. Perhaps

you are the one who is deluded. Satan is the father of lies. Perhaps you have been led astray by a lie. Atheism seems "cool" and "hip." But it is a dead end.

[JuniperLea]

117. Seriously, dude...

Your holier than though stance doesn't do your cause any good... in fact, you seem to be the kind of person who gives God a bad name... you are absolutely the kind of person that caused me to leave the church... I really hate hypocrisy.

[Zebedeo]

124. I am not holy, nor have I ever claimed to be.

So I don't know where you are getting that I am "holier than thou." The fact that you left the church is regrettable, but I hardly think the blame for that can be laid at my feet. If you turned your back on God and his promises, that was your decision and yours alone.

[JuniperLea]

143. Where did I say I turned my back to God?

I only turned my back to dogma and self-righteousness and judgment from humans like yourself who choose to go against God's word and continually offer up judgment after God told you that was his job.

Sitting in judgment of others is wrong, that's your decision and yours alone... that is using God's name in vain. He never asked you or anyone else to do that, yet you do it.

[Zebedeo]

161. No, I do not sit in judgment of others.

You have made that accusation against me several times, but you have never offered any citation to any post of mine in which I did so. I am not the Judge. God is. I did not write the Bible. But I can read it.

You seem preoccupied with labeling anyone who believes in the truth of God's Word as being "self-righteous." Your statement does not follow, and you seem to have missed a central point of Christianity. Christians do not believe they are righteous on their own account. Quite the opposite. Christians believe that they are unrighteous, and that is why they need the saving grace of God, in the form of the the blood of Jesus, for remission of their sins.

You may have gotten this distorted image of Christians from anti-Christians, who are plentiful in the modern world, particularly on this board. There are many who hate Christians, but Jesus said, "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18 He also said, "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." Matthew 5:11.

I suggest that you learn more about Christianity from people who actually are Christians. Perhaps go to a church from time to time and talk with the members of the congregation. You will find that Christians are not the monsters that they are portrayed to be on DU.

[MikeH]

129. Remember his Christian charity and compassion

Remember the Christian charity and compassion :sarcasm: he showed in his comments about the paintings of a seven year old boy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7569611#7569674

[JuniperLea]

144. Egad... I do remember that... vividly...

More judgment, more self-righteousness... yeah, very Christian indeed... :sarcasm:

Good call, MikeH.

[Zebedeo]

150. I did not judge the boy. I gave an opinion

on the quality of the paintings that so many were breathlessly venerating. The paintings are remarkable for a 7-year old, but quite tacky if judged by adult art standards. So, the boy shows promise for his age, and may even be considered a prodigy, but it remains to be seen if he will develop into a great artist.

That is not a judgment of the boy, but an opinion about the art that everyone was fawning over. As to your accusation of self-righteousness, I am at a loss to understand on what basis you have made the charge. I have not claimed to be righteous on my own account. Instead, I have claimed that Jesus Christ is righteous, and his righteousness covers my unrighteousness.

[GliderGuider]

119. Satan is known to be the "Great Deceiver", right? So...

...how do you know who really wrote your Bible?

Hmmmmm????? :evilgrin:

[Zebedeo]

125. Satan hates the Bible

He plants lies to deceive humanity, to make us think that Christianity is not "cool." He tempts us and entices us with things of this world. But the Bible is the time-tested true Word of God. Being immersed in the Word leads to good things. That's why Satan hates it.

[GliderGuider]

131. How do you know?

He told you, right?

Face it, the only way you have of knowing anything about Satan is from the pronouncements of the Church. If Satan is as powerful a deceiver as you believe he is, that very Church could be entirely his own invention, which he created to lead the faithful astray.

[Zebedeo]

133. Wrong

I do not need "pronouncements of the Church" to know that Satan is the father of lies. I know it because Jesus Christ said it:

"When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

[LAGC]

140. Who had total control over what words got put into the Bible?

That would be... the Church.

The Church says Jesus said... how can you trust anything in that book?

[Zebedeo]

141. The Bible

is the inspired Word of God. You can deny it, but it won't make it any less true.

