Sex Trafficking of Americans: The Girls Next Door

[mzteris]

. . . here are more young American girls entering the commercial sex industry—an estimated 300,000 at this moment—and their ages have been dropping drastically. “The average starting age for prostitution is now 13,” says Rachel Lloyd, executive director of Girls Educational and Mentoring Services (gems), a Harlem-based organization that rescues young women from “the life.”

. . . The explanations offered for these downwardly expanding demographics are various, and not at all mutually exclusive. Dr. Sharon Cooper believes that the anti-intellectual, consumerist, hyper-violent, and super-eroticized content of movies (Hustle & Flow), reality TV (Cathouse), video games (Grand Theft Auto: Vice City), gangsta rap (Nelly’s “Tip Drill”), and cyber sites (Second Life: Jail Bait) has normalized sexual harm. “History is repeating itself, and we’re back to treating women and children as chattel,” she says. “It’s a sexually toxic era of ‘pimpfantwear’ for your newborn son and thongs for your five-year-old daughter.” Additionally, Cooper cites the breakdown of the family unit (statistically, absent or abusive parents compounds risk) and the emergence of vast cyber-communities of like-minded deviant individuals, who no longer have disincentives to act on their most destructive predatory fantasies. Krishna Patel, assistant U.S. attorney in Bridgeport, Connecticut, invokes the easy money. Criminals have learned, often in prison—where “macking” memoirs such as Iceberg Slim’s Pimp are best-sellers—that it’s become more lucrative and much safer to sell malleable teens than drugs or guns. A pound of heroin or an AK-47 can be retailed once, but a young girl can be sold 10 to 15 times a day—and a “righteous” pimp confiscates 100 percent of her earnings.

“There are basically two business models: manipulating girls through violence—that’s called ‘gorilla’ pimping—and controlling them with drugs,” . . .“Pimping,” Natalie says, “is not cool. A pimp is a wife beater, rapist, murderer, child-molester, drug dealer, and slave driver rolled into one.”

. . . Human trafficking—the commercial sexual exploitation of American children and women, via the Internet, strip clubs, escort services, or street prostitution—is on its way to becoming one of the worst crimes in the U.S.”

-more-

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/05/sex-trafficking-201105

[Johonny]

1. illegal, unregulated markets tend to suck

[mzteris]

2. evidently even the "regulated ones" do as well

'. . . That, in fact, is exactly the theory behind the Sex Purchase Law in Sweden. As of 1999, johns are punished by up to six months’ imprisonment, traffickers are locked up for 2-to-10-year hits, and prostitutes are offered medical care, education, and housing. As a result, prostitution has been reduced by 50 percent in Sweden, and the purchase of sex, which is understood to be a human-rights abuse, has decreased by 75 percent.

In contrast, Europol studies show, nations such as Holland and Australia, where prostitution has been legalized, have become lucrative, low-risk magnets for international sex-slave drivers and organized crime. On the subject of Sweden’s demand-side laws—which Finland and Norway have now adopted, and Denmark is currently considering—Sweden’s minister for justice, Beatrice Ask, notes, “If we could get rid of slavery, then I think this type of buying human beings is something that we have to fight too.” . . ."

[LadyHawkAZ]

17. Sweden...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2009/0630/p10s01-woeu.html

"WHEN THE LAW CAME INTO FORCE in 1999, street prostitution virtually vanished here, but in recent years it returned, prompting calls for a crackdown.

Nonetheless, compared with other European capitals, Stockholm's red-light district – a nondescript street perched on a hill above the commercial center – hardly deserves the name. Most prostitution in Sweden is mobile, and some estimates suggest less than 10 percent is operated from the streets.

This was an excellent summation of the problem with Sweden's "success":
http://www.globalrights.org/site/DocServer/Don_Kulick_on_the_Swedish_Model.pdf

Kulick notes the problems that everyone except the Swedish government and supporters are also noting: that it's been driven farther underground and made much less safe for the very people they are claiming to be helping. The claims of "success" of the Swedish model by the government have always very carefully stated that it has halved STREET prostitution; iow, "if we don't see it it isn't there, lalalala my fingers are in my ears and I can't hear you". Sweden wants very badly for this law to be viewed as successful, no matter who it destroys in the process, but the fact of the matter is that if what you are working toward is less trafficking and more safety for the workers, it's a flat failure.

Of course, if you define success by political leverage for people totally unaffected by the law, it's been a resounding victory. Depends on your perspective I guess.

Bonus article of interest: they're freezing them out of government benefits by refusing their tax money:
http://www.thelocal.se/14202/20080908/

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

23. Legalization does nothing to help or protect the most vulnerable participants in the sex trade

Brothels and escort services aren't terribly interested in employing the homeless or substance abusing. So they remain in the "car trade" as it is known in Europe where most of the violence has always occurred. This fact doesn't really fit in the Children's Anthology of Libertarian Fairytales so they just pretend it has ceased.

[Johonny]

53. wasn't a call for legalization

just pointing out illegal unregulated markets tend to suck. There may be markets some DUers wish were legalized and/or regulated. I doubt pedophilia and child prostitution is one of them. Thus where you find it, you're going to find a lot of ugly. They is always someone willing to go around regulations.
Regulations aren't a panacea, but they sure beat complete deregulation. If not I'd be a Republican.

