The man is mentally unstable, that's a fact.

[MadHound]

And frankly, while incendiary rhetoric from the right did inform Loughner's world view, that rhetoric was not what cause him to murder. What caused him to open fire was his own mental illness, that's it. Sure, he draped that mental illness in RW propaganda, but the fact of the matter is that you could strip away that rhetoric and Loughner would still have opened fire on somebody, somewhere. Hell, the Son of Sam killer got his "command to kill" from a neighbor's dog, Manson found his inspiration from the Beatles. If we didn't have Fox News and RW talk radio, the simple fact of the matter is that Loughner would have been inspired by some other trigger. That is how mental illness works.

Trying to pin this on the right or the left based on Loughner's reading list, or his crazed ramblings is an exercise in futility. The only thing that you can pin this murder on is the simple, stark fact is that this man suffered from mental illness, and never received help. That's it, period.

[jtown1123]

1. Yes, he is probablymentally ill, but we can't brush off his actions as anything less than terrorism

His killing was politically motivated. He planned an assassination. Would a sane person do this? Probably not. But I think we do ourselves a lot of harm by ignoring the political underpinnings of his actions.

[MadHound]

4. Mental illness is now political terrorism?

He was mentally ill, period.

[jtown1123]

73. This was an assasination. He shot at many others. Probably would have killed more

if those brave men and women did not take away his ammo and tackle him to the ground. If a muslim person did this (no matter how deranged) this would be terrorism plain and simple. So white people somehow get a pass on this?

[EmeraldCityGrl]

98. Sheriff Dupnik commented when he was a beat cop

back in the 60's, these people were in mental institutions, then things changed and now
they're on the street. That was a direct reference to Reagan's policy of closing the mental
health infrastructure of this country and placing these people on the street with no services.

So many of the societal problems we have today go back to that SOB.

[Cetacea]

2. Un rec.

http://www.stopstigma.samhsa.gov/topic/facts.aspx

Funny how no one ever suggests people like this may have been drinking. The mentally ill or not any more likely than you to kill someone. All populations are more likely when under the influence of alcohol. And now we are being told he was a "pot smoker".

[MadHound]

7. Yet there is no evidence that alcohol or pot were in play here

The only thing that was in play here was his mental illness. I'm not trying to stigmatize the mentally ill, but it is plain that, in this instance, this man's mental illness did push him towards violence.

[Cetacea]

9. 'Mental illness pushed him toward violence"

Mental illness does not cause violence any more than it's absence does.

[MadHound]

12. Mental illness does not cause violence?

Really? There are thousands who have been acquitted of murder due to mental illness that belie your claim.

[Cetacea]

14. Read the studies. I don't blame you for falling for the stigma.

[MadHound]

17. I've read several studies,

And again, the fact remains that mental illness has, and does cause people to become violent.

[Cetacea]

22. But no more than the general population

Unless alcohol or drugs are introduced into the equation.


http://www.stopstigma.samhsa.gov/topic/facts.aspx


* "Research has shown that the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)."
* ". . . he absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is still very small and . . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)."

People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). Researchers at North Carolina State University and Duke University found that people with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al., 1999).

[MadHound]

28. Yes, this man is part of a relatively small group,

Namely the number of mentally ill people who have killed others. But the fact remains that he is mentally ill, and that illness caused him to kill.

[TBF]

114. We don't know that - how can you possibly say that without examining him? nt

[IScreamSundays]

63. As well as thousands

of mentally ill inmates in prisons across the country that have committed violent crimes and murders.

[Cetacea]

74. That some had good attorneys doesn't change the facts.

The mentally ill are no more violent than the non-mentally ill. Yes, a paranoid schizophrenic might get violent from a wrongly perceived threat but there is no evidence of that in this person.
You do a great disservice to the art of propaganda and the power of the electronic media to influence behavior in the highly impressionable by insisting that his possible mental illness caused him to become violent.