[MikeH]

142. The Bible was written and put together

The Bible was written and put together by fallible human beings.

You can vigorously assert that the Bible is the "inspired Word of God" but that does not make it true.

[Zebedeo]

148. Believe whatever you want to believe

It is your own business.

[JuniperLea]

145. You should try reading it...

Paying special attention to the part about not bearing false witness and not sitting in judgment of others.

[Zebedeo]

149. I have not borne false witness or sat in judgment of others in

this thread. Far from it. God is the Judge, not I. If I quote Scripture, make no mistake - I am not making the rules - just reading them.

[MikeH]

172. Not making the rules - just reading them -- and passively and unquestioningly accepting "the rules"

If I quote Scripture, make no mistake - I am not making the rules - just reading them.

And above all don't question "the rules", or the source from which "the rules" come.

Like the German officials being tried at Nuremberg whose defense was that they were "just following orders".

[LAGC]

147. Did God whisper in those authors' ears when they wrote it?

That's called schizophrenia, not inspiration.

[Zebedeo]

152. 2 Timothy 3:16

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

[LAGC]

153. So, if I were to write a fictional book, but pretended it was non-fiction...

And I simply said somewhere in it that "everything said in this book is the absolute truth because God told me so" that would seal the deal in your eyes?

Or is that more like circular logic? :crazy:

[Zebedeo]

158. I believe the Bible.

You apparently do not. Perhaps we should leave it at that, rather than you attempting to persuade me to your belief.

Your assertion that the Bible is fiction does not make it so.

[LAGC]

160. Well, many millions of Muslims believe the Koran is the absolute God-inspired truth also.

But don't you agree that all those millions of people are dead wrong?

If so many people could be so wrong about one book, what makes you so sure millions of Christians might not be wrong about their preferred book?

[Zebedeo]

162. The existence of false

religions does not tend to disprove the truth of the Bible. In fact, the existence of false religions is discussed at length in the Bible. The Israelites kept falling into false religions such as worshiping the golden calf or otherwise following the religions adhered to by those in the lands in which they lived. God expressed his disapproval of these practices quite clearly.

[LAGC]

163. Why would God allow so many false religions to flourish?

I mean, how is it fair that all these people born in the Middle East that will never hear the "true" word of the Christian Bible?

Don't you think that's kind of mean for God to send all those people to Hell just because they were born in the wrong place?

Why does God hate so many people?

[Zebedeo]

164. Answers to all your questions:

"Why would God allow so many false religions to flourish?"

Because if we were forced into worshipping God, it wouldn't count as worship. Google "free will."

"I mean, how is it fair that all these people born in the Middle East that will never hear the "true" word of the Christian Bible?"

Who says they will never hear it? The Bible is the most widely published, translated and available book of all time. You would have to be in a very remote corner of a jungle somewhere to not have heard of it. Besides, that is exactly why Christian missionaries go all around the world trying to find lost souls.

"Don't you think that's kind of mean for God to send all those people to Hell just because they were born in the wrong place?"

No, because your premise is false. God never sent anyone to Hell for being born in the wrong place. It is sin that separates man from God, not geography.

Why does God hate so many people?

Again, your premise is false. God does not hate mankind. He loves us. He would prefer that no one chose to reject Him. But He leaves the choice up to each of us.

[LAGC]

167. Why don't you come over to the Religion/Theology forum and share your Good News with everyone?

Since you seem to like to spread your faith, I'm sure you'll find many people in need of the Truth you hold so dear.

:evilgrin:

[Zebedeo]

168. You are the one who seems eager to spread your faith

I just responded to the OP and then answered people's questions.

I know how fun R/T is for the fanatical atheists. Sometimes I go there, but after awhile it gets quite boring. It's the same old emotion-based hostility to God based on something that happened in their childhood, etc., etc.

[LAGC]

170. Really? What faith is that, pray tell?

You did more than just answer people's questions, you put out quite a few assertions of your own as well.

I just think your points would receive a much wider audience in the appropriate forum.

