Odd part of Obama's speech

[Johonny]

For the truth is that none of us can know exactly what triggered this vicious attack. None of us can know with any certainty what might have stopped those shots from being fired, or what thoughts lurked in the inner recesses of a violent man’s mind.

The guy is still alive that did this. I imagine he knows. He might eventually tell us what thoughts lurked in the inner recesses of his mind. A lot of these people are eventually more than happy to talk and talk about their thoughts. Just thought it was a little weird to talk like the shooter was dead too.

Clinton's Oklahoma City speech did not share this view. He clearly felt we "bring to justice those who did this evil.". We eventually did learn from the people that did it, why Oklahoma City happened. Only 15 years ago our country had the capacity to think we could do things and know things.

I liked his speech overall. Classy, exactly what I thought Obama would give. That one part though was a little weird.

[WingDinger]

1. His thoughts are scrambled eggs. He followed the feeling.

Like a dog would. They are dead to rights connected. But not directly. If you attempt to make it direct, you will lose. He is paranoid scyzo.

[kestrel91316]

6. Schizophrenics have a lot more going on upstairs than a dog.

I know because my mother is one, and until her stroke dementia, she was a very smart woman. Your comment is disgustingly cruel and inappropriate.

Here's the deal: schizophrenics are for the most part NOT blind or deaf. They hear the voices screeching messages of hate from the tv and radio, telling them who to kill - but the voices are no longer imaginary - they are very real.

[backscatter712]

8. Maybe if he's put on proper medication and therapy, he could enlighten us.

If he is indeed schizophrenic, he can be treated, and maybe once he's stabilized, thinking clearly, and a civilized person again, maybe he could tell us what was going on in his head that lead him to commit those acts of violence.

[WingDinger]

24. Then, we would have Glenn Beck. Not much to learn.

[RichGirl]

11. I've never known one but from having read some books on the subject...

...it seems like they have too much in their mind...as opposed to a dog who has very simple thoughts. It's almost as if some of their thoughts come from an outside source.

As a rule, schizophrenics are very intelligent..high IQs. That actually works against them.

[WingDinger]

23. I didnt mean he IS a dog, just that the general harsh tone would color his perceptions.

And the scrambled speech, is a characteristic pointed to as ubiquitous to paranoid Schiz. I have been listening.

[EFerrari]

16. My schizophrenic cousin is brilliant. He also becomes paranoid.

And he has never hurt anyone in his life. In fact, he takes care of his mother and his younger addict brother with very little help and has for years.

[WingDinger]

27. see post 23

[glaeken777]

2. didn't strike me as weird

The guy who shot her is bugshit nuts. We're never going to know exactly what set him off, even if he attempts to offer an explanation.

Cf. Manson or Sirhan. Both have made numerous attempts to explain their situations, and said reasons are completely non-sensical and random, depending on when or how they're asked.

[H2O Man]

3. I'd speculate

that President Obama was not aiming his speech towards the murderer. Just my opinion, though.

[RichGirl]

10. That's how I took it.

President Obama said...none of US know. I don't think he was including the shooter as one of US. But, having read a lot of the shooters ramblings, I don't think he has a clue either. Anyone who smiles in a mug shot after killing five people doesn't know which way is up. Even Timothy McVeigh never looked proud of himself. He always had an appropriate scowl on his face.

[H2O Man]

26. Right.

The OP is either stretching the truth purposely, or a solid example of concrete thinking. In either case, it is without merit.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

4. Even when Loughner speaks, would you believe him?

[leftstreet]

5. That's an odd statement indeed

As you say, the guy himself could probably tell us what motivated him

The statement reads like a response to the media controversy over blaming the rightwing, etc. It's possible that's what he meant.

[bigwillq]

28. That's how I took it.

This line
"The statement reads like a response to the media controversy over blaming the rightwing, etc. It's possible that's what he meant."


Nothing really to get all crazy about. That's just how I interpreted it as well.

edit:
Don't really think it was odd, but it made me think for several moments just what exactly he meant by it. I concluded, and just my opinion, that it was mentioned because of the media controversy.

[kimi]

7. You just have to see his mugshot

to know that the guy is not dealing with reality.

I doubt that we'll ever know why he did what he did. And does it matter?

What DOES matter is that mental health issues need to be made a priority in this country. Don't know if that'll ever happen, but I gotta feel hope or go batshit crazy myself.

[EFerrari]

9. Mental illness accounts for very little violence in this country.

And in terms of the violence that does occur as a result of mental illness, the environment does play a part.

So, yes, it does matter if mental illness is being in some way blamed for this when it has so little to do with it, no matter how you look at it.

