When are we going to forgive??

[ThomThom]

It has been 10 years today since that horrible event that changed everything or so it is said. When are we going to forgive? All we have done is use it to create more unrest around the world with our imperialism and militarism. We have given up our rights and values because of fear of terrorism, those values that terrorists hate us for or so they say. It is time to do the real Christian thing and forgive. It is time to do what Jesus would do and reach out a helping hand to a world in need. This is the only way to get back the respect of the world that our leaders have squandered. We have thrown away good money that could have been used for positive things on our fear that a handful of fanatics will attack us.

We are no safer for having kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people with our smart bombs and hired mercenaries. We completely destroyed a country that had no part in the events of 9-11. Our military has been asked to commit unthinkable cruelties that they will carry the rest of their days. We have let our brave soldiers be killed and maimed because we are afraid. Afraid of what? Afraid of who? Our government has lied to us and spent our precious wealth to make us safe and in the end we are less safe, more fearful and our economy is in ruin. Today we are on watch for another tragic event because we are even more hated around the world. We have allowed our unrealistic fears to spread and still we go on not forgetting that horrible day. It is time to forgive the people that would do those horrible things that happened on 9-11-2001. Please let us make peace with ourselves and the rest of the world as we remember those of us that were lost so needlessly.

[RebelOne]

1. Great post!!! n/t

[roguevalley]

28. it is the mark of a soul to forgive. sometimes you can't because

what happened to you is so hard. But forgiveness is one of the things we are alive to learn. I pity people who can't.

[grasswire]

2. somebody unrecced this already

No doubt an owner of Halliburton stock.

[whopis01]

35. Or perhaps they were just not a christian

and didn't like being told to do "the real Christian thing" or told to do "what Jesus would do"

[cali]

3. Although I agree that the wars have been counterproductive

I feel no need to forgive those who perpetrated 9/11- any more than I feel a need to forgive bushco.

Furthermore, anyone who knows fucking anything whatsofuckingever about Afghanistan knows we didn't destroy it.

Damn, I get sick of the pious cant that gets spewed here.

Oh, and can the Christian crap and the WWJD junk.

[sabrina 1]

7. And those who perpetrated the crime of 9/11 felt exactly

as you do. They would not forgive the US for their actions against them. And now, we have created millions more people who have every reason to not to forgive us again. Any Iraqi or Afghan or Pakistani, or Yemen civilian who lost a child or husband or wife, mother or father, and there are hundreds of thousands of them, let's hope THEY can forgive. And those innocents, including women and children who were tortured and held for years away from their homes and families, that we know now for certain were guilty only of being Muslim in their own countries. I hope they too can forgive us.

This attitude that we are the only people whose lives are valuable, is pretty sickening to me frankly. Maybe if would stop killing people in their own countries there would be no unforgiving, vengeful attacks on ours, then our unforgiving, vengeful attacks on them, and back to the beginning again.

But there sure are an awful lot of people now who I hope do not share your unforgiving attitude, innocent people, minding their own business in their own countries until we decided to drop our WMDs on them and their loved ones.

And each day with our cowardly drones, we are killing more of them. They have demonstrated peacefully, asking us to stop killing their children. To no avail. We do not even do 'body counts'. They are not human to us.

Have you ever seen the photos of the children we have killed? I think we should have a day where all Americans should be shown what was done in the name of the victims of 9/11. So many have no idea how many innocents have died in the name of those victims.

I think we got our revenge, in spades!

[cali]

11. hello? did you even read my post?

It doesn't take a world class philosopher to understand that not forgiving in not synonymous with exacting revenge. duh.

I specifically stated that I think the wars were terrible. And I've only said that a few thousand times here- as you know perfectly well, dear.

I don't ask that anyone forgive, simply that they not seek vengeance.

And I suppose loving little you forgives Cheney and bushco?

You make me laugh with your self-righteous crap.

[sabrina 1]

13. 'Self righteous crap'?

Coming from you? :rofl:

[ThomThom]

14. thank you

a response is now not needed from me, thanks to you
I totally agree.

[cali]

16. totally agree with what? Why is forgiveness necessary?

as I said, it doesn't take a philosopher to know that not forgiving is not synonymous with vengeance or hate. I don't need to forgive to be against the wars- and I was ALWAYS against them- or exacting any kind of revenge.

this is basic critical thinking. And I mean basic.

[roguevalley]

30. because forgiveness HELPS YOU. You don't have to accomplish

it with every thing. but if you do, it gets a rock off your back. It isn't claptrap. Its release and relief. You see it when someone asks a court not to give the death penalty to someone who killed their family member. That is grace. Those people are in a state of grace and they are lessons for us all. I want to be with those people.

[cali]

46. forgiveness is a personal thing- not an impersonal one.

and it's the height of claptrap to talk about forgiveness in this context- it's akin to saying one should forgive a tsunami. Oh and one can accept events and be at peace with them without this phony forgiveness.

I have a reading recommendation for you: E.M. Forster's essay on tolerance. It's one of the greatest essays ever penned on this subject.