But if you're not interested in saving anyone's eternal souls, I guess that's your business, not mine. :)

[Zebedeo]

176. Perhaps this thread

should be moved to R/T. I think your faith seems to be atheistic, but you would know that better than I.

I cannot save anyone else's eternal soul. That is a matter between them and their Maker. But when questioned about God's Word, I am generally inclined to answer.

[LAGC]

178. If you can't save anyone else's soul, why even bother telling people that they need Jesus...

...for salvation? Why not just keep it to yourself?

I mean, why are there so many missionaries unless people think they can change other people's minds on the topic?

If I really believed everyone who didn't believe a certain way was destined for eternal punishment, I'd be trying to convince everyone I could.

Do you not really believe it deep down in your heart?

[MikeH]

180. That was one of my biggest problems when I was a Christian

If I really believed everyone who didn't believe a certain way was destined for eternal punishment, I'd be trying to convince everyone I could.

Even if I might be convinced for myself of my need to "accept Christ", and even if I might accept Jesus Christ and "being saved" for myself (which I did once), I was never able to accept having the terrible thought in the back of my mind that OTHERS are destined to eternal punishment if, for whatever reason, they do not come to "accept Jesus Christ" in this lifetime. And I could never accept the resulting duty or obligation to tell others about Jesus Christ with that thought in the back of my mind and motivated by that concern.

I don't see how one can get any joy or enjoyment out of life, or relate in a normal or healthy way with other people, if one is burdened by the awful thought that somebody else is either "saved" or "unsaved" (and destined to eternal punishment if that person happens to die "unsaved").

And I cannot imagine a grimmer task or duty than that of telling others that they need to "accept Jesus Christ" motivated by that concern. And I cannot think of a more tyrannical demand than the demand to do so.

I also have other reasons for not being a Christian any more (I eventually came to feel that my supposedly having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" had never been of any real help to me in enabling me to better deal with any source of personal pain, frustration, or unhappiness in my life); however I am very definitely glad to be free from any concerns or worries about the eternal destiny of others, based on the belief (from what is said in the Bible, the so-called "Word of God") that if anybody, for whatever reason, does not come to "accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" in this lifetime, then that person is destined to eternal punishment.

[Zebedeo]

182. The Baptists believe

that since you once accepted Christ, you are still saved.

Although I currently attend a Baptist church, I do not agree with this doctrine. I hold the Lutheran view that if you make the decision to reject Christ, even after having accepted Him earlier, you can lose your salvation. The reason is that God does not force anyone to accept His gift. It is left as a matter of free individual choice for each of us.

[MikeH]

184. I expected that you believe what you believe

The Baptists believe that since you once accepted Christ, you are still saved.

Although I currently attend a Baptist church, I do not agree with this doctrine. I hold the Lutheran view that if you make the decision to reject Christ, even after having accepted Him earlier, you can lose your salvation. The reason is that God does not force anyone to accept His gift. It is left as a matter of free individual choice for each of us.

Zeb, to tell the truth I really do not care what one group of Christians believes vs. what another group of Christians believe. And I really do not care at all what you believe. What you say and what you believe impose absolutely no obligation on me.

If the God believed in by Christians and other theists is really real (note to atheists: IF), then our reason, our common sense, and our critical facilities (which include awareness of our feelings, emotions, desires, and needs, as well as our ability to think logically and rationally), are gifts given to us by God. And if this is the case then using these gifts is much more honoring of God than cringing and unquestioning servile fear of God as of a cosmic tyrant.

Using my critical facilities I have very definite problems with regarding the Bible, which was written by fallible human beings, as being any more "infallible" or "inerrant" than any other book on the planet. From what I can tell the Bible at its very best exhibits throughout its pages human fallibility and human prejudice, just like anything else that has ever been written.

I agree it would be nice if there were some book like the Bible or the Koran which could be regarded as the absolute and dependable and true revelation from God. However I think there are very serious problems with regarding either book as such. I think that regarding either the Bible or the Koran as being absolute truth raises many more problems than it solves. (And one obvious problem is that if one of these is the "true" revelation from God, then those who happen to adhere to the other religion or the other revelation from God are in big trouble in the next life, just for making the wrong guess.)

