The disturbed can get their motiviation or instructions from any source.

[Kaleva]

Charles Manson found hidden messages in the music of the Beatles. Some talk directly to God. The skinheads and neo-Nazis immerse themselves in legal and easily available Nazi literature.

While most of us wouldn't want to live in a society where freedom of speech is very narrowly defined, we can do something about the disturbed and/or very radical having easy access to guns. We also can do more to provide mental health services to those who need it as the Tuscon shooter clearly did.

Jared Loughner had supposedly made death threats in the past which were reported to the police. He was unfit to join the Army. People who knew him considered him to be "different". He had confronted Congresswoman Gifford some three years ago with an odd question. The warning signs were all there. But he passed a background check and armed himself.

Most of the threads here at DU, IMHO, distract from the main problem which is the disturbed being able to walk into a gun shop, pass a basic background check, buy guns & ammo, and then go out and murder.

[RainDog]

1. TOTALLY agree n/t

[LisaL]

2. Exactly.

[notesdev]

3. Which goes right back to the Sheriff who started pointing fingers

He's the one who was responsible to act on the death threats, and he swept it under the rug. Had he acted, NCIS wouldn't have cleared the murderer for purchase.

So the question is, why didn't the Sheriff act on multiple death threats made by an individual?

[LisaL]

5. I am not aware of this.

Do you have a link?

[notesdev]

15. here

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0824904120110109

[hlthe2b]

8. You are making assertions that I do not know and do not believe

to be true...


The sheriff was asked about previous interactions with the legal system--arrests, charges, convictions. He did imply there had been an investigation, but he denied that it had been within his jurisdiction and thus had not been involved.

Fascinating that you would call out the Sheriff, though. I'd surely like to see something other than a baseless assertion or a RW talking point to support that accusation.

[notesdev]

13. Reuters reported on it

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0824904120110109

"Dupnik said there had been earlier contact between Loughner and law enforcement after he had made death threats, although they had not been against Giffords. He said the authorities believe he may not have been working alone."

[hlthe2b]

16. As I said, the Sheriff had alluded to an encounter involving other

Law Enforcement, not his own sheriff's department. Your denunciation of this particular sheriff, based on what you assert to be death threats not followed up appropriately by that sheriff, thus appears to be inappropriate.

[notesdev]

26. The plot thickens...

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/12/20110112gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting-pima-county-wont-release-jared-loughner-records.html

Now why would the Sheriff refuse to release public documents as required by law?

[hlthe2b]

4. I agree and disagree...

Yo have clearly delineated the points Lawrence O'Donnell was just making on his show with the respect to uncontrolled access to guns and large capacity clips, with which I totally agree. You also make the point about our inadequate response to mental health issues, with which I also agree totally.

However, I agree with Tucson's Sheriff of 31 years that the political discourse, the hate language with its attendant violent imagery IS an issue--whether it was THE issue in THIS case or not. To ignore this would be turn a blind eye and thus allow further escalation; undoubtedly more violence, whether they be bombed campaign headquarters, shot up windows, slashed tires, a woman of the opposing side kicked in the head at a campaign event, or gun incidents will occur if we do not attempt to tamp it down now. We are two decades far too late, IMO, with respect to Faux and hate radio... But better now than never.

[LisaL]

7. Well if one is going to blame a political discourse as influencing

this particular guy, I'd like to see at least some evidence that it in fact is the case.
So far as all I see is that the guy was obsessed with grammar.

[hlthe2b]

12. The problem goes beyond this one man, this one incident...

while there has been obvious speculation, I do think most have been dealing with the broader issues on a generic level, being quite quick to denounce assumptions that he was a REPUG or teapartier or that, the political discourse had influenced his actions. Discussion can and should be broader than this incident, since this is not the only violent episode that has emerged in the past two years.

[toddaa]

6. I get mine from Hello Kitty

The urge to kill is overwhelming, when I see that logo.

