Can we ever become citizens again?

[eridani]

“Customer and consumer are not the only words being used to change the nature of citizenship. The word taxpayer now regularly holds the place which in a true democracy would be occupied by citizen. Taxpayers bear a dual relationship to government, neither half of which has anything at all to do with democracy. Taxpayers pay tribute to the government and they receive services from it. So does every subject of a totalitarian regime. What taxpayers do not do, and what people who call themselves taxpayers have long since stopped even imagining themselves doing, is governing.”

--Daniel Kemmis, former mayor of Missoula, Montana

[notesdev]

1. Sure can

Just need to start adhering to the 13th Amendment again... end slavery (including debt slavery) and indentured servitude. Not one in a hundred escapes one condition or another under our present system, although euphemisms may take the place of the words "slave" and "servant".

[Richard Steele]

2. No. nm

[RandomThoughts]

3. That depends on what type of system says what a citizen is.

There are some groups that think they decide that. Then there are some groups that think only a few people decide that.

The old Roman system liked only a few people to have citizen rights. And ideas of removal of citizenship even with removal of influence are a common claim by many groups.



The ability to 'decide' who a citizen is, allows for both a threat to get people to comply with some status quo rules, and a hording mentality of some in some groups.

Even concept of prison have that, since some rights are lost by prisoners. Although many try to say someone is in prison to claim their rights removed, that is an example of using classifications also, and is how blacklisting works. You can see comments on many tv shows around that concept.


There is a club mentality in much of society. If a group decides who gets in, then they can maintain a 'thought' on what is important for a group. And actually that is not a problem, unless that group does wrong to many people by setting up layers of status around a group.

So if you are restricted or benefited from some group affiliation, then that becomes a problem if any of the items in that preferential treatment or restricted treatment come from outside that system.

So a fraternity does not damage, if it does not take anything from anyone outside the fraternity to support itself, that is the problem with 'the old boys club' it is sustained by people outside the group, by people inside the group. If they did there own work, and in openness, it is not a problem, but advantage by edict of the group that takes advantage from people leads to bad situations for everyone, as they drift further away from society.

And preferential treatment to members is part of that problems also.


I still think the societal model is circular, where there is a structure, then there is an outside group that is not part of that structure that is at the other end of the status, but governs over the side with status. It makes better sense when answering who guards the guards. Since the way the guards are guarded is the job having no rewards, so only someone with ideals for better society would want that job. So the way to guard the guards, is have power in the worst positions in society, so nobody wants those jobs, unless it is for the ideal to be done when working for some better result.

Hence why a money centric society fails, since it leads to consolidation and then separation, then turmoil.

[Fumesucker]

4. Of course, all you have to do is become a billionaire..

People with vast sums of money are "citizens" and the legislators obsessively pander to their wishes.

The rest of us are just taxpayers at best and really something more along the line of "subjects".

[geckosfeet]

5. From somewhere, I remember the phrase 'no taxation without representation'

No taxation without representation

on edit - added link

[stray cat]

6. You mean informed, intelligently engaged and voting and participating in governance?

Only if people want the responsibilities and work of citizens

[stray cat]

7. The tea par tiers seem to be trying

[Javaman]

8. When the people of this nation were referred to as consumers and not as citizens...

I knew it was a matter of time before all our rights got sucked dry.

We can always take back our rights, but first we must stop referring to ourselves as consumers.

It sounds ridiculous, but that simple term consumer has done more to destroy the basic psyche of the American Citizen than anything else.

[eridani]

9. I hereby resolve to do a word search on "taxpayer"

--whenever I write something that I intend for public consumption, and replace it with "citizen" wherever possible.

[XemaSab]

10. Word... I went to apply for a passport last month and they referred to me as a "customer"

I was not pleased.