Are men the new "ball and chain"?

[FLPanhandle]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/11/rosin.ted.women.men/index.html?hpt=C2

...I came to the conclusion that we have reached this new point in history, where the power dynamics between men and women are shifting rapidly, not by preformed ideology but by connecting the data points: college graduation rates, job projections, marriage patterns, pop culture images.

When you open your eyes to the evidence, you can see that so many of our assumptions about the natural order between men and women are no longer relevant.

In a recent article I wrote for the Atlantic, called "The End of Men" (the basis for the talk), I lay out all the statistics. In the United States, for every two men who receive college degrees, three women will do the same. This past year, for the first time, there were more women than men in the workplace.

Women are starting to flood professional fields -- they are doctors, lawyers, accountants, bankers. They hold more than half of all managerial and professional jobs. They dominate all but two of the professions projected to grow the fastest in the next 15 years (janitor and computer programmer). The worldwide economy is becoming a place where, overall, women are finding more success than men.


As the father of two daughters, I liked this. I constantly tell them that they don't need a man. If they want a one, that's fine, but if he becomes a pain...dump him, you can do fine on your own.

[rfranklin]

1. Now, if we can only transplant uteruses into male bodies....

we have a new paradigm.

[eleny]

2. Recently, I overheard two elderly widowed women in the locker room of the rec center

They were discussing how they each never wanted to marry after their respective husband's died.

Then one of the women piped up and said, "At this point in our lives the only thing the old guys want is a nurse and a purse!".

[Ilsa]

29. I had to explain this to my widower father ten years ago

after Mom died and he wanted to get serious about a woman. I reminded him that she had taken care of a family, and had buried two husbands after they died after long illnesses. I told him I doubted that she wanted to spend her last years taking care of another man, even if she cared about him. He realized I was right: this is the time for them to enjoy their freedom from responsibilities.

[pnwmom]

3. And what will you tell them about any sons they may have?

Can they dump them if they become a pain?

You seem to think this new world is good news. I don't think it's good no matter which half is having trouble.

[FLPanhandle]

6. WTF, you can't be serious

Comparing male children to a male romance???

If you, oh...nevermind...not worth the effort.

[pnwmom]

7. You said you "liked this." That the world was becoming

a place where women can find more success than men. Why do you like this? Shouldn't we be aiming for a world that is good for both? What about our sons and grandsons?

[FLPanhandle]

9. Yes I do like this.

BTW, nothing is stopping men from succeeding and they still have more advantages and better pay. It's good to see women making up ground and not being dependent on men.

I take that back a bit. I don't like it...I LOVE it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. If that's your takeaway, you didn't read the article very closely.

Boys do not have the same equality of opportunity that girls do. They are 33% less likely to go to college.

The question posed to you was exactly valid. Will you feel the same antipathy to your grandsons as you do to my sons?

On second thought, it might not be an issue. Like 75% of parents seeking the services of fertility clinics, they'll probably request daughters.

If there is one single statistic which drives a nail into the coffin of the myth of male social dominance, that should be it.

[FLPanhandle]

24. I read the article.

Where does society limit men. Girls may be jumping at opportunities more than boys right now, but you'll have to show me specific barriers to male opportunities.

What are these specific barriers that deny men equal opportunity? List them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. A male child entering primary school...

... is unlikely to encounter any adults of his gender (except perhaps the groundskeeper) until he is in middle school. By that time, it's unsurprising he has absorbed the social message that school isn't really intended for him. As fewer men graduate from college, fewer still become teachers. It is a self-perpetuating cycle.

Grades reflect this; use math as an example. Boys consistently get poorer letter grades despite scoring better on the tests? Why? Obviously the teachers are grading the students on something other than their absorption of math skills.

But how does our society respond to this grossly disproportionate academic success rate? The Women's educational equity program. Programs which grant millions to school districts for the purpose of extending the academic advantages enjoyed by girls.

This is justified on the basis that it's a socially useful goal because there's plenty of "men's work" (meaning dangerous and unpleasant) that uneducated guys can do. Granted, those jobs represent 80% of the jobs lost in the last recession, but that is only an inconvenient fact to the degree that anyone cares. Lock 'em in the glass cellar.

American parents have a strong bias toward daughters as shown by the fertility clinic statistic. If employers were, like parents, to express a 3:1 preference for male employees I doubt anyone would fail to recognize the nature of this specific social barrier. Think about it - the parents of 75% of boys would have preferred a daughter. Little Billy should just "man up" about it I guess. His sister simply jumped at the opportunities that cultural preference for girls provided.