Zeb, I could accept the God you believe in out of fear, and out of the desire to avoid eternal punishment. However I know in my heart (and I consider my "heart" to be among the critical facilities given to me by God, if God is really real) that I would still despise your God if what you believe is really true, and that I could not ever love and joyfully serve your God.

And I think that there is very little difference between a fundamentalist Christian unquestioningly regarding and accepting the Bible as absolute truth, not to be questioned, and a German in the 1930's (before it became fully obvious how evil Hitler was) unquestioningly regarding and accepting whatever Hitler said as being absolute truth, or a Communist in the old Soviet bloc regarding and accepting whatever the Communist Party elites in Moscow said as being absolute truth.

Personal disclosure: I consider myself to be closer to being a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism">Deist than anything else, and just on the believing side of agnostic. Deists believe in God as a supreme being who created the universe, but among other things do not accept any alleged revelation from God, such as the Bible or the Koran, as actually being such. And I am definitely with them about that. While I do think it would nice if we did have a definite revelation from God, I think that there are very serious problems with regarding any of the alleged revelations from God as actually being such.

[Zebedeo]

185. Thank you

for that thoughtful reply. I wish you all the best.

[Zebedeo]

181. I cannot save anyone else's soul

because it takes a freewill decision by each individual person to accept Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to do that.

I cannot make the decision for anyone but myself.

However, I can answer people's questions about Christianity. It seems that many people, particularly on this board, have a misunderstanding about Christianity. A common misconception is that Christians believe they are "holier than thou." That is the opposite of what Christians actually believe.

And people do try to convince everyone they can. But that is not my purpose on this message board. For one, proselytizing is against DU rules. For another, I don't think it would be a productive use of my time, because it would just result in mocking backlash rather than true and genuine self-reflection and humble consideration of God's great gift.

I do really believe it deep down in my heart. I weep for those who are lost. I have lost souls in my own family. I pray that their hearts soften and they let go of their pride and let Jesus into their hearts before it is too late.

[LAGC]

190. No offense, but that's kind of a disgusting attitude to take.

For you to think that you are destined for some paradise while all others who don't believe like you do are damned for all eternity does kind of strike me as "holier than thou", sorry to say...

[14thColony]

78. What in this drawing implies Christianity exactly?

Jesus is a Prophet of God in Islam as well, one of the most powerful ever sent by him in fact, according to scripture. Why would UBL need to be a Christian to embrace a Holy Prophet of God revered by his own faith?

By that rationale Christians can't revere Moses or Abraham because they were Jews, right?

[L0oniX]

85. Dude! Moses and Abraham were not Jews. The tribe of Juda came after them.

[14thColony]

93. Well then...

What, pray tell, were they in modern terms? Hindus? Zoroastrians? Egyptian polytheists? There weren't a whole lot of choices in that region. I would suggest that someone who claims to follow Yaweh/Jehovah, and who follows what later became known as Jewish Rabbinical Law is a Jew in modern terms, regardless of whatever they might have called themselves at the time.

The people we term "Early Christians" (non-Pauline ones) never called themselves that -- they saw themselves as Jews. But in retrospect we lump them in as Christians. How are Moses and Abraham conceptually different as "Pre-Temple Jews"?

[L0oniX]

96. Jews came from the tribe of Juda.

Not only that but the tribe of Benjamin and Levi joined them as one group. Revisionism is obviously rampant. It's all there in the bible.

[Shandris]

100. They were also the remnants of the Ten Tribes who weren't lost in exile.

The term used before then was 'Israelite'. So yes, Abraham and Moses were 'jews', but the term hadn't been coined at the time. So technically, they were 'Israelites' -- as are all Jews born by lineage and not merely a conversion of faith.

It's like Anglo-Saxon. Brits are Anglo-Saxon by virtue of lineage, but a King of Saxony wouldn't be a 'brit' technically.