[FreakinDJ]

89. Bullshit - countries where it is legalized don't have the Drug Addiction

that goes with 99% of prostitutes in countries where it is illegal

[sudopod]

100. lol XD

"Children's Anthology of Libertarian Fairytales"

[Fleshdancer]

3. Everyone should take a moment and read this entire article

It's a long read (8 pages), but it completely changed my "I don't care what consenting adults do" attitude toward prostitution. I was so incredibly ignorant about this topic. Just...wow.

Thank you for posting this Mzteris.

[mzteris]

5. absolutely.

The whole most prostitutes "do it cause they want to" lie makes me want to PUKE.

Prostitution is at its very core about abuse, power, and degradation.

[hfojvt]

10. I find the link to be ironic though

First pops up an ad for a subscription to Vanity Fair, which is helping to sell its magazine with a half-naked picture of Katy Perry on the front cover.

Then down the side of the page "featured" stories. First, an appaent beauty contest between Prince William's sister-in-law and a Zimbabwean "blonde bombshell". The "Diplo's tour diary" about the "high octane sex appeal" of "Tobago's dance party culture" and then some "charming candid snapshots" of a youngish Elizabeth Taylor sprawled on a bed and flashing her legs. Very nice, but they all seem to be a milder form of sex trafficing.

[mzteris]

19. yah, I noticed that.

Still, the article is powerful and warranted sharing.

The fact that "sex sells" in this Country IS the problem. I'm most certainly no prude - far far from it! - but I have really begun to reexamine the attitude towards sex in this generation. While I certainly do not want a return to the repression of earlier times, the guilt, the shame, the ignorance, etc... I don't believe that "sexing up" EVERY THING is in the best interest of human development.

We sexify CHILDREN for f's sake! We use sex to sell freaking toothpaste. What's next? Using sex to sell toilet cleanser?? (it's probably been done...)

We glorify sex. and violence. Children used to be CHILDREN - not mini-adults. They didn't "know" about sex. They weren't trying to dress sexy or be sexy. Nowadays? the things they know is almost embarrassing! Children should be protected and nurtured - not exploited and tarted up to look like little hookers.

[Fleshdancer]

29. Exactly!!!!

The ads were completely ridiculous next to this article. It made everything just that much more sad for me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. thats not entirely true either. prostitutes vary and pretending its all one way or the other

is just pretending.

[mzteris]

20. They may "vary" -

and while some few may be "empowered women" - the vast vast majority are abused and used and to think otherwise is sadly mistaken. Did you read the ENTIRE article? Yes, it's long. But it's a devastatingly horrid tale of what happens to too many women and girls.

[LadyHawkAZ]

22. ONE is too many

ONE molested child is too many, but no one advocates criminalizing marriage because pedophilia exists.

They don't criminalize one night stands either.

Think about it.

[riderinthestorm]

57. You're trying to equate marriage with pedophilia?

:wtf:

One molested child is too many period. We're talking prostitution which isn't anything like marriage or a one night stand.

I really don't get your point.

[LadyHawkAZ]

64. Your title made my point for me

while at the same time I think you missed that point entirely. Prostitution is to trafficking as marriage is to child molestation: criminalizing one because the other exists is not only not the answer, it isn't even AN answer. It's focusing the wrong direction entirely and punishing people for a crime someone else committed, while letting the actual offenders go free. It's the sexual equivalent of invading Iraq because a group of Saudis attacked us. Clearer now? They dig up bodies because of that thinking. They just dug up a batch a couple months back on Long Island. Any one of those could have been me.

Please articulate why prostitution is so different from marriage or a one night stand that people need to be jailed for it. I keep asking people this and they run away. Occasionally one will stop long enough to say some variation on "Because it just is!". Prostitution offers the least amount of complications of the three options. Why then am I mentally unable to consent in that one instance, but totally able to consent to a pickup in a bar, which is prostitution without the benefits, or a SAHM situation which in theory would be just as unequal, just as barter-based and orders of magnitude more complicated? I would really like to understand how people could think that way.

[riderinthestorm]

68. I've said it before, I said it below and I'll say it again without running away

Prostitution is different because it is harmful to the people involved - physically, emotionally and psychologically. It damages them and thus it damages our society. The collateral damage from the exploitation of children alone in the sex trade is significant enough that it needs to end. Some "lucky" few adults manage to live a healthy, non-exploited lifestyle but they are so few as to be statistically insignificant in comparison to the vast majority who are jeopardized.

A casual one night stand between two people in a bar is very different from a working prostitute and since you claim to have been one (are one?), and know people in the industry, you know that very well. Your principal source of income doesn't rely upon a daily invasion of your personal being vs being a prostitute, where that is the norm. As I stipulated in my post below, there are that few number of women who DO seek out serial one night stands BUT the difference is that they also aren't prostitutes, and the number of women who do engage in that behavior are very, very few. You could have 50 lovers over the course of a life lived before landing in a committed relationship and that wouldn't touch the number of johns a prostitute sees in a week.

