Where is the Concern for Strauss-Kahn's Alleged Victim?

[MineralMan]

This whole story raises some interesting questions, as far as I am concerned. Yes, this is an international incident involving an important official, but the focus in the news and on DU, quite frankly, is almost exclusively on Strauss-Kahn, with the alleged victim only a side issue.

I find that alarming. The woman is a low-paid hotel worker. If her account of what happened is factual, which the police and prosecutors seem to think, then this is a very serious matter, indeed. I can only imagine the fear and disgust she must have felt to have this man attempt what he attempted and to make sexual contact with her, as is alleged.

There's considerable concern on DU with Strauss-Kahn and his arrest, with some even claiming he was set up, but I've seen little concern for the alleged victim in this matter. If her account is correct, then she is the victim of a horrible incident, one which has the potential to scar her emotionally for a very long time.

Strauss-Kahn is under arrest and is charged. He will have his day in court. If guilty, he will receive some sort of punishment. If he is guilty, though, the housekeeper in that hotel has already been punished. Let's try not to punish her further here on DU with our assumptions that she is somehow lying about the incident. I'm not sure I can think of a really good reason why she might do that. I can think of many reasons why she might report the incident, though, first among which would be that she was actually sexually assaulted after being locked in a hotel room. I think that would be ample reason to report the incident.

Strauss-Kahn is being processed in our criminal justice system. He will have many opportunities to defend himself. The alleged victim will have few, and she has already been punished severely, if the account she gave is accurate.

[FSogol]

1. K & R. Well said. n/t

[trumad]

2. It's probably inherit distrust for the powers to be...

[brooklynite]

16. ...without a moments thought about the details....

The reason I tend to ignore conspiracy theories is because they inevitably address only the "big picture": e.g. "they" want to get someone who's threatening their money/power/position, and "they" control everything, so it must be easy. Nobody bothers to think through the conspiracy that's being called for: Someone has to make a decision to "get" the person, then come up with a story that will stand scrutiny, find someone willing to present it (in this case a Senegalese maid) and who can keep the story straight when questioned challenged in court, then manufacture evidence (the rape kit) that will stand up to scrutiny in Court, then get the NYC Police Department and the independently elected District Attorney to go along with the con.

And yet, somehow, they're never clever enough to fool a bunch of political bloggers who immediately see through their ruse, even though nobody else does.

[sufrommich]

3. I went down the drain as soon as some found out that he isn't

a right winger.

[LeftishBrit]

34. I think that the point is being missed.. it's not just that HE isn't a right-winger...

but that he has some potentially powerful right-wing enemies. There are many in the IMF who do not want to help the countries in trouble, unless they cut and chop their public services and squeeze and crush their citizens as much as possible. People like that could easily seek to frame a political opponent, or one who simply doesn't want to punish poor people quite as much as they do! It's not so much that I'm particularly concerned about Strauss-Kahn himself, as that I have NO trust in the agenda of his enemies.

I realize that I'm on the other side from my usual one (usually pretty sceptical about all CTs) and I could well be wrong in my suspicions; but it is not the housekeeper (at worst, a manipulated pawn) who raises my suspicions, but the hardliners of the IMF, and possibly also those of French politics.

[seabeyond]

39. he is known for this behavior. france allows this behavior. jokes, laughs....

they are not trying to prosecute him

[Odin2005]

92. France, despite being considered "enlightened" and "progressive" is actually sexist as Hell.

[Odin2005]

90. He is a right-winger, he's the French version of the DINO.

No REAL Socialist would support the IMF's BS.

[karynnj]

112. His political orientation does not matter - his personal actions here do and that is what he will be

tried on.

Whether we like it or not, there are Republicans with exemplary private lives (even ones we dislike like Nixon) and Democrats who fail to have any integrity in their private lives. This case goes even further - the charge is rape.

