The DU 180

[ixion]

It's ironic. It was 911 that first brought me to DU so many years ago. At that time, I was desperately seeking somewhere that I might find like-minded people, looking high and low for a forum where I could discuss what was going on sans the over-bearing, nationalistic jingoism that had taken over the collective dialog. After wading through a few conspiracy sites, I finally found a place where people seemed to be awake. I felt relieved. It wasn't just me. This faux-patrioit crap was really going on, and despite that I had a sounding-board where I could discuss these important issues with people who were paying attention. Rarely did I have to defend my opinions, rarely were my posts met with scorn, mockery or snark.

I was home.

Now, 10 years down the road, I'm seeing thread after thread supporting the very event that brought so many of us together. Incidentally, many of the DU'ers from those early days have moved on, or passed on, or forced out. What's left is, in large part, very disappointing. I had to get off FB today because of the incessant jingoism, which I abhor as much today as I did back then. Yet, even on DU today I"m seeing thread after thread of 'USA! USA! USA!', and I realize that DU has done a 180 from where it was back then, and now appears to be moving in the opposite direction.

And I watch with great sadness as my home moves off into the distance, singing stars and stripes forever.





it's odd how things change like that.

[jannyk]

1. K&R for a truth!

[LWolf]

2. Yes. nt

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Desertrose]

4. K & R ...so true...and so sad. nt

[HughBeaumont]

5. Agreed and K & R.

Not participating in the ubiquitous weep-fest of "remembering" wholesale failure by several tax-fattened institutions.

[MrMickeysMom]

112. What you said, HughB...

Exactly....

Speaking truth to power (and tax-fattened institutions) can be pretty tough, too.

[SammyWinstonJack]

116. +1

:applause:

[AntiFascist]

6. "Supporting the event"...

9/11 has become some sort of wierd religious thing. People seem to enjoy reliving the horror over and over and then contemplating how good this was for the US. Really? I can certainly understand a memorial involving those directly involved, but now it has become too much of a 'Pat Tillman type opportunity' for the MIC.

[ixion]

9. agreed. It's been capitalized on by

the predominant religions, government and the MIC, as well as the MSM.

I knew people who died that day, but it's something I keep to myself.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer

[ixion]

13. great quote.

spot on.

[coalition_unwilling]

43. I prefer Samuel Johnson's "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Truer

words about the Bush clan were never written and Johnson wrote them some 200 years before the Bushes were with us.

[pampango]

37. The corollary: Nationalism is the passion of conservatives. n/t

[pintobean]

8. Maybe it's a 360 and we're half way there

But I think we're just more reflective of Democrats as a whole.

[monmouth]

10. Hopefully this will be the last "formally organized" activity. Let those

who care to visit the memorial. Enough. The families of those lost remember every day, politicans plan for weeks for their own exploitation...

[ixion]

12. well quoted

:applause:

[bananas]

11. k&r, I've watched it change over the years. nt

[leveymg]

14. DU still welcomes us, the 9/11 skeptics and critics of jingoism, othodoxy and mindless cover-up.

You're not alone. Some of us are still working to correct the record. :hi:

[ixion]

25. good to know

there are still a few of us around! :toast: :hi:

[leveymg]

36. The next round's on me. Pull up a chair and hand me your glass.

:beer: :toast: :evilgrin:

[ixion]

51. thanks!

*cheers* :beer: :toast: :rofl:

[KoKo]

81. That's not quite accurate. n/t

[defendandprotect]

98. Can't be done from a "dungeon" -- too many taboo subjects ....

Israel being another very damaging one!

:hi:

[Jackpine Radical]

124. Yup.

I was on the road that day & heard about it on the radio. By the time I got home, both my wife & I had independently arrived at MIHOP. For me it was cinched a few days later when I dug up the connections between the Bush & Bin Laden clans.

I had joined DU the spring before, so it was natural for me to turn here to see what the rest of my tribe was making of the whole thing.

[librechik]

143. thank you leveymg--I always am encouraged to see your posts

feeling kinda lonely myself nowadays

[Whisp]

15. never cared for mega sports.

and this to me is like a mega sport.

apologies to ones who may take offense, but if Guiliani and the likes of him are grinning in the spotlight being all hero-ish and shit, and of course so modest...

I can do without.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Thank you. A moment of silence for those who lost their lives on 911 is appropriate

and sufficient on a day like today, but everything else is disturbing to me. DU is not the DU of old and hasn't been for years.

