"Jane, you ignorant slut"

[Old and In the Way]

Weekend News NBC's Saturday Night Live, circa 1976/ One of Dan Ackroyd's most memorable lines in his skit with Jane Curtain.

Funny stuff and I don't recall NBC suspending Dan for such an over-the-top remark. I don't remember anyone I knew being shocked or pissed or feeling like this was an outrageous sexist comment.

Yes, I know SNL was comedy and Ed's show is politics. A case can be made that they are both entertainment. My only point is that it's a word that NBC had no problem airing multiple times over the years that Ackroyd played the role as Weekend anchor. Perhaps had Ed said, "Laura, you ignorant slut" with a smile , it would have been acceptable?

Or maybe, it's not really about a word, but an opportunity to get the most pro-labor, pro-jobs commentator on MSNBC off his soapbox.

[Brickbat]

1. Between 1976 and 2011, many people realized that women generally don't like being called sluts.

So, you know, that might have something to do with it.

[Johonny]

8. insults are suppose to be insulting

before 1976 they didn't like it either. The only difference today and then was people called each other a slut in private and pretended they didn't in the media. It was a kinder faker nation back then.

[Hannah Bell]

35. no, they don't. they don't like being called "stupid" either. or "ugly" or "fat"

or "inept" or lots of things.

most people don't like being called sexually promiscuous in a derogatory way. most people don't like being called names or made fun of. probably *all* people don't like it. probably *all* people don't like remarks intended to hurt and denigrate.

please make the case that "slut" is a special category of insult.

i don't see it.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. It carries tired baggage; i.e. women aren't supposed to be sexually promiscuous.

That's why women are called 'sluts' but it's not traditionally used on men.

I'm not one to scream "sexism" at the drop of a hat, but here I think it's a legitimate criticism, maybe even moreso than the word "bitch", which has essentially equivalent gender-neutral ("shithead", "asshole") or male-specific ("dick", "prick") counterparts.

[Hannah Bell]

49. lol. that shows how much you know about "tradition".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1176323&mesg_id=1176557

[Warren DeMontague]

69. I'm not talking about the etymology of the word, I'm talking about what it implies now.

However, that's definitely an interesting piece of history you've got there.

[bobbolink]

63. There was even some recognition that there was a connection between sexual insults towards

women, and physical violence towards women.

But, we've come such a long way since then. :eyes:

[MrScorpio]

2. I hate to be the one to break this to you...

But, it's not 1976 anymore.

What Ed did was in poor form… He just needs to take his lumps and more on.

Our side should be better than their side.

[MrMickeysMom]

17. Our side IS better than their side...

That's why we should learn to swing back to the kind of liberals who had more tolerance for the politically incorrect comment, such as, "Jane, you ignorant slut!" on SNL, or any line out of a Mel Brooks movie (e.g., "Blazing Saddles")

[LynneSin]

65. Thank you very much

:pals:

[AsahinaKimi]

3. The times, they are a changin....

eom.

[TorchTheWitch]

16. obviously not anywhere near fast enough

Afterall, here we are on a Dem forum full of people having no problem at all with gender biased slurs when they'd blow a gasket if it were racist, ageist, etc.

[AsahinaKimi]

22. I totally agree...

My comment was for the 1970s based ideas.. Things were different then. Today people should know better, or one would think. Sometimes I wonder...

[Hannah Bell]

4. an opportunity to get the most pro-labor, pro-jobs commentator on MSNBC off

+100.


purges going on everywhere.

[glinda]

13. Perfect opportunity to can him for their purposes. Ed made a big boo boo.

[Bunny]

46. I'm sure it's a conspiracy, and poor Ed was set up.

I'm guessing the dark forces of capitalism are behind this, but we should wait for all the facts to come out.

[RandomKoolzip]

5. Completely different contexts, intents, and eras.

[elleng]

20. ...

:thumbsup:

[fishwax]

32. .

:thumbsup:

[Johonny]

6. what was then a parody

now passes as actual news. Well talk radio noise.