[MadHound]

80. Some had good attorneys?

Talk about doing a disservice to the mentally ill, you are essentially saying that those who were diagnosed as mentally ill, who were found by a court of law to be mentally ill, all that counts for naught because they "had good attorneys".

Physician, heal thyself, for you are in more need than I.

[Cetacea]

89. I'm not the one insisting that mental illness causes violence.

And if our justice system discriminates as well that is not my fault. I have no doubt that many of the violent people whose attorneys tried to get them excused for their criminal acts did not suffer from mental illness. They, not I, do a great disservice to the mentally ill by perpetuating the myth that mental illness causes violence any more than it's absence does.

[Cetacea]

103. Furthermore, there is no need to question one another's concern

for the mentally ill. I commented on propaganda and the power of the electronic media, not on your commitment to the mentally ill, which you should be commended for.

[MadHound]

105. Well then, why in the hell are you questioning mine?

Because that is all that your replies have been about, questioning me about my concern for the mentally ill. If you can do that to me, then I can damn well do it to you. Don't like that tactic, then don't be the one who uses it to begin with.

[Cetacea]

115. Wow. So much for civility.

I think that you are projecting. And you are a discriminating fraud.

[MadHound]

118. LOL, don't like being called out on your debating tactic,

Oh well.

[Cetacea]

120. The remains: there are some violent criminals who also have mental illness.

And mental illness does not cause violence any more than the lack of it does. And there is no evidence that the man who just killed a nine year old girl is mentally ill.


Not much to debate here actually. It's just fun to argue with you.

Good day and good luck!!

[MadHound]

122. No evidence that Loughner is mentally ill?

Either you are ignorant of what goes on in this world, or deliberately blind. I imagine that Pima Community College does not kick a student out of school, with the stipulation that they can't return until a psychiatrist OK's that they are no danger to others, without that student being observed and interviewed by a licensed, qualified psychiatrist or psychologist. This is the standard operating procedure of universities and colleges around the country.

But if you don't accept that, well you can always go over to Loughner's YouTube Channel and judge for yourself. Or listen to his friends and acquaintances, who also thought he was mentally unstable. Or. . .

[joeunderdog]

97. You are misinformed. MI does not equal Criminal Responsibility

which is the standard by which one may be found Guilty of a crime. If there is evidence that someone is aware that what they are doing is wrong (i.e.: apologizing beforehand on your Facebook page, in a note or whatever) then you are responsible for your actions and will face legal consequences. If you are mentally unstable, it does not make you not Criminally Responsible. It may, but not if you are aware of the consequences and right/wrong of your behavior.

In this case, it was the voices of the RW and not the words of Jesus in his head that told him to do it. You appear to be confusing the fact that absent EITHER this man's mental health problems or his RW rage, he may not have committed this crime with the fact that his mental illness caused him to do it. The chicken and the egg do not matter here. In every crime there are countless factors that, if different, may have led to a better outcome. What matters is that he knew it was wrong.

Mental illness does not cause violence, nor does mental illness in conjunction with radical political beliefs in most cases. In this country, to a large degree, you have the right to be wrong, whether you refuse your psychiatric medication or listen to Glen Beck. But if you knowingly break the law, those factors are merely explanations and not justifications.

[MadHound]

106. Mental illness does not cause violence?

You are sadly, sadly misinformed. Mental illness does cause violence, and if you don't believe me (and trust me, I have first hand knowledge of this), then check with any psychologist or psychiatrist out there.

[joeunderdog]

109. I've worked with forensically involved MI people for 25 years.

I also work with psychiatrists, psychologists, sex offenders and MI people who have murdered and/or assaulted. No need to check with anyone.

Stop your crusade. You are wrong.

[MadHound]

111. No disrespect to you, but most of the people who are forensic psychiatrist or psychologists

Are in it to get the conviction, not to treat the person.

And put you're swinging dick away, you're not the only person around who has had long term experience working with the mentally ill.

