Is raising a “gender-neutral” child a fantasy?

[onpatrol98]

Is raising a “gender-neutral” child a fantasy?
By Janice D’Arcy

Suddenly an old question is new again. Can a child be raised “gender-neutral?”

The consensus seems to be “no,” if you trust the reaction to a Canadian couple who have gone public with their attempt to raise their children without the burden of gender.

Kathy Witterick and David Stocker are raising their two sons, five-year-old Jazz and 2-year-old Kio and their as-of-yet-publicly-unidentified-gender infant in a gender-free bubble.

Their story was recounted in the Toronto Star this past weekend. It is spreading fast and the reaction is coming in forcefully negative.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-parenting/post/is-raising-a-gender-neutral-child-a-fantasy/2011/05/25/AGr1mPBH_blog.html

[provis99]

1. why is gender bad, or a burden?

it is discrimination which is a problem, not biological fact.

[Warpy]

2. Not if the kid is intersex

which means Kleinfelter's syndrome, having an XXY makeup.

However, my friends who tried it in the 70s saw their little girls cuddling the Tonka truck in a blankie and the little boys holding Barbie by her feet and pointing her and yelling "Bang!"

Some of this stuff looks pretty hard wired.

[xchrom]

7. Lgbtiq people think of intersex folk as a gender.

Just not commonly understood.

We're hoping that changes.

[Warpy]

11. I know one online

and we often complain about inadequate pronouns, "it" assuming the person is not alive or is less than human. S/he and shim kind of fit but get clumsy after a while.

[REP]

30. Some intersex people single-gender identify; some don't; let's let the individual decide

[Drahthaardogs]

26. That is not true.

My first cousin has Kleinfelters and he is actually XXXXY, a very rare case. Males are still males, although mental retardation and other physical ailments are present. Females with XXX are still females. They are not intersex, just have diminished secondary sexual features.

[RandySF]

3. If you are talking occupations, sure

But it also requires a society that does the same. Other than that, one can only go so far before biology kicks in.

[RevStPatrick]

4. Yes.

Yes it is.

[TheKentuckian]

5. I'm not clear on the desire to do so. What is wrong with gender?

It shouldn't be used to set roles or occupations but gender is part of being a person and it isn't some imaginary issue like race.

[bemildred]

6. The proper thing is to allow the child to grow in its own way, whatever that may be.

The heavy hand of social convention is the problem.

[Egnever]

8. Yes I believe it is

We tried very hard to not push gender specific behaviors on our first child and despite that he still gravitated to "boy" things. Trucks and dirt and farts and all the typical "male" behaviors just appeared.

Was really quite an interesting thing to witness, We just had a girl so it will be interesting to see what she picks up on without our encouragement.

[surrealAmerican]

21. You may well discover that a second child ...

... is likely to be interested in anything the first child is, regardless of gender.

It's usually a good idea to encourage that, as it will help your children bond with one another.

[Egnever]

50. She is actually my third

but the middle brother definitely trends to anything the oldest is doing. It will be interesting to see how our first female fits into that dynamic. Although I can see already it will be very difficult to keep gender nutral with the girl. Something about baby girls seems to drive women batty :P

[moc]

54. Didn't happen with mine. #1 is a girl; #2 is a boy. Had all the girl toys and stuff

when #2 came along. He never played with *any* of it. Ever. If he pushed one of her doll strollers (rarely), it was with the TV remote control in it.

He adores his big sister, practically idolizes her, in fact. But, he definitely came pre-wired for gravitating to all the typical boy toys.

[surrealAmerican]

56. Mine were the same sequence ...

... but my son was completely fascinated with anything his sister was doing or any toy she had.

[tularetom]

9. Not if you're Ken and Barbie I guess (or GI Joe for that matter)

Most of the rest of us actually have genitals.

Why would anyone WANT to raise a "gender neutral" child?

[sendero]

10. People who like to pretend.....

... that men and women are the same except for their genitalia are truly morons.