[True Earthling]

7. One is pretend... the other one isn't.

Big difference.

[Hannah Bell]

12. ingraham is about as pretend as they come. jane curtin was a better newswoman.

[EFerrari]

9. Nothing says "liberal" like sexist slurs.

[Brickbat]

10. Right in one.

[Liquorice]

14. I've found that many liberals are surprisingly sexist. nt

[Hannah Bell]

15. you prefer ingraham's racist slurs? i don't recall her getting called on the carpet

& made to do the perp walk.

it's theatre, and dems are always scripted as the goat.

[EFerrari]

25. You want to try to outdo conservatives for prepubescent name calling?

That would be a full time occupation.

[Hannah Bell]

33. nah, it's just something stupid to argue about. the scripted shows are stupid

and the scripted controversy is stupid too but thinking about the whys and wherefores of insults is kind of interesting.

but it's true, righties get a pass & dems get the ax. that's kind of interesting.

i have never really cared much about speech so much as actual power relations. to my mind, an insult is an insult & it's just wind; the power relations are what matters. i don't see women as a disempowered class generally so i don't care about sexist speech much; in fact, i think the concept is sexist.

but that's just me; as you know, i'm a weirdo.

[EFerrari]

58. Unless it's posted to DU, I wouldn't know what Ed says.

:)

[Hannah Bell]

84. me either. :>)

[polmaven]

74. That is not the standard

to which I want to sink. I don't know about you, but we are above that type of name calling. And, btw, she certainly would be called on the carpet HERE. Because the conservatives don't do so is not up to us.

[seabeyond]

82. right hannah. that is what everyone is saying. i want racist slurs.... because i dont want sexist

slurs

:sarcasm:

[Hannah Bell]

85. was i talking to you?

[seabeyond]

86. lol. that is cute. nt

[Hannah Bell]

87. not cute. you referenced yourself as though i asked you the question.

i didn't.

i was having a nice conversation with eferrari, who knows better than to take spectacle completely literally. and who doesn't treat me as a demon when i am anything other than completely politically correct.

nothing to do with you.

[seabeyond]

88. uh... discussion board. and

ah hannah, not a demon. never that. though i do wonder why you sit where you do on some issues.

[Old and In the Way]

26. Well, I've been called a prick before...but I never felt victimized.

I'll have to tell my liberal wife to knock off the sexist slurs.

[Matariki]

28. And 'prick' has never been used as a word to systematically shame men.

[provis99]

29. what an absolutely sexist mindframe you have.

How ironic.

[Matariki]

30. I don't believe you.

I think you are just argumentative. If you really don't understand what I said, ask the women on this forum, or in your life, to explain it to you.

[Hannah Bell]

34. and there was a time when there was some serious social sanction behind that shaming.

but now, not so much, imo.

how is c--t worse than p----k?

how is bitch worse than bastard?

if someone calls me a "s--t" what do i care -- unless there is a social sanction larger than the one-to-one personal insult?

i don't see it.

on children -- i'm more concerned with the whole "culture of insult" than any particular insults. imo we're pretty hypocritical about it. we pretend to be all outraged about *particular* insults, but insulting and demeaning others is pretty deeply imbedded in public culture -- in politics, on tv shows, in our so-called "comedy" -- more destructive to children than any particular insult, imo. it teaches something subconsciously that isn't very nice.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. it is an exact equivalent to calling a woman a c*t, which I cannot

even spell out here because the entire board gets "the vapors".*




*sexist connotations absolutely intentional.

IBTD

[EFerrari]

57. It isn't though. Men as a group have never been oppressed

by way of their sexuality, sorry.

[EFerrari]

56. Unclear on the concept. The sexism used on women isn't comparable

to what you poor privileged men suffer.

[DeSwiss]

11. K&R n/t

[elleng]

18. NOT about getting Ed off his soapbox.

Its an offensive term, and SNL was (is?) unique in the permission we have given it.

[Hannah Bell]

38. huh?

