Woman, 78, with dementia booked for stealing bag of cookies at Portland Walmart

[stevedeshazer]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/09/granny_with_dementia_booked_fo.html

A $2.14 package of cookies landed a 78-year-old granny suffering from dementia in jail this week.

Jean Rubino was handcuffed and hauled off to Multnomah County jail on Monday after Walmart security nabbed her with the cookies in her purse, said Sgt. Pete Simpson of Portland police.

"It is clearly a very unfortunate situation," he said. "Of course we don't want to see grandma going to jail."

Rubino was picked up by a Walmart shuttle Monday afternoon from Laurelhurst House, an assisted care facility in Southeast Portland where she lives, and taken to the store on Southeast 82nd Avenue. While there, she picked up a bag of chips and put it next to her purse, Simpson said. She then selected cookies and stuffed them inside.

:facepalm:

[KansDem]

1. Good think this didn't happen in Fullerton, California.

The police might have killed her there...

[joeybee12]

2. There's no reason for this...it should have been easily determined where

she lived and managment should have handled it internally...then again, Wal-Mart management is a bunch of dicks.

[KamaAina]

3. A likely story.

Dementia my Aunt Fanny. That gives her the perfect cover story to pilfer all the cookies she can stuff in her purse. Lock her up and throw away the key!

:sarcasm:

[MADem]

7. Turns out you are right, despite the sarcasm tag--it was her THIRD TIME stealing.

They gave her a pass the first two times.

[joeybee12]

10. Then they need to stop bringing her to the store...it was Wal-mart's shuttle...

Wal-Mart's the idiot here...as they suually are.

[MADem]

32. No, it wasn't "WALMART's" shuttle--it was the senior facility's shuttle. NT

[PotatoChip]

88. Yes it was Wal Mart's shuttle. Excerpt from article here...

Lance Leland, executive director of Laurelhurst House, declined to comment on the situation or her mental condition.

“She wasn’t with our staff,” Leland said. “She wasn’t on our bus. She was at the store but not with us.”

Rubino has lived at the facility for only a week. He said Walmart’s shuttle picks up residents at care and retirement facilities for weekly shopping trips.

[rhett o rick]

11. And her time in jail will fix the problem. nm

[MADem]

33. She will probably be paroled, pay a fine, likely suspended, and told to stay the fuck out of that

store. That would be a GOOD thing, IMO. You can't just allow people to steal because you feel sorry for them because they are ill. If she is, in fact, showing an advancement in her stage of dementia, she will need to be moved up to the next level at that facility where she is living, and get more supervision.

[backscatter712]

94. If the court has any common sense, they'd be looking for ways to get her treatment.

Get a psychiatrist to look at her, try to treat the dementia, figure out why she's doing this.

Some courts do this.

Other courts rig the system to stick a spigot in everyone that goes through them, and vacuum up all their cash.

[MedicalAdmin]

108. In America? Unless she is rich...

.. the next stage up is the streets and an early death from violence or exposure or starvation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. At the risk of hitting a hornet or two

If you understood the disease process this should not shock you. And she will do it again.

[MADem]

34. She won't do it at that store, and likely, she won't be taking that shuttle bus, either.

She's at an assisted living facility, and the odds are good that she'll be getting more "assistance" as a consequence of this latest incident.

You aren't hitting a hornet--I simply don't think that saying "Awww, never mind" yet again, after two previous incidents, was doing this lady--if she's suffering the effects of illness, and isn't simply Granny Stickyfingers on a good day--any favors. I also don't think the store--or any store, for that matter--is a charity. They shouldn't have to put up with that crap.

[stevedeshazer]

60. True.

My parents, well, shit.

This does happen.

[tgal]

22. This is disgusting

Do you have a CLUE about Alzheimer's????

[MADem]

37. Yes, I do have a clue--do you?

If you did, you wouldn't be so dramatic about a perfectly reasonable course of action--after THREE incidents--by this store.

What if someone burgled your house, not once, twice, but three times--and the excuse they used was "Gee, I have dementia, you have to pretend it never happened?" Please.