[liberation]

120. Besides the fact that your analogy is wrong. How would Abraham be an "Israelite" exactly?

Since Israelites were the descendants of Jacob, who was Abraham's grandson. Abraham predated Israelites by at least two generations (and in that time of the bible a generation lasted a very long time apparently).

But then again, the plot of the Bible has more holes than a colander, so using that text as a historical record is an exercise in silliness.

[L0oniX]

127. revise it as you like

[Shandris]

139. I'm not revising anything.

Go talk to Wiki if you don't like it, my bad analogy notwithstanding.

[14thColony]

137. Obviously Hindus then since they couldn't have possibly been Jews. nt

[Zebedeo]

104. Because

with his sinful life and his refusal to accept Christ as his Lord and Savior, bin Laden is in the pit, and will never see Jesus.

Of course Christians can revere Moses and Abraham. What does Christians revering Moses or Abraham have to do with OBL's lack of salvation?

[JuniperLea]

118. You are the one who says OBL had no salvation...

Seems you need to prove that.

[Zebedeo]

126. I did.

In post #66.

[L0oniX]

83. LOL

[JuniperLea]

94. How do you know this? And who said you had the right to judge him?

He could have received forgiveness and been born again just before he was shot for all you know. Seems to me your statement is the wrong one... Jesus taught us to love our enemies... all people are God's children, and all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God... and our (your) righteousness is but filthy rags...

See how that works?

[Zebedeo]

108. Any evidence for that? I thought not.

Be real. You think bin Laden converted to Christianity? That seems, well, highly unlikely. Yes, Jesus taught us to love our enemies, and we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I do not claim any righteousness, other than the robe of righteousness that I wear. It covers my sins.

"I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness." Isaiah 61:2

By all accounts, bin Laden was not a Christian. If you have an iota of evidence otherwise, please link to it.

[JuniperLea]

116. It really doesn't matter...

All people are God's children, and no human being has the right to judge another's worthiness for heaven.

And Isaiah is sooooo Old Testament... Jesus' ways are the newer, kinder, gentler ways.

[Zebedeo]

123. I'm not judging his worthiness for Heaven

I don't think I am "worthy" of Heaven. Far from it. But my sins are paid for by the blood of Christ. He is worthy. Worthy indeed. It is only by His blood that salvation is possible. Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Hebrews 9:22

[MikeH]

128. So heaven is for those who happen to make the correct guess in this lifetime

So those who happen to guess correctly in this life by "accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" in this lifetime can enter into heaven. Even Osama bin Laden would have been let into heaven if, somehow, he had come to "accept Jesus Christ" before he was killed.

However any of Osama's victims, if they happen to die "unsaved", are condemned to hell for all eternity, and do not get another chance.

I am reminded of the quote by Marcus Aurelius:

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

Zeb, if what you believe is true, then your God is not only unjust, but absolutely evil, and absolutely not worthy or deserving of any worship or reverence.

And there is no difference between you or any fundamentalist Christian unquestioningly accepting the Bible as the absolute, infallible "Word of God" (and believing what you believe above as a result), and a German in the 1930's unquestioningly accepting whatever Hitler says as being absolute truth, not to be questioned.

[Zebedeo]

130. "Truth is truth

to the end of reckoning." William Shakespeare, "Measure for Measure", Act 5 scene 1

What is true is true, whether I believe it or proclaim it or not.

And it is not about "guessing correctly." Each of us deserves damnation, not because of how we "guessed," but because of our sins against God. There is no "guessing" involved.

The Bible is the most popular book of all time - by far. It is the most translated, most published, most read, most widely available book in history. While there may be some in a remote corner of the world who might be in a position to complain that they never heard of it, and therefore never had the chance to learn about God's offer of salvation, I am pretty sure God reaches those people in other ways.

But for most who reject God's offer, "guessing" has nothing to do with it. They explicitly and unequivocally reject God - often with venom and vitriol against Him. It can be seen in this thread.

And I never said being "devout" leads to salvation. Rather, it is a simple choice to either accept or reject the greatest gift that has ever been offered: God's gift of salvation to mankind. He doesn't force it on us. Each of us is free to choose whether we will accept it. It is as simple as that.