[seabeyond]

4. exactly it is disgusting. one person suggest justice spend time on real crime. ASSAULT is a REAL

crime

[CTyankee]

5. I'm sympathetic to her. I just hope she can continue to be anonymous to the public

and go on with her life. I hope she has counseling to help her. I admire her dignity and courage. She stepped forward in a timely manner which aided the police in getting the guy before he skipped...

[MineralMan]

24. Yes. Her timely reporting of the incident was key in effecting

the arrest. Had she not immediately reported what allegedly happened, Strauss-Kahn would be in Europe today. Good for her, I say.

[whathehell]

41. She only did one thing wrong...

and that was to NOT chomp down on his old

dick, and thereby take a

"bite" out of crime. B-)

[Blasphemer]

108. I agree

Of course, I don't believe that victims need to hide away in shame but she obviously would not want to be in the middle of an international media firestorm while dealing with something so traumatic. I am quite sympathetic to her but I want her to have her privacy. In this case, I don't have a problem with her odious attacker getting all the headlines. After so many years of his actions being covered up, someone was finally brave enough to speak out so that he may be brought to justice.

[msanthrope]

6. I note the concern for the worker expressed by her comrades.

Oh, right.

[MineralMan]

28. Yes. Sometimes the "worker's party" seems more concerned with

the party's leaders than the rank and file. That definitely seems to be the case here.There are some odd factors in the discussion, it seems to me.

[msanthrope]

43. Well, we've seen it before here, right? Women are acceptable workers/activists until they

challenge male perogatives...

Take the Assange case--how much fury, defamation, and utter bullshit was whipped up against Assange's accusers? None of it proven, but the undertone was 'how dare these women interfere with the 'work' of Assange?'

Same with Polanski--how dare these rape charges interfere with his ability to make art?

It's all fine, well, and good here on the Left. Until you complain against a man.

[seabeyond]

47. yup, yup, and yup. exactly. nt

[msanthrope]

49. Rape Apologia Trifecta. How dare these women, and America

blame these men for where their penises ended up....

[whathehell]

69. You are correct, Misanthrope. n/t

[blondeatlast]

83. Word, mis. nt

[LeftishBrit]

68. Not so much that; more that many of us know that this will result in the total crushing of many poor

people in Europe, and perhaps elsewhere.

Our (totally justified IMO!) HATRED for the right-wingers and cuts-fanatics of the IMF *may* be skewing our judgement in this case - more than any sympathy for Strauss-Kahn himself. As I said, his changing his story makes me more suspicious of him.

[Fumesucker]

7. This is primarily a political forum..

And there are vast political implications to the allegations against Strauss-Kahn, it's unsurprising that those political implications would be front and center in the discussion here.

I agree with you that if the allegations are true, which I think they probably are, then the worker has been punished severely just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[MineralMan]

Yes, it is a political story, in some ways. However,

DU frequently discusses sexual assaults and their victims and perpetrators. I do not believe I have ever seen excuses made for an alleged perpetrator here before. I find this particular story to be treated very differently. That's somewhat alarming to me.

[msanthrope]

18. It's called Rape Apologia for Leftists We Like. Polanski, Assange, DSK--

America is to blame for where these brave men stuck their penises....

[seabeyond]

22. cause we are just such prudes. france is much more accepting of "bad behavior"

so i am told

[MineralMan]

32. Why do I think that France isn't so accepting of sexual assault

as it is of consensual dalliances? The attempt to maneuver this incident into "just a little hanky panky in a hotel room" is pretty egregious, if you ask me.

I would suggest that consensual sexual activity between hotel guests and housekeeping staff is vanishingly rare.

[seabeyond]

36. they are creating him as victim. look how sad he looks. making jokes.... he is a great seducer

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/17/dominique-strauss-kahn-french-media

they have known, always known he was like this. 2008 htey said it was a problem. media knows. peers know. and they excuse

[Codeine]

38. Somebody actually used the phrase "forced seduction" as an excuse.

Completely wacky.

