Why Am I So Cynical of All These Media Reports of Mass-Rapes in Libya?

[LAGC]

I mean, if its true that Gadhafi's forces are really carrying out all these systemic rapes of women in opposition-held territory, it should be recognized as a war crime and warrants be put out by the International Criminal Court for those responsible.

But its not like we haven't heard this shit before, like during the run-up to Desert Storm with all the "babies being yanked from incubators" by Iraqi troops and left to die on cold floors. Or all the bullshit propaganda leading up to the current Iraq war.

Why is it so hard to trust anything the media says when they have shown a clear willingness to be enablers of foreign intervention via imperialist propaganda? I mean, reports of atrocities like this make a strong argument for NATO (and even U.S.) boots on the ground in Libya, so its not like motive isn't there to lie and/or exaggerate about such things to benefit the MIC.

Why can't we just be able to trust the MSM and take what they say at face-value? Is it really that much to ask for honesty and integrity in reporting? Maybe it just doesn't sell as well... and then when there really is any truth to what they're reporting, its like the boy who cried wolf -- you just have a hard time believing it after all the lies, even if they really are telling the truth this time.

:mad:

[sendero]

1. Because when you know for an absolute FACT..

... that the MSM doesn't tell you half the things they should, it's hard to believe anything they do tell you.

I take a pretty much neutral position on whatever I hear on the "news", so much of it is lies and distortion I can't really believe any of it for sure.

[Hannah Bell]

75. +100

[SkyDaddy7]

2. Al Jazeera did a report on it & I tend to believe it...

I don't think Al Jazeera is a tool for the West as so many say about other media organizations. They interviewed women, showed huge boxes of Viagra in captured trucks & one the ground in other locations.

I will try to find the video report for you but it might be difficult because it was several weeks ago when I saw it.

[backscatter712]

23. Yeah, based on this, I'm inclined to believe the stories of Gaddafi's military's atrocities.

And yes, I'm inclined to believe that we saved well over a hundred thousand lives when we intervened and prevented Gaddafi's forces from storming Benghazi.

That's the real damage that the war in Iraq did - that war was based on blatant lies, and was completely indefensible, which makes it much harder to get our shit together when there's a legitimate need for the international community (it's not just us, but France, Britain and others fighting in Libya, under authorization from the UN, remember?) to intervene to prevent genocide.

We did the right thing in Libya, and we are still doing the right thing in Libya.

[SkyDaddy7]

87. It seems you & I agree but I think we are...

part of a very small minority! And YES YES YES you are 100% correct about the Iraq War & its shameful legacy.

[PurityOfEssence]

50. Al Jazeera has forever ruined its reputation with its enabling of this war

Al Jazeera is a Qatari organization; Qatar is not just a cheerleader of this war but an active looter and resource thief as well as an open violator of the arms embargo. Qatar has been appointed the agent for sales of Libyan oil that is--or was--being pumped by the insurgents, and has taken delivery on some of it. They are actively involved in the mineral theft, and have warplanes operating as part of the "no-fly" missions.

Their reportage has been consistently skewed toward the rebels, and with its very close ties to the Qatari Government, it's no surprise.

There's plenty of shame to go around for this deplorable act of naked aggression and conquest, and they now join the ranks of other sullied propaganda operations.

[Aerows]

71. They are no worse than any other media outlet

They are all geared to having us think alike. Thinking for yourself, and evaluating the world you live in is apparently a horrible idea.

[PurityOfEssence]

74. Yes, hence the old phrase "damned by faint praise"

They had been seen and held by many on the left as an uncorrupted and honest voice. So much for that.

You hit on a very great truth: one shouldn't put blind trust in an ideology, a group or an individual. That's part of the problem I have with our President and his most ardent followers: the whole appeal has been to have faith in his character and ethical nature and just shine on the specifics of policy because he'll "do the right thing" in the end. After the seemingly endless trail of corporatist and imperialist moves, it's going to have to be one hell of a super-terrific end to balance out all of the nasty means along the way.

