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Consent Ends When Person is Asleep or Unconscious Canada SC Court Rules

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 03:16 AM
Original message
Consent Ends When Person is Asleep or Unconscious Canada SC Court Rules
Edited on Mon Jun-06-11 03:29 AM by sabrina 1
The ruling has sparked some controversy with some people believing it 'infantalizes' women, while others argue that it will help to prevent sexual assault.



Supreme Court of Canada: Consent Ends When Person Falls Asleep or Unconscious

In a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that having sex with someone who is unconscious or asleep is a sexual assault, even if the person gave consent prior to passing out. On the surface, this seems logical enough, but it stems from a complicated case that has people divided on the appropriateness and consequences of this decision:


One evening, in the course of sexual relations, J.A. placed his hands around the throat of his long‑term partner K.D. and choked her until she was unconscious. At trial, K.D. estimated that she was unconscious for "less than three minutes." She testified that she consented to J.A. choking her, and understood that she might lose consciousness. She stated that she and J.A. had experimented with erotic asphyxiation, and that she had lost consciousness before.


The Supreme Court decision further explains that when K.D. regained consciousness, her hands were tied behind her back, and J.A. was performing certain unagreed-upon sexual acts on her, which he stopped when she regained conciousness. The two then continued with consensual sexual activities and, when they were finished, J.A. cut K.D.'s hands loose.

K.D. filed a complaint with police, which eventually led to J.A. being found guilty of sexual assault. That verdict was later overturned by the Ontario Court of Appeal prior to being reversed by the Supreme Court of Canada last week.


Those in favor of the decision, such as Elizabeth Sheehy, a lawyer for the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund, believe it is a victory for women. "The most important message that the court is communicating is that unconcious women are not sexually available."

Those against the decision, one of whom is Justice Morris Fish, believe it "would deprive women of their freedom to engage by choice in sexual adventures that involve no proven harm to them or to others".

Others who oppose it fear that the ruling could criminalize something as simple as a husband giving his wife a kiss on the cheek while she is sleeping.

Columnist Rosie DiManno from The Star eg, vehemently opposes the ruling:

Warning: This article is fairly sexually explicit. Not sure if DU rules require a warning for sexually explicit material, but just in case:

DiManno: Supreme Court’s consent ruling infantilizes women

Yes means no, by the Supreme Court’s reckoning, even when the complainant has said yes-no-yes and admitted under oath that the charge was provoked — two months after the incident —by a custody dispute between the couple.

......

A perfectly contradictory statement — the law excels at them — yet a concept that makes sense in circumstances pondered by the Supreme Court before: A woman’s right to withdraw consent at any time during a sexual act and the legal presumption that no consent can be given when an individual is unaware — asleep, blotto or unconscious.

......

But those circumstances were not quite applicable in these circumstances, as the Ontario Court of Appeal found when those tall foreheads reversed the conviction last year.

Indeed, the convoluted details were so specific to this couple’s relationship that there appears no good rationale for investing it with Supremo consequence for all when appeal was sought by the Crown and the Women’s Legal Education and Action Fund (LEAF), an intervenor in the case.


I don't think I like it either ....

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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. I do - a lot
People should absolutely have the right to withdraw consent at any time during a sexual act and for good reason. Having sex with an unconscious or otherwise unaware person even when they agree to it beforehand doesn't mean that you can engage in acts with that person they have not agreed to as being unconscious or otherwise unaware they wouldn't be in a position to do anything about it or be able to withdraw consent for any other reason such as pain.

It's this part that matters: "yet a concept that makes sense in circumstances pondered by the Supreme Court before: A woman's right to withdraw consent at any time during a sexual act and the legal presumption that no consent can be given when an individual is unaware — asleep, blotto or unconscious". That should read a "person's" right, not just a woman's right... I can easily see how such a circumstance could just as much apply to a man.


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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, there are arguments to be made from both sides.
It comes down to a matter of trust and depends on the people involved. I haven't really thought it through yet, so I don't have a firm opinion other than, I am not sure about the Government being in people's bedrooms.

What about people who enjoy unorthodox sex and CAN trust each other? I suppose they will simply do what they do. After all, unless someone reports it, nothing is going to happen as the police won't be peering into people's bedrooms. So, I suppose at this point, I am leaning towards agreeing with it.

As far as you last sentence, I believe that actual ruling does refer to 'persons' not just women and I did I did read somewhere that it does apply to men as the law is written.
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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. I guess Meredith Viera and her husband need to stay out of Canada
I saw her on some talk show once, and she said that her husband has his way with her all the time while she's asleep. Either she's the soundest sleeper I've ever heard of, or her husband needs to work on his technique. :)
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Lol! But if she's that sound a sleeper, how does she know he's
having his way with her? I can see where this law could be a problem eg, if a woman accuses her husband of having sex with her while she's asleep wouldn't the defense ask that obvious question 'but if you were asleep, how do you know, maybe you were dreaming'?

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. I was fine with the decision until I got to the part where she waited
2 months to come forward and did so in the midst of a custody dispute.
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The Unawriter Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. Makes sense to me
Recced.
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Welibs Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is very different than redefining RAPE as the Republicans are
trying to do. Gee, imagine the law protecting women!!! NOT IN THE USA though.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
8. So if you have "buyer's remorse" the next day or 2 months later
all you have to do is be the first one to the police department & claim you were unconscious.

And folks wonder why people doubt these kinds of cases?

dg
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Good point, and in the case that resulted in the law
the woman admitted she only went because they were involved in a custody battle, to try to force her husband to stop his demands for custody.

And that turned into a mess, one court finding him guilty, another exonerating him.

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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Bad facts make bad law
and in this case, it's law that continues the assumption that women are too stupid to have any sort of control over their own sexual conduct.

dg
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
10. Assange is charged with having sex with a sleeping woman....
quite interesting.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Actually Assange has never been charged with anything.
He is wanted for questioning, a ploy to drag out a case they clearly don't have or they WOULD have filed charges after all this time.

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eggplant Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wouldn't this apply to surgery under anasthesia as well?
you consent beforehand, they do things to you while you are under.

THe problem I have with this is that she consented before AND reaffirmed it after. Two months later, it's buyer's remorse.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Good question. I wonder if they considered all these things
when they passed this law?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Uh-Oh, this topic AWAYS brings out the rape apologists.
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