[seabeyond]

40. yes. and people defend this pig. amazing. we are pissed at cop and having slut walks all over u.s

but let this man assault a made, and we excuse.

totally amazing

[blondeatlast]

85. "Forcible seduction"? I think I'm gonna be sick. nt

[seabeyond]

88. people are defending on du. making excuses. dismissing. here is france dude

2007: After he IMF managing director in 2007, Jean Quatremer, a journalist at Libération, wrote: "The only real problem for Strauss-Kahn, is his relation to women. Too forward, he often brushes with harassment. It is a problem known to the media but that nobody talks about (we are in France)."



"Like all great political animals, he has trouble controlling himself." The French press quote President Nicolas Sarkozy as warning Mr Strauss-Kahn before his Washington appointment, saying: "You know, over there they don't joke about this sort of thing. Your life will be passed under a magnifying glass. Avoid taking the lift alone with interns. France cannot permit a scandal."


there is an article in newpaper if you want to read. i am sittin here shaking head. they know this man assaults, and us americans, being such prudes, dont ignore. i am so disgusted.

[Odin2005]

93. Before the Women's Rights movement most seduction was "forced"

As in tricking a young lady into a room and raping her.

[Dreamer Tatum]

54. +1000

[DevonRex]

81. Never was a truer word spoken on DU. +1. Nt

[joshcryer]

27. It's not.

Look closely. It's 5-6 people. Catching the morning lull. Some of us took the bait. If we didn't you wouldn't even see the posts. I hope the mods are paying close attention to what is going on here.

[Fumesucker]

33. The other sexual assaults haven't had a political angle to them..

Of course this story is going to get treated differently.

The Drake lacrosse players case comes to mind, they were tried and convicted here on DU by many. Although I never posted on that particular subject I must admit that I originally thought they were guilty too.

[MineralMan]

48. I am making no assumption of guilt whatever. I've been

very clear about that. But, there were two people involved in the incident itself and the incident is being taken quite seriously by law enforcement. That, to me, warrants concern for the alleged victim in the matter. Does it not seem that way to you?

[Fumesucker]

51. As I said, I think he probably did it as alleged..

But as I also pointed out, I've been wrong before.

Our protestations of concern for the victim are worth exactly nothing, just like everything else that gets said here.

I wish the victim well and hope that she recovers as speedily as possible from the emotional trauma, I know such things can be utterly devastating to one's psyche.

[whathehell]

70. Another way of saying it, then

would be that "our protestations for the victim"

are as GOOD as anything else that gets said here.

If you truly find that "everything else that gets said here"

to be "worthless", why would you keep posting?

[Fumesucker]

71. Habit mostly..

I don't know anyone IRL who is both liberal and interested in politics/current events, I enjoy the discussion but have no illusions about the intrinsic worth of it.

[whathehell]

109. I suspect

that you've taken that position rather recently, lol.

There is certainly "worth" in sharing news and opinions..DU even has an activist corps.

[Fumesucker]

117. I've been online since the days of Atari computers. local BBS's and 300 baud acoustic modems..

Well before the internet was available to ordinary people.

I've had a lot of time to think about it.

Here's an OP I put up on the photography forum here on DU the day after Obama's inauguration, I was hopeful and excited then. Now I'm anything but.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=280&topic_id=49419&mesg_id=49419

[whathehell]

118. That's nice...

The photograph, too.

Sorry, I just don't see how a "lack of excitement"

or claim of helplessness is credibile

in terms of answering the question

"Why doesn't anyone care much about

the rape victime, as opposed to the accused".


:shrug:

[Fumesucker]

119. That wasn't what we were talking about in this subthread..

[blondeatlast]

87. Hear, hear. nt

[MattSh]

126. You think the allegations probably are true??

Based on what? :shrug:

[Skidmore]

8. Some of us have been addressing that issue

here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1117688

It is mind boggling to see the number of people that jumped to assume this guy was being framed and some sort of grand global conspiracy was afoot.

[MineralMan]

58. Thanks for the link. I didn't see that thread.

I'll go read it now.