[Distant Observer]

79. Al Jazeera is OWNED by Emir to Qatar -- Arch enemy of Gaddafi since

days when the mad colonel railed against the Arab Potentates who amassed great personal wealth and neglected investment in social projects.

[PurityOfEssence]

83. Controlled, certainly...

He loaned them something like a half billion dollars to get them through their first 5 years, but I couldn't find the specifics of current ownership on a quick search this morning.

The point is pretty clear, though, and as we both know, this whole operation stinks to the stars.

When do you think we're going to finally literally seize the Libyan money in western banks? We keep floating the trial balloon, but it seems like that would be a step too far. National Sovereignty, feh, and stealing oil that's lying around, sure, but out-and-out thievery? I wonder though: we're in a hell of a flagrant mood...

[Mimosa]

3. Might you be remembering the leaked CIA memo about how to manipulate women?

I haven't believed the Libya reports because I remember the CIA memo about manipulating women into supporting the Afghan war:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/cia-paper-reveals-plans-to-manipulate-european-opinion-on-afghanistan.html

Excerpt:


Raw Story
March 27, 2010

‘Out-of-the-box’ CIA think tank proposes concerns over women’s rights, fear of terrorism as ways to boost support for Afghan war

Evidently spooked by the collapse of the Dutch government over the country’s involvement in Afghanistan, the CIA has put together a strategy proposal to prevent what it fears could be a “precipitous” collapse of support for the war in Afghanistan among European allies.

A document marked “confidential / not for foreign eyes,” posted to the Wikileaks Web site, suggests strategies to manipulate European public opinion on the war, particularly in France and Germany.

The document doesn’t propose any direct methods by which the CIA could achieve this — there are no references to planting propaganda in the press, for example — but it does lay out what it sees as the key talking points to changing hearts and minds on the war. Among its proposals, the policy paper suggests playing up the plight of Afghan women to French audiences, as the French public has shown concern for women’s rights in Afghanistan.

For the German audience, the document suggests a measure of fear-mongering about the possible fallout of NATO failure in Afghanistan. “Germany’s exposure to terrorism, opium, and refugees might help to make the war more salient to skeptics,” the document asserts.

Read the report here, courtesy of Wikileaks.

The policy paper was prepared by a group called the “CIA Red Cell,” which describes itself as having been tasked “with taking a pronounced ‘out-of-the-box’ approach that will provoke thought and offer an alternative viewpoint on the full range of analytic issues.”

[tabatha]

8. See

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1183250&mesg_id=1184052

There is no CIA involved in these claims.

[sufrommich]

9. "The document doesn’t propose any direct methods

by which the CIA could achieve this — there are no references to planting propaganda in the press, for example"

That's not exactly a plan.

[msanthrope]

17. Wow. So the CIA set up DSK, Assange, and Libyan Forces for false rape accusations?

I've learned a great deal on DU.

One of the things I've learned is that when the PL has a favorite male, any suggestion that the male may be prone to violence against women is countered by accusations that the CIA is involved--

For example, I've read posts --completely unsupported by facts--that Assange's accusers are CIA operatives.
I've read that Sarkosy's super-CIA half-brother set up DSK's rape sting.

And now I read that the use of 'rape' by Libyan forces might be a CIA set-up. Because rape doesn't occur as war strategy (Kosovo, Congo.)


More Rape Apologia for Leftists we Love......(tm)

[pampango]

4. Disinformation is a part of any war. All sides know there is a PR battle in additon

to a military one.

It's also difficult to verify stories, even if one sincerely wants to, with battles raging. It's pretty indisputable that mass rape is commonly used as a weapon of war, though I would imagine it is a difficult thing to prove in real time as a war is ongoing (or to prove that it is just a disinformation campaign for that matter). My guess is that, absent conclusive evidence, most people go with whichever version is most consistent with their view of a war.

