A young man, driven by hunger and desperation, stole groceries from my neighbor yesterday..

[PotatoChip]

I just got back in from talking to my neighbor this morning.

She told me that she had 3 bags full of groceries stolen from her car yesterday. Apparently she had just finished doing her weekly food shopping and, leaving the car unlocked and running, made a quick trip into the post office. As she was walking back out, she saw that her car door was wide open and a there was a young man running off w/some of her groceries. She said that he looked to be about 14 to 16 years of age, thin and a bit disheveled.

He hadn't gotten very far. In fact, she said she probably could have caught up w/him if she wanted to. But instead, she just watched as he went off. Before he turned the corner onto another street, he briefly looked back and they made eye-contact. He looked scared she said, and sad. Then in that very brief moment, he mouthed the words, "I'm sorry", and continued on.

Stunned, she slowly got back in her car. Nothing but the food had been taken. Not her GPS, nor even her laptop which was in the back seat covered by the groceries that the young man had taken. He had to have seen it.

She says she cannot stop thinking about the whole incident and especially that very brief exchange they had had. He had missed one other bag and she briefly considered trying to catch up w/him and hand over that one too. But didn't. She said she is angry w/herself for not having tried to find him. I consoled her as best I could, but she was still clearly deep in thought as we parted company. And now, so am I.

What is happening to us as country?

[WhiteTara]

1. When this happened to Argentina

I read an article where people would find an animal walking around (lots of cows in Argentina) and people would swarm it, kill it and fight over the kill. They lamented their loss of civility.

[roguevalley]

90. at the food bank here someone told me about two young men who

went in there, got food and sat on the doorstep to eat it they were so hungry.

By your actions we shall know ye. God help us all.

[JustAnotherGen]

352. I see this

At my food banks I volunteer at. :-(

[quinnox]

2. A scene that will be repeated across the nation no doubt

In times to come. As more and more social services are cut, because we have to keep feeding that war machine, while of course the tax cuts for the wealthy are out of the question to consider as a target! Well done, Obama and the Democrats! This bipartisanship thing with the GOP is once again working out beautifully.

[MadMaddie]

188. This is bullshit! The Republican House is controlling the budget

and they don't have to vote on many things. The Democratic leaders are trying to stop it.

This story of "they all are the same is a Faux News talking point"....this same mentality is why people stayed home and didn't vote in 2010.

The Republicans have told you exactly what they want to do, from the Governer level to their state legislatures to DC. It is NOT the Democratic Governers doing this.

Put the blame where it needs to be.

Stay home and don't vote just like in 2010 and then try to blame the minority Democratic members for failing to stop it.....repeat....rinse....and round and round we go.

WHO is pushing Tax Cuts for the wealthy? Look at Ryans plan he gives even more tax cuts to the wealthy, luckily the Senate put a kabosh on that bullshit....Look at the Wisconsin, Florida and Ohio Governers ALL of them are giving huge tax cuts to the wealthy while cutting all types of spending for the common folks.

Wake up unless you, me and others put more PROGRESSIVE Democratic House members in to place we will not stop this. This is a Democracy and we have responsibilities.

I will agree with you about the war: The Democratic House tried to stop the war with a bill last week the Republicans and blue dog Dems stopped it. Let's get rid of the Blue Dogs...

[Hawkowl]

197. Only since 2010

Before that the Dems controlled EVERYTHING. Pelosi, Reid, and Obama couldn't do jack shit. Why? Because they didn't want to bad enough. They don't care enough. They are all millionaires and the average American can, in the words of Marie Antoinette, "eat shit".

[Obamanaut]

198. Nobody wants to hear this bit of truth. nt

[gop_equals_taliban]

3. What is happening to us as country?

Conservatism it is a disease and it needs to be eradicated.

[loudsue]

35. +++++10,000 K & R

It is, indeed.

[calimary]

59. CONservatism IS a disease.

Maybe we should start referring to it that way. Start planting that seed. Jesus certainly wasn't a CONservative. The poor and hungry and outcast were the people He cared about most.

Btw - Welcome to DU, gop_equals_taliban!

[HopeHoops]

72. There's nothing wrong with being "conservative". I don't think anyone in the GOP (national) is.

They're corporate whores, not conservatives. They know the Reagan-era lines and use them. They know the teabagger lines and use them. They know the FOX Noise lines and use them. Nothing about the GOP at the Federal level qualifies for "conservative".

Most people would call me a liberal, but in many ways I'm more conservative than anyone in Congress. As for Jesus, the so called "Christians" of the GOP would crucify him all over again - fucking liberal weirdo hippie freak. The GOP is great at talking about Jesus, but they don't follow a fucking thing that's even close to what he actually said to do. The GOP assholes need jumpsuits with logos for all of their corporate sponsors - just like NASCAR.

[Name removed]

231. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MsPithy]

101. "Conservatism it is a disease and it needs to be eradicated."

Actually, conservatism is a form of brain damage, an enlarged amygdala. Conservatives fear the illogical, Sharia Law, for instance, and ignore the factual danger of global climate change because their authority figures tell them to. If we do not find a way to cure them or diminish their influence, well, the survival of our democracy if not all of human culture hangs in the balance.

[WatsonT]

171. You may want to research

who has been in charge these past few years.

[TalkingDog]

189. Republican Conservatism. I believe in conservation, don't you?

The environment, our rights... there are lots of things I want to treat conservatively. Using words that can be broadly interpreted like Conservatism and assuming that all people will read that word in exactly the same way, sets you up to lose the discussion almost immediately.

[defendandprotect]

316. When you are a liberal you are taking a conservative approach to nature ...

and human rights -- that's not what GOP/rw Elites have been doing -- far from it!!

[crikkett]

4. he might be back

next week...
tell her to be patient and that I think she's a very good person. Your story made my morning.
Thanks

[Mimosa]

5. The Great Depression remake. More details in post below

A member of my home board had posted this astute analysis by a financial expert on

"Why the Rich Love High Unemployment"

http://www.washingtonsblo...e-high-unemployment.html



Guest Post by Mark Provost. Mark has more than ten years experience as an equity analyst, specializing in the semiconductor and wireless industry. Mark writes regularly about the US economy for Dollars & Sense, ZMag, Truthout, and Global Research.

Excerpt:

Another consequence of labor-market flexibility has been the shift from full-time jobs to temporary positions. In 2010, 26 percent of all news jobs were temporary <10> - compared with less than 11 percent in the early 1990's recovery and just 7.1 percent in the early 2000's. The American model of high productivity and low pay has friends in high places. Former Obama adviser and General Motors (GM) car czar Steven Rattner argues <11> that America's unemployment crisis is a sign of strength:

Perversely, the nagging high jobless rate reflects two of the most promising attributes of the American economy: its flexibility and its productivity. Eliminating jobs - with all the wrenching human costs - raises productivity and, thereby, competitiveness. Unusually, US productivity grew right through the recession; normally, companies can't reduce costs fast enough to keep productivity from falling. That kind of efficiency is perhaps our most precious economic asset. However tempting it may be, we need to resist tinkering with the labor market. Policy proposals aimed too directly at raising employment may well collaterally end up dragging on productivity. Rattner comes dangerously close to articulating a full-unemployment policy. He suggests unemployed workers don't merit the same massive government intervention that served GM and the banks so well. When Wall Street was on the ropes, both administrations sensibly argued, "doing nothing is not an option." For the long-term unemployed, doing nothing appears to be Washington's preferred policy.

The unemployment crisis has been a godsend for America's superrich, who own the vast majority of financial assets - stocks, bonds, currency and commodities.
Persistent unemployment and weak unions have changed the American workforce into a buyers' market - job seekers and workers are now "price takers" rather than "price makers." Obama's recovery shares with Reagan's early years the distinction of being the only two post-war expansions where wage concessions have been the rule rather than the exception. The year 2009 marked the slowest wage growth on record, followed by the second slowest in 2010.<2>

America's labor market depression propels asset price appreciation. In the last two years, US corporate profits and share prices rose at the fastest pace in history - and the fastest in the G-7. Considering the source of profits, the soaring stock market appears less a beacon of prosperity than a reliable proxy for America's new misery index. Mark Whitehouse of The Wall Street Journal describes <12> Obama's hamster wheel recovery:

From mid-2009 through the end of 2010, output per hour at U.S. nonfarm businesses rose 5.2% as companies found ways to squeeze more from their existing workers. But the lion's share of that gain went to shareholders in the form of record profits, rather than to workers in the form of raises. Hourly wages, adjusted for inflation, rose only 0.3%, according to the Labor Department. In other words, companies shared only 6% of productivity gains with their workers. That compares to 58% since records began in 1947.

More from above article at link:

Jobs? You don't need no stinking jobs, say Republicans

[PotatoChip]

8. Greed, Pure and simple greed

I guess the almighty dollar is far more important to these companies then their disposable workers. :grr:

Thank you for the article an link. I'm looking forward to reading the rest when I get a chance.

[TBF]

43. The greed is rewarded under capitalism -

if you want to see the starving end, get rid of the economic system that is killing most of us.

[dkf]

80. That is why 10,000,000 illegal immigrants is devastating to wages.

It's pure economics.

[RaleighNCDUer]

106. You know what? Every fucking one of your ten million immigrants

could go home tomorrow, and it would not change the business climate one bit. All they'd do is ship MORE jobs overseas, to keep unemployment high, because THAT is what they want.

Illegal immigration is a red herring - a distraction to keep the proles fighting each other instead of storming the manor house.

[Enthusiast]

125. I agree. Illegal immigration is a red herring.

It serves to focus the anger a large segment of right wing Americans. Illegal immigration outrage is a RW tool.

[blueamy66]

129. you took the words right outta my mouth

thank you!!

[WatsonT]

172. Really, they'd ship those jobs overseas?

Interesting. What do you suppose illegals do here?

Pick lettuce, take care of kids, build houses, etc.

They work in jobs that by their very nature CANNOT be outsourced.

But just think about it: what does the availability of massive quantities of cheap labor do to the average value of the laborer?

[RedRoses323]

241. Kudos

:toast:

[hobbit709]

153. spouting the propaganda again.

[WatsonT]

174. Bingo

but apparently pointing out that blatant fact is racist or whatever.

I mean how could adding 10 million cheap laborers possibly affect the price of labor?

:sarcasm:

[Forkboy]

282. Did you support the Arizona Immigration Law like dkf does?

[Forkboy]

281. Man, you seem to hate immigrants.

You loved the Arizona shit when it went down, and now this.

[Vinee]

347. +10,000,000

[KamaAina]

348. Any data to back up that 10,000,000 figure?

By their very nature, undocumented (people are NOT "illegal"!) immigrants are notoriously difficult to count.

[monmouth]

6. That story is going to stay with me for weeks. I complain because I

really can't afford my favorite snacks or cigarettes anymore (incentive to quit, thank you very much) then read that story. Who knows what the young man's situation was, who was ill, weak, etc. Wow. I hope someone smacks me on the side of the head the next time I complain.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Hard times

[pipi_k]

9. She would have felt a whole lot worse

had that kid jumped in her car and taken off with the entire deal.

Her good heartedness aside, what sort of idiot leaves a car unlocked and running...even for a few seconds?


What if that kid...or someone else...had stolen her car and driven off in a panic running down some pedestrians or crashing into another car containing a mom and her kids, killing them all?


Kudos to your neighbor for caring about a starving young man, but really, her neglect could have been the cause of a real tragedy. Tell her next time to leave the car unlocked if she wants to be robbed, but shut the damned car off and take the keys.

[Mimosa]

12. ^ True. ^ But there are people from gentler eras and areas who used to do that

People like my sister who used to live in the 'country' sometimes do that. I know my mother used to do it too.

[pipi_k]

15. Well, the world hasn't been gentle

for some time now.

I live in the woods. I always lock my house up at night, and my car doors are locked at all times.

When I go anywhere I lock the car doors, even if it's only out to the dinky little family restaurant in town on Sunday mornings.

And that only takes care of the locking issue. I suppose if people don't care about stuff being stolen from their cars, let them do what they want...just don't complain to the police when it happens.

The other issue is leaving the car running. Like it couldn't jump out of gear for some strange reason and crash through a storefront or mow down a mom walking her baby along the sidewalk. I can see a foolish teenager doing this, but not a grown adult who should know better.

I seriously believe that anybody who leaves an unattended car running while s/he pops into a store for "just a minute" should have his/her license suspended for a while.

[Raine]

58. One time I saw a woman across the street leaving her car running to make a quick run into the post

office. The car jumped out of gear and took off in reverse, the woman saw it and ran after it screaming at people to "GET OUT OF THE WAY"!!! The car ended up knocking the fence down of a house across the street. It's a wonder no one was killed or injured and the woman didn't end up in real trouble. I bet she never left her car running again.

[reggie the dog]

113. I get out of a running car all the time.

in winter i start the car to warm it up, go inside, get my daugher, bring her out, put her in her seat all while the car is running. if the car manages to push the clutch down and shift itself into gear i will be truly amazed.

[CanSocDem]

131. It's all about "stuff".

"I suppose if people don't care about stuff being stolen from their cars, let them do what they want...just don't complain to the police when it happens."

Some people have it, others don't. This person clearly doesn't worry as much as you, about 'stuff'.

.

[pipi_k]

162. You bet

When you grow up not having a lot of stuff, it does come to have a certain meaning to you.

When my children were very small, we didn't have a lot, either. I would leave empty boxes on the pantry shelves to fool people into thinking we weren't as poor as we were. One person wasn't fooled, however. He checked the boxes, found they were empty, and then bought groceries for us.

We bought our clothing at the Salvation Army or Goodwill. We had almost nothing when my apartment was broken into one night and someone stole my old console stereo. The only comfort I had on days and nights when it was just me and the kids living in a shitty part of town in a six family tenement that more often than not would have fight going on outside the bedroom windows. My son has told me many times how he remembered waking up in the middle of the night and hearing the music playing softly, and being comforted enough to go back to sleep. Mom was there, with her music, and he was safe.


And yeah...my stuff. In my purse that was stolen was the one and only photo I had of my daughter who died at the age of 3 months. I probably should have left it home where it would be safe, but I wanted it with me at all times. The only photo I ever had is gone now.

That, probably more than anything, hurt the most. I got over the loss of my checkbook and ATM card and keys and makeup. They're replaceable. I'll never replace that photo.

I think unless you have walked and lived in someone else's shoes, it's just nasty to suggest that they shouldn't care about their "stuff".

[nichomachus]

21. Yeah, but in most places that's also against the law

Leaving a motor vehicle unattended with the engine running invites all sorts of mishaps, mischief, and even death.