[Jamastiene]

99. 'Mental illness' not an explanation for violence

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41002034/ns/slatecom/

[GreenPartyVoter]

104. I think that's a bit broad. Some forms of mental illness can leave a person more open

to violence and others don't. In my own case of dealing with bipolar I've definitely been alarmed (after the fact) by the rages that have overtaken me. I can easily see how someone whose illness is even worse off could do worse than I have.

But overall I agree with you. It's not good to immediately assume that mental illness played a role in anything until there is evidence supporting that theory.

[Common Sense Party]

91. There's no evidence that right wing rhetoric was at play here, either.

Doesn't stop some people from speculating and wishful thinking.

[texshelters]

113. The shooting of someone who was targeted by the right and Palin

seems like evidence to me. However, it is not a causal link, just an encouraging suggestion from the right that violence is the answer.

If it wasn't a right-wing suggestion, why did he target Giffords? Certainly, she could be a target for he lives in District 8 and perhaps he hates powerful women. But that seems to coincidental after the targeting of Gifford's office by tea party members and Palin's Bullseye map on Gifford's district.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the connection.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Common Sense Party]

133. What evidence is there that the nutcase is rightwing at all?

Or that he pays attention to Palin?

Until there is some evidence, I'd say you're jumping to hasty conclusions.

[pintobean]

8. rec

[Seedersandleechers]

3. Mentally ill people can have moments of clarity.

He is a political terrorist.

[NotThisTime]

5. Yes they can and yes he is....

[MadHound]

10. Where is the evidence that he had "moments of clarity".

From the reports of his professors, friends and acquaintances, Loughner was becoming less and less in control at a rapid pace.

He is not a political terrorist, he is a mentally unstable man who snapped.

[yodermon]

25. The two are not mutually exclusive. Geez.

Highly probably, he has some sort of mental illness, but he was clearly affected by the "violence-against-liberals" memes saturating the media.

We'll probably never know the real truth behind this guy, because when he comes to trial, the arguments will between 1 side claiming total insanity, and another claiming he's a political terrorist, with psychologists making both cases.

He can be both, but that doesn't play well in the media because it requires careful, nuanced evaluation.

[MadHound]

31. You are missing the point I'm making,

If you take away the "violence against liberals" meme saturating the media, it would have been something else that would have set him off, and the target would have been changed. You take away the political rhetoric without taking away the mental illness, then the target would have been different, not gone.

[EstimatedProphet]

57. You don't know that.

And it is patently ridiculous to claim that continual demonizing a group of people (and specific people) as being treasonous monsters and even less than human - such as the rigtwing has been doing consistently for years - will not lead someone mentally unstable to act on the message.

[MadHound]

70. No, I don't "know" that,

I just have the overwhelming evidence of other mentally ill people who have committed violence. Anything can, and does set them off, dogs, music, their unrequited love, etc. etc.

What do you have that proves this killing was due to politics, not mental illness?

Oh, yeah, random internet speculation.

[Cetacea]

11. So can people without it.

Even Palin has moments of clarity.

[Jamastiene]

100. Oh really?

So, mentally ill people spend the rest of the day with no clarity?

These blanket statements about mental illness are nothing more than ignorant broadbrush generalizations.

[bemildred]

6. The man is a wannabe assassin, that's a fact too.

Lots of people have "mental" issues, most of them don't start shooting for political reasons. It's not the same as obsessing about impressing Jody Foster, now is it? This guy is a right-wing unabomber.

[MadHound]

13. Do you have an evidence that he wanted to be an assassin?

And yes, it is the same as obsessing about Jody Foster. The key word is obsessing. This is a mentally ill man whose trigger was politics instead of Foster.

[bemildred]

18. I thought the recently dead would serve that purpose?

The reported evidence from his safe?

But I have a feeling that nothing is going to be good enough for you, he's nuts, and the wingnut drivel he was soaking in is "irrelevant", right?

[MadHound]

24. So you admit he is mentally ill?

You're halfway there then. The fact is, while politics served as his trigger, it could have easily been something else, his rejection from college, a dog, music, what have you.