I suppose that if the MSM had played up the existence of concentration camps during WWII or genocide in Rwanda or Srebrenica, some would have argued that there was no real proof of their existence. Some would have believed because they already thought the Nazis or Hutus or Serbs nationalists were capable of such atrocities. Others would have dismissed "unproven" reports as disinformation spread to support for the Allies in WWII, NATO's actions against Serbia or calls for international intervention in Rwanda.

[PurityOfEssence]

86. This administration was supposed to be different

The stark reality is that this is old, classic machine politics with a vengeance.

Underpinning this whole episode is the appeal to our kinder and nobler natures to trust a towering figure of incorruptible transcendence. It makes the pill that much harder to swallow.

A deceitful war of conquest under a Bush is hard to take, but it's more expected.

I haven't had any illusions about the nature of our current President since he cynically used religion and ducked policy specifics when trying to get elected, so it's not like I'm hurt and disillusioned; I'm well on record for these character issues. What grates most is seeing leftists enable this kind of ugliness and seeing the disillusionment of others. Oh, and there's that issue of the people getting killed and all that. Yeah, that.

Cynical manipulation from a George Bush just doesn't rankle as much as it does from our guy; we were supposed to be better. We're really not; this is a deplorable war of conquest based on lies and sold with the deepest form of cynical manipulation of people's sympathies. People should be furious.

[Ed Suspicious]

5. It's the same feeling I get when they report

"Evil Leader's #2 in command (a man known as 'The Baby Killing Butcher or Bahrain') was capture/killed by the US forces today and taken to Guantanamo/Obliterated by the bullet. Baby Killing Butcher was the Queen of Diamonds in the US deck of nefarious persons playing cards.". Photo's of the corpse at 11:00.

[tabatha]

10. False equivalency

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1183250&mesg_id=1184052

[Snoutport]

12. Read the Rape of Nanking. Rape is part of war. WWI, WWII, Crusades

Greek, Roman, Ottoman, etc etc etc....

If it DIDN'T happen in this instance it would probably be the first war ever where rape wasn't part of war.

[Hannah Bell]

76. yes. on both sides, however.

[tabatha]

6. If you really, actually followed the news,

you would have encountered many articles reporting that the ICC is investigating rapes in Libya.

ICC to investigate institutionalized gang-rape of women in Libya
Security forces in Libya are allegedly using sexual enhancement drugs as a “machete” and gang-raping women they stop at checkpoints, the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court has said.

Luis Moreno-Ocampo told CNN Monday that the court in The Hague will investigate allegations of institutionalized rape in the war-torn country.

“There are rapes. The issue is who organized them,” Luis Moreno-Ocampo told CNN’s Nic Robertson. “They were committed in some police barracks. Were the policemen prosecuted? What happened?” he asked.
http://feb17.info/news/icc-to-investigate-institutionalized-gang-rape-of-women-in-libya/

Psychologist: Proof of hundreds of rape cases during Libya's war
Benghazi, Libya (CNN) -- In the rebel stronghold of Benghazi, Libya the whispers and rumors about rape being used as a tool of war by Moammar Gadhafi's troops are coming from all corners of society, from rebel fighters to doctors and citizens, who have come in contact with families displaced by the conflict.

Now a Libyan psychologist has come forward saying she has case study after case study that proves these rumors and whispers are true.

Psychologist Siham Sergewa has a number of distressing images which she says demonstrates the abuse of alleged victims -- one appears to show a cigarette burn on a woman's breast, another a faded bite mark, while several others show the deep purple hue of nasty bruises.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/23/libya.rape.survey.psychologist/

Mobile Phones Document Rape as Weapon in Libya
As Libyan governmental forces have been forced back in that country’s civil war, rebels in the formerly besieged town of Misrata have seized the mobile phones from killed and injured soldiers. On some of those phones were video documentation of wide-spread rape by soldiers of women in the path of the fighting. The rape is systematic and committed by the military as a weapon.

Talking to The World’s host Lisa Mullins on the radio, Colvin said, “From the evidence I’ve heard and seen I believe the rapes were extensive and that they were condoned at the highest level.”
http://feb17.info/news/mobile-phones-document-rape-as-weapon-in-libya/

The last two sources document cases from two completely independent sources - a Libyan psychologist and actual footage from mobile phones.