[Philippine expat]

165. In some states leaving your car running is illegal

and if you do leave your car running and it does get stolen your insurance company
is not liable

[femrap]

23. I hate to see cars

'running.' But for a different reason....it's a damn waste of fuel and it is fucking polluting the air.

I live in a 4-season climate and people will go out and let their cars 'warm up' for 15 to 30 minutes. I just love the smell of gasoline as I walk by. Or leave their cars running while they go into the store and shop....just so it is warm for them.

I think it is disrespectful to pollute your community's air and to waste the Earth's Peak Oil.

I don't care if you lock your doors or not....I do, but only because as a teenager I found a man sitting behind the driver's seat waiting for me to get in. Mom always said, "Look in the back seat before you get in." Saved me from a terrible experience. So I lock. But I certainly try not to live my life in fear.

If you want to rob my house, go ahead. Just leave my physical being alone. I have insurance. But I have crappy stuff. Just a 19" TV and silly memorabilia. And my car isn't fancy.

One time a gang of boyz tried to steal my purse. I said, 'If you guys had any sense, you'd rob someone with money.' They left.

edit for typo

[eppur_se_muova]

42. People got started in this habit back when cars first came out ...

when you had to hand-crank your car to start it, you didn't want to shut it off if you didn't have to. With electric starters, this is no longer an excuse. I used to hear that the fuel used to start your car was about the same as what it took to idle the engine for ~one minute, so if you were going inside for more than a minute, you should just shut the engine off. Modern cars use even less fuel to start, so there's really no excuse for leaving the engine running, unless you are having mechanical trouble or really low temps and fear it might not restart. People just haven't adjusted their (non)thinking since the days of Model T's.

Here in the hot, humid South it's all too common to see people running their engines to keep the A/C going. I'll never forget seeing someone in a parking lot in MD running the AC in their SUV full blast with all the windows OPEN so they could smoke in the car without having to breathe their own second-hand smoke. It was no more than comfortably warm outside, and I could feel the icy blast as I walked past. It's like some people have a GHG quota to fill.

[blackbart99]

47. Please...its so simple....

I have 2 sets of keys....if I want to let it idle to warm it up I can lock it and no one but a real
thief will get it. How much do a couple of key copies cost...virtually nothing. And if you accidentally lock your keys in the car your good to go. If its the electronic key or a key with a chip
it will cost you more, but its worth it. Then go and donate your time at a homeless shelter and really
help these people.

[DeadEyeDyck]

126. Yes, we just got rid of that hand-cranked car last week

so it will be awhile before we get over the habit. LOL

[Never Stop Dancin]

337. I would be mega-pissed

if someone stole $300 worth of groceries from my car. It's okay to steal from me, but not from the store? How do they know I'm not poor too.

Was it okay for them to steal $20,000 worth of clothes too? Where does it end.

http://mj.933flz.com/script2/print.php?page=/pages/mainfeed.html&article_id=8538894&feed_id=204719

[The Doctor.]

26. And what if he was really a vampire?!?!

And he sucked her blood?

Or what if he used her laptop to hack into the DoD mainframe?

Or what if he took the car and ran into a nuclear missile truck?!?


Sure, good advice is nice, but I swear some people just pop in to wag their fingers.

[pipi_k]

30. Well, seeing as how the title of the OP only mentioned a theft...

and not how it happened, I doubt very much that I "just popped in to wag my finger".


Also, I believe it would be more likely that someone would steal the car and get involved in a tragic accident involving cars or humans than be a vampire, hit a truck carrying nukes, or use a laptop to hack into the DoD Mainframe.

If you're going to mock someone for thinking ahead, I guess it always helps to use extreme examples...

:eyes:

[The Doctor.]

100. A thief could have just as easily smashed a window and hot-wired the car!

SHIT! Better stop parking anywhere but your garage!

I'm 'mocking' someone, not for 'thinking ahead', but for taking advantage of an opportunity to admonish someone else for not thinking of the possibility that someone would steal groceries out of her car in the window of a minute or two.

I don't mind adding that anyone stealing a car is just as likely to drive cool and composed because they might have some degree of understanding that 'flooring it' attracts attention they don't want.

The likely-hood of any one of the above is equal to any other. NOT being paranoid about every damn thing you do all day is not a crime, and as much as you'd like to vilify everyone who lives with realistic expectations, the bottom line is the same;

You, "Pipi_K", have FUCKED UP many hundreds of times (at least) where you could or should have done something smarter, better, or with greater care than you did, but because the odds were against it, nothing horrible fucking happened to you.

The day that it does will be the same day you actually fucking get it.

Until that day, keep your car in your locked garage, order your groceries by mail, and for God's sake don't let your children walk or take the bus to school.

[pipi_k]

166. Oh believe me...I do "get it"

"You, "Pipi_K", have FUCKED UP many hundreds of times (at least) where you could or should have done something smarter, better, or with greater care than you did, but because the odds were against it, nothing horrible fucking happened to you.

The day that it does will be the same day you actually fucking get it."



What are the odds that putting a baby down to sleep will result in that baby's death?

I fucked up in 1974 by putting my daughter to sleep on her stomach. Just like millions of other parents have since time immemorial. Of course, I didn't know then what I know now. Nobody really did.

Now we do.

And I warn new parents all the time about the dangers of putting a baby to sleep on its stomach. At least they can benefit from my experience as result of what I didn't know.


So, my point is, if you even suspect something bad might happen if you do "A", you don't DO it.

The point is, you do whatever you can to make sure "A" doesn't happen. You don't make it EASIER for something bad to happen by being neglectful and uncaring, as was the case with the woman who left her car running and unlocked.

Life is full of hazards, and you can't get away from them except by hiding in a cave. It's the absolute HEIGHT of foolishness to invite trouble by making it easy on thieves and other miscreants.

[RayOfHope]

55. +1. n/t

[xxqqqzme]

97. Actually I was thinking the

poor kid was lucky it wasn't some gun toting, ready to defend my groceries dude.

[alp227]

274. right, i would never leave my car unlocked/running

but it's even worse to steal from such a car

[Mimosa]

10. To me this is the most important OP I have read on D.U. in a year.

It shows exactly what is going on in our country. Joblessness, lack of opportunities are making people desperate. :)

There is a primarily conservative board on which I in order to counter the Limbaugh/Fox News misinformation with facts, truth and history. Sometimes I am stunned, often to the point of depression, by the disdain and cruelty brainwashed rightwingers display toward those in need. But because there are enough people on that board (Yet Another Politics Board is its name) who may be the 'persuadable middle, I persist in my self-ordered 'mission'.

As a friend who'd founded another board said, I'm a first class researcher. But I wouldn't be able to accomplish much without relying on D.U.. The smartest people online regularly post here. :)

[rbnyc]

173. +1 (nt)

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. These are the stories that should be chain e-mailed.

[Obamanaut]

13. Don't leave the car running, or the keys in it, or unlocked. People

take things. The next thief might want not just groceries, but a car with laptop as well.

[pipi_k]

16. I only did this once...

back in the early 70s, and that's all it took for me to learn my lesson.

I was very young and very naive/stupid. My two young children were in the car, which was running, with the driver's door still open. I had gotten out to talk to someone at an auto body place. Not more than ten feet from the car...I was right there. Luckily. Because my son climbed into the front seat and put the car in gear and I was able to jump in and stop it.

I never never never did that again. Ever. Not even with the emergency brake on.

I shudder to think of what could have happened. :scared:

[shoutinfreud]

19. Really? You mean people steal things from cars?

Thanks for the tip.

[Obamanaut]

32. I bet the person in the story was surprised by this as well. nt

[Obamanaut]

353. You are certainly welcome. From many of the posts, one might gather

that people (some) think the locks on cars are simply an unrequested accessory, installed at the factory to increase the price of the automobile.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

22. That was my first thought, reading the OP

Though I fully sympathize with the young man's plight and also ask: "WTF is going on in this country that people are so desperate?"

But yea, never leave your car doors unlocked - not wise.

[quakerboy]

102. Why not?

I left my car unlocked for many years. I generally left my home unlocked as well. As a male, I guess I have less reason to worry about that. but my general strategy was that if someone else was going to steal my stuff, they probably needed it more than I.

I started locking while living with my sister and later with my wife, both of whom are habitual lockers. Ive gotten used to it. But if it weren't for that, I would probably go back to it. I don't have that much, and most of what is important to me are things that probably wouldn't be stolen. My computer is probably the main exception.

Back when I didn't lock, my van was riffled through a few times. Generally stole some change, maybe sunglasses or other minor items. It wasn't until I started locking my car that someone bothered to break a window and steal stuff, and then again later break in and take the stereo.

Though I guess I am somewhat the hypocrite, since I spent several hours today moving several tons of cement inside my fenceline so that it would be less likely to be stolen from the curb.

Leaving a car running.. that's a different story. I don't get that. But locking car doors strikes me as not all that important unless you have specific reason to be concerned

[reggie the dog]

114. if you have nothing of value in the car

leaving the doors unlocked is ok. if i have nothing of value in the car i will go pay at the gas station with the windows open and doors unlocked and to me 3 or 4 cds is nothing of value. someone wants to steal 2 dollars in change from my ashtray they can risk a punch in the mouth for 2 dollars.

[bigmonkey]

28. It's astonishing that this is the lesson you draw from this story.

Astonishingly petty and small.

[Obamanaut]

31. The Swayze character in the movie 'Roadhouse' said it nicely -

"Opinions vary" and you have yours.

The lesson is one to have been learned by the one who had stuff swiped. If you want to keep it, lock it up when out and about.

My guess would be that the person will lock the vehicle next time, knowing there are thieves running around.

[totodeinhere]

64. I disagree with you. Yes it is tragic that the young man was hungry enough to steal. But in today's

economy there are many more who are just as bad off who can't afford to be stolen from either. How could the young thief have been sure that the family that he stole from wouldn't be going hungry themselves after they got their groceries stolen? Maybe those groceries were bought with the remaining food stamps for the month.

Stealing is never right. Yes hunger isn't right either but the two are not mutually exclusive.

[Occulus]

81. "Stealing is never right."

That is actually untrue, and the reason involves food and water availability.

[reggie the dog]

115. stealing can be right

did you forget what your parent's taught you when they read you Robin Hood?

[Philippine expat]

210. No, I remember well what they taught me.

And that was nothing can every justify taking what is not yours.

[defendandprotect]

294. ... and fortunately we used to have courts/judges/jurors who recognized

extended circumstances --

That was before the rightwing rose to ensure punishment of the poor

and welfare for the rich --

[Cid_B]

318. Your honor...

... I shot that clerk in the face because he wouldn't give me the money! I need it for baby formula! and baby clothes... and maybe something for me... and my car payment...


Thieve are thieves.. period.. punkt..

[defendandprotect]

293. My grandmother certainly taught me that ...

"Of course you would always steal bread to feed your child" --

[lupinella]

112. Thanks.

Exactly what I thought.

[Divine Discontent]

49. every week I check in on ol' DU to see if there's any personal OP's and saw this member's stunning

post.... but more sad is that your "teaching moment" type of post centers on thievery and how to prevent it. Yes, it would be very sad to have anything stolen from you, but, if I had to have anything stolen, and nothing else taken - I would feel the least troubled if it was food, stolen by a person who appeared troubled about it as they ran off.

We all know that locks thwart most thievery, but, that message is far from the point that this OP has to make.

Some reflection is probably advisable...

[Obamanaut]

74. First time I've had a post rated 'stunning.' Thanks. nt

[ZombieHorde]

255. People do in my town all the time. Especially in the winter. nt

[w8liftinglady]

14. This brought tears to my eyes.

How can we be allowing this to perpetuate in our country?

In Dallas, blocks literally separate a microocosm where high-end shopping has flourished(Tiffany's , et al) and families are homeless on the street, begging for scraps.We are resembling the Third World we love to criticize more and more.
Bless your friend.

[lonestarnot]

17. Fucking A.

:cry:

[blueamy66]

18. This country has gone to shit.

I would gladly buy a homeless person some groceries....and I type this as I am watching Top Chef.....but eating veggies from my backyard garden....and my fiance is golfing at a resort


WTF?

[pipi_k]

20. Something neat that happened one time...

Years ago my mom was having some financial problems. She and her husband (my stepfather) were friends with one of my real dad's brothers. My favorite uncle. He was really a good shit.

Anyway, Mom and stepfather came home one day to find a couple of bags of groceries on their back porch. They couldn't imagine who had left them there, as there was no note or anything. They asked the neighbors and one of them described the man who had dropped them off...his car, etc.

It was my uncle.

I remember one time he bought me a winter jacket because I didn't have one.

That's the kind of guy he was. Sadly, he died in the mid 1980s.


So anyway, my point is, even if someone isn't homeless, you can still do something cool, like leave a bag of groceries on someone's doorstep if you know they're having trouble with money. Or if they have kids, leave toys or clothing.

I like doing anonymous cool stuff

:)

[femrap]

24. There should be

a 'Xmas in July.' People give to homeless shelters, domestic violence shelters, etc. in November and December.

There should be an effort made to replicate this in the summer.

And it doesn't just have to be for Xtians, either. Maybe simply 'Give Blessings in July.'

[pipi_k]

27. I know...and it's one of the reasons the Christmas season makes me sad...

People take a few weeks out of the year to do good things for others, then the rest of the year nobody gives a rat's ass.

Not even a lot of "Christians" who get all frothed up over what they perceive as the Atheists' Attack On Christmas.

[truedelphi]

75. I get bummed because so many industries lay people off right

Before Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Then as part of their PR, they donate some turkeys to the local food bank, as if that makes everything A-okay.

[pipi_k]

134. That too.

Merry Christmas my ass....

[blueamy66]

34. And I just posted about Christmas

without reading your post....but hey, it made me feel good and I'm sure she was a bit happy as well

[blueamy66]

33. Great story.

I try as well.

Sometimes we don't have enough for the extras.....and then sometimes I give a $5 bill to a homeless person. It's all relative, I guess.

My favorite story is giving a woman $10 around Christmastime...hoping she'd really use it....and she immediately walked into a 99 Cent store.....I smiled from ear to ear.

When I think that I have it bad, I think of others who have it much worse.

And, aren't Uncles cool???

[pipi_k]

53. I'll have to try that sometime...

give money to someone, I mean.

I do have my charities that I donate to, but there are times I'd really like the immediate feeling of having helped someone.

I think back to one time when I was waiting in the checkout line at Walgreens behind an elderly couple, who were handing over coupons, counting out change, and making sure that they had gotten every sale discount that was advertised in the flier. I should have jumped in and insisted on paying their bill. It wasn't all that much...less than $20. Don't know why I didn't...maybe I'm afraid the people will be embarrassed or insulted. I would much rather be able to do that sort of thing anonymously...