Faux sympathy won't help this woman, IF she is indeed impaired. What will help her is identification of her problem through the legal system, and increased supervision of her at her assisted living facility if the cause of her shoplifting is illness, and not that she's been a thief all her life (old people aren't always saints, you know--plenty of thieves and con artists and other petty criminals actually DO live to a ripe old age....and they don't necessarily change their stripes as they age).

No more jaunts to WALMART, if she is truly ill.

[Bryn]

42. Yes, 3 times still means dementia/Alz's disease

My Mom has it and she does things OVER and OVER! Stop beating up this lady. You're not a doctor and aren't qualified to diagnose her.

I can't believe some people here like "3 times? Ha.. she must have done it on purpose and doesn't have it."

[MADem]

45. ENOUGH. No one is "beating up" this lady.

The store is NOT going to prosecute her. They aren't even going to BAN her.

I wish you, and others, would stop INFANTALIZING this woman. She's not a baby, she's an ADULT who knew enough to cuss like a sailor when she got caught stealing for the third time.

If she has issues, well, how GOOD of WALMART--they helped her Assisted Living Facility IDENTIFY THEM. Seeing as she is a NEW resident there, they now have a better idea of what they need to do for her when she goes out shopping. Now, if/when she goes shopping again, they can send along a MINDER so she won't steal again.

No one here knows this lady. Not a single person has popped up to say "That's my sister" or "That's my aunt." Yet everyone is too eager to shove this ADULT woman into the "poor widdle granny, she's SICK, she doesn't know any better, AWWWWWW...." category.

For all we know, she's been a shoplifter for the last four decades, and it's only her dementia that's made her slower with the sticky fingers. Or NOT. Point is, we don't know. Yet everyone assumes that she's a basket case who can't speak for herself (except to swear at the cop and hope that he dies), and the store (which--one more time--is not prosecuting her or banning her--they're just sick of her shit) is the "Bad Guy."

The store has done nothing wrong. They have a right to conduct business without having people steal the products off the shelves--be they TVs, underwear or cookies. They've done this lady a FAVOR. You wouldn't know it from the excoriation they are receiving by the overly solicitous infantalizers (who never had to be personally and pecuniarily responsible for inventory, apparently) here.

[stevedeshazer]

54. I am stunned by the callousness of your posts on this thread.

You have to be fucking kidding.

Let's haul Granny off for stealing cookies when she's senile?

Really?

Jeezus H Christ.

:grr:

[MADem]

61. I am stunned by your characterization of this adult female as 'granny'

who is stupid, helpless, demented, etc.

YOU have got to be "fucking kidding."

You don't even know this woman, and you're eagerly "characterizing" her as some kind of helpless nitwit.

Jesus H. Christ, INDEED.

:eyes:

[stevedeshazer]

66. Thanks. You've lost the thread.

Just look at the responses.

For shame.

[MADem]

71. Get over yourself. Your attempt at high drama falls flat. NT

[Marrah_G]

83. Sounds like I am fortunate to not have to see those posts.

Whoever it is sounds like a real jerk.

[fascisthunter]

115. just reply to that poster with a Sieg Heil!

[stevedeshazer]

55. "They've done this lady a favor"

By arresting her, cuffing her?

That is sick.

You are backing up. That's because you realize you are wrong.

Just admit it.

When I started this thread, I never imagined someone would actually attack a senile woman repeatedly.

Look in a mirror, friend.

[MADem]

63. Why are you hyperposting?

If you have an issue with her being cuffed, you take it up with that liberal Oregon town's police department.

If you read, carefully, the story, the cops said they followed a standard procedure with every retail theft case. That wasn't Evil Walmart, that was the local Oregon community PD.

I am not "backing up" but you sure don't seem to have a single fact in order--yet. You do love a good finger wag, though, don't you?

Try calming down and gathering your thoughts before you start firing at me, "friend."

No one is attacking this woman--if she's demented, now her new facility--where she has been living for a short week-- knows just how much. How--except in the mind of someone who doesn't quite get how "assisted living" works--is that a "bad" thing?

Sheesh.

[stevedeshazer]

68. Hyperposting

:rofl:

Okay.

[MADem]

72. Don't know why you're chuckling--you replied to me TWICE re: the same post.

That's "hyperposting."

What's truly amusing is apparently you didn't realize it.

[stevedeshazer]

75. I bow to your incredulence.

It must sting.

