If we're no better than they are than what are we?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

Violent rhetoric is disgraceful and it should not be tolerated on any side of the political debate *especially* the side that works for peace and non-violence.

[lonestarnot]

1. Speak for yourself middle of the roader.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. As I have long opposed wars and violent actions in Iraq and elsewhere

I don't see why I should suddenly like to see them come home to America.

[Occulus]

38. Good! Then you have nothing to worry your precious little heart over,

because that's not close to what he said.

[FarLeftFist]

41. STAYING QUIET IS NOT WORKING. TIME FOR REVOLUTION. Peacefully.

We can win with Facts Logic and Reasoning.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. Facts and logic will win.

Putting one's foot in one's mouth to be played and re-played on national TV ad nauseam will only turn the audience away from facts and logic.

[TwilightGardener]

49. He didn't put his foot in his mouth, IMO. He said what I had been wanting to hear.

[TwilightGardener]

2. Lame.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Because...?

[TwilightGardener]

6. He was talking about voting them out of office. He didn't make up a poster

full of gun-sight targets, like the Republicans like to do.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. That stupid, idiotic poster was also a metaphor and wasn't a call to violence

So?

Violent rhetoric is violent rhetoric, printed or spoken.

[TwilightGardener]

11. I am missing the violence of Hoffa's remarks.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. So if TPer said the same thing vis-a-vis liberals everyone should be OK

[Brickbat]

21. Said what?

[TwilightGardener]

24. "Everybody's got a vote, it's time to take these sons of bitches out?"

Fuck, that would be MILD compared to the shit they say.

[polmaven]

29. Yeah, me too..

I wonder when voting someone out of office became a violent thing to do.

[blm]

26. Urging people to use their vote to take GOPs out is now violent rhetoric? Are you sure?

What exactly offended you? You were able to see Palin's gunsights as a metaphor, but, you're offended by Hoffa's urge to actually use VOTING?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. Any reasonable person knew the crosshair poster was metaphorical and referred to votes

Yet, there was plenty of concern here on DU that it would be misconstrued.

Were we just being hyperventialting silly ninnies?

[TwilightGardener]

50. I don't think gun imagery belongs in politics.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

53. What's the difference? Serious, honest question.

I would think that anything that might be taken to illicit violence would be bad.

[TwilightGardener]

54. That's generally how elected officials are assassinated.

Saying we're gonna "take 'em out" in the context of voting...not seeing violence.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

56. Since Loughner had no connection to the crosshairs poster

Which politician was assassinated because of a gun image in a political ad?

[TwilightGardener]

58. I don't know what has motivated all of the assassination attempts--

But using imagery and language of the chief instrument of assassination in politics seems unwise to me (especially in light of the worshipful nature of the RW toward guns). Maybe you think the Republicans got a bad rap--that's your business. Hoffa did not use weapon imagery or language.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Stochastic terrorism...look it up

[seabeyond]

57. you have rw extremist, gun enthusists advocating killing dems to take their country back

any means necessary nuclear.... (i mean, do we take it your are professing violence by unicorn, with your name, lol. pacifist you, that would be silly). violent rw extremist is not a stretch. rw using guns is not a stretch.

[blm]

74. Why are you hyperventilating over Hoffa's urging for union voters to USE their vote to remove GOPs?

Guess you left YOUR 'reason' somewhere, eh?

[a simple pattern]

76. Says the poster with the Bettie Page avatar.

Do you condone imagery that implies violence against women?

[Brickbat]

5. What violent rhetoric are you talking about?

And not everyone supports nonviolence in all things.

[villager]

7. conversely, if we never stand up to them, and let them destroy the country -- what are we?

:shrug:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. Is there no other recourse except that sort of speech?

Are our chosen leaders really that bereft of imagination that is all they can come-up with?

Are the everyday people we're addressing so lacksidaisical that is the only way to motivate them?

[seabeyond]

10. from what i have read. they started the war. we didnt start the war, they did. we are your army

lets march and take sob's out.

since the war he is referring to is a non violent war of going after the union, then his comments would apply in the same manner. and the "we are the army", "march", "take them out" is not talk of violence but merely campaign as the right is doing against the unions.

i dont in anyway see this as a violent statement. i think it is pretty obvious that it is not

but then i am only getting pieces of what is said, unless there is something i am not aware of

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. I see it as no different than that stupid gun-sight poster

Why wouldn't someone who leans to the Tea Party see that statement as a therat? Surely we don't want to leave them with that impression because then things escalate.

Will anyone complain if a poster showing Mr. Hoffa in gun-sights suddenly starts making the rounds?

Someone has to be the adult. Supposedly that's us.

[seabeyond]

16. Everybody here's got to vote. If we go back and keep the eye on the prize,

really? he is clearly saying with the vote. and you see it no different from

lock and load
take em out
2nd amendment solution
site dem in

you really dont see any difference.

i see a huge, huge amount of difference.

i think this would be considered no different than a sports reference, only a war reference. but clearly stating in terms of political solution.

