On 9/11

[MadHound]

Don't get me wrong, I feel for those people who died that day.

But I refuse to participate in this two week long, hyper-inflated orgy of "grief and remembrance." I refuse to join any such tributes, in fact I'm doing my level best to ignore the whole spectacle.

Spectacle is exactly what this is. A spectacle designed to stir up jingonism, nationalism, and rekindle fear. It is an over the top patriotic spectacle for the masses, complete with a "solid threat assessment" that somebody, somewhere is planning on another attack today.

9/11 has been never primarily been about memorializing the victims, but rather about cover up and stirring up peoples' base emotions of hatred and hypernationalism. Yes, thousands died that day, but their death has been transformed from a tragedy to a red, white and blue orgy of nationalism that rivals Nazi memorials to the Beer Hall Putsch.

Let's look at other comparable events. In 1951, on the tenth anniversary of Pear Harbor, there was nowhere near the attention paid to memorializing that event as there is 911. The tenth anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombings came and went with little fuss, perhaps because the perpetrator was a white Christian instead of a brown Muslim.

But 911 is being taken over the top. Starting two weeks ago there were the beginnings of the insanity. Swathed in nationalism, we have been treated to endless "tributes", remembrances, "new details", and let us not forget, increased security and a bonus terror threat. Today, it is going to be nothing but 911 for twenty four hours straight.

Personally, thought I feel for the families of the victims, I refuse to wallow in this corporate-state sponsored hypernationalistic feeding frenzy. I've found the only radio station, commercial and non-commercial, that isn't doing some 911 tribute and plays music that I can stand. I'm going to work outside this morning, and when I go in to watch football, I will time my watching to begin with the ending of the invariable 911 tribute.

I refuse to participate in this sort of hypernationalism. It isn't a genuine rememberance, and frankly it isn't healthy for our country.

[orpupilofnature57]

1. Your right about the M$M factor ,your wrong about not participating..

You are right now.

[MadHound]

2. I'm not participating in the hypernatioalism of this day,

I see no flags waving here, I hear no Lee Greenwood.

I'm simply writing about my feelings about this day, and perhaps some truth that people need to hear.

[ixion]

3. agree 100%.

on all counts. k/r

[dipsydoodle]

4. The main thing which gets glossed over

is that it was the event which was use to convert the small group known as al qaeda into a significant worldwide terrorist network.

[MadHound]

5. What gets glossed over as well

Is that it has been used as an excuse to dramatically swing this country towards being a police state. Torture, eavesdropping, all this and more are accepted, even embraced by most people as "keeping them safe".

[defendandprotect]

62. US/CIA created Taliban/Al Qaeda and was financing it up to the moment of 9/11 ... and maybe beyond .

was done thru ISI-Pakistan --

Al Qaeda was a very old organization, pretty much extinct when it was picked

up by the Nazis -- and after WWII they passed it along to our CIA.

Brzezinski wanted to "bait the Russians into Afghanistan -- in hopes of giving

them a Vietnam-type experience" --

We had gone into Afghanistan 6 months before the Russians.



You might also remember those very violent text books used in Afghanistan to "teach"

Jihad to children? They were also our creation -- written, printed, published here --

and shipped into the ME in order to try to create a more violent form of Islam!

[MineralMan]

6. You are participating in it. By making it clear that you are

refusing to participate in it, you do what you say you refuse to do. For many people here on DU, 9/11 was an event that affected them in real, personal ways. You needn't participate in the 10-year commemoration of that day. You needn't insert your distaste for such remembrances into the discussion. It is sufficient to simply not acknowledge the day.

[MadHound]

7. You're not getting the point that I'm trying to make,

Namely that we've turned this day of remembrance into a day of hypernationalism, jingoism and fear. That's why I'm not participating. That is what I save my "distaste" for.

[MineralMan]

12. I understand your point. I'm not watching coverage today, either.

Others are, however. It is my choice, and I don't feel the need to whine about it. For some, the coverage of the activities in NYC is somehow comforting. You can choose what you watch or don't watch. There's no need to broadcast your disdain. Just don't participate in what you disdain. Not every emotion or feeling that passes through your brain is worthy of sharing.

[MadHound]

13. Are you the arbiter of what is considered worthy of becoming an OP around here?

Such arrogance on your part is interesting, to say the least. Who died and made you admin?