[Rex]

9. That is a very big problem and so is hate radio/TVEE using unbalanced

people to carry out acts of violence they promote on the public airwaves. If people cannot see the magnitude of THAT problem, then we are screwed six ways over.

[theoldman]

14. You are right and I am afraid we are screwed.

[hlthe2b]

18. That some seem unable to see the problem even larger than

this one incident, as multi-factorial and complex in its causes, but rather seem to want to indulge in finger-pointing and self-flagellation after a day of RW spin suggesting moral equivalence between conservatives and liberals is just unfathomable to me. Refocusing the main issue relative to this event to gun access and mental health issues is fine. But, to now all but apologize for suggesting the hateful rhetoric that is overwhelmingly occuring on the "RIGHT" is not a problem just makes me aghast. What the hell?

[RKP5637]

19. I agree so much, a root cause is this endless stream of hate radio/TVEE we now

have.

[theoldman]

10. Anyone who watched the town hall meetings last summer understands hate rhetoric.

Nutty people get all worked up by listening to messages of hate in political meetings. Sometimes it even comes from a church or TV evangelists.

[kestrel91316]

11. Loughner may be crazy as all get-out, but that doesn't mean he WASN'T influenced

in large part or entirely by the non-stop anti-liberal hate speech plastered all over the airwaves and print media. He heard voices, but they were REAL.

[LisaL]

17. He first met Rep. Giffords in 2007.

And didn't like the way she answered his question. I've seen no evidence that he was influenced by any political rhetoric. My question is, why someone who was suspended from college unless he got a mental health evaluation can go into a gun store and buy a gun, no problems? This is the same old story over and over again-someone disturbed buys a gun and the rest is history.

[Broderick]

27. He was increasingly paranoid

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41014125/ns/us_news-crime_a... /



'Friends of Jared Loughner told The New York Times that his behavior had become increasingly erratic over the past year. He feared that two of his closest friends were planning to kill him, one of those friends told the Times on Tuesday.
“He did not have many friends,” Zane Gutierrez, 21, told the newspaper. “We stopped talking to him in March of 2010. He started getting weird.”
He said Loughner would call at 2 a.m. and ask, “Are you hanging out in front of the house, stalking me?”
“He thought we were plotting to kill him or steal his car or something,” Gutierrez said. “It got worse over time.”'

[Kaleva]

20. The first part appears to be true but the second is conjecture

Appears to be true:

"Loughner may be crazy as all get-out,"


Conjecture at this time:

"but that doesn't mean he WASN'T influenced in large part or entirely by the non-stop anti-liberal hate speech plastered all over the airwaves and print media."

A sane person can read or listen to wildly inflammatory writings and speeches and know that none of it justifies committing cold blooded murder. If a person cannot understand that, then they have no business being able to purchase and own a gun.

[begin_within]

21. Yes, but the public airwaves are saturated with hate rhetoric, and the disturbed don't have to

go and "get" their motivation from it, because it is automatically fed to them on a daily basis by the RW noise machine.

[Kaleva]

22. Then the disturbed ought to get help.

The only news I get about Sarah Palin is right here at DU. I haven't listened to Rush Limbaugh in many years. If I watch the news, it's either CNN or MSNBC. Can't tell you when was the last time I watched Fox News. I listen to NPR every so often when driving to job sites. While you say the public airwaves are saturated with hate rhetoric, I don't see or hear it because I choose not to. Others could make the same choice but don't as for some, it reinforces their beliefs and confirms their worldview. Even if the likes of Palin were shut down, these people would quickly find some other to fill the void.

[Rex]

23. That is kinda the point, you are talking about what YOU do as a normal person.

Free of mental illness. The last thing a mentally ill person needs is hate radio or TVEE for 8 hours a day.

[Kaleva]

24. Should we then ban sermons and the Bible because someone...

got their instructions to kill from God?

[Rex]

25. If the Bible was full of nothing but hate and anger and murder then DUH.

Sadly that analogy won't work, try another.