A 9 year old girl is dead along with 5 other people.

[no limit]

Can everyone please think about this fact for a little bit instead of trying to cash in politically on this absolutely horrible tragedy? Its barely been 24 hours, can we all please show a little respect?

[Odin2005]

1. That little girl is a martyr of RW evil.

[Ineeda]

You're right Odin

and sadly, it eventually would have been another little girl or elderly bystander or public official. The RW hate/violence rhetoric has been building to this conclusion for over two years now. I fear this won't be the last of it, particularly because the RW does, to a person, not acknowledge any responsibility for any of the buildup or the inevitable consequences. On the contrary, they vehemently deny it and have the gall to accuse the Left of participating. To the OP: if not now, when????

[uppityperson]

2. How does placing blame take away from being horrified about her death.

rec'd by accident, meant to unrec

[no limit]

4. Placing blame on who exactly? Sara Palin because of an ad she put out 10 months ago?

I assume you have some actual evidance behind that blame?

[uppityperson]

5. How does blaming hate rhetoric take away from being horrified at Christina's death?

Do you seriously believe hateful rhetoric had no part in encouraging a mentally ill man to do this?

[no limit]

7. I have absolutely no idea what encouraged him to do this. You don't either.

You are sepculating. You are taking a terrible trategy that killed a 9 year old girl along with 5 other people and using it to assign blame to people you don't like without any kind of evidance. You and plenty of other people here started exploiting this within hours of it happening without any kind of information.

[uppityperson]

12. This was not a "trategy" but murder of Christina and 5 others.

How does saying hateful rhetoric encourages people to do hateful harmful things, to think hateful harmful ways take away from being horrified by Christina's death?

[no limit]

17. You didn't answer my question. And yes, this is a tragedy

Do you know for a fact that this person did what he did based on what Sara Palin or the RW said?

[uppityperson]

22. You haven't answered my questions yet either.

Of course I don't know if Sarah Palin's map with cross hairs and rhetoric was seen by Jarred. That is not what I am saying.


How does saying hateful rhetoric encourages people to do hateful harmful things, to think hateful harmful ways take away from being horrified by Christina's death?

Do you seriously believe hateful rhetoric had no part in encouraging a mentally ill man to do this?

[no limit]

26. What question did I not answer. The one you just repeated? Because I did answer that

I guess I'll repeat my answer for you.

Is hateful rhetoric dangerous? Absolutely. Do I think hateful rhetoric played a part in this shooting? I have absolutely no idea. You don't either. But here you are pretending that you do.

[uppityperson]

35. No, you didn't. Try again...

Your OP is about showing respect for the dead, including Christina (did you know her name? do you know her birthdate? Ironic, isn't it?). So, to repeat...

How does saying hateful rhetoric encourages people to do hateful harmful things, to think hateful harmful ways take away from being horrified by Christina's death?

That is what I am saying, hateful rhetoric encourages people to do hateful harmful things.

You say you have no idea if, in this instance, hateful rhetoric encouraged Jarred to shoot Christina. I disagree. No proof of what he heard or read, but am sure that he has heard/read some if he listened to radio, watched tv, read much political ads, etc as it is rampant.

Now, back to you OP, how does saying hateful rhetoric encourages people to do hateful harmful things, to think hateful harmful ways take away from being horrified by Christina's death or show disrespect?

[no limit]

saying "hateful rhetoric encourages people to do hateful harmful things" is not disrespect

it's an obvious fact.

Saying hateful rhetoric is responsible for this shooting on the other hand is not a fact, it's speculation based on absolutely no evidance. It amounts to cashing in politically and it is disrespectful.

[uppityperson]

45. I feel hateful rhetoric encouraged Jarred to murder Christina.

You feel differently.

I feel saying Jarred was encouraged to act out his mental illness by hateful rhetoric is not disresepectful but factual.

You feel differently.

Have you read about Christina? Did you know her name? Do you know her birthdate? Ironic, isn't it?

[no limit]

53. ahh so its not facts that are important, its what you feel

You do know colbert is a parody, right?

Also, why do you keep on insisting on asking me about the victim? Does having access to Wikipedia make your argument more credible?

[uppityperson]

60. I figured since your OP was about respect for the victims that you probably had learned a little

bit about them, to show them respect beyond "a 9 year old girl". Silly me.

Also, since you asked my opinion, I gave it. Silly me again.