And again, you are still failing to get my point, namely that we've turned what should be a day of quiet remembrance into a full bore hypernationalistic, jingoistic celebration of much of what is worst in the American psyche. The victims, the friends and families of the victims are now little more than props in what has become a propaganda holiday.

[pintobean]

17. You need one of those really cool

'get out of jail free' cards in your sig line.

[MineralMan]

18. I have an opinion. That is all. Like all other members of DU,

I can express my opinion here, either as an OP of my own, or as a reply to something another DUer has written. My opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's. YOu make a mistake in assuming that I consider myself an arbiter or anything else. You have seen my opinion. You can do whatever you wish with it. It is neither less nor more than your opinion. It is, as are most posts on DU, simply an opinion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. I'm assuming you will begin to take your own advice?

<<Not every emotion or feeling that passes through your brain is worthy of sharing.>>

If everyone believed that, we'd have no DU. But if it works for you, go for it.

[MineralMan]

29. Oh, there are many, many thoughts I do not express here.

Believe me about that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Unless you have access to the OP's mind, you don't know that he expresses ALL his thoughts here

Now, do you?

[sabrina 1]

54. By the same token, there's no need for you to broadcast your

your disdain for someone else choosing to broadcast their reasons for not wanting to get involved. But we are all human and you are perfectly free to register your disdain for the OP just as he is free to register his, increasingly popular disdain, for the commercialization of a tragedy which as you point out, DID affect some of us very personally and which we find distasteful. We, eg, lost two neighbors on 9/11 and it sickens us that that tragedy has been used and is still being used to kill more people who had nothing to do with it. So we all have our opinions and reasons for either wanting or not wanting to participate in it.

Watching the likes of Giuliani profit some more from that tragedy, the man directly responsible for the deaths of many of the Firemen, eg, makes me ill. But I understand that to others it is comforting.

Now that the OP has registered his disdain for the 'celebrations' and you have registered your disdain for his 'broadcasting of it' and I have registered my opinion of your registering your disdain, someone else can register their disdain for my opinion, I suppose. But we are all free to view these celebrations as we wish and to let everyone know how we view them.

K&R for the OP who has every right to make his feelings known imho.

[bvar22]

56. You must not have any mirrors in your house.

LOL.



Happy 9-11 Everybody!
:party:

[Blue_In_AK]

60. Sorry, posted in wrong place.

[orpupilofnature57]

38. Keeping a forum going due to disdain ,is like going out of your way ..

to snub someone.

[MadHound]

40. Why do you think that I'm

"Keeping a forum going due to disdain"? I'm trying to make a point about the hypernationalistic frenzy that "Patriot's Day" has been used to engender in our society. What is wrong with that?

[bettyellen]

8. very true, I was dreading this, but it is a very meaningful thing for many NYers. We can look past

the hyper patriotism- that was never coming from our city anyway, thank you. Not sure why others need to piss on the mourning of such a huge loss of life.
But I don;t know a single NYer who has a real problem with the memeorial event today,

[MadHound]

9. So we should only pay attention to what New Yorkers want,

Even if those New Yorkers like Giulianni want to drag us into war and death?

New Yorkers don't have a monopoly on this subject, just as Hawaiians don't have a monopoly on Pearl Harbor, or OK City residents have a monopoly on the OKC bombing.

[bettyellen]

10. regarding our need to memorialize the loss of 3000+ people today, yes. turn off the TV.

if it means little to you, I don;t care how you spend the day. Please give us the same courtesy.
New Yorkers are not the xenophobic oil guzzling RW assholes that caused the wars, We are the polar opposite of the political spectrum, and still amidst the jingoism we need the memorial to happen. It is a lovely touching service. Stop being a jerk, and leave us be.

[MadHound]

11. Sorry, but this isn't just your event

9/11 effected the entire country, and frankly changed it for the worst. You are taking my words as a personal insult, instead of the general commentary on the whole of the country as I meant them to be. For Christ's sake, we've had a two week orgy of "remembrance" for those who lost their lives on "Patriot Day". Don't you think that is just the tiniest bit over the top?

And frankly, if I had family that I had lost on 911, I would not want them memorialized by this faux Patriot's Day, or the hypernationalism that it has brought about. I understand that many, if not most folks who lost their lives that day were progressive, tolerant people. Don't you think they would be appalled at this sort of hypernationlistic orgy of faux grief?