[Brickbat]

9. I wouldn't say she's paid low -- Sofitel New York is a union hotel and if she is a member of the

bargaining unit she's probably doing OK.

Regardless, there is definitely a class issue here.

[MineralMan]

21. When I said low-paid, I'm referring to hotel housekeeping

workers in general. Union or not, the pay for such jobs is low. When compared to the income of the guests at the NYC Sofitel, the pay is very low indeed. The woman is a worker, in the classic sense. If, in fact, she was sexually assaulted by Strauss-Kahn, then it is doubly obscene, given the differences in their status. Strauss-Kahn is most assuredly not a worker in the same sense that the housekeeper is.

[Brickbat]

37. As I said, there is definitely a class issue.

Union contracts do help ensure that people don't have to scrape by.

[whathehell]

30. You wouldn't say she's paid low?...Umm...Maybe not for a maid

but I doubt she'll be shelling out anything

like 3 grand for a hotel suite anytime soon.

[Brickbat]

35. Yes, "for a maid." A union contract doesn't turn you into a millionaire, but it does make sure that

you are paid fairly.

[whathehell]

67. No shit, Sherlock....I think you were doing better

when you mentioned the rather obvious point

that there is "a class issue".:eyes:

[Brickbat]

79. All right.

[MineralMan]

45. Or a last-minute first-class ticket to France, I'd think.

[Codeine]

10. Everyone knows socialists never rape women.

And women love it when men in their 60s come on to them, especially saggy old Frenchmen! :eyes:

[Deep13]

14. Right, exactly. He probably seduced her with an offer of cheeze and baguettes. nt

[seabeyond]

15. oh, he is hot dontcha know. and women readily fall to their knees to give him bjs

so i am told

[sufrommich]

19. Besides, he was rich enough to pay for it!

:eyes:

[SidDithers]

26. He's not a real socialist...

according to wsws, he's part of France's "big business socialist party" and a member of "France’s main bourgeois “left” party,".

See, they're not even a left party, they're a "left" party.

Sid

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. To be fair, WSWS would have said that about the party long before this

They always criticise socialist parties with which they aren't affiliated as 'bourgeois', 'faux-left', 'fringe' and so on, irrespective of the personal acts of their members. It's a far left tradition.

[SidDithers]

44. Kinda like the People's Front of Judea?...

thanks for the clarification :hi:

Sid

[msanthrope]

46. Not a true Scotsman, then? Och.... n/t

[Deep13]

11. Well, sure, I naturally wish her well.

But violent crimes happen everyday (especially in America). What makes this case different is that the offender not only brutalized a woman, but also jeopardized the global economy as a result. Economic backsliding (if it happens) in some of these countries will mean mass starvation.

I wonder if the necessity of becoming somewhat calloused by violent crime just to survive without going crazy is what causes the whole "violence begets violence thing." In protecting our selves psychologically from the presence of violence, do we not also become less sentitive to future violence?

[seabeyond]

20. he has done it in the past. media and peer group joke about it and label him a great seducer

instead of a rapist.

privilege. why wouldnt he think he is allowed. his culture has allowed and rewarded behavior.

[Deep13]

52. Yup. Of course our society does the same thing...

...when it involves a pro athelete or movie actor. That doesn't excuse anything, of course.

[seabeyond]

56. yes. nt

[whathehell]

72. ..I wish her Justice.

What makes this case "different" is not only that this possible criminal

was in a responsible position regarding the fortunes of the world,

but also that a man of that wealth and power..a "socialist"..would attack

a young, relatively powerless woman in his $3,000 a night hotel room.

It's despicable on its face.

I wouldn't worry too much about the "loss" because

he may be more "sociopath" than "socialist".

[Deep13]

73. Sure, but for the most part, justice is an illusory concept.

Nothing will undo what has happened and nothing will reverse the damage. That's true in most cases. Instead we settle for a system of measured revenge.

Frankly, I think that most politicians are, if not sociopathic, at least pathologically egocentric.

[whathehell]

78. Have you been the victim of a sexual assault?

or any violent crime?