As for marriage or a SAHM situation, wow, I can't even believe you can make the comparison to prostitution. The involvement of love, children, commitment and monogamy are complicating factors but the "damage" inflicted from those "complications" is far safer dare I say than getting beat up by your pimp, injected with dangerous substances, getting an incurable STD at age 12, or having a baby at 13. Your "theories" about the equalities of that kind of "barter" are seriously mind-blowing and frankly, virtually impossible to address adequately. If you've never been a parent or committed partner in a relationship, and thus you honestly can only "see" that kind of lifestyle as akin to a commercial transaction, I'm sure I can't explain it for you.

[LadyHawkAZ]

73. Well, that was totally non-condescending...

I don't agree with you, therefore I have never had a committed relationship or a child? I've birthed two children, raised five and will have my first step-grandchild in September. I've been in the current relationship for a year and a bit, the last one was 8 years long. FCOL. I disagree with you, but I have not made snide assumptions about your personal life to try and invalidate your statements. I'll thank you to return the favor.

You are equating child trafficking with adult prostitution. I'm going to say this again: do we criminalize marriage because pedophilia exists? No: one is consent, the other is rape. You are using a false equivalency: more, you are pointing to a trade that exists in part *because* prostitution is criminalized as evidence for why it should be criminalized. It's allowed greater scope to operate because too many resources are going toward prosecuting and jailing consenting adults- both workers and clients- and enforcement resources are finite. If your goal is to keep kids out of it, you're cutting your own throat and in a much more real sense, you are cutting theirs too.

Pickups vs. prostitution: no, they're not all that much different, although there are some differences and actually the workers can be pretty derisive towards some of the ones that are giving it away for free. It's a sex trade, but when you're working, it's not sex to the worker. It's work. Sex is what you have with your partner when you're not working. That's fun. So when we would see women in the local dives getting drunk off their ass and going home with a guy they very obviously aren't into, free gratis and for nothing, not for fun and not for profit, it made no sense to us. If you aren't doing it for the money or the pleasure, what's the point of doing it at all? It's a sorry way to live, and we could get pretty abrasive about that. None of us would have advocated sending them to jail for it, though. That's a pretty big difference too.

You were the one that claimed to have worked in a woman's shelter, I think- did love or monogamy make a prettier bruise or produce nicer blood than if a pimp did it, or a client? No, they do not. But you know what? When you call for help after your husband hits you, you're not risking jail time. When you have to live in constant fear of the police, the police do not get called when they are needed. That's another effect of criminalization, and it's a circular argument: criminalization produces abuse, which is then used to argue for continued criminalization. So who is being helped by it, exactly?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. this will be the hundredth article/report i have read on sex work

and circumstances vary depending on education, economic opportunities, countries, culture etc

[PavePusher]

16. That's what happens when you drive something into the black market/criminal underworld.

You remove at least 50% of the "consent" and "adult" from the process.

Legalize (for adults) and provide some oversight. That should cure much of the problem.

Unfortunately, some people get off on subjugating the young and powerless. I don't know how to stop that entirely. A blanket policy of "bullet in the back of the head" for the customers and vendors seems... crude and inflexible to exceptions for rare circumstances.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

25. Lets look at what has actually occured,

All legalization as applied in some other western countries has accomplished is a segregation of the sex trade where the criminals remain fully engaged in both elements.

In this segregation the sex trade is broken up into the "Car Trade" which we would call street prostitution and brothels and escort services. The "Car Trade" is more or less unchanged, it is where the most vulnerable participants are found and where the greatest physical violence occurs and pimps remain.

The other side is substantially different, but still fundamentally terrible as prostitution has been transformed from a criminal matter to an immigration one. Between local destigmatization and sex tourism the demand for prostitutes is increased, however it turns out remarkably few Western European women actually want to be prostitutes. So to fulfill demand criminal gangs (you know, the ones that don't exist in the Utopian libertarian sex trade) traffick women to meet demand. So when the police raid a brothel rather than arresting pimps, johns and prostitutes they are arresting illegal immigrants and the absurd speed at which most European countries deport illegal immigrants, even those who are material witnesses to a criminal conspiracy makes bringing charges against the sex traffickers almost impossible.

So in this much hyped scenario street prostitution remains unchanged and brutal as ever and boutique prostitution has simply shifted all the risk from the pimps and johns to the victims of sex trafficking who are treated as illegal immigrants rather than victims of a horrendous crime.

How is this considered a satisfactory outcome, much less a model for unquestioning duplication?

[pitohui]

27. i am sad to say the senator is correct, legalizing hasn't worked at all

in most of the country, it's legal to be a stripper, and that hasn't led to most strippers other than "features" having a decent life or a decent income, it seems like real income for a non-feature has dropped once everybody gets tipped out, and everybody is profiting but the stripper

there are areas of the country where prostitution is legal, such as some rural counties in nevada, and the girls report that the owners of the brothel somehow seem to wind up with all the money -- so they head back to work where it's illegal (clark county, las vegas, for example, where working whores are more visible than ever)

the growing acceptance of sex work means that it doesn't pay as well in real dollars as it once did AND it means that younger girls see other girls and women doing it, and they figure, what's the point in sitting on their ass when they could be cashing in? not to be crude, but teens ARE crude, a lot of them are, they have to be because there are so few jobs out there any more for teens, you are supposed to be willing to volunteer/intern (work for free) so what is the motive to seek legal work that isn't there or doesn't pay?