[TheKentuckian]

19. Since Weekend News was more news than we get now, I'll rec.

Also, motherfuck em, we should have went to the mattresses long ago.

[underseasurveyor]

21. SNL is comedy / satire

But you know a movie like Blazing Saddles, if made today, would never see a theater.
A brilliant movie and one of my all time favorites.

What Ed said was not comedic and he made it a gendered personal attack. As much as I dislike Ingram, that was uncalled for.

[Matariki]

23. It was funny because it was parody of ignorant sexism.

As opposed to *actual* ignorant sexism. Do you really need that explained?

[ScreamingMeemie]

24. +eleventy billion.

[itsrobert]

43. Correct. Dan Ackroyd was playing a buffoon as biting satire

of the old boys news club compared to the women just trying to break the glass ceiling.

[eShirl]

51. EXACTLY thank you

[SoCalDem]

27. Times were different back then.. Most of what was on tv then

could never make it on air now.

Ed's been neutered now, and will parse his words from now on.

He'll either end up quitting or be resigned to follow Ari Fleischer's advice.

[Dreamer Tatum]

31. So if LI gave it right back, like Jane Curtin did...

...yeah, I'm sure you'd be calling for LI's head.

False and silly comparison.

[wickerwoman]

36. It was a joke which hinged on the inappropriateness of calling her a slut

in the context of a comedy show.

You're right it's not about the word. It's about the context.

Ed didn't move on in the next scene to do a skit with Laura with cones on their heads. That's the crucial difference.

[Hannah Bell]

39. explain the "context" which made laura ingraham's writing about mrs. obama eating ribs

for every meal get a pass.

they can dish it out but they can't take it.

what i see is a lot of dems calling for the head of one of the only 2 or 3 putatively liberal voices on tv, while pubs get a pass, always.

that is the context in which i don't care what he called laura ingraham.

[wickerwoman]

40. Did calling her a slut solve the problem?

No. It just ceded the moral high ground and made it easier for Republicans to justify even worse shit because "Democrats do it too."

[Matt_in_STL]

71. Outside of the main topic, but...

Since when do Republicans justify or attempt to justify anything they do? Republicans don't give a shit about what you or I think so there is no need to justify it.

[polmaven]

75. So does that mean

it is OK to sink to their level? Personally, I prefer the high ground.

[Matt_in_STL]

78. It doesn't mean that at all

It means that I don't care if it gives Republicans a way to justify anything they say for two reasons:

1. Republicans don't care if you think they have justification or not. They will call you names, beat you down, and tell obvious lies without blinking. They just don't care.

2. As I probably should have added to my first post, because of #1, we need to be accountable to ourselves and not be concerned with the blast of hot air from the Republican side. Calling someone a slut is not a great idea at all, but any concern I have is not due to Republican feedback.

[lonestarnot]

37. June 20th, bet Keith could find a spot for him. Afterall, Countdown is his show.

But now Keith may not want him after the groveling putridness tonight from the TV box. :puke: He deballed himself right there in front of us. :7

[Old and In the Way]

41. That bothered me more than the calling LI a slut.

Yes, bad form and a quick 30 second "hey sorry, I meant to say "slug", slip of the tongue" would have been a reasonable excuse, but he was quite emotional about it. Don't know if he's worried about being fired...you know he really loves this gig or if there's something else we're not privvy too. You know Ed believes in the righteousness of his opinions...he's 'all in' with what he sees as the battle for the soul of this country. Personally, I think Comcast is gunning for him and they want the biggest pro-labor, pro-jobs, pro-single payer booster on broadcast TV silenced. Could be the apology was written for him and he was told to read it verbatim or seek employment elsewhere.

[polmaven]

76. I saw it as just the opposite.

I saw his apology as being a very adult thing to do, and he shwed strength and morality in what he said.

[SmileyRose]

42. So MSNBC is a comedy channel not a news channel?

Actually I gotta agree with you there.

I like Ed, I really do. But if he wants to go all 70's humor on us then he's working out his comedy, not his journalism.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. At best, it was an extremely poor word choice. Ed should've known better.