[blueamy66]

127. I've never done that

but will do so in the future.

We are not rich, but have enough for some good things...gonna think about others more now...

[Voice for Peace]

62. off topic but not all uncles are cool

some are egomaniacal arrogant child molesters

[pipi_k]

66. Yeah...

One of my BILs (uncle to my kids) was exactly that.

Actually he was a Fundy "Christian" child molester.

[blueamy66]

128. sorry

mine were all awesome

[defendandprotect]

142. "Anonymous" used to be a great old tradition of giving -- now it those wealthy who

"give" want their names on everything!!

[BoWanZi]

25. I know that the safety nets have been being attacked but there should be SOMETHING for that person

If you have no income or a tiny income, you can qualify for foodstamps. I feel bad for the thief but still, he should have gotten food stamps or some other sort of assistance.

[Leftist Agitator]

37. It depends on where you live.

In my state, if you are unemployed and don't have children, you don't qualify for food stamps, period. If you're working, fine, you'll be eligible for SNAP benefits, but if you're out of work, you're out of luck.

[coalition_unwilling]

51. What state is that, just out of curiosity? What are the unemployed

supposed to do, starve?

[Obamanaut]

39. If he keeps up his activities of stealing, he will end up with three hots

and a cot (jail time.)

[Heidi]

41. The OP says the thief was 14 to 16 years old. Could you navigate the social services system

well enough at 14-16 to feed yourself and/or your family? I know for sure I would not have had the first idea where to turn if I'd been hungry at that age.

[dana_b]

279. true - and who knows his situation

and what he is dealing with? When people are desperate, they will do what they have to. I don't blame him at all and I'm glad the lady was so sympathetic towards him.

[sixmile]

29. Where were the child's guardians?

Plenty of blame to go around if that's what we're doing here.

[reggie the dog]

117. perhaps he ran away

due to seeing younger siblings go hungry? perhaps his parents abused him? you would be amazed to find out how many young gang memebers are physicall, sexually, or mentally abused by their parents before they run away and become gangsters to eat.

[Le Taz Hot]

136. Maybe his entire family is destitute

and he's doing the only thing he knows how to do -- steal food. The only blame here is the failure of "the richest nation in the world" to provide for those in need.

[Cleita]

36. My husband was from Ireland. Back in the seventies,

before Ireland had become prosperous, he used to get a local newspaper published in his home town of Limerick. The newspaper published police reports and was full of articles of people who were arrested for stealing food, nothing more. I asked my husband why they would arrest people for being desperate and he would shrug his shoulders and replied that they were are poor nation, that there was no surplus like in this country to take care of desperate people. I guess we are getting there.

[Taverner]

45. It's been the dream of the rich for years

They want us poor, desperate and willing to do anything for a dollar.

[pnwmom]

57. I visited there then, and was shocked by the children

begging in the streets. I'd also been to France, England, and Scotland, where I'd never run into that. Only in Ireland, where the poverty then was so great.

I hope that the recent crash left them in the same predicament.

[defendandprotect]

95. Reminiscent of "Angela's Ashes" and "'Tis" by Frank McCourt ... but that was an even

more drastic time in Ireland --

As we have passed into fascism here and realizing how many mentioned intentions

of trying to leave over two decades now, if you come anywhere close to thinking

that way for yourself or just trying to get your kids out -- you have a little

understanding of what Ireland went thru during the alleged "potato famine" in

having their children leave the country -- often never to see them again.


This was another situation of elite greed which so devasted Ireland!

[eilen]

99. I had to stop reading Paradise Alley

as the description of the horror was so depressing and hopeless. I did pick it up again and finish it (very good book). That guy (Kevin Baker) describes poverty in a manner that rivals Upton Sinclair's The Jungle.

[defendandprotect]

143. Not familiar with it --

but should I see the book, I'll try to browse it --

:)

[eilen]

180. It is similar to Gangs of NY--but in book form

And outlines the history of the main characters-- 2 of which survive the Irish holocaust to board a ship to the US, survive the ship, landing and get into the city. One is a young woman, the other is a young psychotic man. Set in the time of the Civil War, the drama unfolds as the draft riots form in NYC. There is an upper middle class journalist who narrates part of it and who is in love with a young prostitute that lives on the same lane as the female main character. It is gripping but very depressing as he is very descriptive. My son voted a big no halfway through the audio book on a long trip. Baker also wrote Wonderland, a story of a very poor Jewish family in a NY ghetto. That was very good.

[Hardrada]

103. We saw children begging right in front of the British Museum in London

in 2000. Germany even with its immense economy has beggars too. We've given them money on the city streets right in front of very expensive shops.

[defendandprotect]

94. The wealth of nations isn't in paychecks...it's in land, natural resources, animal-life .....

and people aren't poor they are impoverished -- made poor by those elites who

monopolize the commonwealth -- creating class structures -- underlings.

We had a New Deal that we failed to protect -- and here we are now!


If you truly want a democracy then you have to dump capitalism --

Capitalism is intended to move the wealth and natural resources of a nation from the

many to the few -- and it has done that very successfully everywhere it has been applied.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime.





Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized Patriarchal Religion -- and its economic invention =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity

[Le Taz Hot]

137. We have plenty of surplus in this country.

It's just all concentrated at the top.

[WatsonT]

175. We have plenty of food, we're just paying extra to turn it in to gas and burn it

[jwirr]

38. Your neighbor is a wonderful woman. As to a way to help - don't

know if this fits your community - what about a community garden where anyone in need can come to help & receive some of the food? This young boy was sorry and I would bet he would help in a garden like that.

[southernyankeebelle]

40. I was at a traffic light yesterday. While waiting we say a disabled vet asking

for a hand out. He was clean looking but you could tell he needed help. I only had about $3.00 on me and gave it to him. He was happy with that and said god bless you. When the light changed I left and started crying and told my husband it was so sad people in this country are treating our follow citizens terrible. Shame on this country.

[defendandprotect]

96. Remember that we used to give people who asked for it $$ in the street ... but

that was highly discouraged -- made an evil thing to do!!

And homeless have been swept from the streets -- we're not supposed to see them --

and actually, they've been so thoroughly disappeared that we don't see them anymore

or acknowledge them -- 3 million of them and growing!!


:(


Thank you for your post!!

[reggie the dog]

118. i often bring an extra joint in my pocket when going downtown in chicago

and when i see a hard up person i ask them if they want a joint, if they say yes, it is theirs. i usually have little money, but for some reason i am able to have weed to give out....

[Taverner]

44. Society is breaking down. That is what is happening. And it's been the plan all along.

People like the Koch Bros love hearing stories about desperate people, because they might be able to reduce benefits, lower pay, etc. This is what they want.

The days of Noblesse oblige are long gone, and are replaced by the vampire mentality of the rich. In fact, they're making TONS of money, and we let them.

I keep hoping that some day, someone gets pissed enough to fight back. And I don't mean carrying signs and singing songs. That's lunchtime entertainment for the Koch Bros and their ilk.

Unless the rich start getting really really scared, then we will continue to be abused, and it will be CELEBRATED.

And if they do get scared, they either double down and then a real class war begins (that is, two sides fighting, not just one) or they back off.

When that comes, it won't be pretty, and the good guys, long since dead, will not win.

But at least the rich will finally lose.

And that has to count for something.

[Raine]

63. Yes this is EXACTLY what they want but WHY

they want to live in such a world is beyond me. Eventually they will have to fight to keep the impoverished masses from taking their stuff violently from them. They will have to lock themselves behind gates. Continually look over their shoulders to keep from being knifed in the back when coming from their fancy social events. They will have their expensive watches and rings ripped from their bodies. I remember reading how the rich in Victorian times would have their shoes stolen off their feet as their servants carried them across the filthy gutters. The poor took the shoes for their jeweled buckles to sell so they could eat. WHY would anyone want to live in that kind of world??? Becareful what you wish for, you might get it and it will be the worse nightmare you could ever imagine ... even for yourself!

[Taverner]

68. Because they can get blowjobs for $10

I honestly think it's that simple.

[closeupready]

229. Given how big sex tourism seems to be, that's not as hyperbolic

as some may think.

[defendandprotect]

141. Great question -- K/R for your post -

I think that's the point where ordinary people give up thinking about elites and

capitalism because they realize it reaches a suicidal and violent point and they

know it's not about anything a healthy person desires -- they find it difficult to

believe that anyone would want it.

But patriarchy and violence are mirror images of one another --

and it's the only way the can rise.

In order for the rightwing to be where they are now it took political violence --

50 years of it --

Capitalism, itself, is based on exploitation of all nature to a suicidal point --

how often do people ask the "WHY?" of that?


Great post --

:)

[raccoon]

247. Great post. Some places in Latin America are like this already.

And undoubtedly in other parts of the world as well.

I agree, I don't see why they'd want to live in a society like that.

[defendandprotect]

139. Agree with your analysis -- especially of Koch Bros which funded DLC --

but we have to show strength and unity in non-violent ways --

and there are many ways to do that --

from "lights out" at signalled times -- to taking our cars off the roads for

15-20 minutes at a time at signalled times.

Short strikes showing strength -- leading to longer strikes --

But, are we united -- and who is even trying to unite us in actions?

As far as I can see, even senior citizens aren't united in America -- except thru

AARP -- an insurance company!


:)

[ebbie15644]

46. Reading this story

I cried. The news love to report on celebs but they should be our nations concious on issues like these!

[Lucinda]

48. Thank you for this...

[Hubert Flottz]

50. Reality is starting to overpower the bullshit blitz.

America is failing in too many ways.

[Snoutport]

52. you made me cry. Poor kid.

[saras]

54. Everyone who locks up out of paranoia has already been defeated by the conservatives...

Advocating that everyone who already isn't that paranoid just adapt, and live behind locks and walls all the time - sorry, that's what I'd expect from the radical right. The world I'm working for would first check as to whether the car was running long enough to worry about pollution - depending on the car, the cutoff is somewhere between fifteen seconds and five minutes, longer with older cars. Pre-fuel injection cars are VERY wasteful of fuel on startup.

Other than that, OF COURSE you shouldn't have to lock up a car if you're just gone for a few minutes. A world with so many criminals that that isn't worth the risk is a dystopia, not a functional civilization.

[pipi_k]

61. Sometimes they really ARE out to get you...

I don't call it "paranoia". I call it good judgement.


If I had been more "paranoid" about locking up my mountain bike it wouldn't have been stolen from my hallway.


If I had been more "paranoid" about locking up my purse, it wouldn't have been stolen from beneath my desk at work.


If you've never scrimped and saved up the money to buy a bike, then I guess it's hard to imagine caring more about what you've lost than about the impact of an idling car on the world.

Same with the loss of a purse containing money, bank information, irreplaceable photos, meds, house and car keys, drivers license. At that point, I don't give a shit about global warming. I just want my stuff back and I don't want to lie awake nights worrying about whether the thieve(s) will use my keys to break into my home.

Also...I'm not sure whether one idling car in a parking lot or on the side of the road is going to make the same impact on the environment as, say, a couple of thousand of them stuck and idling on a four lane highway in LA for three hours.

[totodeinhere]

65. +1

[Raine]

69. Yes, exactly. nt

[Libertas1776]

91. +1

[ohnoyoudidnt]

85. There have been several thefts around here lately.

Thieves are going around to different neighborhoods at night and checking for unlocked cars, then stealing everything they can. A few idiots even left guns in their cars. This is a good area too, there's usually low criminal activity. This is people leaving their cars unlocked overnight and not for a few minutes, but there are still many people who feel safe doing so. People can get carried away to the point of being paranoid, but they should at least be cautious and aware of the risks around them.

[christx30]

56. I kind of feel bad for the kid

but at the same time, I would feel very angry if that had happened to me. I have 2 jobs (about 70 hours a week) to get what little I have, and I'm about a month away from getting insurance for the first time in two years. I don't make very much, and what little I have goes to feed my two kids. If I lost two bags of groceries like that there wouldn't be anything to replace them with for 2 weeks. I don't know if I would chase him down, but I would certainly not want to go give him my last bag. Course, since I lost my driver's license (stupid surcharge that I couldn't afford to pay, they suspended my "privilege" to drive), I spend something along the lines of 4 hours on the bus each day to get to and from one job. If that makes me selfish, then so be it. But I care more for my own kids than I do for some one else.

[billh58]

60. According to some

on DU, she had the right to, and should have, shot him.

[david13]

67. How do you jump to the conclusion that he was drivin by hunger

and desperation.
Is it at all possible that he was driven by drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes? Or do you just know everything, because that is your belief?
The only reason people steal is due to hunger and desperation?
In Mexico, almost the entire country lives in constant hunger and what would be desperation if they aspired to all the electronic goodies and junk that americans have come to take for a right. The computer games, the cell phone, the gps, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseaum.
However, none of them steal. Very very few of them steal. Only the greedy ones steal, and it is not unusual for them to come to the usa so there are many things to steal. In Mexico there ain't much to steal.
If this kid was 14 or 16 then is there no adult, no parent, no guardian responsible for him? Or has he decided to reject their authority?
Why do we presume that the country, the capitalists, the government is responsible for every aspect of every life?
Are there no parents? Is no one responsible for their own actions?
Is is possible that this kid could work somewhere? Or is that categorically ruled out?
In conclusion, I call bs on your entire story, and the response of about 90 percent of those responding.
dc
PS Do not leave the car running, and unattended.

[pipi_k]

70. Well that's one of the many thoughts I had...

as I wondered how anyone could lip read from some distance as someone was running away.

Was it really, "I'm sorry"?

Or was it, "Fuck you!"?


I dunno, quite honestly.

I don't know if I'd call bullshit on the story, but there are lots of questions...

[defendandprotect]

144. Be on the safe side ...

always think the worst of humanity!

[pipi_k]

158. Not sure

if that's sarcasm or what...


So I'll choose not to think the worst of your intent, and assume it wasn't meant to be sarcastic.


How's that?

[defendandprotect]

161. You've done what you needed to do --

What I am saying to you is that it is always easier to judge the poor

and powerless --

and always harder to judge the powerful among us --

[pipi_k]

169. Hah...

See, now...if you knew me better, you would know that I have a general contempt for the rich and powerful.

I used to be somewhat poor myself, so I know what it's like.


Somewhere else in this thread I related how at one time I left empty boxes on my pantry shelves to make it look like we had food.