we CAN'T legalize a 13 year old selling her ass, so the usual crap about "legalize," is just that, crap -- the youngest and most vulnerable girls in this business wouldn't be legal under any decent form of regulation, so the illegal trade will continue -- and that's exactly what we have seen, the illegal trade seems to be more open and obvious than ever, even as there are more legal avenues for the wealthy to purchase their thrills

i can't see where having legal outlets to work as a whore has done much for whores other than cause the price for their services to fall in real dollars since the 1980s, while the risk of life-changing disease such as HIV has risen

legal brothels, may protect the BUYER of the service, but let's not pretend that legalizing this business does all that much to protect the actual seller of the service

that said, i support legalization/regulation because tossing women into jail for prostitution doesn't make the problem any better...but i don't think there is the slightest evidence that legalization prostitution does ANYTHING to help under-age hookers and many of age hookers complain that legalization actually costs them income (in taxes, tests, compliance, tipping out every fucking body)

[LadyHawkAZ]

35. Actually it does a lot

the brothels have panic buttons and security in case of problems, and condoms are mandated. The disease transmission rate in the Nev. brothels is close to zero since the 90s. I think a better environment might be a co-op design, rather than a brothel design, but current laws make that impossible- the only legal place to work in Nevada IS a brothel.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

37. So, you think the moonlight bunny ranch is going to hire all the junkies on Gladys Street?

And let them work out of their nice safe and clean brothel? I'm guessing not.

[LadyHawkAZ]

40. So you think the junkies anywhere are better off

than the brothel workers? I'm guessing not.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

42. No, but boutique prostitution is irrelevant to their plight

The fundamental problem with this debate is applying the sex trade of reality TV to the real world circumstances of sex trade victims is ridiculous. Maybe we should let the contestants on The Apprentice take a stab at fixing Boeing.

[LadyHawkAZ]

44. That's odd.

I was applying the sex trade on the streets, which I worked in, and the sex trade of the legal brothels, where I did know a fair number of workers and a couple of security guards, to the circumstances of sex trade workers, consenting and trafficked. What on earth were you discussing?

[bluestate10]

76. I lost track too. So you weren't the only one. There seemed to have been

a point lost in what seemed an emotional offensive against all prostitution. If the people that want to prohibit the sex trade would take their blinders off and realize that not all prostitutes are working against their will, they would make enormously more progress in their efforts.

[sudopod]

101. Winning post, Sen. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

104. It might have been a good zinger

if he hadn't been talking to an actual "victim".

[sudopod]

105. I'm sorry for what happened to you, but how does that make him wrong? nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

106. I've now made several posts worth of solutions

and rebuttals, with references thrown in on the side. Boiled down, he is wrong because what he advocates kills people. It forces sex workers into an underground environment and into abusive situations while depriving them of the ability to call for help, then digs them out of isolated graves or picks up the bodies off the side of the road. It provides excellent cover for adult and child traffickers because the resources needed to deal with them are wasted jailing non-trafficked women and their clients, and actually they are also jailing trafficked children and giving them adult criminal records: see post #88 or #91. And he also advocated that, even if legalized, police should use their authority to harass workers and trump up charges to run them back underground- back into the abuse he claims to want to rescue them from: see post #92. A better question might be: how is he RIGHT?

And while I appreciate the sympathy, there's a reason "victim" was in quotes. I'm one of those consenting adults that no one wants to think exist, but do. I'm a former Vegas prostitute. It's why I advocate so loudly for legalization/regulation- I've worked in the business and know exactly what criminalization does and does not.

[PavePusher]

30. Take the hook out by allowing visas for the sex trade.

This would remove the problem of the "illegal immigrant" portion by which women are dissuaded from seeking help due to fear of deportation.

Make "sex worker" a legitimate trade, with government oversight for health and working conditions, no different than any other job/industry.

I've never understood the demonization of mutually consenting recreational, transactional sex. It makes no sense financially, morally or socially. Maybe I'm just... weird.

Edit: I should probably add a word here: unionize.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

32. Libertarian Fantasy #848: "Eastern European and Asian women want to be prostitutes"

I have never understood the creepy libertarian rationalization of sexual exploitation. Consent is the absence of force, not the absence of coercion. Morally speaking how is a woman forced into prostitution by poverty, addiction or criminals any different than a woman forcibly assaulted?

[LadyHawkAZ]

34. Morally speaking

how is a woman who barters sex for dinner and drinks, or a ring and a house, any different than one who barters for straight cash? What amount of jail time do you think would be appropriate for having sex with a woman immediately after presenting her with a valuable gift, since the gift has made her unable to consent?

If we are so childish and mentally deficient that we cannot be trusted with a straightforward cash transaction, how can we be trusted to handle something as complicated as a relationship? Or raising children? Or a job?

There is no difference, moral or otherwise, between a woman forced into prostitution by criminals and one forcibly assaulted, they are the exact same crime. It is as different from consensual prostitution as rape is from consensual sex. You do not propose criminalizing consensual sex because some women get raped, I presume?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

39. So what is consensual prostitution?

How many women do you imagine are participating in prostitution completely outside the influence of poverty, addiction or criminality? They exist, I am just not going to excuse systemic sexual exploitation because some high-rent call girls don't have it too bad. I hear if your a millionaire the US healthcare system is pretty good too.