Poor Libyan women - not only have they been raped, but once again, there are holier-than-thou believe-what-they-want ignore-the-evidence people who believe that is all a hoax. There are some woman younger than 16 who have had abortions after being raped. It is a nightmare. They have my complete and utter support and compassion.

On edit:

Al Jazeera report
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/05/20115381016787271.html
There has been escalating violence, especially sexual assaults, against women in Libya.
The accusations are levelled at forces of the Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.
Some women say they were taken to the desert in groups. Others say they were raped in front of their families.
Opposition fighters say they have found Viagra pills in tanks and cars captured from the Gaddafi forces.
Al Jazeera's Sue Turton reports from Benghazi.

[sufrommich]

7. Is Al Jazeera in on the conspiracy too?

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/201132845516144204.html

http://jezebel.com/5806102/nobel-peace-prize-winners-campaign-against-rape-as-weapon-of-war

Do you know how common rape as a weapon of war is?

:wtf:

[Snoutport]

11. The Greeks raped when they took over, the Romans raped when they took over

the Ottomans raped when they took over, the Crusaders raped when they took over, the troops of WW I raped when they took over countries, Read THE RAPE OF NANKING and you can see pictures of what the Japanese troops did to the women and children of Nanking, the women of Korea are still fighting the Japanese govt. over being raped and forced to prostitute during WWII...

If you are cynical that rape is not part of war I don't think you've done any homework.

Start with the Rape of Nanking... you will NEVER look at rape the same way.

[Mimosa]

13. The problem -and the cause- is war itself, as you say.

The USA might try helping by refusing to participate in wars?

But no profits in that idea, are there?

[SoCalDem]

14. Another thing to consider.

In highly restrictive, "conservative" areas of the world, especially in hyper-religious Islamic regions, women are a commodity to be bargained off to the highest bidder. Women & girls are often sequestered and watched constantly, their chastity being their most valuable asset. Average young men have little or no access to casual sex or relationships.

The rank and file military is usually made up of young men (nature made them want sex). In their "normal" lives they may wait a very long time to find a mate, and in wartime, the rules all go out the window, so rape is an option many of them cannot "refuse". They may rationalize it as being just another war tactic, and I suspect that some enjoy the ready access to anyone , anytime,anywhere...without consequences.

When their superiors approve of this tactic, they may be especially eager to use it.:(

[Snoutport]

15. excellent points

[okasha]

16. Kosovo, Congo

I assume you're "cynical" about those mass rape reports, too?

[msanthrope]

18. Slobodan Milosevic certainly was. n/t

[Xithras]

31. Kosovo is a bad example.

When the investigators for the Hague went into Kosovo after the war, they heard a lot of rumors of rapes, but could only actually find ONE example of a mass rape, where 22 women were gathered up and gang raped by soldiers. Problem was, they were Serbian women, and were gang raped by KLA soldiers.

Our own government has quietly dropped rape from its list of justifications for that war. Like the "100,000 missing Albanian men", it turned out that the rumors of mass rape by the Serbian Army were completely fabricated.

[Hannah Bell]

77. +100

[inna]

91. exactly. ty

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. "In war, truth is the first casualty." Aeschylus

[LanternWaste]

20. And Bosnian Serbs were not massacred in the 90's, either.

And Bosnian Serbs were not massacred in the 90's, either. :shrug:

[Viking 1]

21. Perhaps because you don't really follow the news

Rape has become a sadly common weapon of war in Africa. Just look at the Congo, for Pete's sake! Nor is it confined to that continent. In the 1990s, Serbian soldiers and officers (Christian) were raping Bosnian (Muslim) girls as young as nine years of age.

[EFerrari]

22. Or perhaps because the poster does follow the news and has learned

to take media reports with a pillar of salt.

[sufrommich]

24. What media reports? It's not as if any reputable media across

the planet are denying it.