As far as "leave you be", sorry, but this is a thread I started. If you want to participate, fine. If it upsets you so much, you can ignore it. But trying to shut somebody up just because you don't like what they're saying, the opinion they are voicing, well, that kind of intolerance has become more commonplace since 9/11 as well.

[bettyellen]

14. I am talikng about the event today, there is always a bunch of overblown bullshit on TV,

this is no different.
And I'm sorry but 9/11 itself did not effect the whole country, who only saw it on TV, the same way. Not by a thousand miles. Your opinion doesn;t mean much to us. When I said leave it be, I mean the Americans who are grieveing today. Unlike you, I don;t think this is about me. It is about my home, and community. Obviously it is not about yours.

The political aftermath , to be honest about it is what the idiot conservatives in the flyover states did in our name. NYers didn;t want this. I'm more disgusted by the rest of this country that turns it on and off-first it it effected you all all so deeply , now, we need it to be over, boo fucking hoo.
Your thoughts on the matter really do rank low, particularly today. Just trying to supply some much needed perspective.

[MadHound]

16. I'm not digging into those who are grieving today,

I'm commenting on what a political spectacle, an unhealthy political spectacle that this "Patriot's Day" has become. If you can't understand that, then we need to drop this conversation.

Furthermore, to state that this is all about New York, that 9/11 didn't effect the rest of the country, you are forgetting a number of things. First, there were people from all around the country in those buildings, on those planes. Second of all, we're all living with the political and social aftermath of that day. Including the dead soldiers who have been fighting in two illegal, immoral wars that came directly out of that day. Soldiers, I might add, that have come overwhelmingly from those states you so disdainfully refer to as "flyover".

You have no monopoly on the opinion in this matter, and the sheer gall of you trying to spin it otherwise, in a thread that you didn't start, is simply amazing. Again, if you don't like what I'm saying, you can put it on ignore. You can live in your own little bubble world and not deal with reality. But the fact of the matter is that 9/11 has effected the entire country, both immediately on that day, and in the long term results that arose from the events of that day. Deal with it.

[bettyellen]

19. Obviously it has not effected most of you enough to give respect or even breathing room to NYrs who

like it or not, were much more deeply and directly than you are capable of imagining.
Bush was going to find a way into Iraq, aided by people like you who say this as only a political event.
It is a shame you haven't seen any os the event today. The love expressed by family members, their gratitude to be there, is very much evident. Tremendously touching, it;s understood that this is the last itme something like this memorial can and shoud happen. It's lovely to hear the rest of you here who wathed from the bleachers, telling everyone it;s time to get over it.

[MadHound]

20. You assume an awful fucking lot about my connections to the events of 9/11

You assume that I didn't know anyone who died from those events. You assume that I know nobody who died as a result of aftermath of 9/11. You assume far too much.

You are not the only one who is/was personally effected. Just because I don't where my grief on my sleeve, just because I don't join in on the hypernationalistic, chest thumping grief doesn't mean that I was directly effected.

Perhaps you should keep your assumptions to yourself.

[MineralMan]

21. Why tell someone they should keep their assumptions to themselves?

Like you, the person you're addressing has an equal right to express herself here on DU, and should be free to comment on a post of yours.

You want that privilege, but you don't want others to have it? I guess I don't understand that. Any DUer may post in any thread. It's not appropriate to tell them they should not, I think.

[MadHound]

23. I suggest that you revisit the difference between assumptions and opinions

I have no problem with people expressing their opinions, and unlike the poster I was speaking with, I wouldn't tell them to keep their opinions to themselves, which you did as well.

But making assumptions about a person you don't know, that's an entirely different thing.

[MineralMan]

27. Lacking concrete information, we all make assumptions.

Inferring things from what is said is a necessary thing. Opinions are based on what is said and on our inferences of things unsaid. Since we cannot know what the actual experiences of an anonymous poster on DU may be, we must infer some things from what is posted by that anonymous poster. It happens all the time, because we are anonymous, more or less. What you do not say is not known. What you do say may or may not be factual. Anonymity is like that.

[MadHound]

30. And that is why assumptions are wrong, especially on an anonymous chat board

But then again, since you apparently don't want me to post every "emotion or feeling that passes through your brain" it seems as though you only want to base your opinions on assumptions:shrug: Makes it easier for you now, doesn't it.

[bettyellen]

37. especially since I made no direct assumptions about the OP at all.