[MADem]

77. How old are you--twelve? NT

[stevedeshazer]

78. I'm just eleven.

[MADem]

79. Ah, I'm not surprised. NT

[snooper2]

97. you can't make up new words without consulting the high council

Which include me as one of the voting members...

Please submit "hyperposting" to committee so we can review in next months meeting.


Thanks! :hi:

[kiranon]

106. Solution is for everyone to have a close relative with Alzheimer's and most will.

Nothing like living with the the condition to bring out understanding in others. Doubt this woman would have the mental capacity to "steal" if she has Alzheimer's to the point where she is in a care facility. It is up to the facility, however, to closely monitor residents w/Alzheimer's who are taken to stores. Can't imagine what it would be like to find out you have Alzheimer's and to contemplate what you will become in the future. There but for the grace of God, go I. And, all of us.

[MedicalAdmin]

109. It's sounds like "3 strikes....", doesn't it? n/t

[polly7]

138. I've looked after many people with Dementia and Alzheimer's, repetetive

behaviour is very, very common.

I feel bad for her, it's a sad story.

[saras]

80. Burgling a home is NOT equal to taking a package of cookies from Walmart - you lose.

Actually, everyone involved in the case has behaved pretty stupidly. She's just the only one with an excuse.

[LanternWaste]

96. I imagine that if they stole cookies from my house

"What if someone burgled your house, not once, twice, but three times..."

I imagine that if they stole cookies from my house (three times!), I would simply laugh it off. But that's just me, and I certainly won't hold anyone to my own standards of ethics.

I imagine that dogmatic judgements are just as shallow, and even more useless than "faux outrage"... :shrug:

[MedicalAdmin]

110. And it's not like your house is a retail location that is a public space....

Talk about a false analogy. Even the most right wing loon who quotes the castle doctrine daily (or left wing loon who does the same thing :P ) wouldn't agree that a home and retail location are the same.

[tsuki]

57. We caught Mom the first time. We reminded her she had to pay.

Her response was oh, like a small child. We did not allow her into the store alone after that. The assisted living facility should not have let her go.

[MADem]

65. She was a new resident. I suspect that the facility staffers didn't recognize her.

This lady gave the staff and the cops some "sailor talk." No "small child" behavior from her! She told the cop she hoped he died!

I suspect, too, that because this lady was a new resident, the AL facility didn't have a sense of this lady's issues and the staff may not have even recognized her by sight (if she even has issues--we still don't know if she's just an unrepentant shoplifter--like I've said, old people are people too, with all the good/bad/indifferent qualities of everyone else).

WALMART could be total jerks, but near as I can tell, they just want her to stop shoplifting. They aren't interested in prosecution or banning (I'm sure, with the caveat that the staff of the AL facility do a better job of minding her--if that is what it takes).

[Javaman]

99. A good assisted living environment does a psych profile/analysis of all new residents...

(for medical reasons) plus they should be giving the staff photos of new residents for the safety of the facility and for the patient(s).

As far as the "sailor talk" that's pretty typical of any persons who is experiencing "sundowning".

While I certainly don't fault the elderly woman, I do fault the assisted living facility.

A good facility, knows the where abouts of all the residents.

All residents need to meet a certain level of cognitive behavior to be allowed "off site" on their own.

While, I find various comments on this site very offensive, it's sadly typical with regard to people who don't have a remote notion of the degrees of dementia and Alzheimer's.

The issue is a societal one that has been with us for years. The "crazy old lady or man" bias.

I found it interesting that a few folks on here immediately found fault with the elderly woman.

In many cases of early dementia, there is a "rebellious streak". The person who is experiencing its onset feels a need to remain independent. Sadly, due to the disease, their reasoning capabilities begin to slack. Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. And as a result they sometime revert to behaviors that may have been commonly understood, in their childhood, to be "rebellious" or (still within their range of memory) do something illegal but not so illegal. All of which is based in a need for attention. Sadly.

I could go into the societal reasons for the need for attention, but I think we all know about that.

Just like anything there are various stages to this disease and within those stages there are also various degrees.

To me, it sounds like she's experiencing a classic case of sundowning. I wonder if she has any family.