I have..and I'll tell you something, when the perp was

caught and punished it DID help "undo" the damage for me.

You can call it "justice" or "revenge"

In a case such as this, I'll settle for either.

[Deep13]

98. 1. No, but I've prosecuted enough of them.

Rape of children. Horrific, violent rape of barely adults. Plus I've prosecuted the most brutal child abuse cases. Murders too. I've seen the X-rays and the emergency room reports and the photos. And yeah, I've been the victim of violent crime, but it went unpunished because my mother always took my abusive step-father's side over mine. So I'll have to take your word for the "undo the damage" part. I worked mostly in the Court of Appeals, so I had little contact with victims directly.

2. I'm not saying that a controlled revenge system is necessarily bad, although it often is. I just came to the conclusion a long time ago that the only difference between justice and revenge is that revenge is by the individual or clan and justice is by the state. Real justice would make the victim whole which is just not possible in most cases. Society has to be protected from people who kidnap and rape or are habitually violent generally and because of that we will always need some kind of prison system. Beyond that, however, I think all we are doing is taking the evil committed by the defendant and adding the state's own evil in the punishment. I don't know what the solution is, but there has to be a better way of handling it since it can scarcely be any worse.

[whathehell]

107. Why is punishment

simply a matter of "adding the state's own evil in the punishment"...Why is it evil to punish someone

for a violent act against another?.


I'm sorry you were abused as a child and never, it seems, got to know the satisfaction of seeing

the person "pay" for it, at least in some way.

[Deep13]

127. It makes things worse, at least the way we do it.

The offender is sent to prison and incurs the expense of that. There he is subjected to inhuman conditions and violence that are usually worse that what he put the victim through. He goes from being basically a responsible person with a bad temper or other impulse control problem to an unempathetic monster. Maybe he joins a criminal gang. Then we let him out. At this point he is unemployable and turns to crime to support himself. He never pays for his crime because the victim remains uncompensated except maybe for a pittance from the state's victims of crime fund. Instead we all pay for turning him into a much worse criminal than he was before. So while failing to solve anything, our system just makes it all worse.

As I said, society has to be protected from violence, but it is not necessary for us to become monsters ourselves to do that.

I will not gain anything from see my former step father punished. If I did something violent to him, I might feel a momentary satisfaction, but then it would be gone and I'd just as fucked up as I was before. And I would have responded to his monstrosity by becoming a monster myself. I felt like I was becoming one working in the prosecutors office. I learned to hate certain people's guts without ever having met them. I had to keep a bottle of Pepto Bismol handy for child victim sex offense cases. I gained a ton of weight and my blood pressure shot up and for a little while I was actually suicidal.

[SidDithers]

12. ...

:thumbsup:

Sid

[meegbear]

13. It's the way these are reported ...

Strauss-Kahn is the story; she's just a paragraph.

A good friend of mine was telling me that a couple years before I met her that she was assaulted. She wanted her name printed; she wanted people to know. She's wasn't just a 'victim', she was a 'person'.

[leftstreet]

102. +1

That's the smartest observation anyone's made

An unintended consequence of victim anonymity, these reports are always filled with details about the person with wealth, power and privilege.

[theHandpuppet]

17. Thank you for this post!

:applause:

[MineralMan]

53. You're welcome.

In all stories of sexual assault, my first thought is always for the victim. What a horrible thing to have happen to anyone. Guilt in this case is not established. That's up to a jury. So, I have nothing much to say about whether Strauss-Kahn is guilty or innocent. I know, however that a woman reported a sexual assault. That is a very serious matter for any woman, and I know of very few cases where such an assault is reported when it did not happen. I know of many where it is not reported by a victim to avoid further trauma caused by reporting an incident.

Assuming that the sexual assault did occur, which is not proven, I salute this woman for promptly reporting it. She will face additional pain because she reported it. That's certain.

[LeftishBrit]

23. I think it's possible that she is being bribed, threatened or otherwise manipulated

It's also quite possible that she's telling the truth.