[EFerrari]

26. It's not a question of affirming or denying

but of finding out what is happening. This is the same media, as the OP says, that brought us incubator babies. This is the same media that reports all casualties of drones as dead terrorists when a quarter of them are civilians. And on and on.

[sufrommich]

28. No, it's coming from a variety of media sources. Not all media

is created equal.

[EFerrari]

33. Oh, please. n/t

[Viking 1]

37. What? The media is covering the Congo???

Where? And at the height of Serbian atrocities, the rape of little girls got no play whatsoever, because we in this country were riveted by the vitally-important Nancy Kerrigan and Lorena Bobbit sagas.

[EFerrari]

45. As I said elsewhere, in Egypt we were lucky

because Al Jazeera did a good job there. But they are not neutral on Libya. They started using the rebel flag, for pete's sake, as a graphic for their newscasts.

And they are very quiet about the events in Bahrain, where there are Qatari soldiers serving with the Saudis.

[tabatha]

49. Very quiet about Bahrein?

While they have not been as vocal as other countries, they certainly have covered Bahrain.
They have not been quiet.

There is this article:
http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/05/24/bahrains-voiceless-how-al-jazeeras-coverage-of-the-arab-spring-is-uneven/

But the comments are very telling.

That is, be careful without full knowledge of the facts, in jumping to conclusions - which you seem to like to do.

[EFerrari]

52. That article supports what I posted about AJ's uneven coverage.

Speaking of jumping to conclusions and being careful.

[tabatha]

53. Yes, be careful.

There is a difference between quiet (none) and uneven coverage.

[EFerrari]

55. Quiet

ADJECTIVE:
qui·et·er, qui·et·est

1. Making little or no noise: quiet neighbors; a quiet engine.
2. Free of loud noise; hushed: a quiet street.
3. Calm and unmoving; still: a quiet lake.
4. Free of turmoil and agitation; untroubled. See Synonyms at still1.
5. Restful; soothing: a quiet afternoon nap; a quiet tune on the flute.
6. Tranquil; serene: a quiet place in the country.
7. Not showy or garish; subdued: a room decorated in quiet colors.
8. Restrained in style; understated: a quiet strength; a quiet life.

[tabatha]

57. Yep, you got it.

[EFerrari]

61. Quiet does not mean none. And unless you disagree with the article

you yourself posted where the local Qatari press called the coverage "timid", you have painted yourself into a corner.

[tabatha]

65. Not at all.

If you google

AL Jazeera Bahrain

you will see that Al Jazeera has not been quiet on Bahrain.

They have not been as vocal as on other countries, but they have not been quiet.

In fact, I rememember listening to an AJE discussion group where the subject of Bharain came up.

On edit - do you consider a "live blog on Bahrain" quiet?

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/16/live-blog-bahrain

[tabatha]

38. Wow

What a lot of credible, factual information you have provided. You have totally convinced me.

[EFerrari]

42. When I post the same PressTV story over and over

and claim it's different sources or when I quote Bernard Henri-Levi one day because he backs the Libyan rebels and attack him the next day because he defends Strauss Kahn, then get back to me.

I'm not interested in convincing you.

[tabatha]

44. That means one can never

agree and disagree with the same person.

I agree with some things that Obama says and disagree with others.

That makes me what?

[EFerrari]

46. Maybe that's the difference we're having here.

I'm interested in finding out what is happening. You seem to be interested in agreeing or disagreeing.

[tabatha]

48. Off on a tangent.

I only brought up "agreeing or disagreeing" in response to your charge. And, which by the way, you did not answer but deflected with another completely erroneous charge.

You may not have noticed, but the only post on this thread that quotes sources from four different agencies about the rapes was by me - no one else has provided links to reports either for or against. Yep, I am interested in what is happening because I have quoted four different sources on the topic. You have not, and no one else has.

And guess what, no one has responded to that post. Not one response. Not even you.

I am well aware of the types of tactics deniers use. When someone brings up a valid pint, ignore it, or twist it - but never acknowledge it.