[sad sally]

134. Having experienced the ravages and ultimate death of two family members

(Mom and Father-in-law), I agree with everything you've said, but would like to add:

Even the best run "memory loss" facilities with most of the residents being private pay, they are understaffed and overworked. Lots of families (like ours) try as long as we can to keep our loved one in a secure place outside the locked nursing care facilities. But unless there's an extended family/friends system in place to provide 24/7 care - and I do mean 24/7 care - care facilities become a necessity.

Facilities where the majority of residents are Medicare or Medicaid are even more understaffed and overworked.

With over 4,500,000 people inflicted with AD in the US, we've always been surprised the government doesn't consider this an epidemic and the panic buttons go off to urgently find out more, so the numbers don't escalate even faster than they are. Sadly, that's not the case. Although there are some breakthroughs in understanding cause, some dna testing to possibly learn if the gene is present, and some treatments that might slow progress, a cure is nowhere in sight. New studies show that there's a link between diabetes and early on-set AD, and with the skyrocketing numbers of kids with Type II diabetes, well, another scare. There's also new studies that show diabetes insulin spray may slow down AD.

Spend a few hours every day in a locked AD facility, get to know the caregivers and residents (even if they will never remember you from one minute to the next). For most of us who have experienced it firsthand for the long years from diagnosis to death will tell you - it's not the way anyone wants to die.

[Javaman]

136. I completely agree...

but sadly, it seems like anything that is good for the people of this nation is always understaffed and underfunded.

[tsuki]

131. That is the problem with dementia & Alzheimer's. Mom was a right

feisty lady, but after Alzheimer's, she became this quiet, sweet little old lady. My friend's father who was a hale well-met fellow turned mean, really nasty.

I could not put Mom in a nursing home. She had a fear of nursing homes. But I went with my friend to view some homes, and they asked all sorts of questions, wanted medical records and to do their own evaluation. Of course my friend only looked at the top rated nursing/assisted living homes.

[geardaddy]

126. Uncle Leo: I'm an old man. I got confused

JERRY: (Showing that it's a problem) Leo, I saw you steal.

LEO: Oh, they don't care. We all do it.

JERRY: Who, criminals?

LEO: Senior citizens. No big deal.

JERRY: You could get arrested.

LEO: Arrested? Come on! (Goes into a routine explaination for his stealing) I'm an old man. I'm confused! I thought I paid for it. What's my name? Will you take me home?

[LeftyMom]

4. Wait, Walmart has a shuttle?

"Rubino was picked up by a Walmart shuttle Monday afternoon from Laurelhurst House, an assisted care facility in Southeast Portland where she lives, and taken to the store on Southeast 82nd Avenue."

Who knew? :shrug:

[MADem]

9. No--it's one of those shuttles run by either the town or the facility, to help

people, seniors usually, who don't drive. They're usually big enough to accomodate a bunch of shopping bags and run on a regular schedule. I've lived in towns that run them to the medical centers, the malls, etc., on a continuous loop.

The lady had shoplifted at the store before. She's no poor granny--she's a petty thief.

[sad sally]

18. Have you been around anybody with dementia or Alzheimer's?

[MADem]

31. I sure have, and my point stands--she was given not one, but TWO passes

by the store. She used her "Feeble Granny" card not once, but twice, and that is more than enough.

The cop didn't observe any fragility of comprehension, either. If she's suffering from either condition, she's in early stages or was having a good day.

The store is not a charity--it's not "OK" to let the little old lady steal things over and over again because "she didn't mean it."

This arrest means she won't be in there anymore, and that's probably best for all concerned.

[Wind Dancer]

95. Wrong.

It's quite obvious from your posts that you have no idea about Alzheimers or Dementia. Enough said.

[MedicalAdmin]

112. I'm inclined to take him at his word.

ANd I agree with his points that the facility needs to do a better job and that the store needs to also keep her out (and maybe not pick her up anymore because that means that they are a contributing factor ).

However I do with (s)he would phrase his/her arguments more diplomatically.



Sigh - can't we all just get along..... :P

[sad sally]

12. No, it's the Laurelhurst House that has a shuttle that takes residents

to various places (Walmart, doctor's offices, the library) on a regular schedule.

Lots of residents who live in care facilities don't drive (and lots shouldn't drive even if they can) or don't have family that will or can, so depend on these shuttles to get them around.