[TwilightGardener]

18. "Don't retreat, reload"--exactly. What Hoffa said does not approach that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. "let's take these [liberal] sonsofbitches out"

No reasonable person would / should take that as a threat?

[TwilightGardener]

27. Not in context, no.

[seabeyond]

28. Everybody here's got to vote. If we go back and keep the eye on the prize,

you cannot leave the first part of the statement out NU. that is just wrong. it is CLEARLY speaking about taking them out thru a vote.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. I know the full quote and I know the context

but I'm not the only one hearing it and not everyone who hears it reads DU.

[Brickbat]

33. So we should parse what we say because of how a propaganda network might miscontrue it?

No thanks.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. Then we have no right to complain about the RW's militant metaphors

Do we want conservatives to parse what they say just so liberals don't misconstrue it?

Why do we even feel the need for militant metaphors? I thought we were the anti-war/violence party.

[Brickbat]

37. I still don't see what's "militant" about encouraging people to vote.

Who says we're anti-war/violence?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. Shouldn't we be anti-war/violence?

Or do we approve of war and violence when it suits our purposes?

Are other people allowed to use violence when it suits their purposes?

I understand self-defense when there is an imminent, material threat but then again what do we owe the world in reducing the underlying causes? Smarter diplomacy and less poverty could have saved us from 9/11 and the decade(s) of war that resulted.

[Brickbat]

64. What's violent and militant about encouraging people to vote?

[Odin2005]

71. That is hard when the Facists are already engaging in Class War against us.

You are merely telling us to lie down and take being fucked over in the name of "pacificsm".

[seabeyond]

43. dont retreat, reload. sighting in faces and saying take them out. lock and load.

where would dems be doing the same.

another thing we have to get beyond is saying both sides are equal

i am really fair. i dont hate repugs. i am into a sense of justice.

but i see no balance, that you talk about, at all.

[seabeyond]

40. it makes absolutely no sense to me that someone can argue this is violent.

and if it is the right that is yelling this, shows once again, their unwillingness ot reasonable, and grab onto anything to make it soemthing it is not

lock and load. sighting in. says only one thing

this is clearly saying, use your vote. i cannot understand a single way a person can misconstrue this in a violent manner.

[Brickbat]

30. Not if you include the whole context, which you haven't done.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

55. Full context applies to the crosshairs poster as well

[Occulus]

65. not when he begins it with a voting reference, no.

Unless you consider voters at the polls a threat, which is exactly how he wants Republicans to consider Democratic and union voters. We are a threat tio them at the polls if we all get out and vote. This has ever been the truth, and Republicans do not want the public to realize that.

Hence the real reason behind their hyperventilation of what was said here: above all other things, motivating people to vote these sonsofbitches out is the last thing Republicans want.

However, they would very much like to thank you for this thread, because you're doing their work for them. Knock it off. Now.

[Bake]

42. If they want to take it as a threat, fine.

TAKE THEM OUT OF OFFICE.

If they take it as something else, maybe -- just maybe -- it will make people like Coulter think twice before spewing their violent bullshit.

Some of us WILL fight back. Bullies need to have their noses bloodied sometimes.

Bake

[Hawkowl]

12. Victims? Sheep? nt

[Eric J in MN]

13. Fox Doctors Hoffa Speech To Fabricate Call For Violence

===
During the segment that the bloggers have latched onto, Fox edited out the bolded portion of Hoffa's comments:


HOFFA: Everybody here's got to vote. If we go back and keep the eye on the prize, let's take these son of a bitches out and give America back to America where we belong! Thank you very much!
===

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109050003

[seabeyond]

15. Everybody here's got to vote. If we go back and keep the eye on the prize,

there you go. makes it damn obvious not violent rhetoric.

personally i have not been following this whole thing. was pretty sure it was stupid. only got pieces moment ago, to find out what violent rhetoric hoffa spewed.

thanks for this info

[G_j]

47. thanks nt

[frazzled]

17. I have long agreed with your viewpoint

After the debacle of 2000, so many were calling for us to have our own Rush Limbaugh, and I always wondered what we would win by descending to the very depths that we despise. I continue to feel that way.

However, there is a conundrum (which some people in this thread are pointing out): the loudest voice seems to get the attention, and we can't let them ride roughshod over us. I don't know where you can draw the line. I just have my own moral dimension and taste preferences for political mudslinging.

It all reminds me of the noisy noisy restaurants that I hate, which are constructed especially to BE noisy, with high ceilings, no acoustic dampening, and loud music. The people at the next table have to talk very loudly to be heard, and suddenly you have to talk even louder to be heard by your companions, and then the next table has to actually start screaming. Pretty soon the whole place is an auditory nightmare. My only solution is to throw a dinner party at home. Politics? Not so easy.

