Is patriotism any better than racism or sexism?

[white_wolf]

Obviously most people agrees that it is foolish and wrong to think your race is better than other races or you sex is better than the opposite sex, so why then do we not feel the same way about the belief that your country is better because you were born into it? Patriotism and nationalism isn't any more logical than sexism or racism and likely has caused just as many problems. This foolish pride in country and nation has caused countless deaths over the years. I think Einstein said it best in these two quotes: "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." and:

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

[Lucian]

1. I don't think it is.

And I agree with everything you said there, including Einstein's quotes.

:thumbsup:

[DesertFlower]

2. i agree. nt

[Arctic Dave]

3. K&R

[dtexdem]

4. In theory, yes -- celebrating one's own group, including polity, is fine.

In practice, very often no -- no better.

[white_wolf]

8. I disagree with your reasoning here.

Simply because it sounds like the same reasoning I've heard some racists use. They'll say stuff like "I'm not anti-black, I'm just proud of my white heritage." I'm not saying your racist or anything at all, I'm just saying the logic you are using to justify patriotism in theory, seems to be the same as the logic used to justify racism in theory.

[ZombieHorde]

26. Many people, who are not racists, do celebrate their particular, white heritage.

I have seen people from the ethnicities Irish and German celebrate their heritage without the air of racism.

Just because some racist people make that claim, does not mean that claim is always coupled with racism.

[Bucky]

5. No. Liking yourself is just as bad as disliking others. Pride is a sin. Self respect undermines God.

Essentially, love of country is anti-family. This is why Pat Robertson keeps on rooting for God to punish America with hurricanes and earthquakes. He's trying to protect his family.

[pintobean]

6. I'm patriotic. I love my country

with all her faults. I really don't care who approves or disapproves of me for that.
I've served her because she serves me. I'm proud to be friends with people who have traveled the globe and risked their lives for me. I'm proud of those who have given their lives for freedom.

I enjoy my freedom. Do you?

[white_wolf]

9. Ehh we aren't any more free than a lot of countries and less free than some.

I'd enjoy my freedom just as much in Sweden, Norway, German, etc and I wouldn't have to worry about the Patriot Act or not having healthcare.

[pintobean]

12. Those countries have patriots as well.

Rightfully so. It's a good thing for them they're not being forced to salute a swastika or the hammer and sickle.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. I distinguish patriotism from jingoism

Patriotism is, "I think my country has many good qualities, and I like living here. Maybe I would even fight for it if it if foreign troops invaded it."

Jingoism is, "We're No. 1! We're No. 1! And we'll bomb the hell out of anyone who disagrees!"

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[white_wolf]

11. What a compelling argument. Patriotism is nothing more than a friendlier version of nationalism

Nice with the insults, which of course means you are incapable of actually debating so why don't you grow up and quit acting so immature. Oh and I guess Einstein is a "dipshit" as well, huh? You really are ignorant.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adhd_what_huh]

18. Nationalism gave us Fascism where Patriotism ending the civil war

blind obedience is not the same as a thoughtful expression of community and duty.

[cali]

15. Actually, a very patriotic man who was killed by the Nazis

once said that Nationalism is a state of mind in which a man hates other countries more than he loves his own. His name was Fredrick Reck-Malleczwen and he penned the unforgettable "Diary of a Man in Despair". Oh, and Orwell also distinguished between patriotism and nationalism. I am not a particularly patriotic sort but I don't think patriotism precludes standing against one's country when you believe it's wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Reck-Malleczewen

[seabeyond]

13. why are you defining patriotism as thinking you are better than those in another country?

i think the basis to the question is wrong. i dont think patriotism is defined as thinking better.

"devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty. "

i dont see "better"

[white_wolf]

19. George Bernad Shaw said:

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it."

[Bluenorthwest]

21. But this is not what the dictionary says.

Shaw dealt in wordplay. He also said (among many other things)
"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." He would not have claimed this was an actual definition of Democracy, but an epithet designed to make a point about Democracy. To put it more bluntly, they are jokes with a point. Not working definitions of the words.
"I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." GB Shaw

[seabeyond]

24. still not the definition. he spoke a belief/opinion. shruggin... nt

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Patriotism does not mean thinking your country is superior to

others, it means having fondness for it because it is your own. Wholly different thing. The status of other nations has nothing to do with it.
Patriotism is not the same as nationalism. Nationalism differs from patriotism in that it does involve putting one nation over others, and is measured in loyalty to the national government.
There are actual definitions of the words. Einstein knew these, and used the words for what they mean, not on an improvisational basis.
I also agree with the last quote. But again, that quote does not say 'patriotism is nonsense' it says loathsome nonsense going by the name of patriotism. That is because it is just posing as patriotism, as nationalism often does.
So I'm just talking about the meaning of the actual words. Many a patriot has not marched in the rank and file of the current regimes in charge. Nationalists always do. The words are not interchangeable.
Had you asked 'is Nationalism just as bad as...' I'd have agreed, patriotism, can not agree.

[white_wolf]

25. I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of Einstein's words.

I know for a fact he was an internationalist and had no loyalty or love for any state he ever lived in.

[Shagbark Hickory]

20. I dunno man. That's gonna be a tough sell.

[white_wolf]

22. Also things like the Pledge of Allegiance have a very nationalist character to them.

Teaching children to pledge their allegiance to the State is brainwashing. I know students can choose not to do it, but it is very strongly encouraged and you are never told you have a choice.

[cali]

23. None of the public schools my son attendended in the

nineties had a recitation of the pledge of allegiance. I don't particularly care for the pledge because of the under god stuff and I don't think kids should have to recite it mindlessly every day, but I don't think it rises to nationalism. Does pledging allegiance to the state when one becomes a citizen also have a nationalistic characteristic to it?

I think there's a fine line between nationalism and patriotism, but I do think there are significant differences.