I and my kids lived on Welfare for a while... $ 234.00 a month. My rent was $115.00. The remainder went for luxuries like heat and lights and clothing and maybe an occasional treat for the kids.


So please...I don't need anyone telling me...or suggesting...that I "judge the poor" and give a free ride to the rich and powerful. I know what it's like to be poor. It sucked BIG TIME.

[defendandprotect]

220. Ever more reason why you should have some empathy ...

for this individual -- not less.

[pipi_k]

239. Who said I didn't have empathy?

All I'm saying is that people here are making it a solid, undeniable FACT that someone stole X because of Y.

I guess you missed my post somewhere below where I related a story of the man I knew who stole things he didn't even need.

Food...he was NOT starving.

Emery boards...WTF? He had never filed his nails in his life.

Disposable razors. Uh...he had a beard and mustache.

and more.


Sometimes people steal cars just for a joyride. For the thrill of stealing something and riding around in it for a while.

People often steal stuff they don't really need.

[defendandprotect]

270. Because you are so attached to the idea that someone you don't know --

someone in a simple story -- is a criminal --

And because you're so hooked on the idea that people steal for no reason --

We don't know if you were actually ever poor, or starving -- you may be

someone who writes things like that to try to prove their point --

And because you write NOTHING of the corruption of corporations nor their

exploitation of humanity in THIS thread --

But whatever your point of view, it has brought no enlightenment to the thread

just a mean-spiritedness.

Bye --

[pipi_k]

277. I'm sorry,but...

A person who steals from someone else IS a criminal.

I don't care if it's a car or a purse or a bag of groceries or even a fifteen dollar watch.

If you go into the grocery store and buy grapes and eat half of them while shopping, then don't say anything to the clerk, you're a thief.

If it's not yours and you take it, you're a thief. Real simple.


But that's not the point here. The real point is that people here are so invested in believing that a person who stole a bag of groceries is homeless, starving, and in God knows what other shitty condition that could possibly afflict humankind.

Without even knowing the kid or WHY he stole.


The point here is that there COULD be other possibilities, and I've said it downthread a bit. Is it possible he's hungry? Yes. Is it a written in stone FACT?

No.

People are acting like it IS a fact. It's not.

[defendandprotect]

278. All are presumed innocent until proven guilty --

bye --

[david13]

284. Presumed. Do you know what presumed means? And the term

is merely a presumption IN THE COURT. This ain't no court. It's a public forum.
What is a presumption? A fiction. What is a fiction? A thing not true.
The facts say he was guilty. You were given the facts stating that he did the act. The stealing. The taking without paying or permission.
You can't change the facts. You can't go back to the scene and change things around. You must accept the facts as they are given to you and deal with that.
dc

[defendandprotect]

287. What you are saying is that you allow for no extended circumstances, for no second chances,

for no compassion --

Perhaps you'd like a hanging?

bye --

[Obamanaut]

286. The thief was gulty as soon as he took the stuff. The 'presumed' business

is the part of the system that allows people to be released on bail.

And, even if a court found him 'not guilty', he would still not be 'innocent' - because he took the stuff.

[defendandprotect]

288. Obviously, the woman who suffered the loss and the neighbor relating the

the story saw and/or felt the impact of what had happened --

and were moved to concern and compassion.

You want to declare someone "guilty" -- but of what? Of being hungry?


You fail to acknowledge what is going on in the nation --

and you're carrying the big stick of "law and order" over two bags of groceries?

:eyes:

I'd love to see what you write regularly about the true criminals in our society --

our corrupt government officials and corrupt capitalists and elites who are have

been stealing from this nation and its citizens for so very long!

You've probably been calling for them and their families to be burned at the stake!?


I'm sure you want to nationalize the oil industry --

and re-regulate capitalism --

Put war profiteers in jail --

and stop anyone exploiting labor --

[pipi_k]

296. Nobody is "guilty of being hungry"

Plenty of people are hungry in this country who don't run around stealing from others.

I hope you're not suggesting that just about any criminal act is justifiable according to the criminal's circumstances...


Also...this all leads right back to the basic argument, which is that nobody here knows for a FACT that the kid robbed the groceries because he was hungry.

For all any of us knows, he could have been having the munchies from smoking weed and didn't want to pay for them. Or he could have been an alcoholic hoping to find some mouthwash or vanilla extract or something else with alcohol in it.

There are other possibilities just as likely as the "poor starving child" one.

[defendandprotect]

299. The larger question now seems to be how you ignore what the neighbor is saying --

and why you have become so obsessed about two bags of groceries to the point where

you have actually suggested that the neighbor made up the story to cover her guilt

at leaving her car unlocked -- !!

And that not being enough as yet, you're trying to suggest the kid may have been a

drug addict or an alcoholic! --

You just can't resist the low road can you?



Just in case you don't recall what you wrote ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1188775&mesg_id=1191478

[pipi_k]

301. I never said the neighbor made up the story

What I said was that perhaps her mind wants her to believe things she may not have seen in order to make her feel somewhat better about having been robbed.

You know?

Like when parents lose a child in a senseless war, and they make themselves feel better by believing that the kid died "to keep America safe". Or some other worthy reason.

So perhaps the neighbor WANTED to believe that the kid mouthed the words, "I'm sorry" with a look of sorrow on his face as he ran away (who knows how far away he was when all this happened, BTW).

It would be easier to accept the theft if she believed it was some poor starving child who NEEDED the groceries rather than someone who might just enjoy stealing shit from open cars, no matter what it is.

And maybe in the excitement of the moment, a 22 year old sort of looked like a pathetic 14 or 15 year old kid.

People see and hear things through their own internal filters.

[defendandprotect]

313. You suggested she maybe made up the whole story .... Come on... own up!! It's right here...

On edit...it suddenly occurred to me that maybe that whole story was just an attempt by the OP's neighbor to make herself feel less stupid for leaving the car running.

People often feel less anger after they've been robbed if they make themselves believe that perhaps the thief needed it more than they did.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1188775&mesg_id=1191478


and, of course, in another post you've suggested that the kid may be a drug addict or

alcoholic -- !!

:eyes:

[kestrel91316]

321. For some folks, it's ALWAYS about property and property rights......

[pipi_k]

341. yes, it is...

Because if you've never had stuff stolen from you, you can't understand that it's not just about the "stuff", it's also a violation of yourself, no matter what was stolen.


and if you've never had much, and then at some point you do, you want to keep it.


Also...and I'm not sure of what you know about the subject, but there are people who keep stuff because of severe anxiety disorders. For them their stuff symbolizes security.

so I think it would be nice for people to learn why stuff can mean so much to some of us instead of being judgmental about it.

[Lance_Boyle]

349. Well, theft usually is.

It is wrong to violate other people's rights by taking their property. Not such a tough concept.

[Obamanaut]

320. It isn't that I *want* to declare someone guilty, but it is true that if someone

takes your stuff and runs away with it - he is in fact guilty. He is in fact a thief. You might, out of the goodness of your heart, decide not to press charges, but he remains a thief nonetheless.

Letting someone take your stuff will not correct all the other things you mentioned. All those other things will still be there, and YOUR stuff will still be gone.

[defendandprotect]

333. So two bags of groceries could be more important ....

than two illegal and immoral wars of aggression pushed for 10 years?

Or worthy, perhaps, of even more attention than 50 million Americans living on food stamps?

Even courts/judges/jurors find extenuating circumstances -- and we used to

be proud of showing mercy -- !!

:eyes:

[Obamanaut]

335. *I* did not say one of your examples is more/less important than

another. *I* said as soon as a bag of groceries (or whatever) is taken, whoever took them is a thief. There is no way to sugar coat, or extenuate, or justify, or anything - the person is a thief. He can be forgiven, or not prosecuted, or nor punished - but he is a thief. He took something that wasn't his to take, he took it without permission - he is an effing thief.

There is criminality in the examples you've used. There should be punishments. There probably won't be. There have been no indictments. And yet, there have been no cries here about "presumed innocence until 'proven' guilty" for them. Now, why do you suppose that is?

The simple answer is that 'grocery thief' tugs at the heartstrings, the other doesn't.

All the congresspeople who regularly vote for continued funding for the acts you mention - have you voted for their reelection? If the answer is yes, then you are complicit. Ponder that.

[pipi_k]

342. Exactly....and on top of it...

the person who stole quickly learns that he can get what he wants by stealing.

The first time might be very difficult.

The second time...less difficult.

After that, it becomes a habit. Done without a moment's regret.

[pipi_k]

292. And yet...

lots of people here pronounce judgement on others all the time.


No presumption of innocence for Republicans and accused rapists and Teabaggers (ALL of whom get called "racist", BTW).

Police who get accused of brutality aren't even given the benefit of the doubt most of the time here. If some guy says he was "attacked for no reason", well then, by God, that's exactly how it happened.


Either EVERYBODY is "presumed innocent" of whatever bad thing we want to think of them, or nobody is.

You can't pick and choose based on personal bias.

[defendandprotect]

298. You're offended Du'ers don't give "presumption of innocence" to GOP and accused racists?

And T-baggers?

And, might it possibly be that they are called "racist" when there is evidence for that?

You're also offended that police officers shown brutalizing citizens are judged to be wrong?

And you're comparing two bags of groceries with all of that?

You're thinking and values are way out of balance to say the least --

:eyes:





And yet...
Posted by pipi_k
lots of people here pronounce judgement on others all the time.


No presumption of innocence for Republicans and accused rapists and Teabaggers (ALL of whom get called "racist", BTW).

Police who get accused of brutality aren't even given the benefit of the doubt most of the time here. If some guy says he was "attacked for no reason", well then, by God, that's exactly how it happened.


Either EVERYBODY is "presumed innocent" of whatever bad thing we want to think of them, or nobody is.

You can't pick and choose based on personal bias.

[pipi_k]

303. I am saying that

It's not right to pronounce an entire group of people as something based on what some of them do or say.


Not all cops are brutes.

Not all Republicans are stupid pigs who care only about themselves.

Not all teabaggers are "racist"

That is what I'm saying.


People here decide that EVERYONE in a particular hated group is the same way. They're ALL presumed guilty of the same thing.

Although the ironic part is that some of the same behavior on the "Liberal" side is fine. What behavior people are willing to tolerate seems to depend largely on which side of the political spectrum the behavior happened.

That is what offends me. Hypocrisy.

[defendandprotect]

312. What you said is very clear from your original post ...

and this one isn't much better -- !!

So now it's "hypocrisy" at the center of this OP?

The neighbor's impression of what happened was sympathy and compassion for someone

she felt showed sorrow --


And with all that we have recited to you and all that you in turn recite to us about

the unfairness of DU'ers in judging others ---

Let's look at what YOU offered . . .

A suggestion that this neighbor is lying about what happened because she felt guilty

about leaving her car unlocked -- :eyes:

And new suggestions that the kid may be a drug addict or alcoholic -- :eyes:

And what "facts" do you have to support any of that?



Your original post, in case you've forgotten it --

And yet...
lots of people here pronounce judgement on others all the time.


No presumption of innocence for Republicans and accused rapists and Teabaggers (ALL of whom get called "racist", BTW).

Police who get accused of brutality aren't even given the benefit of the doubt most of the time here. If some guy says he was "attacked for no reason", well then, by God, that's exactly how it happened.


Either EVERYBODY is "presumed innocent" of whatever bad thing we want to think of them, or nobody is.

You can't pick and choose based on personal bias.


And all of that as opposed to a kid and two bags of groceries!!


hmmm.....

[Cid_B]

317. She saw him steal her food...

... she knows this. It is a fact.

That kid is a fucking thief. Period.

He might be other things but he can tack on criminal. Got no patience for folks that take things that aren't there.

Like any criminal he picked a target that he thought he could take advantage of with the least chance of getting caught.

[defendandprotect]

334. And there are is no such thing as extenuating circumstances ...?

Our courts, Judges certainly have understood extenuating circumstances in days

past -- days when we were proud of showing mercy --

a way back before we became meanspirited --

But -- again -- I'd love to see what you write in this length and width about corporations

which steal from Americans every day without accountability!

What you might have to say about Big Pharma, for instance, which rips off American patients

every day on drug prices -- every last one of the drug companies having defrauded Medicare.

What did you have to say about the financial coup and what should happen to those who pulled

that off? Perhaps burning at the stake?

Law and order is nice -- but trying to apply it to this story is misplaced vigilance --

especially when it can rarely be found when really serious stuff is going down --

[Cid_B]

338. Uh huh...

Look you can talk about other issues all you like.. and I'm sure you will.

"Law and order is nice -- but..."

So its ok to steal from a 7-11 to feed your baby? Of course not..

Kid is a fucking criminal who robs women.

Lastly, if your child came home, suspended for stealing lunch money, but he explained that all the other kids are doing it so its ok. Would you accept that?

All these entities are stealing so its ok for a teenager to do it?

It is just as wrong to steal 5 bucks from Bill Gates wallet as it is from a single mom of 5. A thief is a thief...

[defendandprotect]

345. Still don't see anything about the real criminals in our society -- corporations --

and corrupt politicians --

Bill Gates is stealing from America every day in every way -- when you figure

that our, we might get somewhere in this conversation!

[Cid_B]

350. OK...

Right now you are stuck at the level where robbery of women is ok because someone somewhere did something you consider illegal/immoral.

Not sure where to go from there.

:shrug:

[Philippine expat]

346. Corporations rip off consumers, check

Pharmacy companied rip off patients, check
Madoff ripped off thousands of people, check
This young man ripped off groceries, check
All that means is they are all thieves

[david13]

201. I always think the best. But humanity has long showed me it's

worst behavior. Ever hear of drugs and alcohol, and cigarettes. Ever been out there on the streets, under the overpasses, down by the railroad tracks, with those people down there? I have. Many times. They rarely show too much good. At least not when the drugs, alcohol and cigarettes are around.
dc

[defendandprotect]

221. We have a fake Drug War, Wiretapping, Torture/Rendition -- corporate fascism ...

and you're hung up on "alcohol, drugs and cigarettes"?

People turn to drugs and alcohol when life doesn't make sense for them --

and when corporations are in control of our lives it rarely does make sense.

Cigarettes? What are you doing ... keeping track of everyone else's sins?


Did you happen to notice that corporations/tobacco companies pushed cigarette

smoking for 50 or more years -- while denying that they caused cancer?

Do you recall anyone telling you that they even used fake doctors to sell

cigarettes to Americans for profit?

Or that they pushed cigarattes to the underaged, especially by using ads

featuring adults who actually looked like teenagers or younger -- ?

Americans had to pick up the burden of health care for those suffering cancers

because of tobacco. Drug companies have done all they could to avoid accountability.