It isn't the trigger that is to blame, but the mental illness. If he didn't kill Gifford, it could have easily been his professor that he stalked. Is a politician's life now worth more than a professor's?

He wasn't soaking in wingnut drivel, he was, so to speak, soaking in mental illness.

[bemildred]

29. I admit he's not rational, poorly socialized, whether he is "ill" or not I cannot presently say.

I've known plenty of people walking around and living their life saying stuff just as stupid as his obsessions, and murder is not itself an indication of mental illness, is it? He seems self-possessed enough to know his rights and assert them, in fact he shows excellent self-control.

[MadHound]

33. Looking at his You Tube ramblings,

Looking at his actions, and applying my own experience with people who are mentally ill, yes, I can safely say that he is mentally ill.

[bemildred]

36. I admit he is like McVeigh.

[MadHound]

41. Except McVeigh wasn't found to be mentally ill

On the other hand, I won't be surprised if Loughner is found to be incompetent due to mental illness.

[bemildred]

44. That was my point.

I know you want this guy to be "mentally ill" too, but I will be most surprised if that happens.

[MadHound]

47. I don't "want" anything,

The fact of the matter is that Loughner is mentally ill, not just my opinion, but the opinion of experts in at the college he attended and the Army he tried to enter.

[bemildred]

51. Yes, of course not, you are Mr Objective unlike anyone that disagrees with you. nt

[MadHound]

53. Well, at least I'm not jumping on the political assasin bandwagon with no evidence

But hey, don't be surprised when this guy gets off due to mental illness. Perhaps then he will get the help he needs.

[bemildred]

60. No indeed, you are not doing that. nt

[bemildred]

21. Here:

Special Agent Tony M. Taylor Jr. of the F.B.I. said in an affidavit that an envelope found in a safe in the home bore these handwritten words: “I planned ahead,” “My assassination” and “Giffords.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/us/11giffords.html

[MadHound]

26. And if it we never had Faux, hate radio and the like,

Then he would have been planning to kill his professor, or some such other person.

Again, it isn't the politics that caused this killing, it is the fact that Loughner was mentally ill. Subtract the mental illness, and there would have been no killing. Subtract the RW rhetoric, then all that would have happened is the target of Loughner's anger would have changed.

[bemildred]

30. I have a feeling your mind is made up here. nt

[MadHound]

35. Yes, it is, as is yours apparently. n/t

[bemildred]

38. Have a nice day!

:hi:

[jtown1123]

75. Yes. He wrote down on a piece of paper that he planned this assassination. Use that exact word.

[bemildred]

82. I already pointed that out, it did not penetrate. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. Nothing wannabe about it...he is an assassin

[bemildred]

40. Well, yeah, but so far the intended target is still alive.

So that's why he is charged with attempted assassination, but I don't really want to fight about nomenclature.

[MadHound]

42. No, he is a mentally ill man whose illness pushed him towards violence.

A big difference.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Your argument has merit in terms of culpability, but he has killed 6 people

with still others clinging to life.

I am of the "guilty but mentally ill" school of thought. It establishes who did it and culpability as distinct items.

[Gaedel]

85. A truly planned assassination

Professor:

If it really was a planned assassination, the guy would have shot the congresswoman and made tracks.

This is more like terrorism where he continued to shoot up the whole crowd like in the Va Tech shootings.

He was going down and was going to take as many with him as possible.

[bemildred]

87. You are confusing "planned" with "professional", not the same thing.

It is clear he planned it, and clear that he was an enraged, irrational amateur. He also seems to have known his way around guns.

[One_Life_To_Give]

15. A Public mental health system, might have caught it

Had he been accepted into the Army they might have caught it as well.

Unfortunately we live with a system and culture that makes getting mental health delivered to those in need difficult.
Both the Stigma and the Cost affect how successful our society is at helping people and averting potential tragedies.
Perhaps the greatest tragedy is how many people knew he had mental issues. And still he never received the help that he so desperately needed.