This woman probably has early stage dementia (maybe Alzheimer's), so is not in a locked facility. But sounds like she does need some assistance, and if the world was a perfect place, would have a "normal thinking" companion to go with her.

[LeftyMom]

17. Oh, I know about those, The phrasing just made it sound like it was Walmart's shuttle.

Seemed odd, but not entirely unbelievable, so I figured I'd ask.

[PotatoChip]

90. Thats because it IS WalMart's shuttle. See post #88, way upthread

there is a copy/paste from another part of the article that specifically says it is a WalMart shuttle.

[Gormy Cuss]

26. According to the article it was not a Laurelhurst House shuttle.

Lance Leland, executive director of Laurelhurst House, declined to comment on the situation or her mental condition.

“She wasn’t with our staff,” Leland said. “She wasn’t on our bus. She was at the store but not with us.”

That doesn't mean that Walmart sponsored the shuttle but that is the implication in the article since it's referred to as a "Walmart shuttle" at least twice.

[MADem]

43. That sounds to me like old Lance didn't have her on the shopping roster, not that

the management of the facility weren't running the bus. She'd only been a resident at that Assisted Living facility a week, maybe the staff didn't yet recognize her.

"She wasn't on OUR bus" (OUR bus suggests that they have one, if they didn't have one, the guy would have said "We don't have a bus"--maybe she took public transportation--or maybe she just slid on the shuttle and they missed her?). "She wasn't with OUR staff" (so they had staff supervising the shopping trip to Walmart?). Maybe he didn't realize that she was one of "OUR" residents, since she was NEW.

The facility is "conveniently located" near shopping AND public transportation, so she could have found her own way.

[dembotoz]

129. ding ding ding ding--and the winner is-- a personal shopper to assist her

maybe supplied by walmart, maybe by the home,

maybe a fellow resident who is still better glued together.

[stevedeshazer]

5. Granny is senile, steals cookies, gets arrested.

Dick Cheney makes a fortune in war profiteering, writes a book bragging about it.

[MedicalAdmin]

113. +1

Excellent post.

[Javaman]

120. +1 nt

[MADem]

6. Dementia my ass--this was her THIRD STRIKE stealing from that place.

No wonder she's looking pissed in that pic--her "little old addled lady" schtick didn't work this time.

A Walmart security official took her into custody and called Portland police, saying this was the third time she’d been caught stealing. Simpson said she somehow got away the first time and was stopped after the second incident but not held.

“This time they arrested her,” he said.

Rubino is suffering from some kind of dementia, Simpson said, but that wasn’t apparent to the officer who cuffed her and took her to jail.

“The officer didn’t notice any physical or mental issues,” he said.

[rhett o rick]

13. “The officer didn’t notice any physical or mental issues,” Are you serious? Next time why dont they

just shoot her?

[MADem]

38. Why do you automatically, in prejudiced fashion, assume that the ONLY reason this woman

might have taken that stuff is because she is demented?

Old people can be assholes too--they can be thieves, con artists, bunko experts, you name it.

You don't even know this woman, yet you're playing the "Ewww, look at the poor widdle old lady" card. It's offensive, infantalizing an adult, particularly one you've never met.

The store is not planning on prosecuting her, FWIW. Read the last sentence: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/09/granny_with_dementia_booked_fo.html

But hey, don't let that small fact get in the way of your outraged narrative, complete with a firing squad strawman, against the evil store that is probably just sick and tired of this lady stealing shit and getting abusive when her conduct is noted.

[rhett o rick]

67. My outrage? LOL. I havent shown any outrage. I was reacting to your "outrage". You are the one that

said "Dementia my ass". You are the one outraged and I am not sure why.

[MADem]

73. And you're the one who came back with a McEnroe-esque "Are you Serious?"

I am astonished at your incorrect characterization, but you have one of those nice days, eh?

[rhett o rick]

69. Here is another thread where you can be outraged at the compassion for the mentally ill.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x626706

One word: empathy

[MADem]

74. Get over yourself. "Empathy" is not synonymous with "Let people get away with shit out of a

phony sense of pity."

This woman, if she is demented, will get help from her new residence, that "assisted living" facility, where she will, in future, be "assisted" by staff if she tries to steal anything again.