There are 50 Bajillion, better, smarter, nastier ways you could have insulted that... idiot... than with the word "slut".

For one, I don't know why Laura Ingraham has been allowed to skate by on that bullshit book she wrote; You know, the one telling celebrities to "shut up and sing". The premise being that, say, Michael Stipe or Bruce Springsteen might make great music, but they're not entitled to express their (liberal) political views because "that's not their field".

... But what the fuck are Rush, and Savage, and Coulter, and Laura and the rest of them? Do they even HAVE real jobs? No. ALL they do is fucking bloviate about politics, and they can't even break it up with a nice rendition of "Driver 8" or "Born To Run".

So what ED should have said was something like, "Laura, you should shut up and... wait, you can't sing either, so maybe just shut up"


Now, back to the topic at hand: I'm not hyper-politically correct, not even close. But that particular word carries a lot of baggage that, frankly, makes Ed look bad- not her.

I mean, aside from the legitimate objections the target demographic; pretty invariably women; raise, whereby there's a certain legitimiacy to the idea that if the group in general doesn't like the word, there's probably something wrong with using the word, think about this:

the idea behind 'slut' is 'sexually promiscuous woman'- so by using 'slut' as an insult, the implication carried with it is a whole host of regressive, bullshit, old-timey ideas where women weren't supposed to have sex, women weren't supposed to like sex.. Now, Ed's an older dude, but he should know better. There's nothing wrong with sex, there's nothing wrong with women, and there's nothing wrong with women who like sex.

[Motown_Johnny]

47. It was an outrageous sexist comment, that is why it has shock value and

would cause laughter


It was obvious that the comment was unacceptable and the very idea of a person in the media using that word/phrase was laughable.

[Hannah Bell]

50. except that glenn beck used it before schultz.

[kentuck]

48. It was part of commn lexicon in the 70's..

People would use it in conversation. I guess times have changed?

[Blue_Tires]

52. fwiw, here is one of the more famous clips...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ms4s_saturday-night-live-point-counterpo_fun

[Mass]

54. pro-labor. but certainly sexist. It is shocking to see people here try to defend him.

I dont think he should be fired, but I would expect some consequences.

[HopeHoops]

55. I was watching on the one night when he followed it with "Who DID you sleep with to get this job?"

[bobbolink]

59. Physical violence against women was also more tolerated in the 70s. I guess that makes it fine for

now, too.

How easy it is to forget what every person who knows domestic violence knows.. the verbal sexual assaults are followed by physical sexual assaults.

But I suppose that will soon be back to being acceptable, also. "She deserved it."

[Le Taz Hot]

60. HUGE difference.

The skit to which you are referring was satire on a segment of "60 Minutes" entitled, "Point/Counterpont" in which James Kirkpatrick argued the conservative side of an issue and Jane Alexander argued the liberal side.

"Jane, you ignorant slut! You only smoke marijuana as a prelude to having sex with strange men!"

What can I say, it was funny in 1975. Perhaps it had something to do with the Buddha Bud that was going around at the time, but still . . . :shrug:

[lapislzi]

61. It was funny precisely BECAUSE he called her a slut

Because the remark is so stupid, so off topic, such a non sequitir that it completely invalidates the speaker and his point.

There are polite ways to disagree with someone without throwing up straw sluts.

[joeybee12]

62. Hmmm..using the term on a news show as opposed to a comedy skit...

BIG difference.

[Fuzz]

64. I remember a post where I said it as a joke, and it was deleted by the mods.

I found that strange.

[pipi_k]

66. Does the fact that

Archie Bunker used a lot of racial and sexual epithets in "All In The Family" and people laughed at them make those epithets OK today?

?