Not sure what your sentence "You do know colbert is a parody, right?" has to do with anything unless you are stringing together thoughts in a free-form manner.

[no limit]

62. my colbert reference was in terms of a term he coined.

That term being truthiness. It means that just as long as you feel something is true then it doesn't matter if it is or isn't. Which is the exact argument you are making.

And congratulations on being able to use Wikipedia. I might have looked that up if I wasn't confined to a bed for the last 24 hours because of a broken foot. The little time u did get online I got to read a bunch of disrespectful bullshitvaround here.

[uppityperson]

64. When did I use wikipedia? Not sure wtf you are going on about. Hoping your ft

feels better soon. Nope, haven't used wiki for days.

Only disrespectful bullshit I see here is " shut the fuck up" from you.

Fail.

[no limit]

68. you're right it was disrepectful on my part, i lost my cool

But your use of truthiness (that it doesn't matter if its true as long as you feel its true) is really inappropriate after something like this. That's just my opinion. I'm tired of writing on this phone, I'm gonna check out for now.

[uppityperson]

70. Saying hate rhetoric encourages hateful acts is "truthiness". What. ever.

Only disrespect I've seen here is yours.

[no limit]

73. thats not the part that is truthiness

The part that is truthiness is where you have no evidence hateful rhetoric played a role here. Just that you feel that it did and that's good enough for you.

[uppityperson]

75. This is an internet forum, specifically a political one.

If you don't want other people's opinions, then why do you post here?

Again, I hope your foot heals quickly and you feel better soon. Dealing with a personal injury and having a tragedy like this must suck.

[walldude]

11. Nope no evidence here.. just keep walking.

Palin put out a hit list. She wrote a tweet that said "don't retreat RELOAD" and beneath that a link to her "hit list" names., locations and crosshairs. The 20 "seats" that were "targeted". The election came and 18 out of those 20 seats were won. Giffords is number 19.

Nope nothing to see here. Although if I were #20 I'd be a little paranoid right now.

[no limit]

14. And you know for a fact this shooter did this because of a flyer sent out 10 months ago?

[walldude]

78. No he did it because he was a fucking nutcase.

The flyer and message just gave him a target. The message was "Don't retreat RELOAD" and then the link under "reload" was to the map.

Are you saying a crazy person would never take that the wrong way?

[patrice]

3. Huh? I have been assuming that what happened to her is part of the outrage. I think

the reaction would be qualitatively different if it had been ONLY Rep. Giffords who was shot. 5 other people is a LOT of other people and their ages make them no more worthy of our concern, so the question to you does occur "What about the four others?"

[RagAss]

6. Don't lecture me. The blood is on "Crosshairs" Palin's hands !

[no limit]

9. Right. That's what did this, a flyer with crosshairs sent out 10 months ago.

[lunatica]

8. Who's not showing respect?

The great majority of the posts in the last two days have been been about the victims and a lot of us have cried over this. You're obviously not reading much on DU.

[no limit]

10. Do you not see some of the replies in this thread?

[blondeatlast]

16. Point out ONE, just one, incidence of disrespect to the victims in GD--

much less in this thread.

Just ONE.

[no limit]

19. I guess cashing in on their loss by making a political point you have no basis for

isn't being disrespectful to the victims. You have a funny definition of disrepect.

[blondeatlast]

21. "...cashing in?" Is someone profiting from this--and I repeat, where's the disrespect? nt

[no limit]

23. Yes, cashing in politically. And I repeat...cashing in politically on this is disrespect

in this thread alone Sara Palin was blamed multiple times. What evidance do you have that his person was motivated by Sara Palin in any way?

[blondeatlast]

25. I never claimed that--but I'm challenging you to prove other DUers are wrong. and you haven't done

it--simply because it's a mere discussion. No one, but no one has anything to gain here.

and you're despearate--I'm not certain why?

[no limit]

31. You can call me desperate if you want to be a child. You asked me where the disrespect was

I just showed you the fucking disrespect right here in this thread. In case you haven't noticed I am asking all these DUers that said Palin was responsible what evidance they have for this. They did not give me an answer. If you don't think blaming Palin is fair without any evidance then say so. Otherwise say you think it's okay. Don't give me this crap about you not claiming that while at the same time you defend that people that do.