And we should treat drug addiction as we treat any other health issue -- with

medical care.



"Beware of those with a strong urge to punish" --

[david13]

234. Yeah, more bs. People use drugs because the government makes them do it?

Pure bs and insanity.
People use drugs because the major corporations make them do it?
What wacko planet did you drop in from.
Why should the government and the corporations be accountable if you don't want anybody to be accountable for their own personal actions? Ergo ...
dc

[reggie the dog]

264. where did they say that people use drugs because of the government?

they said that people use drugs when life doesnt make sense to them.

and yes corporations have MARKETING TEAMS which are there to convince people to buy shit they don't need. corporations would not invest money in marketing teams if there were no return for their investment.

alcohol and tobacco have lots of ads for them to make them look "sexy" "cool" and what not. individuals share repsonsibility with the marketing teams. no as for illegal drugs there is no marketing effort, but by making them illegal there is the thrill of the forbidden fruit. compare the low cannabis use rate in the netherlands where it is sold in stores with the high rate in places like spain, the uk, france or the usa where it is illegal for recreational use and sold on the black market.

[defendandprotect]

271. Only YOU are saying anything like that -- but clearly you are out of debate --

Bye --

[david13]

285. Bye means you are out, young lady. dc

[defendandprotect]

289. By "Bye," I mean you are not yet quite on ignore -- -

but that you're not saying anything worth hearing --

[reggie the dog]

227. rarely show good?

i spend many a night in my youth smoking weed, and hanging out with people where were drinking beer, smoking weed and cigs, often times we were under an underpass if it was raining and would run into some of the other folks down there. I have given homeless people weed to smoke, beer to drink and food to eat and have never, not once, been robbed by them. perhaps it was because i didnt look like i had much money or because i was a young man but chicago is supposed to be a very 'mean' city and i have never had a problem there. a female cousin of mine was robbed on the el late at night by someone with a knife but that is the worst event in my entire entourage.

[david13]

235. The OP was about stealing? And you see good in that? Where?

What perversion is it that shows you good in stealing?
dc

[reggie the dog]

243. i never said there was good in stealing

but i can EXCUSE stealing food if one is hungry while also understanding that it is not right for the victim to have less food either. i had a friend who lived under a bridge for 6 months and you said you saw little good from people under bridges so i had to chime in about that.

[defendandprotect]

272. Interesting ...

[uppityperson]

228. "I'm sorry" and "fuck you" lip read the same to you? Huh, explains a lot

[pipi_k]

242. Did I say they did?

I said the person who thought she saw something might not have seen correctly.

Especially as someone is running away.


And yeah, I guess if you want to get into personal insults, it probably DOES "explain a lot". I'm partly deaf in one ear. Very often I can't hear people, and have to watch their mouths as they speak. The person has to be within a few feet of me so I can be sure I understand correctly. And yes, even then I don't get it.


So unless someone is TRAINED in lip reading, that person can't be trusted to make a judgement on what someone else may or may not have said while running away and about to turn a corner 20 or more feet away.

[Libertas1776]

73. wow

im glad somebody finally said something along those lines. Instantly, everyone here believes the OP's assumption that this person stole out of desperation and hunger, somehow related to our present society and shit economy. Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it likely? I don't think so. Its just as possible that he has a drug or alcohol problem or a behavioral problem or maybe a bad or abusive home situation (if he was that young, child services should be alerted).

Believe it or not, there are truly disingenuous people out there who are stealing....to steal. Plain and simple. Don't get me wrong, i know damn well first hand this country is in the toilet right now, but im a little disturbed that everyone here immediately just knee jerks to believe the OP witnessed some sort scene ripped out of some Oliver Twist poverty-scape.

I don't doubt this particular person is desperate. You have to be desperate to steal. But to assume its somehow instantly related to a break down of our society and a massive regression back to Dickensian times is hyperbole to the max. There are plenty of people who are as bad, if not worse off than this person (if he really was stealing to feed himself with no other apparent alternative)and who would walk by the OP's car and never break a step. And if they did, it would probably be only to tell the numbskull he or she left the door unlocked and the car running!

[pipi_k]

76. Now that you mention it...

how ironic would it be if that kid got caught stealing from someone else and it turned out he's from a family that was able to buy groceries. I wonder how many here would feel like morons for assuming it was a sign of the imminent breakdown of society from poverty. I wonder if we'd even hear about "the rest of the story".


Is it probable? I don't know.


But I do know that anything is possible...


On edit...it suddenly occurred to me that maybe that whole story was just an attempt by the OP's neighbor to make herself feel less stupid for leaving the car running.

People often feel less anger after they've been robbed if they make themselves believe that perhaps the thief needed it more than they did.

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

290. You're suggesting story was made up by neighbor so she'd feel less stupid?

On edit...it suddenly occurred to me that maybe that whole story was just an attempt by the OP's neighbor to make herself feel less stupid for leaving the car running.

People often feel less anger after they've been robbed if they make themselves believe that perhaps the thief needed it more than they did.

:shrug:



:nuke:

[pipi_k]

309. Not "made up"

I'm saying that her mind may have caused her to "see" things that did not actually exist.

Like a "starving 15 year old kid" who could very well have been a young looking 23 year old adult.

Like "seeing" someone mouth the words "I'm sorry" while that person runs away. Unless she's a professional lip reader, I would seriously question that observation.


Years ago I actually had someone accuse me of giving him the middle finger when I hadn't done any such thing.

One time a friend stayed at my house and we had been around the corner and down the street hanging out with some kids at a local schoolyard. As we rounded the corner to go back to my house, a car came up the street and stopped at the stop sign, then went on its way on the main thoroughfare. We hadn't even been IN anyone's car that night. But my mother, who was on the porch at the time insisted that she SAW us get out of that car and I got grounded. Based on what she thought she saw.


People see shit all the time that they want to see.

[defendandprotect]

314. HERE: "Maybe whole story was just attempt by OP's neighbor to make herself feel less stupid"

On edit...it suddenly occurred to me that maybe that whole story was just an attempt by the OP's neighbor to make herself feel less stupid for leaving the car running.

People often feel less anger after they've been robbed if they make themselves believe that perhaps the thief needed it more than they did.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1188775&mesg_id=1191478


So people keep accusing you of things you didn't do, eh?

Years ago I actually had someone accuse me of giving him the middle finger when I hadn't done any such thing.

People see and hear things through their own internal filters.

People see shit all the time that they want to see.



Sometimes you sound like you're in a confessional -- !!

[Occulus]

82. We believe her because the laptop and the GPS were still there

Jesus tapdancing Christ. I honestly do not understand the mentality of people like you, who instantly believe the worst of anyone who does anything remotely wrong.

How the fuck can you be even a little bit judgmental on the 'thief' (I use that word as loosely as possible in this case) described here? The guy left behind several hundred dollars' worth of electronics- items he could easily have sold for a higher value than the food he did steal- and he didn't do that. He left those items behind.

Really, you and the other one you agreed with sound like Inspector Javert, and for the exact same fucking reasons- and yes, I've read the original translation from the French all the way through four or five times, so I'm in a position to confidently make that comparison. It takes a seriously prejudicial mind to judge in this case, given that he left behind the real valuables in the car.

He was obviously hungry, and it's a safe bet he stole so much food because there were other equally hungry mouths in the house. Oh, and there's a whole laundry list of reasons he and his might have been denied food aid, not one of which affects the actual hunger he and his were probably feeling!

I've known real thieves in my life, I've known people who were desperate for this or that amount of money who have been thieves, but never, not once, ever, have I considered someone so desperately hungry that they would steal food and leave behind something easily available of higher value than the food to be a 'thief'.

I consider those people hungry. And I completely forgive them.

Seriously- what the hell is wrong with you?

[Libertas1776]

86. Excuse me but...

I take great offense to the way you responded to me and your explicit, immature language. However, I will take the higher road and not resort to responding in such a manner other than to state my case clearly and not sling personal spews of vitriol.

Nothing, and i repeat, Nothing i have said has been discounted by the fact that none of the expensive things were stolen. And what exactly is your definition of hungry? I could be hungry and walk by someone's car and see food and snatch it. My hunger problem satiated in a flash.
And once again, i do not discount that the person could still have personal, private problems and issues (issues, abuses at home) Did that ever occur to you i wonder? That this person is not being properly fed or cared for because his parents are bums (And before u flame away, i mean that they blow their money on drugs or booze or something, not because they can't afford to feed their child!)
No its because of the economy and our society eroding at the seams. Never! Never could this incident have occurred at any juncture in the history of our nation except in the throes of economic trouble. And never could an adolescent steal some food from some person's unlocked car without the reason being related to some greater hyperbolic socio-economic tidal wave of moral collapse:sarcasm:

Give me a break.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Libertas1776]

147. Excuse me, again

but how dare YOU lecture me about poverty. Lofty perches and such nonsense. You know absolutely nothing about my life and its only your flippant attitude that allows you to think you can. I made no personal presumptions about you, but you make plenty about me. Nonetheless, once again, I will be the civil person here and refuse to respond back in such a profane manner as you prefer to do.


Good Day.

[Supply Side Jesus]

159. +1

:thumbsup:

[Occulus]

168. "I made no personal presumptions about you"

Plenty about the guy described in the OP, though, and that's what this conversation is really about.

Here's what you sound like:

"Hey, the guy probably had the munchies because he was high on drugs or his parents were drunks or methheads and didn't bother taking care of him. It doesn't matter that he left a few hundred dollars' worth of electronics behind. He's just a petty thief, and if that was (sic) legal, I'd be able to just take someone else's sammich for lunch! You tell me I don't know what it's like to be hungry, like nobody else has missed a meal here and there, I've been hungry before too, pal. You're making a lot of assumptions and that pisses me off!"

Ah, irony.

You dismissed the gravity of the overall situation completely, too. That's the part that angers and frightens me. I simply cannot grasp that some people do not understand how truly 'food insecure' many people are in this country and I really can't wrap my mind around how you can just dismiss it. This is a widespread problem with serious social consequences that should be obvious to all, and here you are, whistling past the graveyard.

I personally know one guy that has gone for days at a time without eating and was himself on the verge of doing something similar to what was described in the OP. And you know what? Instead of the lecture and dismissal you're giving everyone here on this topic, instead of telling him he should fend for himself better, instead of berating his family for hot helping him (or worse, implying they're drunks or drug addicts), instead of an interrogation, instead of dismissing him by saying "I've been hungry before" and implying he's just a petty thief,a common criminal, for stealing a loaf of bread... I just give him food.

I would rather err on the side of forgiveness for things like severe hunger and thirst, and judge the guy in the OP very leniently if I were to judge at all because I've felt them before. From the responses you've gotten from others here, most of the rest of us would, too. It is you who are turning your back, and my own profanity and flippance (or lack thereof) does not change that fact.

And yes, it does say one whole hell of a lot about you.

[Libertas1776]

179. And you made personal presumptions about the guy in the OP as well

assuming that he is indeed a genuinely in need person who is a victim of a greater socio-economic break down of American society where he can just as well be simply a troubled person stealing food. What is your proof positive at that? Were you there in person to witness what went down? NO, you were not. And neither was I. I merely pointed out, in my personal opinion, what I believed was likely or not. And hence we come back to the root of my very simple complaint that everyone here automatically believes the OPs second hand assumptions as being evidence of a breakdown of society. And again, I repeatedly never contradicted that our nation and its people are in dire trouble, but rather preferred not to jump to the most hyperbolic of conclusions.

But no, let's just broad brush and insult and personally attack the first singular person you set your eyes on with whom you disagree. And yes, It is such actions that say a whole heck of a lot about you.

[Supply Side Jesus]

254. +1

[defendandprotect]

146. 40 million Americans on food stamps and you still want to deny reality?

Or is it 50 million?

[Libertas1776]

149. And when exactly did i deny that reality?

[defendandprotect]

160. When you dismissed the reality of our "shit economy" ....

im glad somebody finally said something along those lines. Instantly, everyone here believes the OP's assumption that this person stole out of desperation and hunger, somehow related to our present society and shit economy. Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it likely? I don't think so. Its just as possible that he has a drug or alcohol problem or a behavioral problem or maybe a bad or abusive home situation (if he was that young, child services should be alerted).


Someone having a "drug or alcohol problem, behavioral problem, or abusive home situation"

wouldn't be cause for compassion, either?

And what exactly do you think our "child service" and safety nets are providing these days?

And what did they provide in the past as a way to abuse children -- especially sexually?


Look at the charts that have been provided here at DU over the last days -- and week --

USA is at the BOTTOM of all the lists -- in every way.

[david13]

208. I suppose you intend to draw some conclusion, but you don't do it. dc

[defendandprotect]

291. 50 million Americans surviving on food stamps is a conclusion in itself --

Not to mention 3 million homeless and

15% unemployed, many of them long term --

College grads accepting jobs which require less than a college education --

Medical costs bankrupting citizens, often leading to loss of homes --

Millions and millions of homes having been forclosed upon or in floreclosure --

[david13]

202. OP was being judgmental dude. I was merely looking at the other

side.
The question is how pathetically naive are you?
What is wrong with you. Oh, I get it, you are McCain, only your point of view is the right one.
He was obviously hungry? How do you know? Osmosis?
What is wrong with you that you think you know everything?
You are accusing me of being judgmental, when you have already decided the judgment in this case. And determined on your own that he is ... innocent?
Quo warranto?
What you consider with these feeble little jumps to naive conclusions is of no consequence to me.
You have no idea what you are saying.
dc

[reggie the dog]

121. if you steal to steal

why not steal the whole fucking car and everything in it? just drive off.

[pipi_k]

130. I wondered that and...

figured that the same could be applied to anybody who shoplifts.

Often they'll steal petty little things. Lipstick. Pens. A magazine.

They could have stolen something way bigger and better but they didn't. Sometimes it's not about "need" as much as it is about getting a "high" from the act of stealing something to begin with.

IMO

:shrug:

[reggie the dog]

187. but they stole FOOD

the heavy, big bag of food worth less than the lighter laptop, harder to carry than the laptop, and so much tastier.

[pipi_k]

199. I watch some of those shows on TV where

they catch criminals on surveillance cameras stealing shit.

Some of them steal the stupidest stuff.

Even with the better stuff visible. Thieves are often not the brightest people in the world.

According to the OP, the grocery bags were on top of the laptop. Which suggests to me that they wouldn't be seen until after the bags were lifted off of them. By that time, perhaps the kid figured he had pushed his luck by getting the bags and didn't want to waste even one more second grabbing the laptop Who knows what goes through the mind of a thief as he's committing a crime?