[rustydog]

67. Comparing Apples to oranges?!!! You have got to be kidding me

Give it up, Even Ed Schultz says he did wrong and apologized for his ignorant rant. Please stop trying to support a hurtful slur against a woman by using a COMEDY routine as your defense of what Ed agrees is indefensible.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

68. Let us not forget the movie "Tootsie"

[snooper2]

70. Just start using Spanish...Laura is a stupid pendejo

:P

[Le Taz Hot]

79. Wouldn't that be pendeja?

:P: ;-)

[snooper2]

80. you made me look that one up :)

This is a good one from Urban Dictionary

pendeja 37 up, 22 down
buy pendeja mugs, tshirts and magnetsA Spanish slang term meaning 'dumbass' or 'asshole' basically, its describing Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga and even Justin Bieber. ;)
Person 1: Oye, its Miley Cyrus!

[Matt_in_STL]

72. I hope I don't lose my ability to be considered liberal

I never even think of slut as anything gender related. I have heard it used in coversations referring to both men and women, but have only used it personally in reference to guy friends based on specific circumstances. My gay male friends tend to use it more than anyone I know, mostly when talking about each other, always jokingly. I really wouldn't have even thought of a gender specific offense to the word if I hadn't read it here.

With that said, it probably isn't a word that is necessary in the political arena. Ed will serve his suspension but, unfortunately for Ed, it takes one mistake to wipe out 1000 good things you have done.

[JHB]

73. Please note that Dan was playing the part of a conservative jackass

Those skits were done in the infancy of what's become a standard media formula: the liberal makes an argument, and the conservative asshole ignores it and plays to the wingnuts in the audience. It was parodying and mocking a conservative media attitude which eventually took over.

Just because Dan Ackroyd spoke it in that context doesn't make it ok elsewhere.

Does Al Franken talk like that? He was one of the people writing those skits.

[yawnmaster]

83. "a pompous ass" at that. eom

[LanternWaste]

77. Setting aside for one moment the relevant and necessary distinction between casual conversation and

Setting aside for one moment the relevant and necessary distinction between casual conversation and satire (Intent v. Content), I can only imagine that anyone with even the smallest of brains may allow themselves to perceive a difference between calling someone a name, and comedy *specifically designed* to point to inherent flaws and hypocrisies in our social mores.

"Or maybe, it's not really about a word..." And maybe the planet of Jupiter has a night job pole-dancing at the Kitty Kay Klub to bring in extra cash... :shrug:




Word Association Interview (SNL, Season 1, Episode 7, starring Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor)
Interviewer: < casually > "Negro".

Mr. Wilson: "Whitey".

Interviewer: "Tarbaby".

Mr. Wilson: < silent, sure he didn't hear what he thinks he heard > What'd you say?

Interviewer: < repeating > "Tarbaby".

Mr. Wilson: "Ofay".

Interviewer: "Colored".

Mr. Wilson: "Redneck".

Interviewer: "Junglebunny".

Mr. Wilson: < starting to get angry > "Peckerwood!"

Interviewer: "Burrhead".

Mr. Wilson: < defensive > "Cracker!"

Interviewer: < aggressive > "Spearchucker".

Mr. Wilson: "White trash!"

Interviewer: "Jungle Bunny!"

Mr. Wilson: < upset > "Honky!"

Interviewer: "Spade!

Mr. Wilson: < really upset > "Honky Honky!"

Interviewer: < relentless > "Nigger!"

Mr. Wilson: < immediate > "Dead honky!" < face starts to flinch >

Interviewer: < quickly wraps the interview up > Okay, Mr. Wilson, I think you're qualified for this job. How about a starting salary of $5,000?

[Shireling]

81. That comment on Saturday Night Live

was so absurd that it was supposed to be, AND WAS, very funny. It was a caricature of a person who would have the rude balls to say such a thing. In other words, not approval, but disapproval, in a funny way fitting for SNL. It was making fun of sexism.

Seeing that comment as anything else, taking it seriously, is totally missing the point. Just as the humor in the movie "Blazing Saddles" was making fun of racism, and the Masterpiece by Mark Twain, "Huckleberry Finn", used the "N" word as a way to show the horrors of slavery during that time.

These things need to be seen in that context.

I haven't kept up with what Ed is being accused of. That may be a totally different situation all together.