[MadHound]

16. You are correct, that is where the real failure lies,

In the fact that our health care system simply doesn't help people with mental illnesses.

[Gaedel]

86. Fort Hood shooter

The major had fully paid medical services available and worked around mental health professionals on a daily basis and never got treated.

No one at the college, police force, or army ever tried to refer Loughner, just moved him along.

His parents never got him help (and they live in an upper middle class area).

[woo me with science]

19. Thank you for a moment of clarity.

And it is extremely concerning to me that what happened in Arizona will now be used to further limit speech and freedoms.

In fact, your post reminds me to kick grasswire's (I think) excellent post from yesterday about how this tragedy will be a boon for authoritarians.

Palin's chart was stupid, as would be expected from a stupid person, but it did not cause this shooting.

[MadHound]

20. That's what I fear as well,

It seems that over the past twenty years, especially since 9/11, every act like this brings about an authoritarian reaction, and more of our civil liberties go down the rat hole.

[woo me with science]

23. [phone] nt

[cali]

27. yep. You nailed it. rec.

[ClassWarrior]

32. We've said all along that the RW's rhetoric might incite someone who's violent and unstable. So...

...what's your point?

NGU.

[MadHound]

37. Any sort of rhetoric could have set him off,

It isn't the politics that made this man kill, but rather his mental illness. That's my point.

[ClassWarrior]

54. So it's all acceptable, since "anything" could have set him off?

:eyes:

NGU.

[MadHound]

59. I'm not saying it's acceptable,

I find that our piss poor mental health care system is much more culpable than any sort of political rhetoric however.

Take away the political rhetoric, and Loughner's mental illness would have simply driven him to another target. But, it you take away the mental illness, Loughner's politics, he simply would not have killed.

That's the point I'm making, the one that you are either unable, or unwilling, to get.

[ClassWarrior]

65. Of course you're not.

:eyes:

NGU.

[yodermon]

39. "he draped that mental illness in RW propaganda"

that's the point.

If the media was saturated with left-wing memes about violence against right wingers, maybe he would have attacked a right-winger.

he didn't, because there are no such memes.

Does this mean there is enough evidence to Palin, Limbaugh, et. al.? Well probably not. But it is a perfectly valid argument in the court of public opinion.

"The only thing that you can pin this murder on is the simple, stark fact is that this man suffered from mental illness, and never received help. That's it, period. "

Nope, that's not "it". Those who promote violent imagery need to be called out on it. Their degree of guilt doesn't rise to the level of legal culpability but they need to be roundly criticized, ostracized, lambasted, and humiliated, in public, out loud, to the point that Paypal will not allow donations to them, for example. :think:

[MadHound]

43. No, the point is that anything could have set him off, political or non-political

Frankly, I'm surprised that he didn't go after his professor, given the relationship that they had.

It isn't the political rhetoric that made him kill, it was the mental illness.

[MadHound]

46. So we should wipe out the Declaration of Independence?

It promoted revolution and violence, as did many of the essays of our founding fathers. After all, who was the one who made that statement about watering the tree of liberty? Not to mention that a lot of writing, speech, and culture in general promotes violent imagery. You are willing to forego all of that in the vain pursuit of a safe society? Not only would we be culturally poorer, but we wouldn't eliminate senseless violence because, as I've stated time and again, this incident was caused not by political rhetoric, but rather by this man's mental illness.

[Zax2me]

45. And that is the story in a nutshell.

No pun intended.
K&R&R

[GSLevel9]

48. Thats a fact

Like it or not... This guy is not the bagger with a sign, he's not the guy with a Bush/Cheney bumper sticker. His views can't be assigned to ANY political group.

[spanone]

50. and that's the only fact we have. we have heard nothing from him.

we will learn.

[immoderate]

52. And the right wingers played him like a glockenspeil.

There is a blanket permission to "kill liberals" out there. Not so for conservatives. Sure Loughner is demented -- valuable to the right wing.