I don't think what is said on DU can really 'punish' either Strauss-Kahn or the housekeeper. It is thoughts and opinions.

Even if the housekeeper has been manipulated, I would not regard HER as the culprit; indeed as a victim in another way.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. I think there is implicit concern for her from anyone who thinks the prosecution is justified

which is many DUers - perhaps the majority. But she is, rightly, anonymous, so there's little talk about her as a person - it's about what happened.

As I saw written somewhere, that some media have already said "her neighbours say she's an average person, nothing special to say about her" etc. means those media have already told her neighbours that it's her in this case - precisely the people she's most likely to meet, and who she might want not to be talking about it. Perhaps they'd guess at some stage, but it helps if the media make a vague effort to respect the anonymity rules. And one effect of that is that DU, which is very driven by the amount and tenor of news coverage (like a bunch of 5 year olds with a soccer ball, to be frank), isn't talking about her much.

[seabeyond]

29. a poster challenging the assault wanted to know if she KNOCKED.

sounds to me like lots of jocking on excusing htis man.

oh golly, didnt knock? assault ok

[MineralMan]

42. Housekeepee! Said as they knock and turn the key.

All you have to do to keep the housekeeping staff from entering your room is to set the inside latching mechanism...the chain, or bar, or whatever device is there. I always do that when I'm going to have a shower or dress. I wouldn't want to embarrass the housekeeping worker.

On a side note, my wife, who gets up an hour earlier than I do, always wakes me in time for the 6 AM local news with "Housekeepee!" or "Ruin Sorbees!"

[whathehell]

75. Well, that's very pertinent

don't you know?.:eyes:


Everyone knows that if you fail to "knock"

on the IMF Director's hotel room door

you're just asking to be raped.

What else would you expect?

Un-fucking believable.:crazy:

[seabeyond]

77. totally unbelievable with so many posts i have read excusing this behavior, minimalizing

assault.

i am amazed. and really did not want to waste this time on du, but the falsehood and excuse making was so far out there. it has been since last night. ignored subject to the point of hordes of defenders took over.

on edit... might be a tad exagerated, but felt like it, lol

[whathehell]

82. I get you completely....I have a strong feeling that were the "defenders" themselves rape victims

they might be quicker to "get it".:eyes:

But thanks, and keep on doing what you're doing...You're one

of the sharpest, most articulate spokespersons

for women's rights on this board.

[seabeyond]

84. wow

lmao. for reasons. but thank you

i just read where sarkosy said to this guy, they (u.s.) does not thake this behavior lightly.... that he has oftened bushed against harassment, ect... i will find it. amazing

[whathehell]

100. Yes.

and you're welcome.

As for Sarkosy's comment, I read that somewhere else, but it wasn't attributed to him, as I recall,

but the remark made me think "WTF?...do they take rape "lightly" in France"?...I hope not,

but if they and/or other countries do, I'm glad that we do NOT.

[seabeyond]

86. read this.

2007: After he IMF managing director in 2007, Jean Quatremer, a journalist at Libération, wrote: "The only real problem for Strauss-Kahn, is his relation to women. Too forward, he often brushes with harassment. It is a problem known to the media but that nobody talks about (we are in France)."



"Like all great political animals, he has trouble controlling himself." The French press quote President Nicolas Sarkozy as warning Mr Strauss-Kahn before his Washington appointment, saying: "You know, over there they don't joke about this sort of thing. Your life will be passed under a magnifying glass. Avoid taking the lift alone with interns. France cannot permit a scandal."

[whathehell]

103. Okay...sounds like they do, indeed, have a "different" attitude there..if not regarding rape, than

harassment".

"Like all great political animals, he has trouble controlling himself."...What Crap.

It reminds me of what was said about O.J. when he was in the media spotlight, regarding

his "bad temper"....Sure...but only with women and/or people he could overpower.


I bet Strauss-Khan, like O.J., controls himself just FINE

when he's opposed or "made angry" by men...It's unlikely

he'd have his post if he didn't.