(I have spent hours reading material about Libya, listening to broadcasts, videos, etc - I wonder if you have, in your supposed quest to find out what is happening. Because I have never seen citations from you to back up what you say. )

[EFerrari]

54. "Because I have never seen citations from you to back up what you say."

I think I'm done with this.

[tabatha]

58. Yep, me too.

[tabatha]

30. No, it is not the same media.

Al Jazeera did not report those falsehoods.


On edit:

An African once pointed out to me the difference, on average, between black and white folk. White people judge a whole group of people by the actions of one or a few; black folk on the other hand, judge a person by his/her actions and do not confer those actions onto the whole group of people.

Just because some media are bad on some occasions, does not mean that all media are bad on all occasions.

For example, there are some senators who have cheated on their wives - does that mean that all senators cheat on their spouses?

There are some in the media that lie, especially Fox News. Does that mean everyone at Fox News lies - no, I believe Shep Smith is honest.

There are some excellent, credible reporters on the beat in Libya. There reports should not be dismissed because of what happened in Iraq. If that is so, then all reporters forever more are damned.

[EFerrari]

34. I wouldn't bet the farm on Al Jazeera on this one

considering Qatar rushed to cut oil deals with the rebels.

[tabatha]

36. What a bunch of false equivalency!

This is as bad as bad journalism.

[EFerrari]

41. What is the false equivalence that I'm making? Thanks.

[tabatha]

47. That somehow oil deals made by Qatar

influence what doctors and others find on Gaddafi's soldiers as reported by an Al Jazeera reporter in the field.
Yes, I know that Al Jazeera is funded by Qatar.

[EFerrari]

56. I made no equivalence between Qatari oil deals and doctors. n/t

[sufrommich]

40. That's pretty ironic coming from someone who takes Venezuelan

state media as the epitome of truth.

[EFerrari]

43. I hope you have a link for that?

[PurityOfEssence]

78. Can you imagine the outcry if a white person claimed the reverse of that?

Racism is an equal-opportunity affliction, and there are plenty of racists of all colors.

This "African" who pointed this out to you is full of deep, ugly shit, regardless of how oppressed he/she may be or have been. Niceness and assholiness transcend color and culture, and xenophobia and bigotry exist everywhere.

Playing the race card is like playing the rape card: it's an attempt to hound an opponent from the scene; it's character assassination.

The continual need of many of the interventionists to so demonize Qaddafi is missing the real truth of the situation. He's not all bad, and the rebels aren't all good. The rebels have used fear of black people to bolster their cause, and they've put the whole country at risk by persisting in an insurrection that simply doesn't have enough support to succeed on its own. To get their way, they're playing cynical games with oil and the whole thing just reeks.

In the face of complexity, those who NEED to be correct must resort to the most extreme of vilifications, and shout down any opposition as they tar their villains with the vilest of accusations.

[Hannah Bell]

80. anybody who makes sweeping generalizations about "white folk" and "black folk" = fool.

[PurityOfEssence]

84. Oh, hush; interventionist pro-war types are morally superior to us

We should be happy to be tolerated at all.

Now you're gonna just mess up everything.

[Quantess]

85. ONE African guy told you that.

I'm sure that makes the generalization very credible.
/sarcasm

[Distant Observer]

88. Pls wake up. What do you think happens in these "regime-change" ops --

Whole new worlds of "information" are constructed to support our "action."


This is routine. There are whole departments in our intelligence community devoted to this. I have discussed this personally in detail with a former member of the Intelligence Community.

This is not new. It is fundamental to way these projects are executed. It is truly IMPOSSIBLE to
determine truth our fictions from our vantage point in the middle of an operation.

We basically have to look to data that we can source BEFORE the operation begins to give us guidance.

[PurityOfEssence]

51. You don't hear these same honorable media types reporting the systematic rape by the rebels, either

“The situation in Benghazi is very critical, because those Libya boys, they are going to houses and attacking our blacks, especially the Nigerians, and Ghanaians, raping our girls, stealing our money, and beating people up,” Jones said. “So we just run away from there. Most of our boys, they catch them and lock them up, so we don’t know what the situation is there.”