If she's not demented, she's on notice that they've got her number at WALMART.

See? It's a win-win.

And gee--mean old Walmart isn't prosecuting her, so you're left with no boogeyman, save me.

:eyes:

One word: Tiresome.

[rhett o rick]

82. "Get over yourself". is a discussion ender. I am disappointed. nm

[pennylane100]

14. WELL OF COURSE SHE WILL DO IT AGAIN IF SHE IS SENILE

What is so hard to understand about that. If she is senile, she does not know it is wrong to steal and she will keep doing it whenever she feels like it. Senility is the physical and mental impairment of old age. Calling her a little addled old lady is just a more crude way of describing her condition.

[MADem]

39. She's at an "assisted" living facility--so odds are she'll probably get a little more

"assistance" if she is, indeed, senile.

She knew enough to rip the staff at the store a new asshole when she was challenged about this third theft.

The store isn't planning on prosecuting her--they're just sick of her crap.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/09/granny_with_dementia_booked_fo.html

Gee said the company has no plans to ban her from the store or press charges.

[pennylane100]

50. If she is senile, anger is not an unexpected symptom.

My mother had dementia, they did not specifically call it Alzheimer Disease back then, but on a visit home I did not realize she was in the very early stages and I was quite upset at her irrational anger at people that she had known and loved all her life. I thought that she was just getting a little cranky, which was so out of character for her. I still, to this very day, regret that I had not been more understanding. My mother was a gentle caring woman and I had wish I had known what she was going through so I could have been more helpful.

My point is, if indeed she has dementia, irrational anger is understandable.

[MADem]

51. No, it's not. That said, old people can get angry and NOT be senile, too.

We don't know what this lady's deal really is. She could be a victim of illness, or she could be a mean, old nasty cuss who has been shoplifting since she was a teenager and who could teach a sailor how to swear. We know nothing about her.

WALMART is "NOT" the bad guy, here. They aren't prosecuting her. They aren't even banning her from the store. They just don't want her lifting the merchandise anymore.

I think their stance is perfectly reasonable.

Perhaps her new assisted living residence can send along a minder to tell her to not put shit in her purse; that's probably what they will do. Problem solved.

[Javaman]

101. Sadly, it appears as if your knowledge and experience with people

who suffer from dementia and Alzheimer's is very limited.

For both cases, they vary in stages and depth.

For some people who were once really nice, will experience, with dementia, very violent and angry out burst or personality changes to such.

This is nothing new.

The opposite is also true.

[Mimosa]

86. Exactly. I saw anger and irritability a lot in senile people at nursing homes

Anger, confusion, lack of impulse control go hand in hand with most cases of senile dementia.

MADem's lack of understanding and empathy remind me of what 'conservatives' post on right wing boards when these kind of news stories are posted.

[Javaman]

102. it's really sad.

Rather than trying to understand the disease they just choose instead to throw out the old tired euphemisms.

Cheers!

[sad sally]

135. Although we aren't Catholic, Mom was in a Alzheimer's facility

for two years in one they owned (very well run, but very expensive), so several of the residents were Nuns in various stages of Alzheimer's. One, who staff said had been the most gentle woman in her "good years," could swear like the best construction worker you've ever heard, and was also a "thief." Almost every day staff would go thru her dresser and find other people's clothes, glasses, lotion, pillows, you name it - whenever something was missing they knew where to look for it.

Don't be hard on yourself. As annoying as our parents can be to us sometimes, it's a difficult thing to acknowledge this disease. And consider it lucky that you can remember her as a gentle caring woman.

[pennylane100]

137. Thank you for your very kind words.

I would like to think that a progressive community would always give people the benefit of the doubt before judging them.

[fascisthunter]

118. she had an excuse... she was senile...

the poster you responded to is just dumb... no excuses really.

[glowing]

25. Wouldn't it make more sense for Walmart to just keep a little eyeball on her,

and when they see her putting something in her bag, they take it out and scan it for her to pay for it.. Or perhaps the store could come up with creative solutions like having a "store credit" type of item. Family members could put money into an account and when Granny comes thru and does her little snatch thing, they just ping the account. The woman has dementia. Things like the sense of right and wrong may not always be registering. I would assume Walmart would rather get old people's money for their shopping and meds. Simple solutions that don't result in Grandma being put into jail is a human response to our elderly population... This isn't like teaching a child moral values and right and wrong... She's at the end part of her life. She is having issues with memory and such. Why do we have to be so inhumane as a population?