I'm not saying it's totally impossible that the kid stole from hunger, but I do say that there are other possibilities to consider as well. Nobody knows the absolute truth except the kid. And he's not here to tell us.

People are acting like their interpretations are the only correct ones and I don't think that's sporting.

There's another side to this and many are ignoring that and coming up with their own "facts" as to why that kid stole those grocery bags.

[defendandprotect]

300. Right, don't we all remember corporate-news reporting the "looting" in Katrina ... !!

And the rapes -- all lies --

In fact, hasn't it turned out that police were actually looting?

These were simply people trying to survive with no help available --

[pipi_k]

306. What does this have to do with store surveillance tapes

of people stealing shit?

A store is locked. People break the door in. Or they drive a car through the glass doors. They jump out. They grab shit, then they run away. Sometimes they grab shit that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's right there. No trickery. No hocus pocus.

You appear to be trying to divert attention from my point, which is that people do, and will, take things they do not really need.

People here are so invested in believing that the kid NEEDED those bags of groceries because he was starving.

Maybe...maybe not.

He could have wanted munchies. He could have been an alcoholic hoping for mouthwash or something else with alcohol in it. There are a dozen possibilities.

There are no real FACTS to point to the kid being a starving teenager. No FACTS at all.

[defendandprotect]

332. What would happen to store surveillance tapes which showed

police looting?

I'm surprised you haven't suggested yet that the kid was a murderer!!

:rofl:

[david13]

206. Evidence, man. Evidence. Do you realize some laptops, and

all gps can identify where there are? Remotely?
dc

[reggie the dog]

265. so take out the motherboard

the sound card, the graphics card, the fan and sell them as pieces, you will get more money than for a bag of groceries

[defendandprotect]

145. Amazing that quite a few here prefer to ignore that proverty breeds crime ...

despite all the evidence of our real criminals being capitalists --

and wonder if such harsh words have ever been served up for them?

Don't challenge the powerful -- that's too difficult --

Challenge those who are powerless?

[pipi_k]

177. I think most people here know, and would acknowledge...

that poverty breeds crime.

That's not the issue.

The issue is that nobody knows for a fact that the kid was starving and wanted the groceries to feed himself and his 12 siblings because his parents are out picking up aluminum cans to turn in for drug money and the only things in the fridge are rotting pizza and bottles of beer.

Some here are willing to admit that's a possibility even though they suspect something different.

But the crowd that reaaaallly wants to believe the storyline about the desperate, starving kid won't even entertain the possibility that it could be something else. No. They're blocking their ears and going "La la la I can't hear you!!!!" because they'd rather believe what they want to. Oh...and based on a second-hand retelling of the incident, BTW. Which may or may not have been embellished upon by the neighbor lady who may have wanted to "see" sorrow where it may not have existed.

[defendandprotect]

302. As you say, you know nothing "for fact" about this ... so given all of the poverty in America...

and more importantly the impression of the neighbor involved that it was about

hunger -- why would you spend all of this time trying to convince us all that it

wasn't about hunger?

Why is that so essential to you?

And still knowing nothing "for fact" -- you've gone so far as to suggest that the

neighbor invented the story to cover her guilt at leaving her car unlocked -- :eyes:


and your latest suggestion is that the "kid" may have been a drug addict or an

alcoholic!! :eyes:


Seems to suggest that what you have left is debate based on slander --




Your post in case you've forgotten it --
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1188775&mesg_id=1191478

:nuke:

[kestrel91316]

322. Why is she taking this tack? Obvious. She's REALLY into private property rights.

Above all else. Especially above ending human suffering.

[pipi_k]

343. Excuse me, dear, but...

You don't "end human suffering" by letting other people steal your property.

Just like you don't end alcoholism by buying alcoholics booze.

and you don't end world hunger by making dinner for poor people once a year at Christmas time.

You end human suffering by showing people how to help themselves.

I'm sure you must be old enough to know the adage about giving a man a fish and feeding him for one day vs. teaching him how to fish so he can feed himself forever.


Believe me, there's enough to do around my house so that if someone showed up looking for food or money, I could give the person a job for a day or two. Give him self esteem along with cash, you know? Maybe he'll discover something he's good at and can make more money doing. Then he wouldn't have to rely on stealing or handouts.


It's disturbing to me to see people here wanting to perpetuate the poverty they say they hate so much by just giving food or money that would last a day or two...or even condoning stealing. All so they can think they're better than everybody else.

[david13]

207. What's powerless about him? He has the op groceries, doesn't

he, and it was free wasn't it?
Crime, and greed breed crime. I have known far too many far poorer people, who would never steal to believe that hogwash about people stealing because they are poor.
dc

[pipi_k]

215. Actually that's a pretty good point

about poverty and crime.

On the one hand we're told that poverty breeds crime, and on the other we're told that we tend to ignore the (far worse) crimes perpetrated on individuals and Society by the rich.

So it seems that crime is opportunist and doesn't favor one level of society over another... although it would be interesting to know what the actual statistics are for crime committed by the poor compared with crime committed by the rich.

[defendandprotect]

304. You're saying the poor aren't "powerless" -- ?

They're not vulnerable -- they're probably not even in dire straights?

Probably the next day the kid had a MacDonald's franchise --


:rofl:

[amyrose2712]

78. Maybe the assumption was simply because all he took was food..

and not the car or the expensive electronics. Not saying I actually know what the reason really is, but I think that is where the assumption comes from.

[Occulus]

84. That's right- he could have stolen the car, too.

How can anyone in their right minds judge this poor hungry fellow?

[Libertas1776]

88. As i have stated to another poster...

nothing is discounted by the fact that the expensive electronics were stolen. I never said it was not a possibility that this "kid" was hungry. But the majority of posters here, including the OP are making some broad correlation to the state of our nation (which i don't pretend to imagine is even anywhere near where it should be). Has it ever occurred to anyone that this kid has real problems at home, abuse, neglect, you name it. That's a pretty localized problem. Maybe the kid has some kind of addiction. Maybe he has a behavioral problem. I dunno.

My irk is that everyone immediately points to this particular incident as indicative of a rampant, spreading problem that is poverty (which is very real and happening) and the decaying state of our society. Don't get me wrong there are REAL incidents of this but this does not strike me so. Not here to flame you. Just stating my opinion.

[reggie the dog]

122. our nation is fucked, look around

take a walk on the "wrong side of town" or go to a city and walk around the ghetto, then notice how the former middle class suburbs now have older, shittier cars in the drives as the people are not able to buy new like in the past. 25% of american kids are poor. ONE KID IN FOUR IS POOR IN THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, this is proof that society has gone to hell! I say it often, the whole world is going to hell. Greed, a deadly sin, is rewarded while kindness is mocked.

[defendandprotect]

148. What you are saying ignores the reality of "America" today --

our criminals are our capitalists and our elites --

and their way of thinking --

Our enemies are this capitalistic system based on exploitation --

exploitation of all nature, natural resources, animal life to a suicidal point --

and even the exploitation of other human beings according to various myths of "inferiority."

[defendandprotect]

305. ... Because that was the IMPRESSION of the neighbor whose groceries were stolen ...

something you choose to ignore --

What if the kid had problems at home -- does that make him better off somehow?

And, note that you as well as another poster are suggesting he could be a drug addict

or alcoholic -- !!

How does an untreated behavioral problem argue against him?


Ironically, you can only confirm the growing problems in America -- including poverty.

[reggie the dog]

119. cigarettes?

really? why steal groceries to trade for smokes when you could just bum a ciggie from someone? what if it is the parents who spend their money on drugs and not food for the kid? if a 14 year old wanted drugs they would just sell drugs for a gang.

[david13]

209. Ergo, no one ever steals cigarettes? Whoa, where have you lived

your sheltered life?
dc

[reggie the dog]

225. who steals food to sell to buy cigarettes?

we are not talking about a kid who saw a carton of cigs in a car and stole them. I have seen people steal cigs before but to suggest that someone would go through the trouble of stealing food from a car to sell to buy cigs is a bit much for me

[david13]

236. I suggested no such thing, mr mind reader. What I suggested was

something quite different. Go back and read again.
What you stated was that one never needed to steal for cigarettes, as they could bum them. Maybe this is a thief with some dignity. Bumming is beneath his sense of self righteousness.
dc

[reggie the dog]

258. this thief didnt steal cigarettes

and no who steals FOR ciggies? some people steal cigs yes, but to steal to sell and then buy cigs with the money is very rare.

[reggie the dog]

120. please, it is so evident

if a kid wants cigs they ask for cigs, if they want alcohol or drugs then stealing the whole car or the laptop computer would have been the trick. most drug addicted teens are able to get drugs by selling to other using teens who are not addicted yet. by stealing only the food, not the laptop, not the car, it suggests that the kid was hungry, perhaps abandoned by drug abusing or alcohol abusing parents, perhaps running from abuse. seriously why would someone who wants to feed a heroin habit not steal the computer or the car?

[pipi_k]

133. Maybe food is easier to sell

and a lot less traceable than a car?

Plus stolen groceries wouldn't be classified as Grand Theft, depending on the state.

Or maybe in any state...I didn't check.

[defendandprotect]

150. Or "MAYBE" ... he was just a hungry kid --

[pipi_k]

170. Exactly...there are lots of "maybe's" here....

Lots of them. On both sides.

But one side seems to want to make it a FACT that the kid was starving.


It's all speculation. All of it.

[Libertas1776]

181. Exactly

everyone wants to jump to the most hyperbolic of conclusions. My argument was that there is no proof that this story is a FACT. Nor is there major proof it isn't. Just what is likely and what is not. Merely pointing out to people not to jump to the most extreme of conclusions has gotten me flamed to a crispy critter here so far.

[pipi_k]

182. that's why...

both sides in a legal action get a chance to present their sides.

Because courts, at least, recognize that people have a tendency to see and hear things that might not have happened. Or that happened a different way.

I would imagine that anyone here would probably be outraged (OUTRAGED!!!) at all the times someone has been convicted based purely on eyewitness testimony.

Six people can see the same event and come away with just as many interpretations of that one event.


So here we have a secondhand retelling of an incident. Not even the original neighbor's words, but words heard, and interpreted by, the OP. Which isn't to say the OP is wrong...just that retellings sometimes change with no malice intended.

We don't even have the words of the young man himself here. WHY he stole those groceries.

What would he say? I have no idea, frankly.

Yet some here have decided once and for all that without a doubt he's starving and supporting a family of 15 who would all die if he didn't steal. With NO evidence whatsoever. Just secondhand information.

Amazing. Well, all I can say is that sometimes being flamed to crispiness is a sign that you have hit a nerve somewhere.

:7

[Libertas1776]

183. Yes

and as you said "Six people can see the same event and come away with just as many interpretations of that one event."


I am glad there are still some calm, cool headed folks like you left on DU. :)

[kestrel91316]

324. DU is not a court of law, in case you and your little friends hadn't noticed.

[pipi_k]

340. Not sure what this is supposed to mean, exactly...

Is it in reference to the "innocent until proven guilty" thing?

If so, then the fact that this isn't a court of law makes it all the more silly that people are getting frothed up over the kid being thought guilty of theft.


If someone sees a person stealing something, that person is a thief. Never mind "innocent until proven guilty".


If you have kids and you see one of them write on the wall, do you have a court trial to determine his guilt or innocence?

If you catch your spouse cheating on you, do you have a court trial to determine his guilt or innocence?

No to both.

You saw them do it...they're guilty of having done what they were caught doing.


Write on the walls = defacer

Cheat = adulterer

Steal = thief

[reggie the dog]

192. the most logical reason for stealing food is hunger

[pipi_k]

195. That's true, but...

the majority of the Human Race can hardly be called "logical".


People do all sorts of things that don't make a lick of sense.


Ask anyone here why Republicans tend to vote against their own self-interests.

[david13]

204. What is logical about stealing? Nothing. dc

[reggie the dog]

261. nothing? there is no logic? really?

so when people like bernie maddock stole money he was not calculating and logical about his scam? his logical reason to steal was greed.

if hungry people steal to eat there is no logic? "i am hungry, i have no money, i go to the grocery store and cram some food in my pants and walk out so i can eat"

when people steal to buy heroin, meth or crack there is no logic? i see a logic. as in "i am dope sick, i need money for dope, if i steal something and then sell it i will have money, money gets me dope,"

[defendandprotect]

222. Because the landslide evidence is one of poverty in America for the many ... wealth for the few!!

Free enterprise for the poor

Welfare for the rich --

USA ranks in every way now -- on every issue -- at the bottom.

Did you happen to see the two or three OP's this week with those facts, as well?

We're the new "Estonia or Romania" according to Thom Hartman and Sen. Bernie Sanders!

[pipi_k]

238. "Landslide evidence" doesn't mean shit

unless all the facts are known.

Would a judge give a verdict based on landslide evidence from the Prosecution?

No. Both sides get to present their cases.


Here we have a second hand story told from one person's POV, with a bunch of statistics given as "facts" to reach the final verdict, which is that it must have been HUNGER that drove a kid to steal a bag of food from an unlocked car.

Unless and until that kid gets to give his side of the story, I do not believe that the motivation for his theft being hunger is absolute FACT. It's a possibility...no more than that.

[defendandprotect]

267. Obviously, you're out of debate -- Bye --

[pipi_k]

276. Yeah, see ya...

It's easier to write someone off than to admit there may be more than one possibility.

Geez, I really hate it when some party pooper challenges my preconceived and rigid ideas with alternate scenarios...


boo hiss

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

307. No -- putting someone on ignore is simply refusing to waste time with them ...

however, I usually wait until a thread is over before doing that --

Geez, I really hate it when some party pooper challenges my preconceived and rigid ideas with alternate scenarios...

You've certainly made that obvious on this thread --

now accusing the neighbor of having made up the story --

and the "kid" of being a drug addict or an alcoholic --


That's pretty desperate --

[pipi_k]

311. OK look...

I'll do you a favor.

I'm going to put you on ignore now.


You know why? Because nowhere did I accuse anyone of anything.

I merely made suggestions as to other possibilities.


If suggestions on other possibilities equals accusations in your opinion, then there's not much I can do about it except refuse to waste MY time.

[Forkboy]

319. deleted.

Wrong post, wrong night lol.

[defendandprotect]

331. Actually, YOU said that people "accuse" you falsely of things you didn't do ...

On edit...it suddenly occurred to me that maybe that whole story was just an attempt by the OP's neighbor to make herself feel less stupid for leaving the car running.

People often feel less anger after they've been robbed if they make themselves believe that perhaps the thief needed it more than they did.