[seabeyond]

105. yup. nt

[Odin2005]

94. Or (like myself) friends of rape victims, for that matter.

:grr:

[woo me with science]

50. "Where is the concern..."? What do you want people to do?

Are you suggesting that it is necessary to presume his guilt, because of the possibility that she is a rape victim?

I see a lot of people saying that we don't know what happened, one way or the other. It is certainly possible he did it. There are also very good reasons someone with resources to do it well might have wanted to frame him. If he wanted to commit rape, to do it in this particular way would be a remarkably stupid and self-destructive act for someone in his position.

The simple fact is that none of us know yet. I would not express outrage just because people are considering possibilities.

What do you want people to do, exactly?

[MineralMan]

55. What do I want people to do?

I'd like them to read my post. That's why I wrote it. What they do beyond that is up to them.

[woo me with science]

60. Well, you suggest that somehow there is not enough "concern" being expressed.

I'm asking what you mean by that. You obviously aren't satisfied with the responses people are giving now.

[MineralMan]

62. My satisfaction with anything is irrelevant.

I made a post. You can do so, as well. My question was very clear. It asked a simple question. Then, in the actual post, I expanded on my reason for the post. I think I was quite clear in what I said. Why do you suppose I want anyone to do anything but think about what I wrote?

Do you have any comments that actually involve the content of my post? I'll be happy to respond to those.

[woo me with science]

65. Oh for pete's sake. nt

[MineralMan]

74. What does Pete have to do with it?

What I wanted people to do is what they're doing. Posting in my thread about the topic of the thread. What does anyone want to do by posting on DU?

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I'm done with this subthread at this point.

[sufrommich]

57. You're on an internet discussion board, nobody is expecting

you to "do" anything.

"There are also very good reasons someone with resources to do it well might have wanted to frame him."

As can be said about any political player regardless of party. The difference is that you rarely see anybody on DU defending the various republican sex scandals or calling into question the "politics" behind them.

[woo me with science]

61. "defending"?

So not presuming guilt is considered "defending" now?

I see. It's all about political affiliation...

[lightningandsnow]

59. Because this website's full of victim-blamers?

These "he's been framed!" threads make me sick. I have two close friends who are sexual assault survivors, and never reported their assaults to the police because they knew they wouldn't be believed. (One was a sex worker, the other had been drinking). I can't imagine how survivors themselves feel reading these threads.

[MineralMan]

63. I don't think DU is full of such people.

I think there is a tendency in this country, though, to do what you suggest. Like you, I find that very alarming, and I can truly understand why sexual abuse victims are reluctant to come forward. It's an ugly cycle, for sure.

[Romulox]

64. Presumption of innocence applies in all criminal cases, without exception.

"Doubting" the accuser (which is the state in all criminal cases,) is our Constitutional duty; unless Due Process is afforded an accused, no conviction may be secured.

A central portion of Due Process is the Presumption of Innocence.

[whathehell]

76. But not on this board, bro...That's the point. n/t

[blondeatlast]

91. Applies only to the justice system. the public can form and hold opinions.

Think George W. Bush.

[Odin2005]

95. Legal protocol has no bearing on public opinion.

Do you think Bushie Boy is innocent of war crimes?

[Romulox]

96. Of course it has "bearing". How else shall we assess a person's "guilt" or "innocence"?

The concepts are, at their foundation, legal ones. It is not possible to speak of "guilt" without referencing the criminal justice system.

"Do you think Bushie Boy is innocent of war crimes?"

Legally, everyone is innocent of every crime until proven otherwise in a court of law. If you mean "morally responsible", then that's another concept entirely. But "guilty" of "crimes"? By definition, the answer is 'no'.

[blondeatlast]

97. That's true, but it does not preclude the American people from holding opinions and even discussing

them on a very active message board. Of course, you don't want to shut such discussion down regarding GWB's guilt or Mr. Strauss-Kahn's, do you?