[ThomThom]

44. I was responding to post #7 not yours #11

I totally agree with what Sabrina said.
Forgiveness is necessary to me because this country in general is still hung-up on to the events of 9-11 and I think it is time to move on. Bush and the other criminals will never see justice and all this reliving the day is counter productive in my opinion. Forgiveness is always a good thing. Carrying around negative baggage is not good for a person.

on edit
sorry for the delay in responding just got online, it was a long day & and I don't work at a computer during the day

[sabrina 1]

17. You're welcome!

:-)

[Mimosa]

26. Sabrina, thank you for saying it better than I could. n/t

[roguevalley]

29. forget the religion for a moment. forgiveness is about an individual

and their soul. It isn't about anything else. Your bitterness is harmful to you. As for Afghanistan, we did. We broke what was left. The people living there that had their lives destroyed by US would disagree with you. But then, you might tell us what you know first hand about Afghanistan and its current condition before making a statement like that. We did destroy it. We own that.

It isn't pious cant. It isn't about religion. Its about truth. As for forgiveness, it heals the soul. You might try it if you can. Letting go of shit is good for everyone.

As far as 911 goes ... it hurt us all but if you didn't lose a loved one or friend, if you didn't live in New York when it happened and saw, smelled, touched and felt it, STFU. I am SICK of people bitching about 911 as if their grandma jumped from the 106th floor. Sucking up someone else's misery like it was yours to own pisses me off.

If you don't think so, who remembers Oklahoma City?

[cali]

48. you're confused. I'm not bitter. I don't hate. I accept. That's different from foregiveness.

I've forgiven things in my life that I don't think most people could- an ex-husband who beat on me, an abusive parent. I think I know a bit about forgiveness- real forgiveness, not the phony baloney crap being preached here.

And you might grab a clue: I am not even remotely one of those who sucks up someone else's misery re 9/11. I do suggest you read the op I posted yesterday about it. On the other hand, I won't judge those who feel real pain over what happened unlike YOU.

You don't have a clue. Sad really how many people here have zippo ability to engage in critical thinking.

One more time- and try thinking about it: Not forgiving in this context is not the same as wishing for vengeance or being bitter. It doesn't in any way preclude acceptance. Real forgiveness isn't some impersonal thing.

[wizstars]

4. I will NEVER forgive George W. Bush or Richard B. Cheney

or Karl W. Rove
or Donald Rumsfeld or Colin Powell or Condleeza Rice
or Richard Perle or Douglas Feith or John As?croft
or Rush Limbaugh...

I may burn in Hell with them for eternity, but I will NEVER forgive them.

[roguevalley]

31. you don't have to if you can't. but it makes life easier if you can.

I would suggest those in your actual life and not these scumbags. Ignoring them forever is the best way I cope with them. Forgiving people around me is easier and I feel lighter when I do.

[HockeyMom]

5. Hatred

We cannot meet hatred with more hatred. I hear so many people even today consumed with hatred towards all Arab and Muslim people. If we become consumeed with hatred, as BinLaden and those hijackers were, we become no better than them. It is a very short road from that to hatred for ANYONE who is not the same as we are. We are seeing this today.

[ThomThom]

15. true

so true
hatred is all consuming
more Zen would be good

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. well said!!

[Brigid]

8. Forgive?

All of the hijackers died that day. Bin Laden is dead too. Time to move on.

Now, if you are talking about forgiving that criminal enterprise known as the Bush regime, that is an entirely different matter.

[Tejas]

19. You blame 9/11 on only 20 people?

So, you would forgive the financiers of 9/11 and everyone else associated with the operation? Try selling that at the Ground Zero ceremonies.

[msanthrope]

9. Was someone responsible asking for forgiveness? Let me know when they do. nt

[aikoaiko]

10. I don;t care about forgiveness. I'd just like us to get out of Iraq and Afg. ASAP.

[cali]

12. exactly.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

18. They don't want to be forgiven

Seriously, give me a break. People read naive shit like this and laugh.

I don't believe in forgiving someone who'd do it again in a heartbeat if they thought you'd moved on and forgotten.

I just want to get out from overseas and stop wasting money over there. I really don't give a fuck what happens to them. Let them drown in their own muck. They've destroyed our economy and are laughing at us as we speak. Fuck them and forgiveness.

Why don't you go address some Islamic extremists with your concerns and see what they say?

[sabrina 1]

20. They didn't destroy our economy. Bush and his neocon pals

did that. And as far as 'addressing some extremists' I think we've killed them all and along with them, probably one hundred or more innocent civilians for each one that actually even knew why we were there.

According to studies done in Afghanistan, over 90% of the people there do not know why we are there and never heard of 9/11.

We are the extremists to a majority of people in the world right now. We are now viewed as the biggest threat to world peace by a majority of around the globe. Since we started two wars in response to the attack on 9/11 and killed hundreds of thousands of people, almost none of whom had anything to do with it, I guess the word 'extremist' could apply to us.