[LadyHawkAZ]

41. Thank you

for answering absolutely none of my questions. That says everything anyone needs to know.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. strawman rhetorical questions need no answer,

You are claiming moral equivalency between sex in a monogamous relationship and prostitution.

[LadyHawkAZ]

46. Yep. Barter is barter.

You are claiming offering a trade of some value (cash or other items) for sex removes the ability to consent- that was your claim in post #32, that exchanging sex for an item of value is coercion. I would like to know a) why you consider the same bartering to be mentally debilitating for one type of transaction but not for another and b) if you consider us too weak-minded to consent in a simple circumstance, how can we be considered competent to consent in a complicated one? They are valid questions and relevant to the issue, i.e. not strawmen.

[riderinthestorm]

59. The senator answered you but you keep glossing over it: commitment and monogamy.

There are rare women who go for one night stands but the vast majority do not. And if they were pressured into having sex after dinner and drinks with their date, I really doubt they'd be back. I agree that kind of woman exists but you're equating consensual prostitution to consensual casual sex and that isn't well, equitable.

One is a profession (prostitution) engaged in on a daily and hourly basis, and the other is a date. There is a difference no matter how you want to spin it. I believe women can make those distinctions.

The OP however points out that those who are typically engaged in prostitution have lost the ability to make those kinds of choices about sex for various reasons. And they are children in a great many cases.

My perspective, viewpoint and opinion comes from a completely different angle: as a rape crisis advocate and volunteer, and women's shelter volunteer for decades. Women are ill served by prostitution legal or illegal, even the vast majority of women in Nevada's legal brothels are desperate to escape if I'm remembering the most recent stats.

[LadyHawkAZ]

70. headdesk

They are not rare. Women having sex outside a committed, monogamous relationship are high. And if you've worked in women's shelters, you are well aware that they do go back. You're also well aware how dangerous that committed, monogamous relationship can be. Can we still consent to casual sex and marriage, in spite of the known problems?

A hundred years ago women could be committed for engaging in casual sex at all. The reasoning was the same: Women only function sexually in marriage (a monogamous, committed relationship). In the absence of that monogamous relationship, a woman couldn't want sex, so there was obviously something mentally wrong with her. Then it was nymphomania, now it's prostitution. Same tired old argument, just a shift in goalposts.

Children are de facto unable to consent whether prostitution is legal or illegal, or the sex is paid or casual. That's an entirely different area from adult consent, any form of adult consent.

As for the brothel workers, would those be the same ones that came out swinging when Harry Reid threatened their livelihood? I don't know where you get your stats from. I suspect Melissa Farley. Not all of them like the brothel system as it stands because it puts too much power over scheduling and finances in the hands of the brothel owners, but they prefer to keep it as is than have it outlawed completely. They are not desperate to escape. Good grief.

My perspective, viewpoint and opinions come from several years of prostitution in Nevada, and personal relationships with brothel workers- both sexual and nonsexual staff. Also a lot of time spent in research on the subject.

[PavePusher]

48. How is one consensual physical act (sex) morally different...

from any other consensual physical act (manual labor, building a fence, for example)?

The only way I can see that is if you place some religous restrictions on sex, in which case this becomes a discussion about an entirely different subject.

[riderinthestorm]

58. Opening your body to penetration isn't any way like building a fence

The only way you can see it like that is if you are an unfeeling partner without regard for your partner. Sex is fraught with emotional and psychological ramifications with riffs on power, abuse, consent and other intangible factors that are far more complicated than simply building a fence.

I'd really hate to be your lover.

Did you read the article? The OP is about the exploited, the abused, and the children who are involved in trafficking and sex work. The average age is 13 years old. This isn't about building a fence for gawds sake.

[LadyHawkAZ]

62. And people use that abuse of young children

as an excuse to put consenting adults in jail, with the result that resources get diverted from the actual problem, trafficking gets worse, conditions for all sex workers get worse, abuse becomes more common, access to help becomes impossible and people die. That's why it comes up in subjects like this, and why it's important.

[riderinthestorm]

63. Sorry but sometimes that's what societies decide to do and I'm okay with that

to stop the abuse.

We regulate a ton of stuff that adults could do because we as a society have decided that the risks outweigh the liberty. We require motorcycle helmets and seat belts by law to try to minimize damaged people. We have minimum driving ages and for some professions like pilots, maximum flying ages.

We have thousands of what you obviously want to call "nanny state" laws and while I don't agree with all of them, I do agree that prostitution must be illegal and not for religious reasons but because too many people get hurt. Far more get hurt than are simply consensual adults. Since we (the royal we) can't be trusted to regulate ourselves when it comes to exploitative sex, laws are made, same as we can't trust people to buckle up or drink and drive or (insert your pet peeve here).

[LadyHawkAZ]

67. We have helmet and seatbelt laws

but do not criminalize riding and driving. We require safety but don't outlaw the enterprise.

We have minimum/maximum ages for some jobs, but we don't solve that by criminalizing those jobs. We make them legal for able adults, for maximum safety, and prosecute those who hire those too young or otherwise unable to safely do the job. You used the important word: we "regulate", as much as possible, for maximum safety but we don't make them a felony for all. We do not jail fishermen because their job is too dangerous and we certainly don't jail people who buy the fish.