[Codeine]

12. I don't know why you'd want to.

Men and women, boys and girl -- we're different, and it's awesome.

[etherealtruth]

13. vive la différence n/t

[blondeatlast]

51. Indeed. nt

[seabeyond]

14. i have decided i raised my boys as people. my parents did the same for me

i have just recently come to this revelation. i so am not a part of the conditioned gendered behaviors. still all female. still feminine. but i do not play the role society has provided for me. with boys at 16 and 13 i see that they dont with their gender. and thinking about it, i see that it is because i have never treated them as a gender. i treat them as people. and that is how they view life. that is not taking away their masculinity. it is all theirs. and very much who they are.

[Wait Wut]

15. Girls are girls, boys are boys (except in extremely rare instances).

It's biology. Whether the little girl likes boy things (as I did) or the little boy likes girl things shouldn't matter. These parents are preparing their children for some really hard falls, as far as I'm concerned. Instead of trying to force gender neutrality, they should teach their sons to be decent human beings and not make gender such a huge issue.

If they're trying to enforce gender equality, this is not the way to do it. These little boys will never have cramps, PMS or give birth. Teach them to respect and understand these things and why it is important for them to see their female friends as equals, but different.

I hate it when people use children to make their own damned statements. I had a friend, years ago, that did this to her boys. It turned out to be a horrible situation for all involved.

[yawnmaster]

31. And try to teach both the boys and girls an awareness of the pressures of society to be silo'ed into

male and female roles (that do not need to be). Teach them to be critical of advertisements.
Give them both a sense of self security, as best you can.

[Wait Wut]

62. Yep.

I was "lucky" enough to be raised mostly by my older brother and sister (8 and 10 years older, respectively). My sister bought me Barbies and taught me how to make paper flowers. My brother bought me a Cubs jacket (when I was 4) and taught me how to play baseball and let me play with his Matchbox cars. I never felt pressured to be a girly girl (except by my father, who had zero influence), but managed to combine the differences. Today, 40 sumthin' years later, I still love Matchbox cars (the husband bought me a '70 Challenger for Mom's day...my dream car) and American muscle, but love the few opportunities I have to "clean up". I still suck at baseball, though I am still a Cubs fan. My dirty secret is a love of "What not to Wear".

I cringe every time I see a mother force her daughter into the "Barbie" mentality. When any little girl says their favorite color is pink, I wonder if it truly is or is that the mother's influence. Hey, my (now Marine) son's favorite color was pink when he was little. I know damned well that it wasn't my idea. If you ask him about it today, he is far from ashamed to admit it. He was still very much a boy. I had the hospital bills from x-rays, burns and stitches to prove it. Not my idea, either.

Somewhere in the comments here, two people mentioned "hard wiring". I agree. Embracing our differences and seeing the beauty and benefit of those differences is what's needed. Not gender neutrality.

And, I will be surrounded my way too much testosterone this weekend. The step-son is coming to visit with my 3 step-grandsons. I bought Matchbox cars and plan to play with them. They came with an abominable snowman and a little snowmobile on a trailer!!! Seriously, I squealed in the store when I saw them.

[mikehiggins]

16. A fantasy and a stupid one

boys will be boys, as Queen sang, and that's good enough for me.

If a baby develops with testes or ovaries is a matter of chance. How that affects their personal and social identity is not. Sure I don't have learned articles or vast surveys to back up that bald statement but I have fathered two children and the only "gender specific" contribution I made to their personas was when I warned my daughter to be careful of boys.Warned my son to watch out for military recruiters. All the rest was their own doing.

[JohnnyLib2]

17. Many of us had enough trouble explaining the Santa fantasy.....

this seems like a road full of landmines to me.

[qazplm]

18. the problem is not gender

nor is it differences, both of those are in the vast majority of cases biological fact.