I spoke of the many americans who wanted to believe it effected them as deeply from watching tv coverage, whie it obviuosly could never. those same people it appears watched too much TV these past too weeks. so NYer should get over it, because they are over it, from watching too much crap tv.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

50. name calling is not needed here. I said NYC was probaly not your community (TRUE) and that you were

being a jerk about the sevice today (EVEN MORE TRUE).
anything else was directed to the rest of middle america bitching and moaning because they are tired of watching this on cable.
Todays events as well as all my comments here are, belive it or not, not just about you. You can;t seem to comprehend that, so I'll assume at this point that you can't comprhend it not being about you. Like I said before, boring.

[sabrina 1]

57. I didn't see the OP make any assumptions about other DUers

on a personal level. The OP expressed an opinion which you have now registered your disdain for over and over again. But he did not make personal assumptions about anyone else.

[bettyellen]

22. I assume you don;t care enough to have repect the core meanng of the memorial today.

And no, it;s not about me, I made that very very clear.
but since you continue to make this all about you, I can see where this would be easy for you to assume that others too, are thinking only about themselves. Believe it or not, this is not the case here. You just cannot see beyond your own nose here. Im kinda sad for you. But more than that, bored. Later.

[MadHound]

25. As you say, you ass u me.

Nothing more needs to be said, since the fact that you base your opinions on assumptions, always a bad practice.

[bettyellen]

34. Assumption? You've made it clear you want to shit on this day for everyone.

Thank god, the service is beautiful, sad non political- all it should be. Please don;t continue spout off about it in comlete ignorance, because you have not watched.. Because that;s bullshit.
if Odd Couple reruns are more to your taste, go for it.

[MadHound]

35. Hmm, assumptions combined with a lack of comprehension I see.

I guess you failed to note that I stated that I feel, I grieve for the victims of 911, I grieve and feel for those, including myself, who lost somebody that day.

I guess you missed the fact that I'm objecting to the hypernationalistic, jingoistic nature of this "memorial", not the action of memorializing those victims.

Nope, you're just making assumptions, and basing those assumptions on a lack of knowledge.

Keep on then, who am I to stop you from making yourself look foolish.

Peace, I'm moving on to something better than conducting a debate with one who is as misinformed and lacking in comprehension as yourself.:hi:

[bettyellen]

36. commenting on a memorial that you refuse to watch is assuming way too much.

it; repulsive.
unlike you, I didn't spend the last two week glued to the TV making myself sick over this coverage. I was smart enough to edit my media consumption so as not to get all angry and irrational over the crap that you willingly watched, LOL.

[MadHound]

42. Again, you ass u me,

You assumed that I've watched any of this hyperventilating hypernationalism. You assume wrong. In fact a couple of weeks ago I did an OP on the topic. Perhaps you should go dig it up and learn something.

Again, basing your opinions on assumptions is not a smart way to go through life.

[bettyellen]

51. Now you;re assuming I might be interested in any of the drivel you;ve written here? LOL.

That's a huge leap. And if you were reading for comprehension, you;d not have make that mistake!

[orpupilofnature57]

39. I think you've pretty much gilded that lilly your not Hyper-nationalistic

Get it!Maybe the lack of comprehension is due to a lack of Reasoning.

[MadHound]

44. Lack of reasoning on whose part, yours? n/t

[bettyellen]

52. You;re rubber and she;s glue! Yee haw!

[sabrina 1]

55. As a NYer who lost two neighbors that day, I agree with the OP.

Just seeing the likes of 9/11 Profiteer Giuliani and War mongers like Bush is an insult to those who died and whose deaths were used to kill so many more human beings.

I understand that that people find comfort in the memorial, but I wish you would understand that for others it is not at all comforting but more of a reminder that we failed to stop the use of that sad day to cause havoc in this world, to millions of other people, for whom there are no memorials.

[Wait Wut]

41. Glad you're here today.

I wasn't going to sign on here today because I knew there would be posts like this. It has become "cool" to be anti-9/11 on DU.

I spent last night alone thinking of the children without parents. The families that lost their loved ones. The first responders that lost friends. The Muslims and other ME Americans that paid the price with the loss of trust and even lives because of bigotry and stupidity. I think about the people surrounding the WTC that had their lives shattered. I'm not thinking of the wars today. I'm not thinking of politics. I'm thinking of humanity and how fragile life is. Almost 3000 people died that day, but those lives touched millions. "It's been 10 years, let's get over it" isn't something the families and friends of those lost can say. I can feel sympathy and compassion for them. No one else has to, but I find the need to act tough on the internet by saying you don't give a damn disgusting. People here need to "get over it". It isn't about them, today.