K&R

[saras]

128. Is it? Do we give days like this for those killed in "industrial accidents"? Or by pollution?

I don't understand why we need a special day for those killed by a treasonous plot involving government insiders, but we don't need to honor people killed every day by industrialism and its economic byproducts.

EVERY day is a good day to honor those Americans killed in the struggle for freedom, whether they die as soldiers or as workers.

I COULD, though, see making a Guy Fawkes type of holiday out of 9-11, but only after the war crimes trials.

[patrice]

17. K&R Truth is not the highest priority on DU anymore.Propaganda supporting political objectives is.

Freedom doesn't matter as much as which political clique you belong to.

[ixion]

23. yep, I would agree

unfortunately.

[jannyk]

34. ++++1

[pampango]

39. Well said. It almost seems like "facts-be=-damned" religious beliefs at times. n/t

[patrice]

64. Same or similar personality/cognitive types who only HAPPEN to be wearing different labels. nt

[Cleita]

18. I miss those old DUers and the discussions we had back

then too.

[ixion]

50. me, too...

:toast:

[SusanaMontana41]

19. Nice post. Your sadness is shared. nt

[ixion]

66. thanks, SusanaMontana41

good to know I'm not the only one. :toast:

[SecularMotion]

20. Right wing talking points stuck out like a sore thumb

now DU is saturated with them.

Sadly. I think it will take another disastrous republican administration for DU to experience a revival.

[leftstreet]

31. The only thing that can save DU is President Jeb Bush n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

44. Oh I think DU's fortunes will rise during the first term of

President Mitt Romney :)

[virgogal]

21. You mentioned that it's odd how things change. They ALWAYS

change,sometimes for the better,sometimes for the worse.

I wish you well looking for someplace else to go where you will feel more comfortable.

I'm too new to remember "the good old days",but DU seems just fine to me.

[ixion]

22. ...

I didn't say I was leaving.

[virgogal]

27. No you didn't,but when you mentioned your home moving off

in the distance I assumed you were going to search for a new home.

Sorry.

[ixion]

29. I was speaking metaphorically

no problem.

[sabrina 1]

56. I think the OP was talking about how Democratic principles

were upheld back then. They were, I remember.

[ixion]

67. Yep, they were

these days, not so much.

[12AngryBorneoWildmen]

119. I'm With YOU. nt

[Zorra]

24. I totally and sincerely understand what you are saying and feel your pain. nt

[Donnachaidh]

26. "Gore Vidal: Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Agree 100% -- k&r!

[ixion]

28. Gore Vidal was one of the good guys

I miss him.

[Donnachaidh]

30. me too -- he spoke truth.

That's becoming a rare gift today.

[BuelahWitch]

38. 'Scuse me, he's not dead...maybe not out and about as much

he is almost 86, but he's not dead.
However I do agree with your thread...

[ixion]

40. that was my bad

still, we don't see him around much anymore.

[coalition_unwilling]

45. Vidal (bless his soul) borrowed the line from 18th-century British

critic Samuel Johnson.

Johnson and Vidal seem to share a similar caustic mentality towards power and the powerful.

[JI7]

32. can you link to those "USA USA" threads ?

[rug]

33. Pick one at randon from May 2.

[ixion]

35. .

welcome to my ignore list.

[Ohio Joe]

46. I don't see any either

Strange how the OP ignores you instead of backing up the bullshit.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JI7]

76. the poster says we got wrapped up in boogie men and fear over the love

and you have a problem with that and call that nationalism ?

you have a problem with where were you threads ?

[gateley]

84. To be fair to that DUer, the OP was commenting on the

PEOPLE coming together to help one another, and went on to say it was replaced by fear and mistrust soon enough.

Nowhere was there a God Bless American ring to it -- just acknowledgment of the good in our fellow Americans at a time in history.

That's all. :shrug:

I honestly don't think many here have stars in their eyes about the state of our country. We're all furious and heartbroken and pretty much see it as it is.

I don't see the jingoism as you do, but maybe you're more attuned to it than I.

[joshcryer]

82. Seconded.

I searched three pages, don't see them.

[Exultant Democracy]

41. The patriots day party is off putting, at least we have people expressing that here too.

DU is not a monolith.

[Beam Me Up]

42. I'm with ya.

[AsahinaKimi]

47. Thank you

For saying this.

[ixion]

52. sure thing.