The problem is treating differences as better or worse.

so why in the world would you try and treat someone as what they aren't, which is gender-neutral instead of instead working to instill the values that feminine and masculine, boys and girls have differences in some ways, but that those differences aren't universal, nor are they indications of inferiority or superiority, nor are they for the most part all that important in the grand scheme of things like what job someone can do, how smart they are, or how much they should be respected or how they should be treated.

[Cid_B]

19. 1) Yes it is 2) Bad idea

Like it's a bad thing.. sheesh...

[REP]

20. John Money ruined a lot of lives trying to prove it could be done

See the case of David Reimer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[onpatrol98]

23. horribly sad case...

What a horribly sad case!!!

[REP]

25. Money's ideas on infants being 'tabula rasa" when it comes to gender identity are incredibly harmful

What is still being done to intersexed infants is terrible and cruel.

[tammywammy]

28. That's EXACTLY what I was thinking about.

Nature vs nurture - I thought this had already been proven, nature wins, and poor David was a casualty of trying to force something.

I wonder will these parents be upset if their child starts developing 'typical' boy or girl traits? A girl insisting on 'girly' things and a boy insisting on trucks vs dolls.

[REP]

37. David Reimer was brave enough to tell his story; there are other victims

Mostly people born with ambiguous genitalia (intersexed) or males whose penises were destroyed, as Reimer's was.

Not forcing kids into old gender roles is great - girls can help with yatdwork, boys can help with dinner, everyone gets an Erector set (coolest toy EVER) or a bead loom (also cool), that's fine. Great, even. Dressing babies in green, red, purple - who cares. The kids will still feel like girls and boys.

[tammywammy]

39. 'As Nature Made Him' was an excellent book.

It was heart breaking to learn a few years after I read it that David committed suicide. And he's only one of so many children that are forced into a 'nurture' environment. Surgery on intersexed children should really be discouraged. Let the child grow up and let the parent know how they feel.

[REP]

43. I agree but go one step further: it should be illegal

Only surgery that is truly needed to allow safe and painless elimination of waste is justified until that person decides otherwise.

I wish I could remember the name of the excellent documentary I saw on this. In fact, it's a little embarrassing that I can't; it moved me from being curious to getting out my soapbox on the issue.

[tammywammy]

46. There's an hour long show on NatGeo about the intersexed

Maybe a Taboo on sexuality. I remember they show a little boy, maybe 5, that insists he's a girl. And there's a doctor that was born intersexed on it.

[Botany]

22. Yes and a bad idea too

Boys and girls are wired differently. A while back legos tried to
get girls and boys to play w/ their building blocks ..... the girls liked
houses that were done so they could role play in one manner and the
boys like to build the structures.

[aikoaiko]

24. Yes it is a fantasy. Thinking you can control your child's gender is folly.

[leveymg]

27. Until 60 years ago, toddlers were almost all raised "gender-neutral."

Remember all those black-and-white photos of your grandfather in a dress and long tresses before he got his "first hair-cut"?

The question is, does this couple intend to dress their sons in skirts and leave their hair long throughout their childhood and adolescence?

Otherwise, what they are doing is more normal than it might appear. Kid's clothing and toys are decidedly more degendered - and, lots of kids play with toys that are neither identifiably exclusively for boy or girl, and sports programs are increasingly identical or co-ed.

[Cid_B]

29. If it's the same couple as before...

... then yes.

They run with a child decides philosophy. They thought that parents made too many decisions for their kids.

The kids pick their own clothes, choose to cut hair, what to eat, what to study, whether or not to study etc.. etc...

Their two boys are often mistaken for girls as well.

[leveymg]

34. Sounds like typical progressive parents (and kids) of the late '60s and '70s

We too were left to decide what we wanted to do, when we wanted to do it. Most of us ended up being the most thoroughly conventional parents one can imagine.

Our kids will rebel against us. That's the only real continuity.

[yawnmaster]

33. Except in the "old days" they weren't doing it for the sake of gender-neutrality...

I we have those types of pictures of our boy because those locks were simply beautiful...
it wasn't because of a fight against society's norms in which we were using the child as cannon fodder.