[liberation]

132. "I am pretty sure God reaches those people in other ways..."

Apparently that omnipotent, omnipresent god of yours hasn't been able to match the capacity for distribution of Coca Cola.

Not very impressive if you ask me... That is why I like Thor better, much more bang for the buck if you ask me.

[coalition_unwilling]

157. Better to reign in hell\Than serve in heaven - n/t

[Zebedeo]

165. That is a lie of Satan.

Hell is a place of torment. It is eternal separation from God and everything good. It will not be a place of fun and games and bawdy parties and smoking dope. Just torment. Forever.

[coalition_unwilling]

171. Oy vey. That is not a 'lie of Satan.' It is a line penned by John Milton

for Satan in "Paradise Lost." Literary character, Zeb, not a real being.

Satan is far and away the most interesting of the supernatural characters in PL, btw. God comes off as a bit boring and pedantic :)

[Zebedeo]

177. That was intentional

on Milton's part. He made the devil somewhat appealing in a way. He "played Devil's advocate" as it were.

The real Satan is a great deceiver, and tempter. He is the father of lies and cannot be trusted. "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" is just the sort of thing the real Satan might be expected to say, because it fits with his character as a smooth-talking deceiver whose goal is to lead as many of mankind away from God and to the pit as possible.

[coalition_unwilling]

179. Not to debate the finer points of Milton with you, but the line

"Better to reign in heaven\Than serve in hell" more aptly illustrates Satan's pride (the cause of his downfall and the chief of the 'Deadly Sins') and not so much his 'smooth-talking deceiver' qualities.

Satan is not lying when he says it, but it does give us insight into Satan's pride, imho.

Throughout the arc of PL, Satan goes from being the most beautiful of the archangels to a hissing snake That is how Milton trims him down to size :)

[coalition_unwilling]

156. Zeb's 'God' is like the 'Gods' in Shakespeare's "King Lear": "Like

flies to wanton boys are we to the Gods. They kill us for their sport." :)

[TransitJohn]

135. It doesn' matter if he was Christian or not, if you are, you're supposed to love and forgive him.

n/t

[Zebedeo]

183. I am supposed to

but I don't. Yeah, I am an imperfect Christian.

[Arugula Latte]

97. Yes, that makes perfect sense.

:rofl:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

111. So did Gandhi and Albert Einstein, minus the murder thing. -nt

[TransitJohn]

134. Your title perfectly described your post.

Good job Zeb.

[fascisthunter]

188. lol... you don't NEED to be christian to be forgiven

that's your own twisted interpretation right there...

[tblue37]

49. No picture--just a red x in a box. nt

[tblue37]

52. Is there someplace online to view this, since I cannot see the pic in your post.

IOW, a link for those of us who cannot see the image?

[Hissyspit]

56. Try this:

http://www.clowncrack.com/2011/05/15/forgiveness/

[tblue37]

61. Wow. Thanks! nt

[Electric Monk]

58. rehosted at imageshack

[PufPuf23]

60. The cartoon is capital A, an Art kalidescope.

Step 1: The People are lied to and deliberately manipulated consistently by governments, medias, special interests, and psycopaths that cannot be satisified and are, unfortunately, institutionalized by croney, family, and/or personal Will. Entitlement in action but not common perception in the USA conciousness.

Truth: Most People want a secure, healthy, and meaningful life; material riches for most have declining utility as far as happiness and peace once security and basic needs in a favorable physical and social environment are met. Think Maslow.

Truth: Divinity is ubiquitous and beyond human understanding; religions are manipulative and violent lies to divide at least and at most excuse human brutality.

Step 2: ?? I will probably be dead first but feel fortunate and glad I never reproduced because of what I expect to occur over the next several generations.

[Mimosa]

62. Long ago noticed Osama's features resemble those of Shroud of Turin Jesus

Has anybody ever done match graphic?

[hatrack]

64. True - I never have seen Osama and the Shroud in the same photo, now that you mention it . . .

Hmmmmm . . .