I'm glad you agree! I debated on whether or not to post it, because I didn't want to start a flame war. I'm very happy to see it hasn't turned into that. :)

[AsahinaKimi]

53. I was on here I think during that time..

If I was not posting I was sure reading DU.. It took me a long, long time to have the courage to come on to DU and post things. I think I have become stronger because of it.

[ixion]

58. I'm glad you did

I was very nervous when I first started posting on DU. Over the years, I've become more bold. I'm not afraid to say what's on my mind anymore.

[bananas]

75. I like your posts.

I'm glad you started posting here.

[AsahinaKimi]

136. thank you!

very much! ^^

[bvar22]

48. Still Here.

The difference is that a "Democrat" is in the White House,
and too many put Party over Principle,
or are too young to remember what being a "Democrat" used to mean.


---bvar22
a Mainstream Center Pro-Working Class FDR/LBJ Democrat,
now labeled a Fringe Leftist.
I haven't changed.


Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ixion]

49. glad you are!

I'm happy that there are so many names I still recognize here. :)

[bvar22]

54. Back at ya!

:toast:

[EFerrari]

55. I don't think you're at all alone in this.

[ixion]

110. Thanks, EFerrari

good to know! :toast:

[Dragonfli]

57. K&R I started reading here then, if only for a glimpse of a sane world

It took me another two years to actually join as I never intended to post (had my fill early on with AOL).

I finally realized that it was safe for a simple carpenter to add to the conversation without being set upon by right wing 'net trolls.
At first my contributions were my art in the form of graphics as gifts to the posters I admired or commentary in their own right.

I have been feeling lately that the AOL trolls of old have finally infiltrated here under the guise of post partisan Democrats and I will soon likely retire from posting and go back to lurking.

It is not fear of the right wing that leads me to wish to post less and argue less with them, but rather my temper which is seldom in check now especially since my illnesses are causing more pain and less energy.

It is hard to be civil when you know you are dying, when you know you can't even afford to fight the illness or get extended help for even that 30% chance at survival.

The right wing policies of those that are so war proud and flag waving are the very reason I have so little hope, it is so sad that they are in such abundance here these days.

I too miss the old days and the old prevalent views that I happen to share.

[tammywammy]

59. Since I've been on DU I have always seen the longing for "the good ol' days" of DU

BTW, I don't see any "rah rah USA!" threads today. What I do see is one "where were you?" a couple specifically about the memorial and a lot of "9/11 is all propaganda!!!!"

[ixion]

61. the "where were you" threads

are a form of distraction meant to invoke a feeling of nationalism, ergo a rah rah thread, albeit subtle.

[nobodyspecial]

74. No it's not

People who undergo grief and trauma may find it helpful to share their experience.

[defendandprotect]

99. Exactly --- what we need is investigation of 9/11 -- WTC/ASBESTOS ... White Elephants ...

coupled with a MIC deal to attack in the ME to control oil --

[Number23]

70. The OP has already put some people on ignore who dared to make that same point

For the record, I haven't seen a single "USA USA" post either.

[ixion]

79. no, I put them on my ignore because

I'm tired of mean-spirited snark and insults. I'm done wasting my time trying to engage that sort of tactic in a debate.

[Number23]

89. All they did was simply ask you what posts you were specifically referring to

That hardly qualifies as "insults." And as more than one person in this thread has made the same point/asked the same question, it's obviously a legitimate one.

[ixion]

104. well, first off, I don't need your permission to ignore someone

secondly, it wasn't an innocent question, it was flame bait, much as yours is, as evidenced by the result of my responding to the aforementioned posts. I'm done with flame bait. Done. Over it. Moving forward. Welcome to my ignore list.

[snooper2]

117. ROFL, you sure told them

:rofl:

[Number23]

144. "Welcome to my ignore list." Nicest words you've said all day

If all it takes is "what OPs are you referring to" to cause all of this screeching and angst, I suggest you step away from the computer and get some rest. Do yourself (and the rest of us) that small favor.

[QC]

60. I was here on that day as well.

The place has certainly changed, hasn't it?

We did squabble a bit back then, of course, but I never thought I would see the deliberate cruelty, or the right wing ideology, that have since become a part of the landscape here.

Oh well, they say you can't go home again.

[ixion]

65. Yep, I guess not.

As DU continues to grow, it'll continue to change. c'est la vie I guess. :/

[City Lights]

68. K&R. eom

[marmar]

69. Yep. My hand is sore from switching channels on the remote.....

...... from every sporting event and program with the incessant 911911911911 drone - all of it the strident manufactured mourning, and 'day that changed everything' bullshit I couldn't stand then or now.