[durablend]

19. WOOT! Doormat Party! Yes! We! Are!

"Pleez can I has back some of the lunch money I gave you?"

[Broderick]

22. Sharpen up the callouses on your back

cause I guess we are supposed to be tread all over as we get walked on. Shrug.

[Tom Ripley]

23. Your concern is noted

[durablend]

32. Well just remember

When President Bachman/Perry gets in and shoves a Bible down your throat, at least you can say "Well gosh AT LEAST we were nice to them!"

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. That's ridiculous

And, frankly, sounds paranoid. Who exactly will do this bible pushing? Certainly "President Bachmann" is not going to drive to my house.

And how does ridiculous "take them out" rhetoric keep that from happening? Is that what the average voter really needs to hear to get off the couch?

"Banal" doesn't even begin to cover it.

[Eric J in MN]

44. The full sentences Hoffa said

"Everybody here's got to vote. If we go back and keep the eye on the prize, let's take these son of a bitches out and give America back to America where we belong! Thank you very much!"

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109050003

[Nuclear Unicorn]

51. I know the full quote but not everyone hearing it frequents DU

And no reasonable person ever claimed the crosshairs poster put out by that person whose last name begins with "P" illicited anything other than votes, yet there was plenty of concern over that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. The road to the New Deal was not paved with flower petals.

Grandpa was a Molly McGuire.

[uppityperson]

35. In general, of course. If you're talking about Hoffa? No, that wasn't what I consider violent

Disrespectful, yes, but not violent. "Kill a liberal" is violent, calling someone sons of bitches and "take out at vote" isn't.

But in general, of course violent rhetoric is disgraceful and shouldn't be tolerated.

[Bluenorthwest]

52. How is voting violent?

Please explain. I fully disagree with you if you are talking about Hoffa, and I'll go so far as to say that your passive aggressive wording is so vague because you lack specific criticisms. The arch implication without naming your intended target is a shitty tactic, and it should remain only on their side.

[Broderick]

61. Don't know

:shrug:

[woo me with science]

59. I am weary of the language police. nt

[Brickbat]

60. Shiny squirrel, indeed.

[EC]

62. VIOLENT?

Nothing violent about what Hoffa said. Why do you think it was violent?

[Morning Dew]

63. Good grief.

Concern duly noted.

[Raine]

66. well I know what not fighting back makes us ... L-O-S-E-R-S. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

67. ?

[Waiting For Everyman]

68. You're no better than they are at getting the facts straight, apparently.

There was no violent rhetoric. The newsworthy bit was the RW fabricating an issue - again. Lying to demonize innocent people - again. That's what is disgraceful and shouldn't be tolerated. Picking up the RW's phoney story and running with it is just as disgraceful... especially by those who are not supposedly "low info" as an excuse for it.

That is being a deliberate accomplice in a mass lie and a public smear. Nice job. :sarcasm: People should learn to be responsible enough to aim their outrage where it belongs.

[Gemini Cat]

69. Politics isn't a garden party.

Your concern has been noted and placed in the appropriate file.
:eyes:

[Odin2005]

70. They started the Class War, we have a right to defend ourselves.

The Fascists need to be destroyed before they destroy humanity.

[Proud Public Servant]

72. Here's the thing

I'm a non-violent guy, a believer in tolerance, reason, and compromise. But I'm also a dad. If someone tries to rape my little girl, I'm not going to tolerate, reason, or compromise with him; I'm going to grab the nearest weapon-like object I can find and start swinging.

And I love my country like I love my little girl.

[Lost-in-FL]

73. Hoffa should indeed apologize...

to bitches. Calling bitches "Teapartiers" is a great insult to hard working bitches around the world.

[kentuck]

75. Where is the violence??

Or violent language?

Certainly it cannot be more violent than carrying a weapon strapped to your leg at a presidential event?

[seabeyond]

77. another consideration overlooked. this is NOT an elected official. the elected democrats

have no control or power, or say over what civilians say.

when you are comparing this to the republicans we are talking about people running for high office like the vice presidency, as she taunted follwers to violence. and other elected official. and the fuck you from cheney, ect

big difference between hoffa and an elected official. and why is anyone DEMANDING anything from obama?

are ALL elected republicans responsible for all that republicans and teabaggers say? then they should be calling out the savages, limbaughs and becks.... not to mention most all of the fox news people, regularly

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. I see, you have bought the meme

Voting = violence

By the way what they are doing is STRAIGHT out of the big lie, fascist playbook. "labor wants a war, and will have blood run in the streets."

You really NEED TO READ THE UNEDITED COPY.

There, I feel better.

Then duckies quack and they are NOT cute.

[The Gunslinger]

80. Hoffa rhetoric was not violent

it was about voting people out of office. Dont follow the right wing media train.