[Blue-Jay]

65. Why does White Jesus look like "Non" from Superman II?

[Javaman]

71. Because he his Non.

:rofl:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

112. And his surname is "Existent".

[meow mix]

73. lol

:rofl:

fucking hilarious thread... its times like this im glad to be a non-believer =)

[mountainlion55]

76. Organized religion

The deadliest idea in the history of humankind. :smoke:

[14thColony]

79. And massively profitable too!

Just no downside to it really, is there? Unless you're on the receiving end of course...

[liberation]

106. Some downsides do exists though: It fosters gaudy decoration and really bad fashion sense

... and having to rig the smoke and mirrors can get a tar tedious after a while, especially since divine creatures are notoriously camera shy which has been a real issue ever since the invention of the photographic devices.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. Doesn't bug me. But then, I'm not a Christian.

"Jesus" probably didn't have a real, historical existence anyway.

[RebelOne]

115. Doesn't bug me either because I am not a Christian.

I am an atheist and I find it incredibly funny.

[Diclotican]

87. kpete

kpete

This is an provoking, and also thoghtfull picture.. And posible also something Jesus Christ would do if he was alive.. Christ was in many cases a person who forgive and forget in a way no human after him have been able to do.. To paraprase Forgive the sinner, but not the sin..

Thank you Kpte.. You really was given me at least food for thought with this picture..

Diclotican

[kpete]

95. that was my reaction when i found it....

"food for thought"

an open mind - even when it's uncomfortable - can provoke new, original thinking,
or remind you of what you already KNOW but have not beenready to accept.

mho, peace, kpete

[Diclotican]

107. kpete

kpete

It is important with an opeen mind even if it hurts to se, or to learn uncomfortable things. Like this picture of Christ forgive Osama..A man most of the world would hope never to be forgiven for his transgressions... Not an easy task, as Mr Obama himself, would posible not be that gentle with "us" if we was on his hand..

To accept forgiveness for others is no easy task.. Its difficult to try to forgive specially if the transgression is on a huge scale.. But Christ himself pointed up the importance of excactly that. Forgive the sinner, specially if the sins is large...

And it was also a important reminder of what is important.. I have a chapter in the Bible I have dear.. Salm 37, its a great chapter about the importance of forgiveness.. I even have it on my Ipad;)

Diclotican

[L0oniX]

89. WOW ...I posted that pic on Facebook and they took it down.

[dana_b]

92. really? wow - the FB censorship folks in action

I guess they don't like controversy.

[dawg]

99. I'm glad you posted this.

For one thing, it's scripturally accurate.

Jesus taught that we should love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us. What does it mean for us to love our friends - even the hypocrites do that? No, we're supposed to love everyone - even those who mean us harm.

Would Jesus forgive Osama? Of course he would. That's the nature of forgiveness.

Do I hope that Bin Laden sought forgiveness and repented at the last? I want to be that forgiving. I think part of me hopes the guy is in Hell, while the other part of me wishes I were a better man than that.

I am glad that the world is rid of Osama bin Laden, and I think the President did what had to be done.

[liberation]

103. ... and here come some of those loving Christians proving the cartoon's point

LOL.

[xocet]

114. For the Benefit of Any Christians who Have Forgotten the New Testament....

Romans 12:19 (King James Version) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+12:19&version=KJV)

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Matthew 5 (King James Version) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=KJV)

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[TNLib]

122. Most Christians just ignore the teachings of Christ anyway

nt

[JuniperLea]

146. Sadly true...

It really is a wonderful thing when you meet the exception, the Christian who actually behaves in a Christ-like manner. It's a beautiful thing, truly beautiful.

[montanto]

159. Well, if GWB can hide behind Jesus' skirts,

why not OBL?

[upi402]

169. The giggling murderer using the all-time socialist as a prop?

yup

[fascisthunter]

189. leave it to the right wing to twist out of this

Your post perfectly counters the American RW christian mentality... they can't handle what Jesus actually stood for, but they instead embrace the right wing hateful version instead.

Did we create god in our own image.... well the right wingers sure did. The ultimate sin....