The reason why corporations are a such a drain on societies is because money is so tied to "how things work". Corporations are money hungry beasts... Entire laws, rules, and regulations (or lack thereof) are created around these hungry beasts.... AND because these mythical beasts demand to hoard from the rest, they soak up human spirit, ingenuity, compassion, and common sense. They end up protecting psychopaths like Cheney, and hurt people like Grandma who no longer produces, but becomes a "drain" on the beast.

Our country is literally unable to deal with being humane and treating one another in humane sensible ways; its also unable to move forward. We are not using the best potential of people's God-given talents in a manner that pushes us as humans forward into a better world. The child born into poverty will not realize his/ her fullest potential... That child born into the impoverished family could have been the one who discovers the cure for diabetes. That child could have been the one who could have created the most beautiful moving music that eased aching hearts... We aren't allowing for the best of ourselves to help ourselves because of the monsters in the world who demand money and power.. ALL for what? What does it create? What does it do for our communities? What does it do for our world? We have one life... Why is it we aren't able to be the best of ourselves for ourselves and for our future.... It makes no sense to say "die" to someone because they don't have insurance so a Dr. won't treat them. Its insane to put Grandma with Dementia in jail for cookies. Its living in an insane society that is making people sick enough to shout out, "let em' die".. and applaud executions.

[MADem]

40. Who pays for Walmart's "minders?" The rest of the consumers?

And what happens when she starts screaming "THIEF" after someone "goes into her bag" after a stolen item and "take(s) it out" to scan it?

The assisted living facility--where this woman has been living for JUST A WEEK--needs to do that--not the WALMART or any other store. This lady wasn't "with" the shopping group from the facility, but somehow, she got to the WALMART with 'em.

The "inhumane" company is not prosecuting the woman and has no plans to ban her from the store.

Apparently, they're just sick of her shit. I don't blame them.

[glowing]

62. Could you imagine a society where people had a bit more time and

actually volunteered to help our demented elders around a shopping store? Could you imagine a world where cookies weren't the issue? Could you imagine a world where no one said, "...and who's going to pay for that?" That's the type of world I want to live in or at least pass on. Today, its cookies, tomorrow, its someone's health... "who's going to pay for that comatose patient?"

[MADem]

70. You know, I spend a shitload of my time helping the elderly.

I deliver meals on wheels, I take 'em to the polls by the dozens, to doctor's appointments, the vet with their pets, stuff like that. I put my focus on people who aren't ready for assisted living, who need help to stay in their own homes because they aren't driving anymore. If I wanted to, I could get a huge tax bennie from the miles I rack up on my shitty old car every year. I don't bother to keep track of it, but it's MOST of the driving I do in a month.

I really don't need a lecture about helping seniors in a "caring society."

In a place like suburban Oregon, where this lady resides, I would wager that the Elder Services/Senior Assistance is probably top of the damn line.

I also suspect that if that woman was at the WALMART, she got there on the Assisted Living Facility bus, and the staffers did not recognize her because she was NEW to the facility. I also suspect that the staffers--who often are paid minimum wage at those joints, and who are mostly well meaning but not Rhodes Scholars--are covering their own asses because they fucked up and weren't watching this lady (who was finally bagged after her THIRD shoplifting incident)--if she was indeed discombobulated, and not a seasoned shoplifter.

You can get all pissed at me for asking "Who's gonna pay for that?" but the truth of the matter is that SOMEONE is going to have to pay. Retail outlets--be they WALMART, IKEA, you name it--are not CHARITIES. Cookies may not be the issue, but inventory sure as hell is--you can't keep watching it walk out the door in some lady's purse and stay in business. It isn't the retail outlet's job to get involved in that fashion, hiring people to look out for shoppers, and it is not appropriate, either. In a retail environment, inventory loss cuts profit, can cause retail outlets to fire workers or even close their doors, which would be shitty for the local economy, BTW... and must be aggressively managed. That's just a basic given.