Did criminalization help or harm the eight women they just dug up in New York?

[riderinthestorm]

69. I don't know anything about the women in NY.

I've been offline for a while due to personal circumstances and catching up on work today. Since it's raining I'm inside and doing paperwork which allows me some free time to be on DU but that time alas, is running out. I'm sure I'll find the story later tonight but for now I don't know the story.

That's fine if you want to seize on the regulatory aspect of my examples. I was trying to make a point that we do make "nanny state" laws to implement public safety. Obviously my examples weren't exactly correct so how about this: we criminalize and outlaw meth production because it damages people and society. Prostitution does the same.

Better?

[LadyHawkAZ]

75. Here's a link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/05/ap/national/main20050734.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;1


As for meth: not a bad example actually, we did the same with alcohol in the 30s and it was every bit the disaster the drug war has been. The drug war is a profitable industry, otherwise it would have gone the way of prohibition by now. Here's a good article on the effects of decriminalization of drug use:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

It all depends what's more important to people: making a vague moral point and getting people killed, or harnessing as much safety to it as possible and keeping people alive. Prostitution is the same. Our society, unfortunately, prefers to go the high-nosed, judgemental route (particularly when sex is concerned and especially when women's sexuality is concerned) and unfortunately a lot of people buy into it thinking they're doing something to help. Eventually we'll get past that, but I'd like to see it hurry along a little faster before the body count gets too much higher. It changes your whole perspective when you know just how easily it could have been you being dug out of a shallow grave.

[bluestate10]

83. All forms of meth production damages people and society.

Not all forms of prostitution damages society. The example that LadyhawkAz give concerning regulation was exactly on point. Your parry seems to be wholly emotional. Prostitution of all kinds is bad in your mind, therefore rational laws to cull out the parts where prostitutes are treated as slaves or otherwise abused won't work, simply you have your mind made up that prostitution of all types is a cancer on society.

[bluestate10]

82. Young children do not drive because society regulate to prevent them

from driving under a certain age. You argument against prostitution may not be religious, but to me it is emotional. To get back to your teen driving example, or licensing of pilots. It prostitution was legalized and regulated, anyone caught offering or having sex with an unlicensed prostitute can and should be arrested and prosecuted, no questions asked.

If an adult lets a 14 year old drive their car and that 14 year old gets stopped because cops know that anyone that looks like a 14 year does not drive, the adults gets arrested and prosecuted. Rational prostitution laws would over a small time period accomplish removal of exploited or other teens from the sex trade.

[PavePusher]

65. You are projecting.

Mutually negotiated sex can be about many different things. It can be an economic transaction, it can be about short or long-term mutual physical pleasure, varying degrees of commitment, procreation, an expression of deep feelings, or just moist sweaty exercise. This has been true for millenia. Ignoring reality does not change reality.

I offered some ways to reduce some of the problems with prostitution for adults. I freely admitted that I do not know what to do about the mental illness that involves abusing children, other than a very drastic penalty when caught.

[bluestate10]

79. The Senator appears to want to shut down all prostitution.

No one in the history of humankind has managed to do that. Nor will the Senator. To me the issue comes down to control of prostitution. As long as prostitution is illegal people like pimps will have shelter in shadows.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

85. I would be in favor of that, acknowledging it isn't realistic

And in Europe legalization has given the pimps greater shelter than they have ever enjoyed before.

[LadyHawkAZ]

88. Actually, they've found that legalization makes traffickers

easier to identify and catch. The big complaint that I've seen, and it's one that's shared by most countries no matter what the legal status of prostitution, is that the jail time is usually rather short.

Edit to add: Want to know what happens to those rescued children? Here's criminalization at its finest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/opinion/24kristof.html?_r=1

http://issuu.com/gems/docs/26-31_sextrafficking_low

Adult women can't consent, but apparently children can and are charged under the adult laws. Has this helped? Who has it helped?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

92. Yet, they immediately deport the victims without so much as taking a statement

Immigration authorities aren't interested in or equipped to investigate sex crimes. Voluntary removal sees women deported in mere hours. The immigration cops just say "want to go home today?" and on the next plane they go. Often with the gang waiting on the other end to reclaim their "property" for delivery to another western European destination.

With rare exceptions I have no interest in prosecuting the women themselves, but pimps, johns and traffickers require harsh punishment. Known traffickers should permanently have their passports revoked and standing Interpol red notices. And even where legal the police have no trouble racking up charges against street prostitutes to encourage them to get lost.

[LadyHawkAZ]

95. Links please

all the reports I'm reading say that Germany and the Netherlands provide temporary visas for foreign victims who are in the country illegally, and allow them to apply for asylum.

[LadyHawkAZ]

96. Wait...what??

I had to come back and re-read that last paragraph before it clicked. You're trying to help abused and trafficked women, and your helpful solution is POLICE HARASSMENT, so they'll move on to where decent folk don't have to see them?

You want to make laws that will drive them to abusers and possibly get them killed, allow traffickers to hide more easily, waste enforcement money on jailing adults while pedophiles walk free, and if we don't comply with that, you want the authorities to harass the workers until they get out of your sight.

Excuse me? This helps HOW? This helps WHAT? This helps WHO?