However it is clear that you tried here to roll in the "poison apple" --

and that you did the same re the kid suggesting that he could be a drug addict or alcoholic.


What you could do is own up to what you've said in black and white --

[kestrel91316]

323. This is a discussion board, not a court of law. Suck it up and deal with it.

What is your huge beef against the OP's free speech right to express an opinion??

[pipi_k]

344. Suck it up and deal with what?

I never said I had a problem with the OP's right to express an opinion.

I realize that's all it is.

And it's the OP's opinion that the kid was starving and desperate. Even the OP said it, right in this thread. Opinion that the kid was starving and desperate.


Yet people are assuming that the opinion, "Starving and desperate" is FACT.

It is NOT a fact.


What I do have a problem with is people taking the OP's opinion and making it FACT.

[reggie the dog]

190. if the kid is dope sick then stealing a car may well seem like a good idea

plus if you take the car to the ghetto to score you can probably get a deal for a hot car against some heroin and crack real easy because the gangs that sell the drugs steal and process stolen cars (amongst many other things) and drug addicts going to the ghetto to score pretty much all know this. The laptop and the gps would have been for a dope sick junkie scared of hard time and could usually be traded directly to the dealer too like the car but way easier to hide until arriving in the ghetto.

a junkie would not usually want food as heroin, crack and meth all make people not want to eat. now having parents who are junkies and dont see the need to buy food may indeed make a kid have shitty clothing and no food to eat...... or having parents who have been laid off for too long and are dirt poor struggling to keep a roof,and food but someone got sick, bills etc and a moslty empty fridge with beans and no meat. they see food, good food, and are hungry and poor and got shit clothing and all .... i would not convict such a kid thinking that anything beyond restitution for the dollar value of the food to the victim is exagerated as punishment.

[pipi_k]

194. All sorts of possibilities...

Maybe ten...or a dozen...who knows...

But it's all a big "if" or "could" or "maybe" or "might".

Unless someone can find that kid and ask him why he stole the groceries, it's all a big guessing game...

[reggie the dog]

196. but which is most likely?

really what is the most likely reason for someone to steal food? HUNGER!

[pipi_k]

200. First I would have to know

what sort of bags the groceries were in.

Brown paper bags? Plastic? Recyclable?

It makes a difference, you know.

Stuff in plastic or those recyclable bags could be literally anything.


Aside from that, though, I have to tell you about a guy who stole food from a local store. He did it constantly. Not from hunger. I knew the guy. I knew exactly what he had and what he didn't have. For him, stealing food from that store was a game.

Oh, and he stole from the local CVS store. Odd things like emery boards and razors (he didn't shave...had a beard and mustache) and some other weird things he didn't need. Why? Because it was fun. It was a game.

He also stole from a local department store pretty often. This was a bit more complicated than just a game, though. He would steal shit and then return it for a refund. So he could afford his booze.

Really, please forgive me for being a little cynical about the whole deal, but I do know for a fact that people steal shit they have no intention of using and/or that they don't need.

:shrug:

[david13]

214. I knew a guy for a brief time. Very brief since I wanted to get away

from him as fast as possible. He had been in and out of prison all his life. He stole food. From supermarkets. But only the top choice, high quality meats. Top dollar items. He made a fair little living at it. Until his miscellaneous other crimes would catch up to him and he would be sent back to prison again.
Hungry? I had the distinct impression he was indeed hungry. FOR BLOOD. So I got away from him as soon as possible.
The type of guy who would gladly cut your throat for the gold in your teeth.
dc

[david13]

213. Based on what? Your super presumptive mind? No way. dc

[reggie the dog]

223. without knowing anything else but that food was stolen

and electronics were not. what is the most probable reason to steal food? being hungry. there are other possibilities but they are not as likely.

[pipi_k]

233. Electronics that admittedly weren't visible until the bags were removed

As someone else pointed out, most anyone in the process of stealing something isn't operating on a logical level.

Adrenaline and fear can put virtual "blinders" on a person's field of vision.

He may have seen the laptop but not really registered it in his consciousness.


Haven't you ever spent a long time looking for something that, in the end, turned out to be right there in front of you? We go through this a lot at my house. "Where's my book?" "Where's the screwdriver?" "Where's the mustard?" I hear that all the time from Mr P. He goes crazy looking for stuff. It just happened yesterday. He was looking for something in the freezer. I told him to lift up another item and look. He did and insisted it wasn't there. I told him AGAIN to lift the item and look. We nearly got into an argument, but he did, and what do you know...there it was. Exactly in the place he had just looked at.

It's entirely possible for someone to look at something and not really SEE it. What's more visible...some bags on a car seat, or a laptop underneath the bags?

[david13]

237. Completely wrong. Hunger is the least probable. dc

[reggie the dog]

260. hunger is the least probable reason to steal food? really?

food? what the hell kind of resale value do you get for perishable items? seriously most people who steal food steal it to eat. you ever open a dozen eggs on ly to find 10 or 11 inside? you think people stole those eggs for a reason other than to feed themselves or their kids? so someone stealing food, a random grocery bag full of food without knowing what kind of food in it is in your eyes likely not hungry? really if hunger is the least likely reason then you think it is MORE LIKELY that people steal food for a thirll? to trade for crack? to be an asshole and just throw it in the trash? than they are to steal food to eat it? really?

[kestrel91316]

325. Link to a peer-reviewed study to back that bizarre little factoid up??

[david13]

205. Baloney. The car is traceable. The cops can find it fast. So is the

gps and the laptop. They are also evidence. The stolen bags of food are evidence free. In fact, was the receipt for the food not in the bag? You know as well as I it was. So no only can the kid deny stealing it ... he has the receipt to prove it.
You might think like a junkie, but you don't think like a thief.
dc

[reggie the dog]

224. how much money would they get for random sacks of food

compared to a laptop or a gps? really. a car is harder to trade for drugs but electronics are easy to sell off. I still think that people stealing grocery bags and leaving more valuable electronics are hungry.

[david13]

211. Read my answers elsewhere. Evidence. dc

[JVS]

240. Stealing groceries is an inefficient way to get drugs, smokes, and booze.

[reggie the dog]

262. thank you, i was begining to think i was the only one on here who

thinks that people steal food to eat it most of the time and that people steal other shit, like electronics, to fund addictions

[JVS]

263. And I can only imagine how selling them of would go.

"Hey, you want a good deal on some bananas or a can of corn?"

Few people are in the stolen grocery market because they're usually perfectly happy to pay regular prices at the store.

[reggie the dog]

266. how much could you get for warm cheese and milk?

[HopeHoops]

71. Dubya happened to our country.

[defendandprotect]

151. The overt and violent elite attack on America happened at least a half

century ago -- 1963 -- 50 years of political violence by the right wing --

The only way the rightwing can rise is via political violence and it's the only

way they can hold onto power.

Slowly and patiently they've made their way, but they're at the finish line now.


And, sadly, they didn't get here without help from the Democrats --

Wm. Greider in his book "Who will tell the people?" makes clear that Democrats

collaborated with Repugs in 1978 to break the tax code for the benefit of the elites.


I personally watched via C-span as Sen. George Mitchell with a Dem majority Senate

simply turned the Senate over to Sen. Bob Dole --

[HopeHoops]

178. I'll agree with that. The last really evil GOP president was Nixon.

Reagan was a fucking senile idiot. George H.W. was evil, but not on the Nixon level. The shrub was just a stupid fucking drunk. It was the evil behind Reagan, H.W., and the shrub that really fucked up the country - Cheney, Rove, Ailes, Murdoch, Rumsfeld, etc.

The list is WAY too long.

[JohnnyRingo]

77. The ill based assumption that if we cut social programs....

...people will have no choice but to starve to death.

When desperate people can't earn an honest living, they'll find a dishonest one. The conservative dream of "if you don't work, you don't eat" goes back to before the Great Depression. Then and now, it just leads to undesired consequences.

[reggie the dog]

123. If you can't find work to feed your kids, and with a social safety net

in shambles you either
sell drugs
prostitute yourself
or steal to feed your kids


it has been like this in the ghettos for DECADES! well now the former middle class is having a taste. will this be enough to start our side fighing back in the class war?

[madokie]

79. And so am I after reading this.

[bertman]

83. REC for a very sad and poignant story. nt

[SheilaT]

87. Leaving a car unlocked and running is so

phenomenally stupid that anyone who does that almost deserves whatever happens. As someone else pointed out it is actually against the law in many places. To excuse this as something people got in the habit of when cars had to be hand cranked leads me to ask, when was the last time you had to hand crank a car? I'm 62 and I've never even SEEN one of them.

And the idea you need to "warm up" a car is something else that belongs about fifty years in the past. It takes five minutes or less for the vast majority of cars to give decent heat and/or air conditioning, whichever is needed.

Several years ago in the Kansas City area there was a genuine tragedy when a woman left her car open and running while she went into a convenience store I think it was, as she was coming out someone was preparing to drive the car off. She opened the back door and tried to get out her young child who was in the back, got the kid tangled up in the seat belt and couldn't get him. The car thief drove off, the kid dangling by the seat belt, and was dragged to death. During the trial the mother's 911 call was played, and I heard it, and it's truly heart-rending. Nothing can bring back her kid, nothing can erase the horror of what happened, but leaving a car unlocked and running is a truly stupid thing to do.

[reggie the dog]

124. it is stupid to assume

that no one will steal your car and that your car cannot push the clutch down and put itself in gear and drive off? i often get out of a running pickup truck on my friends ranch while we are loading hay bales and have never had a problem.

[SheilaT]

203. But I NEVER leave my car running and unlocked

anywhere, not even in my own garage. When I'm getting out of the car I turn it off and take the key.

I have simply heard too many stories of cars either being stolen or someone locking themselves out of the car unintentionally. One really bad habit a lot of people have is to hit the door locks rather than using the key to lock. Everyone I know who does this has at least once locked themself out of the car.

And I am constantly amazed at how many people do not know how to drive a stick. It's why I don't use valet parking, because I do not trust that they really know how to drive a stick, which is unreasonable, I know. But I was talking to one of the valet parking guys at the hospital I work at (yes, they offer valet parking) and he said that most of the guys working it cannot drive a stick.

[reggie the dog]

226. 97.5% of vehicules on the road in france are stick shift.

and yes, rather than start the motor every 30 seconds we leave the pickup running, jump out, throw hay in the bed or the trailer, but we leave the windows down to avoid lock outs.

[SheilaT]

251. I don't live in France. I live

in the U.S.A., and I don't know what the percentages are, but I'd guess over 80% of cars here are automatics.

It's making it a little tricky every time I need to buy a replacement car. Younger salesmen think I'm weird. The ones my age or older (I'm 62) tend to be very matter-of-fact about it, because they grew up with moms who knew how to drive a stick. The younger ones generally don't know any women who can drive one.

My sons' friends think I'm quite cool.

[Liberal_in_LA]

89. What a story! why was she angry? that she let a thief get away or that the young man was obviously

in need?

[StarburstClock]

92. 40 million people on food stamps

Even more without health care, millions of jobless uncounted and most importantly a society run by unaccountable elites. That's exactly what's happened.

[defendandprotect]

93. What's happening is the rise of the right/fascism ... and destruction of safety nets .. New Deal

[Hardrada]

104. Fascists provide fairly good employment but only to the right people.

[defendandprotect]

152. Yes, for the few prepared to serve them as violent thugs --

[MrMickeysMom]

98. I'm wondering... will anything like this happen to a community garden?

I guess I'll find out during by the end of summer, because I'm part of a project to grow vegetables for the food bank. I'm trying to get it going so that we have something to give.

I know the real solution is to give a crap about jobs. People need jobs. Hell, I need more hours at my job, and I went to school and developed professional skills no one seems to give much care about, so what are people with very, very limited means going to do?

This is wrong, and I don't blame the woman for her anguish.

[pitohui]

185. no because it didn't happen at all -- your community garden should be fine

it's one of those tall tales that happened to somebody else, a neighbor who claims all kinds of wild stuff

i'm mostly peeved about the story because MY neighbor who left her car unlocked got killed in cold blood, in front of her baby, for her trouble

let's not romanticize stupidity

i've had a couple of hot pepper plants stolen, yes, but mostly my experience w. community/front yard gardens is that they get left alone

the kind of person who steals isn't the kind of person who recognizes food when it's growing

[kestrel91316]

326. You've clearly never lived in my old neighborhood in Los Angeles.

".....the kind of person who steals isn't the kind of person who recognizes food when it's growing......"

Really? REALLY????

:rofl:

I caught women in the act of swiping lemons from my lemon tree that was fully inside my 95% fenced yard numerous times in the 8 years I lived in that house. They would come up my driveway to swipe oranges from my neighbor's trees. And I found evidence that they came into my back yard and swiped all manner of vegetables when I was at work.

Certain cultures have the attitude that if something that can be eaten is in view and nobody has yet picked it, it's free for the taking. I won't name names, but we have lots of those folks here, and they consider all plants public property, even when fully inside someone's property lines/fenced yard.

[kestrel91316]

327. Put a 6 foot fence around that garden and lock the gate. SERIOUSLY.

Ask me how I know.

[BillyJack]

105. Someone stole my child's boots from outside the classroom at school one year....

...I was recently divorced and poor and scared.

I hoped that whomever stole those boots needed them more than *I*/my child did.....b/c it caused us 'some hardship'.

What *I* have a HUGE PROBLEM with is the banks, and the corporations and the military and the banksters, and the wall street gamblers STEALING HUGE SUMS OF MONEY FROM 'WE THE PEOPLE' EVERY-SINGLE-FREAKING-DAY!!!!!!!

Don't worry about the guy supposedly stealing two bags of groceries out of a car, when there is a HUGE ELEPHANT trampling/stealing EVERYTHING IN THIS ROOM (NATION)!!!!

[defendandprotect]

154. And still you had the heart and courage to understand someone stealing food ....

and to challenge the true criminals in our society -- elites/capitalists!!


:)

[BillyJack]

217. Thank you for understanding (and interpreting, for others) the message I hoped to send

:hug:

[Raksha]

107. K & R - very much a sign of the times.

I refuse to call what is happening in this country in the economic sense a "recession." I call it Great Depression 2.0. On the spiritual level it's even worse than that.

[Swagman]

108. you don't get poor people fro free either

there is a consequence for every dreadful policy. Turn people into the working poor and they will turn to crime.

[Kurmudgeon]

109. We're still in the aftermath of the Bush-Cheney-GOP years.

The damage done by their conservative greed and warmongering can not be fixed quickly, though things are slowly improving.
Remember this when you hear a poster like the one previous blaming Obama. They've done this to every democratic president.
Meanwhile, do what you can when you can.