--imm

[MadHound]

56. So was Hinckley played like a glockenspeil by the left?

After all, he went after Reagan:shrug:

No, we recognized him as being mentally unstable. Stop trying to filter everything through the prism of politics.

[ClassWarrior]

58. You tell me. Did "the left" precede Hinckley's attempt with incendiary rhetoric against RWers?

NGU.

[MadHound]

64. Actually yes,

There was heated rhetoric on the left, dating since the last sixties. I read several leftist political polemics during the late seventies, early eighties and on back. The ascension of Reagan to the presidency infuriated many on the left, and yes, the rhetoric was hot, rhetoric that was written, sung and otherwise distributed far and wide.

[ClassWarrior]

67. How about some links to mass calls for assassination from lefties? Oh, that's right...

...there was no internet at the time.

:eyes:

NGU.

[MadHound]

72. No, but there are still recordings and written records,

I suggest that you go to your local library and educate yourself.

[ClassWarrior]

Point me in the right direction. Cite me some sources. And not just one or two.

I didn't think so.

:eyes:

NGU.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[immoderate]

125. I have to acknowledge it was not conscious.

The tea party types are obviously played. The violence is "unintended consequences." But these are politicians, not street performers pushing this.

And most of the left was scrupulously non-violent. Peace demonstrations.

--imm

[MadHound]

128. Most of the right, most people are scrupulously non-violent

But even if you took away all the violent rhetoric in the world, left, right, center, this man would have still found something of some sort to obsess on to the point of violence. It isn't the rhetoric that was the problem in this case, but rather the man's mental illness.

[immoderate]

129. There's still a difference.

They tolerate violence, encourage it. We don't. Mostly.

--imm

[MadHound]

130. Really?

Apparently you're not up on your history of the left. Yes, now the left is non-violent, however that was not the case forty years ago, or seventy years ago, or eighty years ago, or one hundred years ago, etc. etc.

These things run in cycles.

[kestrel91316]

55. Yes, he is mentally ill. But there is absolutely no denying that the voices of

hatred he heard coming from his TV and radio were NOT delusions. They are very real, and have a very real influence on many people.

[MadHound]

66. But again, any "voices" could have set him off

Take away the RW rhetoric, and Loughner would have simply changed his target. Take away the man's mental illness though, and he wouldn't have killed at all.

[kestrel91316]

79. We don't know that. IMHO the extremely vitriolic hate speech is unique to the RW.

And uniquely influential.

[MadHound]

81. Apparently you weren't around during the late sixties, early seventies, or early eighties

The left had the same level of vitriolic hate speech on the left as we're now seeing on the right.

[kwolf68]

61. Agreed

The fact he killed a 9 year old in cold blood tells me more was working in his mind that just wanting to kill a Dem politician.

Connections between the Tea Party and this guy will be futile at best, but we can still use this rampage as argument that Conservatives can no longer talk openly about killing their political opponents.

[Jamastiene]

62. Link?

I've seen it repeated over and over again that it is a "fact" that he has mental illness. Yet, not one person has provided a link with the diagnosis from his mental health provider.

How are you so sure it is a fact? Do you not believe that people who are not mentally ill can be killers? Mental illness is not a requirement to be a murderer.

The stigma continues for the mentally ill.

[Cetacea]

68. Nailed it.

As far as I know, the only diagnosis that would give him a propensity for violence would be that of "paranoid schizophrenic", and I've seen no such diagnosis even proposed.

This is the type of stigma many people in the mental health industry are becoming increasingly more outspoken about. In 95 percent of the cases, violent criminals are just that.

[MadHound]

69. Have you checked out the man's YouTube channel?

Not to mention that at the college he attended, and was kicked out of, if he wanted to go back to that college, he would have had to gotten psychiatric help and have the note of a psychiatrist that he was no longer a danger to others. Colleges don't make that kind of diagnosis, and requirement, unless they've got a professional psychiatrist on board and diagnosing.

As far as stigmatizing the mentally ill goes, no, I'm not doing that. But you are using that argument in a vain effort at shutting down this discussion. No dice, thanks for playing.