[leveymg]

35. It's okay to experiment with your own life. I see no real harm here, provided . . .

these kids are allowed a normal social life with other children.

If so, they will increasingly reflect their classmates as they grow up - all kids conform with peers, as well as parents - unless, they're home schooled and isolated from social interaction. Now, that might be a real problem.

[yawnmaster]

42. I agree with you. As long as they do not isolate the children and truly treat them as an ...

experiment, once the children start interacting outside the immediate family, they will be adapt to whatever role they move into, irrespective of their parents "experiment".
If they are teaching the kids that potential in life should be independent of gender and to be strong individuals, then more power to them!

Personally, I think they are just making a statement and using the child as a tool. If that's all though, not much harm, if any, done.

[leveymg]

44. At some point, the kid's lives become their own, anyway.

If the parents tried to force this, most likely, it would be counter-productive. Kids are incredibly willful (at least mine is) - that's a good thing.

In general, I'm not as alarmed by difference in child-rearing as some people seem to be. Look at the variety in social pathways around the world - they all grow up okay in their own ways.

[yawnmaster]

47. Again, agreeing, as long as they don't take it to a level that might be thought as mental abuse.eom

[REP]

41. The Victorians dressed toddler boys in lace with curls - they fought WW1 okay

They did it because young children are beautiful dressed up, especially for the rare photo. I have a photo of my grandmother (b 1895) with her brothers in all their curls and lace, stiffly posed. There's no doubt which are the brothers and which is the girl, even if you don't know how they looked when they were a million years old. While my g-grandparents were progressive in many ways (first Grangers chapter in IA organized by him; my grandmother was sent to college; the voted for FDR), they were simply following fashion with their portrait of their young children.

[derby378]

32. Political correctness gone horribly, horribly wrong

It's not a freakin' social experiment - it's a child.

[Raine]

36. IMO doing that is like saying one gender is superior to

the other.

[elleng]

38. Fantasy YES. They ARE members of society.

Undesireable aspects may be minimized, with effort, but 'neutral?' No. LOTS is in the genes, like it or not.

[seabeyond]

40. i really dont get this big difference. two boys. huge readers. articulate at young age. talkers

excel on reading, english, history... both of them. their test scores are out of the roof. but but but that is girls.

neither built legos. we bought them. a lot. boys are suppose to like them. i figured the more i got and niftier, the more they would be enticed. the only time used is when i had dad build something huge and they watched.

they both played with gi joes. (role playing). but that is girls

they played war with their hockey sticks, but so did the two nieces that were their age.

they are both athletic, but then so was i.... competitive and top notch for 15 yrs.

they not only feel their emotions, but they can actually talk about them and express themselves well.

my niece? not at all. cant express for anything in the world

i really dont get what this big role thing is about

boys will be boys.... and well, we dont have a saying for girls, do we.

neither fight. they dont get as angry as i did. they are not as aggressive as i am. nor is their dad.

they are only and all of what they are in their masculinity, but i am not identifying specifically what that is.

[Hannah Bell]

45. yes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. The best evidence that it is a fantasy is the experience of transgender people.

The story is very consistent. From an early age, they modeled the behavior of the other gender despite the expectations and programming of the parents, family and peers.

[fishwax]

49. I don't think that not telling strangers the baby's gender is the same as raising a gender-neutral

child.

Based on what we actually know, I don't see what these parents are doing as a very big deal. They're not telling people outside the immediate family what the gender of the baby is. I haven't seen that they intend to keep such matters a secret from the kid or anything.

[quaker bill]

52. yup

Have raised both a boy and a girl, the differences between them were profound and innate. I modeled pretty much the same behavior for both and handled my relationship with them the same, they were and are quite different.

[alphafemale]

53. That's at least as damaging as forcing stereo-typical gender roles on your children.

Probably more so. Either way you are forcing a false identity or a loss of identity. As least most kids enduring clueless parents aren't made public spectacles.