[Romulox]

99. Right. But without objective standards, there is no basis for assessing these opinions.

"Of course, you don't want to shut such discussion down regarding GWB's guilt or Mr. Strauss-Kahn's, do you?"

This is comical, and frankly, embarrassing to have to read. Understanding the concept of "due process" and having spent some time thinking about the concept of "guilt" doesn't make me an apologist for anyone.

Your remarks remind me of those who claim that a decent attorney will not agree to defend a suspect whom everyone "knows" is guilty. Several times I've asked people who hold this opinion "Just how do you expect the suspect to be convicted, if he isn't afforded his Constitutional right to a competent defense?" I've never received a satisfactory answer.

[blondeatlast]

101. An amusing reply at best. You don't know a damn thing about me but I'll offer this clue:

I work for defense attorneys. I help defend people that I often know are guilty. I don't hold back because of it. If I did, I'd lose a very large chunk of my business.

I think OJ Simpson was as guilty as the day is long, but if he can't get a good defense there is no hope for those who will never do better than a public defender.

But the public is allowed to have their opinion.

Get off your contemptuous smart ass high horse and stop making assumptions.

[Romulox]

104. The Rules of Professional Responsibility actually require that an attorney

not knowingly present testimony that he knows to be perjurious. Therefore, an attorney is not supposed to defend people they "know are guilty"--not the least of which because criminal "guilt" is determined by a legal process, not individual opinion. This really is a somewhat complicated subject, for this reason and others...

"Get off your contemptuous smart ass high horse and stop making assumptions about people you know nothing about."

I have no idea what your personal biography has to do with this discussion. This is not a personal issue, and nobody is denying you the right to say what you like. Likewise, I'll offer my gloss on it.

One way or another, the concept of Presumption of Innocence isn't a personal attack on you. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

106. assumptions? surely poster is not making assumptions. knowing better

assumptions are NOT allowed

[Romulox]

110. Time to pile on the guy who says people have a right to presume an accused innocent?

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

111. women will fall on their knees to give this man blow jobs.....

he doesnt need to force a woman

afte comments like these and many differently absurd comments

not a lot of patients keeping nouth shut right now.

[Romulox]

113. Those aren't comments made by me. Nor are they about the Presumption of Innocence. nt

[seabeyond]

116. no. absolutely not. they were not made by you. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. They weren't made by anyone (nt)

[seabeyond]

123. yu huh. nt

[LeftishBrit]

66. Well, I'm more suspicious of Strauss-Kahn, since he apparently changed his story to 'she consented'

Changing the story like this makes it more dodgy.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

114. Leaving his wallet and cell phone seems a bit suspicious to me. He was in a real hurry to leave.

[DevonRex]

80. Her life is changed. Forever. She will never be what she was or

what she would have been. That is a fact. There is no way around it. She can be other things, and some may be good. But she will never be what she was before.

The word scarred is inadequate but it's the best we've got.

[Odin2005]

89. I'm pissed off by the posters that are ASSUMING that she is part of some plot against DSK.

As far as I'm concerned those posters are no better than any other jerk that calls rape victims liars.

[Taverner]

115. You got me. And once again, we agree on something

Will wonders never cease?

[MineralMan]

120. As I have said before, we agree far more often than you think.

Truly.

What I write is often misinterpreted by people who have already decided who I am and what I stand for. Almost universally, they are incorrect.

[Taverner]

121. My assessment (FWIW) is that you don't resort to blanket statements, and instead...

Use this thing called "nuance" and judge each issue on a case by case basis...

[MineralMan]

124. Well, that's my normal approach, yes.

I sometimes slip from that, though. Life is full of nuance. I embrace it. There seem to me to be very few absolutes, and none in politics, as far as I can tell.

[JoeyT]

125. +1

I wonder if Limbaugh or Bush were the accused if they'd garner this level of sympathy?

To hear some people tell it asking them to stop insisting the victim was a slut that asked to be raped is exactly the same thing as deciding Strauss-Kahn is guilty.