[ClassWarrior]

71. Proof?

Of course not.

:eyes:

NGU.

[MadHound]

76. Have you been to college?

Do you know what goes in to kicking out a student for perceived mental problems?

No, you're just another person who has to much invested in their own erroneous preconceived notions.

[ClassWarrior]

77. Trying to pin this on mental illness based on Loughner's YouTube page, or rumors about...

...his college career is an exercise in futility. The only thing that you can pin this murder on is the simple, stark fact that this man suffered from mental illness in an environment of violent, incendiary rhetoric. That's it, period.

(Sound familiar?)

NGU.

[MadHound]

83. Proof? PROOF?

You have none. Meanwhile there are documents regarding this man's mental illness residing in the files of both the US Army and Pima Community College.

What do you have? Oh, yeah, rampant internet speculation. Whatever.

[ClassWarrior]

84. Let's see 'em.

NGU.

[Jamastiene]

96. Uhm, the army rejected him because he failed a drug test.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/113206109.html

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/918984--army-rejected-shooting-suspect-over-failed-drug-test

http://www.ketknbc.com/news/military-alleged-giffords-gunman-failed-drug-test

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/#

And
102 more sources here:
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=jared+loughner+failed+drug+test+army&ei=UTF-8

Your turn. Proof he was ever diagnosed mentally ill? Or proof that mental illness caused him to shoot a bunch of people?

[Jamastiene]

101. I saw his YouTube channel.

What credible psychiatrist would make a diagnosis based on YouTube videos?

As far as stigmatizing the mentally ill goes, you are doing exactly that by repeatedly saying that mental illness causes violence despite being informed time and again that you are wrong. You have been provided with evidence to the contrary several times in this thread, yet you continue to repeat your baseless claims.

[fatbuckel]

88. So is it OK to waltz into a asylum and convince all that pencils are fun to stab fellow patients?

NO. Why? Because we KNOW BETTER. These rightwingerloons know that there are unstable people outside. They have a responsibility. I mean, If South Park needs a disclaimer before each show, why doesn`t beck? Or tell me why we "watch what we say" around small children? Are they "going to just grow up evil" anyway? Being a responsible adult in a society requires a little forethought and intelligence.

[progressoid]

90. "If South Park needs a disclaimer before each show, why doesn`t beck?"

I like that idea!

[randr]

92. No more unstable than Ron Paul

And it is yet to be proven if he actually has a mental illness.

[ScreamingMeemie]

93. Who? Rush?

I agree.

[blm]

94. GOP policies assure the mentally ill are WITHOUT proper healthcare and on the streets WITH guns.

So...add the overthetop, incendiary rhetoric against Democrats and liberals, and......YEAH...they are a BIG part of it.

[Tsiyu]

95. If the guy is coherent enough to remain silent

and to not cooperate with law enforcement, he will have a hard time claiming mental incompetence


YOU are speculating grossly about his mental capacity.

May people in fits of rage or under the influence write garbled, crazy stuff.

this does not make them mentally ill.


SECONDLY, you've already said "if it weren't for the hate, the target wouldn't have been Giffords."

Okay, then. Thank you.

Making death threats, gunsights, violent imagery "acceptable" when discussing "solutions" to political issues is DANGEROUS and IRRESPONSIBLE and directly led to this attempt on a Congresswoman's life AND the deaths of six others.

When the media and politicians create an atmosphere rife with violent imagery, hateful speech and characterizations of their political opponents as "enemies, should be run out of town, should be lynched, are destroying America, require second amendment remedies, etc. " they DIRECTLY encourage and invite violence as a solution.

The rhetoric workds because it's designed to work.

It's not a game or a joke.

You can claim the hate speech coming from teabaggers and Repukes is not to blame. Your right to your opinion.

But I think NOT holding them accountable is THE MOST IRRESPONSIBLE THING anyone can do right now.

It has to stop, whether you care or not.

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

126. bravo.. what Tsiyu said...