I agree we need to get of their countries and stop bombing and killing their civilians. But we have military bases all over the place, so I doubt that's going to happen. Especially since 9/11 was only an excuse for the wars.

[Brigid]

21. Too bad we can't recommend individual posts.

:thumbsup:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

24. They sucked us in to destroying the economy.....

....they knew what the damn neo-cons would do. It's on their heads as well. Two well-oiled machines of hate feeding one another.

Sad that people who stone women to death for sport are not really viewed as extremists by you, though. Oh, well.

[roguevalley]

32. it is easy to lump people together. it keeps us stirred up at all

muslims. I would err on the side of forgiving those I can. Ignoring the rest is the best I can do. I refuse to hate like they do and call it justified. It would make me no better than them. You may call that naive. I don't. I prefer to carry only that load that I can. The rest has to go.

[sabrina 1]

34. And equally sad that people do not read what is written.

Saying that there are people around the globe who view us, who started two barbaric wars, tortured men women and children and who still are the only civilized country that used the death penalty, who view US as extremists, isn't the same as saying that those who are responsible for terror acts are not extremists. In fact I did not say that at all.

[w0nderer]

40. that's why the world doesn't forgive America for things anymore

:I don't believe in forgiving someone who'd do it again in a heartbeat if they thought you'd moved on and forgotten.

snap..i guess that's what they call irony

[Raine]

22. Isn't forgiveness an individual thing, how can you forgive

for a wrong that someone else suffered and they are not at the point of forgiveness yet. :shrug: I didn't lose anyone 9/11 so it's not up to me to forgive or not forgive anyone. The wrong I have felt is what Bush/Cheney did after 9/11 taking away my civil liberties and I will never forgive them for that. For one thing they have never said they were sorry plus the assualt still goes on. :mad:

Edit: typo

[backscatter712]

23. I'll never forgive the Bushies!!! n/t

[bluestateguy]

25. OK, but the door swings both ways

You ask fair questions, but I would bet you that DUers would not be in any mood to forgive the Bush Administration and Wall Street for all of the damage they did to this nation and the world.

[sabrina 1]

27. If they were held accountable under the rule of law, I would

feel satisfied that justice was done and forgiveness would be a lot easier. I think the reason people are still angry with them is because not only have they not been held accountable, they are treated like royalty here and thumb their noses at those who try to hold them accountable. They boast about their crimes openly on TV, taunting those who believe in the US Constitution. So, bring them to justice, prosecute and try them and convict them if they are guilty and a lot of the anger will go away.

As for the criminals of 9/11, if the official story is true, they are all dead. It's much easier to forgive those who have paid for their crimes than those who have not.

[roguevalley]

33. agreed. After an accounting, forgiveness would be something to

consider.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. When I've forgotten about the people who came to work in an elevator & left by jumping out a window

that's when.



Seriously, the people who did it are dead. But the action was inexcusable, and nothing will ever change that. Forgiveness? What does that mean in real-world terms? I don't think we should be in Afghanistan anymore, and we never should have been in Iraq. We should move on, if evidence comes up linking further people to the 9-11 attacks they should be dealt with, but it never should have been a justification for wholesale attacks on people who didn't have anything to do with it.

On 9-12-01 I wasn't remotely interested in 'forgiveness' on it, and I also wasn't interested in retribution against people who weren't involved.

10 years later, I still feel exactly the same way.

[ibegurpard]

37. when I know WHO to forgive

[uppityperson]

38. While I agree with your 2nd paragraph, I unrec'd for the 1st and "forgive" part

Forgive those who were part of this horrible event? What? Forgive them for murdering so many? Why?

Forgive bush/cheney for their part of this horrible event and all the horror they did afterwards because of it? What? Why?

Same as forgetting, no I do not forgive any of them for doing what they did. However, I will not use this event to continue to do nasty things here and around the world. That has NOTHING to do with forgiving those who were involved.

[Zax2me]

39. Afraid of what you ask?

Well, religious whack jobs flying civilian planes into civilian buildings, for starters.
It's not a math problem.

[alterfurz]

41. "When will our consciences grow so tender...

...that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?" -- Eleanor Roosevelt

[kctim]

42. Never.

[dickthegrouch]

43. After the perps have spent their required 3000 years in Jail /nt

[Bucky]

45. When are we going to forgive the Confederacy for slavery? Or forgive Jeb for Florida in 2000?

On the other hand, I guess I'm ready to forgive Japan for Pearl Harbor... so I guess there's still hope.

[Skidmore]

47. History is the narrative of wars and reprisals.

Since we are human and "tribal" by virtue of an overriding nationalistic definition of culture, then we will continue to do what all peoples have done--seek resources and wealth using aggression, be vengeful when aggression is directed toward us, and rewrite history to gloss over our actions.

I have come to the conclusion that the species of homo sapien is incapable of achieving total peace. As for brave soldiers being killed, we will have to be willing to literally declare a war and have people everywhere refuse to pick up arms. I doubt that will happen anytime soon.