[ChazII]

97. Can't speak for AZ or the US but here

is a link to an organization that is helping young women who are rescued from their pimps.

http://daughtersofcambodia.org/

and on FB

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Daughters-of-Cambodia/100951179961175

[LadyHawkAZ]

98. One from the US

http://www.gems-girls.org/

The founder is a former trafficked teen.

[ChazII]

99. Thank you,LadyHawkAZ

The more information given the better.

[sudopod]

102. I'm as godless as a cat

and it is obvious to a souless bastard like me that comparing the emotional, social, and biological ramifications of sex and the vast influence it has over our lives to building a fence is is absurd. As long as our minds are clothed in natural flesh, the power sex hold over us will be an undeniable part of the human condition.

As the Senator has pointed out time and again, indulging in Libertarian fantasies will not stop the pleasure centers of monsters and sociopaths from being ignited by the abuse they aim at women. This sort of evil is about having power over the powerless and the enjoyment thereof. The money is just icing on the cake, and focusing on the "business" is a waste of time. The only way to end this is to change human nature. Until we can do that, all we can do is staunch the wounds by punishing the pimps and johns and caring for the victims.

[bluestate10]

78. Your arguments appear to be purely emotional. You seem to hate the

idea of a person selling his or her body, even if willingly. It is easy to keep rational prostitutions laws from being enacted, it's a lot tougher to rationally examine the facets of prostitution and regulate them so that forced prostitution is eliminated. I have news for you, prostitutes sell themselves because of poverty, that has been done for centuries and won't end.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

84. My arguments are based on having worked with victims of sex trafficking

Women who had their lives stolen so strange men could abuse them. This makes me somewhat impervious to libertarian bullshit on the subject. None of the "enlightened" European policies have done anything to stop forced prostitution. The ultimate "problem" is that very few women wish to receive the bodily fluids of strange men for money, human smugglers are however happy to assist in meeting demand. Legalization increases local demand and encourages sex tourism, seeing as that whole replicant business didn't work out the prostitutes have to come from somewhere and that will involve unwilling trafficked participants.

[LadyHawkAZ]

90. Has criminalization stopped sex trafficking? n/t

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

93. It certainly reduces it

The volume of trafficking into Western Europe is driven by demand which is stimulated by destigmatizing johns and sex tourism.

[LadyHawkAZ]

94. Links to reductions please

Prostitution is a felony for both prostitute and client in the Philippines. Here is how well that's worked:
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/philippi.htm

"The number of prostituted persons in the Philippines is about the size of the country's manufacturing workforce, according to Rene Ofreneo, a former Philippine labor undersecretary and an expert on the sex trade. (Dario Agnote, "Sex trade key part of S.E. Asian economies, study says," Kyodo News, 18 August 1998)"

The article is a decade old and the laws on child trafficking have been made stricter in 2003 and again in 2009, with the result that trafficking estimates have gone exactly nowhere:
http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/philippines

The Philippines is a Tier 2 country.

Who's been helped?

[PavePusher]

49. Yikes, your title is not at all what I was thinking or attempting to imply.

But thanks for the projection/insinuation, or whatever that was.

My point was that sex should be treated as no different than any other physical act.

[bluestate10]

77. Every person that provide sex do it for money. The issue should be whether

they do sex work for their benefit. Regulated Visas would be an effective way to control human trafficking. But some people have so much emotion invested in shutting down prostitution that they always find fault with even good ideas.

[Liquorice]

36. +100. It's not a profession. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

11. I read it. It didn't change my attitude one bit.

I'm still very much pro-legalize, pro-regulate rather than wasting time and resources that COULD be used on traffickers to lock up consenting adults. It doesn't work. It has never worked. It will never work. A policy that has failed for thousands of years is a policy that needs to be discarded.

[lapislzi]

24. I used to think the way you do

Until I reached the end of the article and the discussion of the Swedish model. Change the demand dynamic and you change the nature of the business fundamentally. Perhaps a combination of legalization/regulation accompanied by prosecution of johns and pimps who operate outside the law would be effective in helping to eliminate this problem.

[LadyHawkAZ]

33. See my post #17 above on the Swedish model

It hasn't worked.

Your solution is what I advocate for.

[Taverner]

52. I read the whole article, and I still am in the "I don't care what consenting adults do" camp

However, I have always felt it needs regulation.

Every single horror story in the article could have been solved with legal prostitution, regulated by city officials

[mzteris]

54. you read it and think these were "consenting adults"?

THEY WERE CHILDREN!

How is "legalizing prostitution" going to help that?

Did you read the part about where "legal prostitution" is STILL a hotbed or crime and organized crime? About the exploitation of women?

[Taverner]

60. Obviously Children cannot consent

But legal and REGULATED prostitution would do two things:

1 - It would provide a way for a city to regulate the industry, and a way for older CSWs to alert the city to children in the industry and

2 - It would pay for itself with a tax imposed on every 'trick'

If we continue to just 'hope the cops get 'em' then nothing will change

Legalize and regulate, and Child Prostitution could be eliminated

Let me ask you, when is the last time you heard of someone dying from Wood Alcohol poisoning?