You really should watch the video which accompanied the article. More women in the workforce, more women graduating from college with both graduate and undergraduate degrees, more women managers, higher income for unmarried women than unmarried men.

Equality is a milepost which can only be seen in the rearview mirror.

There's a part of me which realizes that it's pointless to try to blow against the wind. Unemployed is how this society wants its men. Being a ball and chain is okay, maybe make a war to give 'em something to do.

I can understand wanting the best for your kids. Just don't pretend that it's about equality or springs from enlightenment.

[seabeyond]

40. i hear ya, but i dont think it is in system, i think it needs to be a societal adjustment.

there are advantages for boys in school also, more readily called on, treated as leader.

i think the disadvantage is how boys are treated at home. they are seen more as active and not "capable" of the stuff condusive to education. we have talked about this before. raising boys, i found it assumed they werent articulate in language or not interested in reading. because conversation, critical thinking, reading and education is so important in this house, that is how the approached school.

i think in the past with well paying employment for men outside academics, we have let our boys not focus on academics. succeeding and accomplishing at sports an alternative. doesnt do it today.

as far as the make teachers, we have talked about it. i did a lot of research a while back. the men are not being stopped from elementary school, there are both societal pressures and personal decisions that keep the wall up. it is not the system that want to keep men out. i wuold love to see more males in early education.

[Hannah Bell]

30. i think you're about 30 years behind the times.

[yourout]

4. you mean "Ball(S) and chain"

[FLPanhandle]

5. Well played sir!

[Kurovski]

11. Dammit!

I came here to post that! :mad:

I shall retreat to my lair and perhaps compose a dick joke...

[bettyellen]

8. they have made employment gains because they are underpaid compared to men.

it's all about the $$$$.

[MuseRider]

10. That was exactly

what I was coming in to post but you beat me to it!


Good for you OP Dad! Equality will only come when women are respected. Being the best and thought to be the best on their own it will come. It is gonna take a long long time I am afraid, and we have already been working on it for a long time, but it will come. No, they do not need a man. It would be nice if they were thought of as wanting a spouse/companion rather than having to "catch" one and bring him down. With personal success that will be a much more accepted thought.

[FLPanhandle]

14. Nothing like having daughters...

To open up a once chauvinistic mind to women's rights. :)

[MuseRider]

15. It seems to work like that

for most things. GLBT equality issues often work like that too. Congratulations! I am always pleased, no matter how it happened, to see one more enlightened man among us.

[kimi]

17. Interesting that you say this

I was thinking the other day that I was a female chauvinist till I had 5 boys. :)

[bettyellen]

25. it made me wonder why the level off in salaries hasn;t seemed to help

African American men more, as they also tend to be underpaid.
Two theories: men still feel free to treat us shittier at work, feel less threatened.
or, they think, hey they are just keeping it in the family: i/e/ their woves often work.

[Hannah Bell]

33. The bottom 50% of men, & black men in particular, have lost income absolutely.

and the bottom 50% of women haven't done much better.

why would you have thought any "level off" in salaries would help black men?

The expansion of the labor force holds down wages unless the work expands commensurately. and it didn't.

[bettyellen]

45. that they would show they were being hired in greater numbers lately, which I have never heard is

the case. This OP argues it has "helped" women, I argued it happened because it helped companies save money on salary. AFrican Americans are paid less overall, but I have never heard that they are making "inroads" as we hear women are.

[Hannah Bell]

32. no, because upper middle class & upper class women went to work &

lower class men lost ground big-time.

lower-class women have *always* worked & haven't gained much, but their potential partners have lost.

that "women make less than men" stat is a bullshit stat. The conglomeration of various kinds of work & working conditions to get a single stat falsifies reality.

[treestar]

12. If a woman knows she can make it on her own

That's what she needs to know. Even when married. The divorce rate is so high that there is no security in depending on a man, and women are picking up on that. Men are just desserts, as they say. You have to think of it that way to survive.

[HEyHEY]

23. That is a horrible way to look at life and people

Living as though your marriage could fall apart at any moment? I'd rather be dead.

[treestar]

44. Don't you have to?

Everyone thinks they are the exception, but . . It's not horrible to look after yourself.

It happens to somebody. Which would go both ways, too, if the man is the one without the job, same thing.

People need to stay in the job market, just in case. Nothing worse than a divorce where someone suddenly has no money.

[Roundtree65]

13. "The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness"....

And yet....