Jones had been working as a housekeeper in Benghazi. Her brother, an electrician named Terry David, also worked there. And he, too, said that rebels attacked him and other African migrants.

“Sometimes they hit us, anything they have in their hand. Point gun at you; sometimes blow out people’s brains,” Jones said. “So we can’t stand that, and have to run away from the country.”

Rebels abuse foreign workers

Admittedly, this is an old article, coming from March 14th, but it nicely points out some of the extremely racist elements in the rebellion; you'll also remember the coded racism of the fear of the Sub-Saharan "African Mercenaries" that was used to start this whole intervention. It's from Public Radio International, which I'd say is a pretty honorable source.

Qaddafi pissed off the locals by his pan-african initiatives: there's a strong racist undercurrent among the lighter skinned North Africans, and he drew their wrath for this.

Regardless, it shows not only the systematic rape used by these altruistic and noble rebels, and it shows the willingness of the media to play favorites in a deeply cynical way.

[Distant Observer]

90. Ssshh. This type of information is now banned from distribution. It is malicious "rumor"

[Xithras]

25. Because our government has a long history of lying to us.

Babies ripped from Kuwaiti incubators. Iraq funding al qaeda. 100,000 dead Albanians in a Kosovoan genocide.

All had "evidence" and alleged witnesses. All were put forward by our government. All were used as justifications for war. All were later proven to have been completely fabricated.

The Libyan rapes could be real, or they could be another lie. The problem is that we won't know the truth for years, AFTER the fighting is over.

[sufrommich]

27. The reports aren't coming from the government or strictly US

media.

[tabatha]

29. There are recordings of rape on mobile phones

taken from dead or captured Gaddafi soldiers.

[Hannah Bell]

81. says who? oh, right -- the "rebels".

[JVS]

32. Because the reason you are getting this news is to push an agenda.

Without the agenda, the rapes would be ignored like so many other rapes.

[tabatha]

39. Yep, that is why the ICC is investigating this?

What a bunch of baloney.

Which other rapes were ignored.

You have made a statement with no supporting data. Just something pulled out of the air.

[EFerrari]

60. A bunch of human rights baloney supported by Human Rights Watch

the Libyan Red Crescent in Benghazi, and Amnesty International.


LIBYA: Prisoners on Both Sides at Risk

snip
Prisoners held by rebels too

The rebels have also taken political prisoners and prisoners of war. Although there are no reliable figures, scores or perhaps hundreds have been detained since the start of the conflict. But the great majority have been released.

They are the so-called mercenaries, suspected of fighting for Gaddafi for money. Most of them come from sub-Saharan Africa, and they have been persecuted in rebel-held areas.

But migrant workers from sub-Saharan African countries have also been targeted in the east. Many have been detained, hundreds have been injured in attacks by angry crowds, and some have been lynched.

snip

http://www.ips.org/africa/2011/04/libya-prisoners-on-both-sides-at-risk/

There have been reports of looting, killing and raping of black African immigrants in eastern Libya since March.

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-execute-black-immigrants-while-forces-kidnap-others-20586

[tabatha]

64. The task of the ICC when they went to Benghazi

was to investigate BOTH sides. (Are you aware of that?)

The ICC is also looking at the rebel camp, which has been fighting Gaddafi’s forces since February in what is now a full-scale civil war that Western officials say is deadlocked.

Moreno-Ocampo said the court was probing allegations that the rebels attacked black Africans in Libya, whom they assumed to be mercenaries aiding Gaddafi’s forces. Western officials and Libyan rebels have said that nationals from Chad, Niger and other African states have been among the mercenaries in Libya.

The rebels have pledged to cooperate with the ICC, Moreno-Ocampo said, while Gaddafi’s government has not responded to the court’s requests for information.

http://shabablibya.org/news/strong-proof-of-libya-crimes-against-humanity-icc

The ICC receives reports form Human Rights watch and I have full confidence that if there is anything to these reports then they will be prosecuted. I am critical of bad behavior by BOTH sides, not just one.