[WVRICK13]

110. Yet Both Parties

insist on keeping the tax cuts for the wealthy while destroying safety nets for the poor. What the hell is wrong with this country?

[defendandprotect]

308. +1000% --

Seems that some would rather not acknowledge that !!

[gristy]

111. off topic, but google "unattended idling car"

It's not a good idea. A mystery to me why anyone wouldn't think to turn off the car anytime they exit the driver's seat.

[lupinella]

116. Wow - great story & some really dumbfounding responses.

To all of you out there doubting this story: You're deluded by your privilege. The 'car-running' issue is letting you avoid the topic of the thread.

There is immense poverty in this country & it is affecting people in horrific ways.
I know this because I grew up in it. I know because I knew a young man who once stole groceries from a cart in a parking lot to feed his sister. He was a teenager who worked while attending school. He joined the military at a young age to escape the cycle, instead returning as a vet with PTSD & alcoholism. He was my brother.

To those of you focusing on the young man in this story as a thief: imagine for a moment being so scared by a small child's crying that you were willing to risk going to jail so she wouldn't have to skip yet another meal.

Thank you for this story. While it has me in tears, it also reminds me how damned lucky I am now, living paycheck-to-paycheck on part-time jobs, to have had a brother willing to do what this young man did.

The comment thread reminds me how much people do not want to look into the faces of the poor.

[pipi_k]

132. I think a major issue with people in general is...

that they tend to see events through their own "filters".

Without any REAL evidence, some here want to assume that it's poverty and the ills of corrupt Society behind this whole incident.

And on the other side, without any REAL evidence, people want to assume that it's not poverty at all, but a kid stealing stuff because he's got drug problems.


Nobody knows the facts behind the whole incident.

The only FACT is that the neighbor left her car running and the doors unlocked.

All the rest is just speculation.

[defendandprotect]

156. 50 million on food stamps in America -- 15% unemployment are FACTS ....

which have to be added into the equation --

We also know that proverty breeds crime --


Basically, what is so obvious is that it is always easy to judge the poor and

powerless in our society --

it's a great deal harder to judge and challenge the powerful.

[pipi_k]

176. Yes, those are facts, but...

you can't say with certainty that those facts apply in THIS situation.


That's like taking the fact that a number of people are wrongly arrested in this country and then claiming that any particular arrest is a wrongful arrest.


Facts don't apply to each and every situation just because someone wants them to.

[defendandprotect]

218. Ovewhelming facts which make it likely -- not less likely -- that this was the case ...

3 million homeless and still growing --

50 million on food stamps --

15% unemployment --

Now ... what are the odds?

Our nation is being impoverished by the few violent fat cats among us who

call themselves "capitalists" -- we call them criminals.

We have a nation without health care which is bankrupting us --

Ten years of two wars bankrupting our Treasury --

Millions and millions of homes in foreclosure --

Bankruptcy numbers exploding -- while the terms have been changed to benefit

corporations yet again --

So -- what are the odds that this teenager was yet one more victim of elite greed

and corporate crime?

Maybe a grandparent would have cared for him -- Oops! Obama -- not Bush -- cancelled

COLA's for senior citizens!

How about a summer job for teenagers -- ? Not likely, either --

What are the odds -- ?


Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --

[pipi_k]

232. Likely doesn't make it absolutely true...

which is what some here seem to be doing in this one case.

Again...I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, or for the reason many here want to believe it did.

I'm just saying that there ARE other possibilities to consider. And those on the side of "He was STARVING!!" won't even give any other possibility a moment's thought and anybody who does must be a heartless bastard.

Likely? Yes

Possible? Yes

Probable? Maybe

Fact? NO

[defendandprotect]

315. That didn't stop you from suggesting story maybe was made up, or kid was drug addict?

Did it?

"Facts" -- you have none.

You don't even have debate --

In fact, what you're trying to do in your last posts is deny the very things

you've said in black and white!!


:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

155. Thank you for telling the truth about "America" which too many are still celebrating ... and

the truth of hunger in America --

How so many of these posters can ignore that we have 50 million Americans on

food stamps is beyond me -- but they make a magnificent attempt to do it!!

Maybe it's their own fear -- maybe it's just always easier to judge and

challenge the helpless and poor and much too difficult to challenge and judge

the wealthy?

[varelse]

193. I'm with you on this one

on a progressive political forum, no less. :(

[PotatoChip]

135. Just a few words and thoughts to all who responded.

But to begin, the most important thing I'd like to say is THANKS. DUers are awesome, caring people as clearly demonstrated by not only the responses on this thread, but the many others like it that I have read here before.

That said, I'd like to address a few things that surfaced among the replies.

First, there were many folks who took issue w/the fact that my neighbor kept her car unlocked and running. I think that these are very valid points and I have no interest in defending my neighbor for having done this. This is not to say that I have not been guilty of it myself on a few occasions (in the past), but I would not recommend it for the same reasons people rightly pointed out on this thread.

Second, a few people brought up the fact that I perhaps should not have jumped to the conclusion that this young man's motives for stealing were that of hunger and desperation. Here again, I think some valid points have been made. I did so based on the fact that only the food had been taken and the more (monetarily) valuable items had been left behind. But it is true that I am making assumptions here, and these assumptions could be wrong.

When I wrote the OP yesterday morning, I had literally just spoken w/my neighbor minutes before, therefore, more or less 'spilled' my thoughts as they were occurring. Upon reflection, I think at the very least I should have not titled the thread as I did. I could and should have simply left out the part that said, "driven by hunger and desperation" and allowed everyone to draw their own conclusions.

And finally, my thanks to all the DUers who offered not only their compassion for this young man but also helpful advice. I especially like the community garden idea. I had heard of this sort of thing being done in the larger cities, but there is no reason why it couldn't be done here too. This incident has motivated me to become more involved then ever before with poverty issues and serves as a reminder that though I've done some things to help, these actions are clearly not enough since people seem to be slipping through the cracks.

*And as a very personal aside, there is someone right here on DU who PM'd me a couple of weeks ago (about an issue very similar to this one) who I really need to get back to.

[defendandprotect]

157. K/R --

You told the story as it should have been told --

the "car" issue just served as a loophole for a few here to look away

from poverty and its relationship to crime -- and that this is where we

are today in "America."


Those who spoke of the "car" gave little attention to the reality of an

"America" with 50 million on food stamps -- and 15% unemployment -- and

the rightwing still bent on further destruction.


Those who spoke of the "car" little noted our crumbling infrastructure,

our deadly lack of universal health care and the great pain that has

caused our nation.


Those who spoke of the "car" ignored the injustice of our illegal and

immoral wars in Afghanistan and Iraq -- and 1 million Muslims dead.


The reality is that those who saw a "car" and not a hungry human being

found it easier not to see -- found it easier to judge someone stealing

food and found it impossible to see and judge the sins and immorality of

the wealthy among us.


Thank you for your posts -- :)

[Liberal_in_LA]

191. Nice followup. Sorry DUers jumped on your neighbor about the unlocked car but that's just DU

[slackmaster]

140. Your neighbor is to be commended for her compassion

I probably would have tackled the kid and kicked his ass.

[individual rights]

163. I didn't read anything about his plight...

Absent of that, this is nothing more than a simple case of petty larceny.

[Supply Side Jesus]

164. Sorry, the kid didn't see the eletronics..

It was covered by the groceries...he saw his opportunity and snatched those bags and ran his ass off. His adrenaline was so jack, his vision tunneled he would not have seen that equipment. When you grab those bags you brain is already two steps ahead looking down the street eying the corner.

My favorite part is when he turned his head for a brief second, and the witness purportedly saw him mouth "I'm sorry." Like you can see that a block away..and he managed to show fear and sadness with his face by looking over his shoulder.

Has the Country gone to shit since the Bush Cabal? fuckin A... but people will see what they want to see.

[Nye Bevan]

167. So if he had walked up to her and politely asked her to give him all of her groceries,

I wonder whether she would have handed them over?

Are there any DUers here who, after finishing their grocery shopping, would willingly hand over all of their groceries in response to a polite request from a disheveled 15 year old?

For me the answer would be no. Does that make me uncompassionate?

[Cid_B]

212. Uh no...

You are good to go.

I'd point him in the direction of the closest fast food joint. I might loan him a pen for the application. Probably not....

[pipi_k]

216. Interesting...

that only one person chose to answer this question. Honestly, too, I might add.

I wouldn't hand over the groceries, either.


I wonder how long it will be till someone else joins in and gives an honest answer...yes or no.

Although really...anybody can say "yes" to a hypothetical question and get away with it.

But I'd just enjoy very much seeing some of the "The world is going to hell in a handbasket and we're all to blame because people are starving and nobody cares!" bunch honestly say they wouldn't hand over their groceries to someone who politely asked.

;)

[JVS]

244. It's attitudes like yours that ensure such kids won't ask but will just take.

[Cid_B]

246. Really?

I'm the jerk because I told him to get a job instead of begging/stealing my property?

In my opinion my approach was much more beneficial in the long term

[pipi_k]

249. I suppose people would think it's cruelty

to have the kid come to your house and actually work for some money doing yardwork or something. I could definitely do that.

[Cid_B]

253. Look for the thread...

... about the Congressman who employed one of his constituents doing yard work. Called every dirty name in the book...

[pipi_k]

275. Let me guess...

Republican Congressman, right?

[JVS]

250. Yes, really. Whether you're a jerk or not is immaterial. When you tell someone who is hungry to...

get a job (which usually takes several days to get and at least 1 week of work for a paycheck to arrive), you are not providing a realistic solution to the problem at hand. Given the alternatives of not eating for 9 more days by following your advice and stealing food (what people who beg eventually turn to when nobody gives them anything), the choice is clear.

[pipi_k]

248. Wait a minute...

So people commit crimes because other people won't give them what they want?


I wonder what sort of defense that would make in court....


"Sorry, Judge. But I asked a lady for her groceries one time...real nicely, too...and she wouldn't give them to me. So I had to steal them! It's not my fault I'm a criminal!"


ummmmm

OK.

[Lyric]

219. Yes.

But since most of what I buy is perishable and requires cooking utensils, etc., I'd ask if he/she was homeless first. If the answer is yes, then I'd offer money and a ride to the store to buy things that are easy to prepare and eat without access to a fridge or stove.

What kind of person could see a starving child and NOT help? Sorry, but I just cannot understand that. Not at all.

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

230. +1000

[Nye Bevan]

257. This was a "disheveled 15 year old". Not exactly a "starving child" (nt)

[JVS]

259. Yeah, let's wait until someone has kwashiorkor before taking their hunger seriously!

:eyes:

[pipi_k]

273. Not only that, but...

I remember being carded all the time for alcohol and cigarettes. Even well into my 30s.

People would think that my kids were my brother and sister. When I was in a store with my 10 year old daughter one day, a clerk thought I was 15.

People have looked at the photo of me holding my 1 year old granddaughter. They thought I was 35. I was 51.

People aren't always such great judge of age...

[Forkboy]

283. Oh, alright then. Whew...for a minute I thought he was a hungry kid.

But as he was just disheveled teen, fuck him.

[JVS]

295. This thread is unbelievable.

[Forkboy]

297. Not really.

DU has lost the ability to surprise me anymore. :)

[Fumesucker]

310. Fifteen year olds are now adults?

I learn something new on DU nearly every day.

[JVS]

336. I guess when they get tried as adults so frequently, people lose track.

[kestrel91316]

328. Last I heard, 15-yr-olds were not adults.

[JVS]

245. I'd give him food.

Probably not all of it, I need food too. But I can easily afford to provide the kid with some bread and meat.

[pitohui]

184. my neighbor is dead because she didn't lock her car coming back from the grocery

while i realize the OP is a fable...as another poster points out, there are too many weird discrepancies and "friend of a friend" stuff in the story...i think we're all adults here and realize it's a fable about "ain't it awful"

it still touches home because down here in the real world MY neighbor is dead because she didn't lock her car coming back from the grocery

it only takes a moment, wrestling with one's baby, to be distracted, and some piece of shit can get in the back seat of your car or SUV

she was killed in cold blood in front of her baby and it took over 7 years to put her killer in prison, now that the baby is old enough to understand, how do you think that has effed with the innocent child's head?

any woman who leaves her car unlocked with keys in and engine running, EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY, is taking an incredible risk of being victimed

very few crackheads are out there stealing groceries, they are stealing LIVES

predators who target overwhelmed women aren't looking for a few bags of groceries, 99.99 percent of the time they're looking to take something of value, including your car, your child, your health, or your life

i don't care how old and worthless your CAR is, think about your body after some "desperate" scumbag has gotten through with it

if somebody just wants food, there are lots of ways to get food without breaking into someone's car

practice good awareness, practice good security, or you might lose a lot more than a few bags of groceries

[Supply Side Jesus]

252. People will belive what they want to, especially when it reinforces how 'right' they are.

I so sorry for your neighbor. Families are destroyed forever because predators who take what they want. Some people here on DU romanticize and excuse such behavior trying to access blame on others instead of the POS who needs to take responsibility for their actions.

[kestrel91316]

329. It's just as easy to call YOUR "neighbor" story a "fable". See how you

like it when the shoe's on the other foot.....

[suffragette]

186. Your neighbor reminds me of the Bishop in "Les Miserables"

whose kindness and empathy marks a positive turning point in the life of Jean Valjean.

Much as I despair of what has been happening to our country, people like your neighbor give me hope.

http://www.online-literature.com/victor_hugo/les_miserables/26/

[Never Stop Dancin]

256. stealing is never the answer (nm)

[defendandprotect]

268. Let's remember who the true thieves are -- Unregulated capitalism is organized crime -- !!

[BillyJack]

269. True - stealing is NOT the answer

So what IS the answer?

What was the question again? Oh, yeah.....the guy (and/or his family) was HUNGRY.....

So, what's the answer?

What would YOU do?

[progressiveinaction]

280. Fucking Bush!

That is all.

[Hippo_Tron]

330. I think it's interesting that people seem to need to make moral judgments one way or another

Rather than discussing your argument that in this country everybody should have access to enough food, so that there would be no reason to steal it.

[Never Stop Dancin]

339. how can I

change the forum settings so that the posts just go in chron order. This threade is impossible to read, follow when the #s are out of order and everyone is responding to each other.

[JoePhilly]

351. Some years ago ...

Some one stole my bicycle from my porch.

I bought a high school jacket, some one stole it.

As a poor college student, some one broke in and stole our TV, VCR, my change jar, and my suit case (to carry off my stuff). And a week later, they broke in again and emptied the refrigerator.

This all happened between 1980 and 1990.