[Withywindle]

55. As long as it's parent-driven, then yes, it's a parent's fantasy.

However, there really are a large range of gender-neutral baby/child clothes, toys, and books out there. When your baby is, well, a baby, he or she will probably not care at all what color the onesies and sippy cups are, and that won't have any effect later in life, I wouldn't imagine.



What about waiting a little while to watch your kids' personalities develop to find out what kind of toys they really want?

[Shagbark Hickory]

57. I'm trying to be open minded about this.

And I'm having a lot of trouble.

[deutsey]

58. My experience as a parent is like the author of this blog post

I'm not a macho male type and my wife isn't a "girly girl" so we were not hung up on making sure our sons wore blue and grew up playing with stereotypically boy toys or our daughter was a frilly pink-clad little princess.

It was interesting to watch them when they were toddlers gravitate naturally to traditionally gender-oriented things.

[alphafemale]

63. Give many boys a block and he'll plow a road with it or slaughter a hillside with it.

Give many girls girls a block and she'll will put a pretty hat on it, give it a bottle and burp it.

That's OK.

Some boys will nurture the block.

Some girls will hurl the block off the balcony.


That's OK, too.


Some boys and girls will paste their teachers face to the block douse it all in kerosene and set it on fire.

And that's Oh

Well, maybe...that's Not OK.

:rofl:

[DireStrike]

59. I'm afraid that's a ridiculous idea

I don't KNOW that it will be bad for the children, but I suspect it might.

Even if gender identity isn't an important part of overall identity, they have to meet up with the outside world sometime.

[PassingFair]

60. I have two girls.

The first born played with trucks and trains.
Thomas the Tank Engine was her favorite show.

She had NO use for baby-dolls.

The second born LOVED dolls from the get-go.
Her favorite "game" was called "Being Pregnant",
where she would disappear for hours at a time
with a baby-doll under her shirt until she felt
like giving birth.

:rofl:

Neither one of them grew up to be "tomboys",
a sexist-charged term that you NEVER hear anymore,
but was used to describe ME, when I was a child,
mostly because I was the only girl in a family with
three boys. I wore pants and played "army" more than
I wore dresses and played "tea-party".

Both of them grew up to be excellent problem-solvers
and they both do really well in school, especially in MATH,
which was very important to me.

Parents push gender roles on babies without even THINKING.
Studies show that when people are told that a baby is a boy
(even if the baby is a GIRL) they will say how strong and
handsome he is, what a BIG BOY he is. If told a male baby
is a GIRL, they will say how sweet the baby is, how pretty
the baby is.

I think the study that really got me to raise my daughters
as gender-neutral toddlers as possible, was one in which
"boy toys" and "girl toys" were colored differently.
Pink tanks and camo teapots....the boys would rather play
with the camo teapots than the pink tanks, because they
had LEARNED that pink was a GIRL'S color. Likewise, the
girls gravitated to the pink trucks and balls, etc. because
they had learned the same thing.

Girls will play with helicopters if they are disguised as fairies.


It was an eye-opener.

[HappyMe]

61. Good grief! They're children, not a f-in science

experiment!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. people dont want to, thats not the same as can't

[KT2000]

65. I am soooo special

and to make my baby as special as I am, I am going to keep its gender a big secret so the whole world knows how special we both are.

The kid looks to be a boy. Big deal.

[Odin2005]

66. 2 words: David Reimer.

[lunatica]

67. What are they expecting? A gender neutral adult? What is that?

I was the one who gave my son the advice he needed on how to literally fight when he was forced to fight bullies. It worked for him and to this day he thanks me. I also taught him how to cook and sew his buttons back on and do laundry. I also taught him to open doors for the elderly in public and I rely on him to open stuck jar lids when I can't. He's a sensitive and caring person who helped me take care of my mother for a few years before she died. He was actually the main caretaker during the day while I went to work. Yet he's totally a man in every way that society expects or demands.

At least the brothers will have each other to rely and lean on when they find society too confusing with it's gender roles.