[blondeatlast]

33. I don't see disrespect at all. Please--since I'm a child--SPECIFICALLY point out

anything that is disrespectful. ANYTHING.

[no limit]

36. How many times do I have to repeat this shit. Cashing in politically on something like this...

is disrespectful. It amounts to sending out a mailer exploiting this incident.

You didn't answer my question for you about Palin, why not? Why are you so scared of this question. Is placing blame on her fair or not fair?

[blondeatlast]

38. WHERE IS THE DISRESPECT? Specifically? And my answer is--YES. Politicians are accountable

for their words and actions.

That's what we do at DU day after day after week after week...

WE HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

[no limit]

39. So you are saying Palin is responsible in a way for this shooting

how do you know this? Do you have access to information that we don't?

[uppityperson]

50. "Politicians are accountable for their words and actions."

Why do you keep asserting we are saying things we aren't? Odd.

[blondeatlast]

52. Accountability--Look it up. After you get through with that pic of Moose Lady, anyway. nt

[no limit]

55. in what way is palin accountable for this?

[blondeatlast]

58. She isn't. she's a lovely, perfect, innocent angel and she's been all over the m$m showing her deep,

sincere concern for Christina Taylor Green and the other victims.

We're being so unfair to this POLITICIAN.

[no limit]

63. i guess putting me on ignore is better than pointing out the evidance

Behind your claims. Whatever works for you.

[blondeatlast]

69. On ignore? Why would I do that?

Hiya! :hi:

[no limit]

74. sorry, i guess i misunderstood your reply below

About a forum feature you don't use enough .

Anyway. I'm not gonna get that evidence, am i? How about something more generic. Do you even know what this guy's motivation was?

[madinmaryland]

32. The only "cashing in" that has been going on is by those who are peddling

the vitriol, hatred, and bigotry in the media. Period.

[uppityperson]

40. hate rhetoric encourages hateful acts. That is what say.

YOU are the one who brought up The Quitter.

[no limit]

43. Do you know for a fact hate rhetoric was responsible here?

Which specific rhetoric?

[uppityperson]

47. Why are you focusing on trying to find 1 specific piece of hate rhetoric that Jarred heard or read?

Why does it matter so much to you to have proven 1 particular specific piece?

[no limit]

49. why?

you dont think having some kind of evidance when assigning blame to someone or something in a case like this would be appropriate?

[uppityperson]

57. So if I were to find Jarred had heard/read 1 thing, then you would use that specific thing as

blame?

I find the combination of prevalent hate rhetoric combined with lack of mental health treatment a bad combination that can lead to nasty happenings like this, but if you want to pursue your search for that ONE piece of hate rhetoric that led Jarred to murder Christina (you never did tell me if you knew her name, her ironic birthdate or anything about her), well, go right ahead.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wickerwoman]

30. What's disrespecful is trying to shame people into not talking about the incident.

People are trying to understand and get to the root of the incident in order to make sure nothing like it can happen again. There is nothing disrespectful about that.

Advocating gun control, or the toning down of hate rhetoric, or whatever, is not "scoring political points"... it's genuinely examining this tragedy and trying to find something good that can come out of it.

If I was the victim of gun violence, I wouldn't insist that nobody talk about it out of some misguided sense of "respect" for my memory. I would want them out there talking and thinking about it and trying to get some positive action out of what would otherwise be a senseless tragedy.

[no limit]

34. Do you think it is fair to blame Sara Palin for this without any kind of evidance?

I am not talking about saying the rhetoric should be toned down a lot, that is a perfectly valid point that we should talk about. I am talking about people placing blame on a specific indivudual or group of individuals without knowning anything about the motivations of the shooter. Do you think that is okay?

[wickerwoman]

51. I think the motivation of the shooter is somewhat beside the point.

This event took place within the context of a national climate which is lousy with hate-filled hyperbole, one example of which is Palin's "don't retreat, reload" comment and the map with crosshairs on it. That kind of hyperbole, in the future, should be unacceptable and there should be consequences for people who incite violence in that way. That is a potentially positive outcome that could result from yesterday's tragedy.

I don't think it really matters if the shooter acted because he's a Laroucher or a birther or a Randite or a racist or a Trotskyite. He is mentally ill. Looking at his specific motivations is almost certainly going to be futile. His favorite book is Peter Pan. What constructive lessons can we draw from that?