Even if the RW hate speech is subliminal (Beck and Palin's book on every newstand as best sellers, and that kind of constant bombardmend of everyday citizens with speech that would be banned in Europe or Canada), can indeed infect the mind of a mentally ill person.

nobody's made the case that Jared was not influnced by RW politics and he is listed by Pima County as voting republican.

[Catherina]

102. Recommended with great sadness. Fearful at how easily people will be played. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

107. Thank you. I think we all understand that MOST mentally ill persons, including schizophrenics are

much, MUCH more likely to be victims of violence than to perpetrate violence. The same can be said for almost any population. Clearly there are exceptions in any population and clearly this guy was one of them.

This of course doesn't change the fact that right-wing political vitriol is dangerously out of hand and totally irresponsible and the time for a national conversation about it is LONG overdue.

[arthritisR_US]

108. this approach it too simplistic, it lends itself to the disavowing of responsibility. n/t

[MadHound]

110. How so?

The man is mentally ill. He may or may not be found not guilty because of being mentally ill, but the fact of the matter is that he is mentally ill. Take away the RW rhetoric(and some of the rhetoric he imbibed was left wing as well), and he would have simply found something else to fixate on to the point of violence.

[texshelters]

112. The rhetoric on the right fed into his Paranoid Personality Disorder

and his Borderline personality. Palin and Beck's own paranoia that the world is out to get them, especially Beck and Limbaugh's irrational anger confirm this man's paranoia. http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/personality_disorders/hic_paranoid_personality_disorder.aspx

Was it the cause? Well, let's let the experts break down all the causes in the shooters actions, but the paranoids on the right confirm and fuel this anger in many mentally unstable people.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[MadHound]

116. I don't doubt that,

But if he didn't imbibe the RW rhetoric, it would have simply been something else that set him off. The Son of Sam was set off by his neighbor's dog, Charles Manson by the Beatles, on and on it goes. Yes, his target might have been different, might have been a professor, or fellow students, but really now, would those deaths been any less tragic than what happened Saturday? I think not.

[affrayer]

117. Try this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x160132

Clearly there is more to the relationship between moron politicians and wacko jobs then you think.

[MadHound]

121. So let's say we didn't have RW rhetoric in the air,

Let's say there was no Palin, no Beck, Limbaugh, et. al.

This man would have still found some perceived outrage to obsess over, and would have still killed. It isn't the RW rhetoric that made him pull the trigger, it is the mental illness that he suffers from.

[affrayer]

131. And The Opposite Is Also A Possibility

This man would have still found some perceived outrage to obsess over...

It is a possibility just as having one's obsessions stroked by a popular political movement might magnify them.

Let me put it to you this way. If you leave your gun out where a child can play with it are you negligent? But isn't it true that some children would leave the gun alone while other children would find the gun no matter how well you hid it?

The issue is whether the teabaggers and the republicans contributed to this tragedy and the answer is an unqualified yes...

If you don't believe me just review the violence promoting rhetoric the teabaggers and republicans pumped into the mainstream consciousness. Can that be any less negligent then someone who leaves a loaded gun where a child can play with it?

[texshelters]

119. After reading the comments, I want to add that mental illness

usually does NOT lead to violence, but paranoid and anti-social personalities tend toward violence. There is not a direct link between mental illness and violence.

MI CAN absolutely be a cause of violence. Read the DSM IV to see which illnesses can lead toward violence. But many forms of dementia and depression don't cause violence or lead to violent tendencies.

We are much more complicated than "MI causes violence" or "MI doesn't cause violence". Both are inaccurate statements.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Fire Walk With Me]

123. Please don't lump the mentally ill in with the right wingers/teabaggers.

It's not fair to the mentally ill.

[MadHound]

124. I'm not,

But thanks for misreading my post.

[Fire Walk With Me]

127. Okay, thanks, sorry about that.

[HuckleB]

132. Such acts do not typically happen in a vacuum.

DUers have feared this type of act by this type of individual for the past few years. The incendiary rhetoric cannot be excused.