You may not be aware of my philosophy of life - I believe that each person has both good and bad in them; some people more than others. That is why I can see the good in people and the bad in the same person. If the behavior is bad, and others need to be protected from it, then steps have to be taken.

The cause of the rebels against Gaddafi is a just cause. The cause of the people against the apartheid government was a just cause. However, there were some people fighting against apartheid that did bad things such as necklacing. Did that negate the whole movement ---- absolutely NOT. Mandela would never have supported those actions, yet he was on the same side as those that necklaced.

Just as with the media, there is good and bad - you have cited media, yet you disparage the use of media citation by others - depending on the topic.

[EFerrari]

66. I have not disparaged the use of media citations by others.

I have raised questions about AJ's neutrality and about the reliability of the media in general.

And by the way, there is no such thing as raping for a just cause, in case that isn't clear to you.

[blindpig]

35. Your 'cynicism' is well founded.

k&r

[apples and oranges]

59. so you only believe news when it coincides with your

opinion/agenda?

[EFerrari]

62. Are we supposed to "believe" news reports?

[Distant Observer]

92. That is actually what happens. If not it's causes cognitive dissonance

[femrap]

63. Don't you remember

Yugoslavia and its break-up. Maybe you better do some googling about war, women, and rape. Look at Darfur....raped then shot in the vagina so to cause fistula.

You must have led a sheltered life....there is a hell of a lot of evil out there. And during war, there are no laws, no rules....and typically no repercussions.

In times of war, men can act like a pack of wild dogs. For example, Lara Logan of CBS News.

[Aerows]

67. It's a story *designed* to outrage Americans

Rapes, because all the troops are on Viagra.

They want the American public to be all in on Libya, but we aren't complying. It sounds just like babies thrown out of incubators, and when governments lie, occasionally, they have to pay the price of no one believing a damn thing they say.

[NightWatcher]

68. because "they're throwing babies out of incubators" was used in Iraq

and was shown to be BS used to enrage us

[janet118]

69. Two clues: Saddam's "rape rooms" & Kuwait's "premature babies" n/tn/t

[leftstreet]

70. K&R

[sabrina 1]

72. Especially since the MSM doesn't report on the

rapes of immigrant African women om Libya and the brutality towards most Immigrants who were caught in the middle, by the 'rebel forces'.

Several of the World human rights orgs reported, eg, on missing Somali women taken by 'rebel forces' and not found again.

And then there are the brutal killings of Ghadaffi Govt. officials in their home towns, execution style etc.

So we hear only what is hoped will garner support for an invasion of Libya.

I don't pay much attention to our media anymore, but look for multiple sources from various places before accepting anything like this from them.

[WatsonT]

73. Rape and war go hand in hand

I'd be amazed if it was *not* happening.

[Distant Observer]

82. Would not expect rape to be less that that by US soldiers or the Libyan rebels

The media just doesn't seem to wallow in those reports. There were many reports of rebel raping as they drove towards Tripoli -- in the early days of the insurrection before the pro-Gaddafi forces drove them back -- but almost no Western press followed those stories beyond a mention of "rumors."

It the report from Misrata is true it is monstrous, but 1 "repentant soldier" talking at gun point, and 1 cell phone video leaves a lot to be suspicious about. The rebels are famous for their propaganda cell phone video clips.

[upi402]

89. Truth - the first casualty in war

and our "media" doesn't have a glancing familiarity with it unless it's used to pepper bullshit to help it go down better.

[PurityOfEssence]

93. Churchill: "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."

Money. Power. Belonging to a group.

It's a wonder we've done so well as a species 'til now...

[malaise]

94. Because it's not like we haven't heard this shit before

Rec

[Taverner]

95. Right now, pretty much every "Arab Spring" country is having mass rapes

Welcome to the wonderful world of religion...