What we can do, however, is use this moment to reflect on who we really are as a nation and what kind of behavior we are going to accept. Palin et al. have been dog whistling for years, using coded language and signals to incite violence against liberals and democrats. It is irresponsible and it needs to stop. Regardless of the specifics of this particular incident.

[uppityperson]

71. exactly, thank you wickerwoman

[lunatica]

24. No one has disrespected the victims, but I see some disrespecting you

for deciding to be the morality police.

It isn't the same thing believe it or not.

[rbnyc]

13. I am thinking about it, but this is a poitical event...

...and the issues we are discussing are worth discussing. It doesn't make sense to me that something should be de-politicized if we can clearly see that real people are involved. I've seen this kind of reaction before in other situations. I never understood it. Aren't we all here because we know that politics affects real people?

[no limit]

20. Yes, this is a political event. But the accusations being made have absolutely no evidance behing em

[rbnyc]

29. There's a lot of info here, so maybe I'm reading selectively...

...but what I'm mostly seeing is discussion about consequences of violent rhetoric in our culture. Seems appropriate.

[no limit]

42. That's appropriate in general. But trying to say that Palin, or whoever, is responsible

has absolutely no basis behind it at this time. We don't know why this shooter did what he did, but plenty of people here have already jumped to their conclusions.

[rbnyc]

54. Were she truly a leader...

...she WOULD hold herself accountable.

[no limit]

56. for what?

Be specific.

[rbnyc]

67. I thought it was clear...

...for using images and rhetoric that create a climate that normalizes the use of violence, for using violent language as a political tool, for helping to create a culture of violence that goes so far as to select and publicize targets and invites you to engage.

It's more important to her to feed into our fears and capitalize on the enmity between competing ideologies in this country, than to actually try to contribute something constructive. She has done a lot to escalate our cultural divisions. She has done so because she sees how it benefits her personally. If she had any interest in being a true leader or actually making a civic contribution, she would take responsibility for this and try to undo it.

What happened yesterday is the act of one man, who may not have been directly influenced by her at all. But it IS much more complicated than that. The whole political climate in Arizona has devolved to such an extreme, and Sara Palin's influence is part of that equation. What happened, didn't happen in a vacuum.

We really are in the midst of an undeclared civil war, and its leaders should own it and help to fix it. I think that's what we're talking about and what we're asking for.

[kestrel91316]

15. Yes, we mustn't lay the blame where it lies. I mean, poor Sarah,

she is just devastated. LEAVE HER ALONE!!!!!!!!!

[no limit]

18. What evidance do you have that Palin is responsible for this?

[blondeatlast]

27. It's a DISCUSSION. You seem to be awfully defensive about this. Why? nt

[lunatica]

28. Palin is accountable for what she says and does

Everyone is. She spews hate and rage and lies and uses violent language and symbols and talks about reloading and you think she isn't accountable for it?

[blondeatlast]

37. Yes, and politicians even moreso.

But apparently, Mr. Limit feels we're picking on poor Sarah. Interesting.

[no limit]

41. What evidance do you have that this shooter was motivated by what Sara Palin sent out 10 months ago?

[lunatica]

48. I haven't accused Sarah Palin of anything

I've kept my posts and OPs on the tragedy. The only thing I've said against Palin is what's in this thread. Show me where I accuse her of anything other than using hate language. That's a mighty broad brush you have there.

[no limit]

72. you asked me if i didnt think palin was accountable for this incident

My answer to you is I don't know. You don't either. Because we don't know what motivated this guy.

[lunatica]

76. Palin is accountable for what she says and does at all times

As are all of us. I didn't say she was responsible for this act of terrorism. The shooter is. The words accountable and responsible are two separate things.

[no limit]

77. so why bring her up right now? yes, all politicians ae accountable for their words

What does that have to do with this?

There are people here trying to get a petition trhough that says palin needs to be arrested for this. I'm not saying this is you specifically.

[LWolf]

44. This is a politically motivated tragedy.

It's hard to separate the politics.

There is no disrespect in recognizing that.

[ScreamingMeemie]

46. Happy to recommend.

Sorry it did not do any good.

[blondeatlast]

59. Oh, it's done some good, alright; it's reminded me of a nice DU feature I don't make enough use of.

[ScreamingMeemie]

65. I think the poster has the right intent.

I think this is a bad day for me to be in DU. Have a good day if you can still see me.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.