[RichGirl]

12. I think anyone who kills someone else is mentally ill on some level.

I even wonder about the Bernie Maddoffs who steals peoples hard earned money without a thought. They have no conscience, no capacity to empathize. That has to be a mental illness. It isn't normal. Most of us wouldn't steal a dollar from another person.

In the case of people like this shooter...it kind of an irony. Usually being intelligent is good, being an over-achiever is good...but if you add to that mental illness and anger, you have the perfect storm for a mass murder.

I think the reason so many come back from war and commit suicide or have PTSD is because it is not in our nature to kill each other.

[kimi]

13. I don't see mental illness as a "blame" in this, any more than

other factors, including easy access to firearms, etc.

Have dealt with mental illness in my own family. And I am very aware of the fact that most people with mental illness in this country do NOT commit violent crimes, never said that.

I do think, however, that there is some influence in this case. And I think, most of all, that it is tragic that mental illness is not seen as more of a priority in this country. The "WHY" may not matter so much in the end, but the "How to prevent it in the future" IS, in my opinion.

[EFerrari]

15. Right. And pushing this situation off on the mental illness

of one "violent man" probably won't do much to prevent anything when the right wing makes its bread off of inciting hatred and even violence.

[jtown1123]

25. Bingo.

[MrMickeysMom]

14. The response on this thread sure is interesting

Everyone's got something to say. Some opinions use analysis from close vantage point or are more objective because we're talking about "understand why people do things" - a deep psychology, in my view.

I wish some people would understand that what has happened is "mad" in the general sense and can be analyzed in the specific sense. It takes an understanding that does not come easy, therefore, some people need to back off a minute.

Right now I'd say some analysis is in order. This dude should be treated so that they might reached something inside his head... something ain't right in those inner recesses.

[Newest Reality]

17. Sometimes ...

we may be dealing as much with our own map of reality as we are the information that is being considered and filtered through our personal, worldview. Then, like mind-readers, it is easy to believe that our thoughts and assessments of another person's subjectivity are factual or accurate.

This is especially a problem when we are not asking that specific person questions and gathering information in order to assess our own assumptions.

Our personal experiences and nervous systems are unique and different enough to take that into account. It is alright to mind-read and speculate if you are able to discern that you are doing it and not consider it real when you don't have a way to verify it. It may seem like a subtle difference to some, but it is a useful discipline where one can continue to wonder and estimate a situation while remaining flexible, open and more prone to inquiry and updates.

[MrMickeysMom]

18. So...

... It's pretty hard to be objective, I'm guessing. :-)

[Newest Reality]

19. Well, I could practice this right here ...

Did you mean that it is hard to be objective because this sounds like an effort or a skill?

It seems that discerning the subjective from the objective makes being objective clearer, especially when it comes to subjects that are based on consensus reality versus physical facts. This is not too difficult other than overcoming a habitual tendency to consider one's reactions to be synonymous with who or what one is observing. I've always found it enjoyable to practice.

A trained therapist, for instance, who learns not to assume another person's internal state, (in some disciplines) would come to ask questions to verify assumptions or intuitions, (some are accurate) and might also pay more attention to many other, non-verbal details.

What happens is that, with time, your assessments do become more accurate and less weighted with bias. It is clarifying.

[MrMickeysMom]

22. I meant...

It's hard to be objective because of the quantification one must use by scientific method in this area of social science. It's not like you can wait until someone pulls a trigger, hold them down, and withdraw an immediate sample of neurotransmitters to measure a level in the brain. Much of figuring out what is going on is done after the outcome, making it retrospective.

Where it concerns the assessments we're talking about here, it's harder to be objective because there are many, many variables (you named a few, non-verbal, for example) to indicate "what's going on".

I can't go any deeper to comment that wonder about "consensus reality". This "reality" is still based on a quantifiable number of subjective data points.

I'd say that when studying America, it seems to hold a darned big dysfunctional population in order to obtain an appropriate sample size.

Plus, the real questions we're answering here don't merit the same status as studies in peer review journals that test a publicly traded drug company who is trying to sell something that intends to change the "outcome" of mental illness.

Do we really know why we do what we do.... empirically?

[Whisp]

20. I felt no wierdness at all.

I felt his message of helping and humanity and what we can do for each other every day. Of course he's a much bigger person than I and I was teeny tiny hoping he'd tell Palin and her wilnots to Fuck off, but naw.

[Abq_Sarah]

21. It was a great speech

And no, I don't think we'll ever know what thoughts lurked in the shooter's mind, or more accurately, be able to comprehend his thoughts. He ceased being someone anyone but the seriously disturbed could relate to long ago.