[UpInArms]

71. got room at your table for another?

:beer:

[ixion]

78. always

:toast:

[LibDemAlways]

72. I'm with you. I tuned into the Ravens game today only to

witness the unfurling of an American flag that covered the entire field. Overkill much?

On that day the media never asked "Why?" That question still has not been addressed. 911 still has not been properly investigated. Instead we're supposed to give up our freedoms without a whimper and sing God Bless America. Uh, no thanks.

[readmoreoften]

73. The fact that the Democratic Party has taken the Republican Party's 1987 platform

hasn't helped the jingoism on DU either.

[Lorien]

88. Yep, and pieces of the 2000 and 2004 platforms, too. nt

[alarimer]

77. Because all those things are being done by a Democrat now, so it's okay.

The wars, the extraordinary rendition, the secrecy.

[KoKo]

80. You are not alone...and there are still many legacy DU'ers who aren't dead who lurk

and find it surprising and disappointing. Yeah...I know what you say...:-(

[ixion]

83. glad you're still around, KoKo!

:toast:

[Duncan Grant]

85. K&R

:kick:

[Major Hogwash]

86. There's steam coming off of that pile of shit you wrote here.

There's no one "cheering" on that event here.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeSwiss]

90. Everything changes.....

...everything cycles around and around. It's Nature. It never stops.

- I hear ya......

K&R




What's the point of history, if we pay no attention to its lessons????

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4857821/Tsunami-hit-towns-forgot-warnings-from-ancestors">






http://vimeo.com/10584463">Nature by Numbers ~Cristobal Vila

[ixion]

111. exactly...

I always appreciate your posts, DeSwiss! :toast:

[gtar100]

91. Uh...support the very event? USA, USA, USA? Sorry, I'm not seeing it.

Plenty of insight and critical thinking going on here at DU. A whole lot more diversity than when it first started but the fire hasn't died out, not by a long shot.

[JCMach1]

92. +++

[Waiting For Everyman]

93. America is not the people who run it at the moment, or the policies at the moment.

It is bigger than that, apparently you don't get it. I'm never going to be bitter enough to hate my country just to fit in with a peer group, here or anywhere.

I do truly hate the course we are on and the people's actions who sold us out, but I can do that without confusing that with hating what I'm fighting for. I don't feel much in common with any of the "sides" these days. But that's ok with me, if that's how it has to be.

I don't want to be a "citizen of the world". That is utter hogwash. You can call me jingoistic and I'll simply that take that as a compliment, and consider the source. Have a nice day.

[glowing]

94. I think that we have to remember that 10 yrs has passed.

Some of our newer posters are younger. They were children when 9/11 happened and have been sufficiently propagandized with the events for the last 10yrs. We have also accumulated more than a few independents and former Republicans because the Republican party has become so crazy with their strange marriage of stupid + religious fervor. I would say 10 yrs ago when DU first appeared, it was "underground" for a reason. It was like dangerous in this country to have a different opinion about war and 9/11 and disagreements with the Bush admin. People who did have different opinions, war protestors here and around the world, thoughts on investigating the events of 9/11 and what happened to our air space (which just doesn't happen) were silenced by media and by a general tone that it would be dangerous to one's life and livelihood to share opposite opinions aloud.

But 9/11 and differing opinions than the "official government lie" have always been sent to the dungeon even on DU. People are still a bit more reserved about discussing the event and what they do or don't believe from the events of that day. I work at a hotel. For the most part, most people who opinionated on anything in regards to 9/11 or politics is on the skeptical side of anything official with 9/11 and even the death of Osama bin Ladin. So many lies; no one knows what to believe is the truth. The one overwhelming theme is that politicians are blood sucking, bought and paid for fools. They are harming this country more than any terrorist could possibly think. They are waisting money on wars that don't actually protect us and refuse to pay for things in this country that citizens actually need.. like roads, bridges, schools etc.. People just can't understand why the Govt can't just start hiring people directly and put them to work doing the things we need to do to improve America. Not sure what will happen in our future... Congress has a 12% approval rating. That's really not good. Even President Obama is dithering below 40%. Many people voted for him because they thought he would be the anti-Bush and restore some sanity and fairness to the system. They never expected a continuation of bad policies from any Democrat.

[scheming daemons]

95. What site are you reading today? I've seen nothing but threads that share your viewpoint

Where in the hell are you reading jingoistic threads on DU?