[mzteris]

71. I'm sorry, you're mistaken

Legalizing will do nothing to eliminate child prostitution - because there are sick fks who only want children. Who only WANT the degradation and complete control and power they have over a slave.

And again, if you had read the article, you'd've read that organized crime thrives on "legal prostitution".

Beside, no person with any real CHOICE in life would ever consent to be nothing but a piece of meat for another person. Who ever says, Gee, I want to grow up to be a prostitute. I want to be nothing but a receptacle. a punching bag. a THING to be used.

People DO still die from "alcohol poisoning". Oh? You didn't know that people still make moonshine?

[Taverner]

72. Um, by your logic then whether CSW is legal or illegal is irrelevant then

So either way, you're wrong


The more light that is shined on the industry, the greater the chance we'll catch them

[LadyHawkAZ]

91. It would keep trafficked kids out of jail, for one

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/opinion/24kristof.html?_r=1
http://issuu.com/gems/docs/26-31_sextrafficking_low
http://rt.com/news/underage-prostitution-trafficking-us/

Who got helped by this?

[LiberalFighter]

4. Suggestions:

Prohibit pre-teen beauty contests.
Prohibit sexy clothing for pre-teens.

Probably too little and too late.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. this will help teens from getting kidnapped and forced into sex work?

really?

[Taverner]

61. Somehow if we make it more illegal, the exploiters of children will just stop

:eyes:

[buddysmellgood]

6. Just a reminder of what planet we live on:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110528/ap_en_ot/us_porn_industry_condoms

[LadyHawkAZ]

47. About damn time that happened n/t

[JPZenger]

7. Even importation from Ohio to Pennsylvania

A few years ago, there was a study of young prostitutes arrested near Harrisburg PA in truck stops. It turned out they were mostly from Toledo Ohio. It showed an organized effort to recruit young women and then to take them to a place where they were unfamiliar and where they would have a tougher time finding people who could help them get away from their pimps.

[lunatica]

8. If the average age is 13 that means there are lots who are younger

Our society isn't the wonderful thing some people think it is.

[riderinthestorm]

56. AVERAGE age in the sex trade is 13 years old, bears repeating

But some still want this to be about consensual sex between adults....

[XanaDUer]

9. America, heal thyself

:mad:

[RagAss]

13. The end of an empire is laced with such realities.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. i bet the middle and beginning of empires are not all about respecting women's bodies either

[Chan790]

66. or women themselves either.

I mean it's only been 400+ years and the Brits are finally accepting the Queen Elizabeth I might not have died a virgin. Makes you wonder what pray-tell they thought she was doing with Sir Walter Raleigh behind closed doors when she was making such a racket of orgasmic sounds; clearly they were playing cribbage.

Let's not even get into the murders and corpse-desecration of Hatshepsut, Nefertiti and Cleopatra.

[onethatcares]

15. if it were men that were kidnapped or ensnared and

forced into a life of either "get it up or get gone" you'd see some mighty fine anti sex trafficing laws. Same as with men getting pregnant, there'd be abortion clinics on every corner with low price wars going on.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

26. While in smaller numbers men and boys are sex trafficked too

In the US it is mostly limited to a couple of cities, mostly L.A. and San Francisco, somewhat New York but it is quite common in the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia.

[ChazII]

86. Thank you for this information.

for pointing out that boys are also being trafficked.

[KittyWampus]

18. A free local paper has touched on this w/their investigations of bodies found here.

I think it's way more pervasive and that there is a higher echelon of this going on. I suspect the very wealthy engage in human trafficking on a whole other level.

[chrisa]

55. It's actually pretty widely known.

There are a number of circles of sociopathic millionaires that knowingly buy sex-trafficking victims. I wonder how they justify this in their mind, or if they simply just don't care? It's probably the latter.

[eShirl]

21. "Second Life: Jail Bait" ??

Never heard of it before, and I'm not finding it anywhere...

[closeupready]

38. Oops, sorry, I cross-posted the same story

K&R yours.

[mzteris]

50. the more that read it

the better.

[riderinthestorm]

45. K & R, I've been out of town and off line for days but just got home and was skimming headlines

until I got to this OP.

Wow! too late to do more than kick and rec but thanks for posting. Hopefully, after I catch up with work for the next couple of days I can come back and comment more if the thread's still active. It's after midnight though and 6 am is around the corner.

Great, great article. Thanks for this again, I agree 110%.

[petronius]

51. This is tangential, but I wondered about the motel chains involved

Motel 6 and Super 8 are national, even if they are franchises - I would think they should be involved somehow (either on the prevention side, or the defendant side).

They also don't mention pornography, but I wonder to what extent these girls are involved in that so-called 'amateur' genre that is so prevalent...

[BlueIris]

74. Yeah--few really examine those who enable these crimes.

Mass forced prostitution of underage females couldn't happen without the consent of many members of society.

[U4ikLefty]

80. When the word "pimp" is seen with digust, I will celebrate.

[Texasgal]

81. Bookmarking for later.

Thank you for the article.

[ChazII]

87. My next letter to the editor

will one of thanks for publishing this article. Now, if only Cosmopolitan and other magazines aimed at women would publish stories about the trafficking industry. This story hits close to home as a member of our church had a daughter kidnapped over a drug deal gone bad.

[underpants]

103. marking for later read

bookmarking actually