With that said, I'm flying the flag my son bought for me for Mother's Day two years ago. Yes, it's at half-staff. I may watch something on 9/11, but I'm not going to wallow in my own sadness. The Bears are playing today. My husband and I are having a beautiful Sunday together.

I will remember. For as long as I live.

[MadHound]

47. Read carefully,

If you do, I would see that I'm not "anti-9/11", but rather anti nationalism, anti-jingoism, which is what, for the majority of Americans this "memorial" has become, an orgy of hypernationalism and jingoism. I grieve for the victims of that day. I also grieve for what our nation has become since. If you don't understand that is what I'm saying, I don't know how to make it any clearer.

[TBF]

15. Rec FWIW - I am trying to ignore this spectacle as well.

Further I would call it an embarrassment. I do believe many died that day, but I do not necessarily believe the official story of the day (and I will leave it at that for this post).

I do grieve for those families, they were victims (but so are we).

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Ten years after Dec 7, 1941

we had managed to defeat two world powers in a war, including the one who had attacked us.

We had ended and won a war and brought our troops home - AND took care of them when they got here with the GI Bill and VA home loans.

And - most importantly - the USA had moved on.

I'm so glad my dad didn't live to see this shit today.

[MineralMan]

28. And yet, we still commemorate December 7 every year.

And we do it more completely on important anniversaries of that date. I've noticed that all my life.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. That's not my point at all

I would also argue that we don't commemorate as we have 911. Not even close.

My point is - we had certainly moved a lot farther along 10 years after Dec 7 than we have 10 years after 9/11. Sorry you missed it.

[Lucian]

46. You made an excellent point.

Too bad I can't recommend posts.

[MadHound]

32. Really? Do we have two week long orgies of grief and memorializing?

Do RW pundits, and not so RW pundits, use the occasion to demonize the Japanese?

There's a huge difference between the two, so please stop playing dumb.

[MineralMan]

48. We used to have such nationally. In Hawaii, there was a long string of

events for the 60th anniversary of Pearl Harbor in 2001. There will be more events there in 2011, for the 70th anniversary.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Nov/28/ln/ln10a.html

As for the demonizing, that occurred as well for a couple of decades each December 7. I do remember the right wing pundits doing that. It's just that it was done in writing, not on 24/7 television, because there was no 24/7 television in the 50s and earl 60s.

Today, December 7 events occur primarily in Honolulu, where the events occurred. So it is in NYC. There will be commemorations in NYC every decade, and they will be covered on television. You'll see.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Yet Dec 7 events in Hawaii are NOT covered on my TV

Which proves my point. But you can choose to ignore it if you wish. :)

[MineralMan]

53. No, they are not. Pearl Harbor was also not covered live

when it happened on people's TVs. Times have changed. 9/11 was covered. I saw the second plane hit, live, on my TV. Different times; different impact.

[saras]

59. It was for my father. He was there, a pipefitter on an anchored boat, when the bombs started.

He did NOT make a big romanticized deal about it, and he despised people who did.

And, another important point, it happened to him exactly once. Then he moved on - he was rather in demand after that, and had work to do.

But with 9-11, people watched it happen THOUSANDS of times, over and over and over again - people who weren't there, didn't have any close connection, had no reason to take it that personally even once, let alone thousands of times. THESE PEOPLE created an emotional climate, nationwide and longlasting, that has been unmitigatedly harmful for the country.

I am truly sorry that this climate has polluted and damaged the grieving process for so many people who WERE personally involved, but it's their hysteria that has done the damage, not others' rejection of it.

[Lucian]

45. K&R

Totally agree.

[Safetykitten]

58. Nobody is asking you to. I don't get that involved either, but I think obout

people clinging from windows then jumping from the 90th floor, and the bashing/second guessing of Obama for killing Osama Bin Laden.

[Blue_In_AK]

61. MadHound, I agree with your disdain 100%.

I too feel sorry for the families, but I think it's pretty disgraceful the way the dead have been used to justify our continuing misadventures around the globe, killing multiple times more people than were lost here. It's sickening.