Sure as hell not in GD or GD: P.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

97. This is just another counter-factural rant

...by an OP without much grip on reality. There is no such jingoistic thread, much less dozens of them as the OP imagines.

Funny thing is this: I was on the D.U. in the early days too - before it became a megaphone for non-stop bashing of Democrats by greens, naderites, and leftist haters of the Democratic party. It was far more pleasant, because we talked about the terrible things the GOP was doing to the country, not nutcase conspiracy theories and counter factual bashing of Democrats.

Now look at it.

I will say I'm still quite proud that as a community, individual DUers still rise to the occasion to help others in need. But the constant posts filled with petulance, hatred, and quite frankly, willful disregard for fact, has removed all aspect of refuge from it. At least for Democrats.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[EFerrari]

100. "posts filled with petulance, hatred, and quite frankly, willful disregard for fact"

There goes another irony meter.

[Shining Jack]

102. +1

My irony meter exploded after reading the subject line of post 86. :)

[ixion]

106. yep... for sure.

right off the scale.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

133. Your post is a prime example of what the D.U. has become...

Instead of pointing out all the "9/11 jingoism" on the D.U. that I missed, thereby embarrassing me with facts, you post a picture that is nothing other than a thinly veiled personal attack which shows your inability to argue your point.

This attracts two ditto-brain responses, as if "+1" says anything at all, which it doesn't.

This is the teabagger mentality, teabagger tactics. You're not even lying. You actually believe all the stuff you just made up.

There is no 9/11 jingoism on the D.U., period. And the fact that you are apparently unable to recognize basic facts makes you entirely ineffective politically, just some anonymous, ignored, internet ranter.

Now here's my question - do you like being ignored and ineffective? If not, I'd suggest you actually show up to some political organization and learn how to change that. There are certainly plenty of liberal ones to choose from - liberal even in relation to the Democratic universe. Go to DFA, for instance, Howard Dean's old group.

Because I'm telling you right now: all the time you spent linking to some image does nothing.


- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[EFerrari]

138. I held a mirror up to nature.

:)

[Number23]

145. +1000 the fact that the OP has been REPEATEDLY asked what posts he's referring to

says it all. And the fact that he answers every single request with "I'M PUTTING YOU ON IGNORE!one!' says even more.

Really, considering this is a really blatant call-out thread -- in addition to being uninformative and counter-factual -- I'm surprised it wasn't locked.

[defendandprotect]

96. KR -- many liberals are moving on -- Obama will also create financial repercussions for Dem Party ..

and probably for fund raising for the party here at DU -- ????

[ixion]

107. maybe so...

it gets harder and harder for me to justify donating every year.

[sce56]

101. Yep this place has evolved!

Some good some bad! If you question the Obama Admin for bowing to the GOP your not a team player. If you question the US support of Israeli genocide and war crimes against Palestinians you get attacked by AIPC Hacks! And if you question the Official Conspiracy Theory of 9-11 you get sent to the dungeon. And yes the story told on the M$M is a theory not one of the people involved has seen a day in court other than Moussaoui who did not actually take part and the FBI high up officials who prevented a full investigation into him including the stopping of search warrants on his computer, The person that did that was promoted after 9-11.
One of the worse decisions here was the Un Rec feature if it would give a tally of all the recs up and down I might agree with it but whenever a post about something happens like a anti nuke post it takes awhile for it to get the recs since the paid shills logon and start un-recing the post.

I hope I can hurry up and sail away hopefully this winter then they wont be able to piss me off here anymore.

[peace frog]

103. Devolved

[ixion]

105. Indeed.

[LeftishBrit]

141. Yikes.

I don't know what sites you use, but they seem pretty dodgy. (1) While I agree that Israel's policies toward the Palestinians are bad and oppressive, they are not 'genocide' unless you regard all war as genocide. The Palestinian population is increasing rather than the reverse. (2) And the 'truther' theories about 9-11 *deserve* to be marginalized. If by 'Official Conspiracy Theory' you mean the implication that Saddam had something to do with it and that the Bushie 'war on terror' is justified, then you're right to condemn it, but hardly anyone on DU holds it. If you mean anything that is against the view that it was an 'inside job', then I think you are quite wrong. (3) Who on earth pays 'shills' to unrec threads on DU? Sounds like a cushy job if one can get it!!!

[Philosoraptor]

108. The one thing we should all be discussing is verboten

And to speak of it brands one as insane.