'Liberated and Unhappy' - NYTimes, May 25, 2009:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/26/opinion/26douthat.html?_r=1


The study: "The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness"
http://bpp.wharton.upenn.edu/betseys/papers/Paradox%20of%20declining%20female%20happiness.pdf

[conspirator]

16. Yep. That's the reverse side of the coin: women "forced" to be career successful are unhappier

That's why middle class divorce is rampant. Middle class women don't need men for resource providing, on the other hand men don't like women who are constantly challenging him.
There is nothing wrong with the decline of marriage. Maybe we are evolving into a society similar to dolphins. The family structure is just the mother and the offspring. Males and females only get together occasionally for some fun.

[Roundtree65]

20. The "work work work girls" message is neo-Calvinism

The "happiness is the workplace" message for women is ironic, and demented.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. Like dolphins but with more child support.

:puke:

[liberalhistorian]

28. Yeah. God forbid men should ever have

to contribute anything to the support of their own children they helped create. Yes, sirree, how horribly unfair. It should just be dumped all on the woman, like it is anyway for millions of them not getting any support.

[conspirator]

31. Sometimes women "forget" to take the pill and men have to bear the

consequences of women that want to breed irresponsibly

[seabeyond]

36. like i put all responsibility on women, i put it all on my sons too. you can damn well bet

that i have told my sons, bottom line, anytime sex, possibility of preg. risk fluctuates depending on choice, but it is always there. and NEVER depend on partner.

so no.... i dont go much with this one. wear a condom, regardless.

[Bunny]

42. Yeah. It's a damn shame when those irresponsible women hold

the poor men down and force their penis inside them, then demand their sperm so they can breed. I HATE when that happens.

[liberalhistorian]

43. Really? MEN "have to bear the consequences?"

Since when are they being forced against their will to have sex? Unless you have an IQ of 14, you know that any time you have sex it could result in a pregnancy and that NO birth control is 100 percent effective. And men should be equally responsible for the prevention of pregnancy if they don't want one. Ever hear of a condom? You don't wanna have a kid, don't take it out of your pants. Geez, those poor, poor men. Being forced to have sex agains their will. What is this world coming to?

[Darth_Kitten]

41. +1000

Right on!

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. A fathers's role should be more than...

"Thanks for the sperm, send the checks to PO box X"

Which is exactly what the person to whom I was responding proposed.

[seabeyond]

38. actually rate of divorce has decreased for more educated. marriage on the rise

for some groups

[FreeState]

18. Just the heterosexual ones...

Nothing like a good old heterocentric article.

[RainDog]

22. I always thought they were the sticky end of the lollipop...

[kentuck]

27. Janis Joplin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBFRNBxT_o

[SoCalDem]

34. I have read many times that when women are widowed, they often do not remarry

but the flip side is not the case.. Once children are raised, if a woman gets divorced, it's also true that many choose to remain single.

Women have traditionally been paid less and only recently moved into jobs with much power, so for a corporate boss, women are a bargain..

well educated
resourceful
hard working
eager
and willing to work for less
:( , but true in too many cases.

Remaining man-less does not necessarily mean they don't like men..just that they prefer to take them in small doses and not have to have the work that goes along with being married:) My best friend has a "beau", and after only 6 months he's pressuring her to move in with him.. She shut him down fast...

[SmileyRose]

35. Jeff Foxworthy has a joke

"I took out the garbage jest fer you sweet pea."


Just about every married woman in the audience points at her husband. It's the reason women don't tend to get remarried.

[lunatica]

37. Frankly I always hated the term 'ball and chain'

And I always hated the term 'war of the sexes' or any term that insulted one sex over the other or one race over the other.

As we've come to realize in the last few days, words count.

[seabeyond]

39. it is a ridiculously insulting term for no reason. nt

[csziggy]

46. My mother raised all four of her daughters to be able to support themselves

In an era where women were expected to marry and have children, not have a career. Three of her four daughters had careers and married men who were supportive of their careers. All three of us had careers that were more dominant in our lives than that of our husbands. The other had a career and married a great guy, but made being a mother the major focus of her life for twenty years.

Mom was considered a bit of a radical in the small Southern town we lived in. She did not raise us to be beauty queens or housewives. When we went to college it was not to find a husband, it was to actually get degrees so we could support ourselves. Clothing, hair and make up were not important values to us. Many thought our family to be odd because we valued knowledge and science over social contacts and dating.

Mom always told us we should be able support ourselves. If we found a good man, that was OK, but marriage for the sake of getting married was never considered an option.