[ixion]

109. I know, right?

The mind boggles. :crazy:

[blackspade]

113. Yes, DU has been infiltrated by our own version of the teabaggers.

Apparently it is the 'third way' or the highway these days.

[urgk]

114. Is it the majority or a vocal minority?

I'd like to see some numbers...some kind of statistical evidence either way. I mean, if I'm self-selecting based on threads or forums, I could (and I mean "could") have a vastly different DU experience than somebody with different tastes and interests.

(just to be clear, I'm *not* saying the OP is definitively wrong. I'm just incredibly interested whether he/she's right)

[Harmony Blue]

115. So true

I think that the MSM has done an efficient job of ingraining this into most Americans with a constant barrage of nationalistic propaganda.

[ProfessorGAC]

118. I Don't Agree With Your Assessment At All

I've seen some of it. But, in reading the preponderance of the posts within those threads, the sampling sure doesn't indicate a 180.

I think you're overreacting.
GAC

[AshevilleKate]

120. Don't give up yet

I can appreciate your words even though I am brand new to this whole DU. I wish I had found it way back when, but hell, I did not even have a laptop or access then.

Keep hanging in, though, and you will find that some new joiners still share your verve and can regenerate some of your lost love for DU.

(Not that it is anyone's business but mine, but I decided to contribute from the 1st day, meager though it has to be for now, because I have found a place that can use even a small pittance if it means having a say.)

Peace out!

[Javaman]

121. 9/11 is the new corporate retail holiday.

Making money off the dead is their business.

we, as a nation, have willfully gone along with the corporate propaganda.

god forbid, we as a people, should be allowed to morn and heal.

we are a sad nation.

[RegieRocker]

122. K&R

[OwnedByFerrets]

123. K and R

[swilton]

125. Three thousand lives lost in the twin towers/Pentagon +

is a fraction of the lives lost (US military and innocent civilians in the countries occupied by the US) due to US Imperialism which has been on steroids since 9-11.

[cpwm17]

140. Ain't that the truth

But the US has been slaughtering Arabs and others throughout our history. People don't really realize the extent. That is why 9-11 happened in the first place - as revenge. As if more war is the answer.

[L0oniX]

126. Patriotic fools have infiltrated DU. See descriptions below...

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in ev’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patrioism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.


3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

[Hell Hath No Fury]

127. Where was I on 9/11?

On DU. Getting updates, support, and a lot of Truth.

DU is not the place it was back then. And it is worse for it. :(

[Generic Other]

142. I was there too

We didn't all agree on every point, but we were united in our belief that the official story was fishy.

[catbyte]

129. I've been here for years and there's still lots of us disgusted

by the politicization of 9/11. I knew right after the towers fell that Bush would do something stupid, destructive, and seriously fucked up. I wasn't disappointed. I knew right from the start they viewed it as a huge opportunity to plow their evil agenda forward because Bush would have been a 1-termer if 9/11 hadn't happened. I can't go all the way to MIHOP, but I'm firmly in the LIHOP camp.

Diane
Anishinaabe in MI

[xiamiam]

130. thanks for saying this..i commemorated by watching a few conspiracy clips

on you tube. I dont watch tv any longer so i am out of the media mesmerizing and rewriting history loop.
During much of the Bush administration Du was the only place to get information as there was a virtual blackout on criticism of policies or performance by the media, we were united and fierce here. Now, it seems that many are just content to go along with the bs.

[sufrommich]

131. This whole thread reads like a Junior High click complete

with sneers for the newbies and derision for anybody who doesn't fit to form.It says a lot about DU that it's allowed to stand, none of it good.

[EFerrari]

132. That's a one sided evaluation and btw, the word is "clique". n/t

[katty]

134. yeah bush 2000 appointment and 9-11 brought me to DU

and then all of the insane events that followed them...DU has become rather conservative.

[spooked911]

135. I came here for the 9/11 research, which used to be outstanding

Then I got hooked in the runup to the 2004 election, and then all the evidence of a stolen election, which was verboten at so many other sites.

Now, anything that hints of a conspiracy gets shoveled away to the 9/11 dungeon, and that place has been over-run by vehement anti-conspiracists.

[SixthSense]

137. I too had a problem getting away from the jingoism

even actively trying to avoid it I couldn't get away from it

the only things I care to hear about 9/11 are truths which have been ignored or covered up

[valerief]

139. The jingoists probably aren' t real people, but employees doing their jobs. nt