And when WALMART opens their first hosptal, you might have a point about the comatose patient. Right now, the health care system doesn't deliver their product at "retail" prices. They overcharge up the ass and make unreasonable profits. It's an apples and oranges attempt at comparison.

This woman lives in an ASSISTED LIVING facility. The facility where she lives needs to be the ones to do a little more ASSISTING, and that will solve the problem. She's not homeless or without supports. No need to rely on the unreliable kindness of strangers or volunteers.

[pennylane100]

139. Your question about who is going to pay when people shoplift begs a much larger question.

Who pays when a corporation like walmart moves into a community. A California study done several years ago estimated that many walmart workers, because of low wages and almost non existent benefits, are receiving medicaid and food stamps. At the time the study was done, in 2003, it was costing California tax payers 84 million dollars a year to subsidize these workers.

I think our time and energy would be better spent making these corporations pay their fair share rather than berating a 78 year old lady who may or may not be senile and likes to steal cookies.

[MedicalAdmin]

117. Today, its cookies, tomorrow, its someone's health

Tomorrow is today. Remember the latest talibaglican debate?

[MedicalAdmin]

116. Who pays for Walmart?

Every fucking person in the world. They are a drain on every society they infect.

[stevedeshazer]

47. +1

[Javaman]

100. The very last person I will trust to do a mental evaluation on anyone is a police officer. .

please read my post at #99.

It's plainly obvious you have never dealt with anyone suffering from Dementia or Alzheimer's.

[madmom]

127. At the same time, how are the people at walmart supposed to

deal with this, they also have no experience in evaluating someones mental capacity. They did what they should have, but hey it's walmart so of course let's jump on the I hate walmart band wagon.

[Javaman]

128. You make a very good point.

However, as I stated in another post, it is clearly the fault of the assisted living facility in not properly keeping track of her where abouts. There are lawsuits a mile long from families who have lost loved ones who have "gone astray" from poorly run facilities.

A good facility would have noticed she was gone and had alerted the authorities.

Now, to your original question: A good corporation will instruct their employees in all sorts of situations in regards to dealing with the public. This includes but isn't limited to, emergency situations, heart attacks, choking and lost children. Target, I know, from someone who works there, is instructed in dealing with the elderly. (it's actually not too different then the way they deal with lost children).

And I have my opinions about walmart, you might have read my threads on this a few years ago. I cut no massive corporation any slack, especially those who deal directly with the public.

Is Walmart at fault? Only in the fact they they don't better train their employees in dealing with the public. But then again, they don't treat their employee the best in the world either.

[madmom]

133. Oh I don't know about that...

I used to work at walmart and I was treated pretty good. I do agree, I put the biggest part of the blame of the assisted living facility. She was in their care whether she was at walmart or in there facility, they are responsible for her IMO.

[MedicalAdmin]

114. “The officer didn’t notice any physical or mental issues,” he said.

Officers are NOT medical professional and those with dementia, such as those who would be in a minimal to medium care facility like she was have lucid moments.

I'm not saying granny is innocent and she could be conning everyone, but she also could be ill. What happened to presumed innocent in this country (rhetorical question - the answer is Reagan).

[Lucian]

8. Stay classy, Walmart.

:eyes:

[Coyote_Bandit]

15. If she has dementia issues

then why the hell is the assisted living facility permitting her to leave the premises unescorted?

I'm guessing those dementia issues are not significant at this point.

[Warpy]

16. What the HELL did they expect to accomplish?

If she's got dementia, she's not going to learn from the experience.

The cops should have hustled her back on the bus and that should have been it.

[pipi_k]

23. That's true...

My MIL (93) had dementia and it got really bad when she lived here.

I quickly learned that if she said she had gotten up the night before and traveled to a football game, then that's what she did.

If she said there was a little boy in her bed with her, then there was.

When she asked how all her dead siblings were doing, we said they were "fine".

You don't argue with a dementia patient, and they don't learn...

[Warpy]

30. On the other hand, if you offer them some tea or food

there is no rush to prepare it for them because they'll have forgotten about it immediately.

My mother's dementia was due more to sensory deprivation--she was blind and nearly deaf--and involved her wandering around in the past. I finally convinced my dad it was kinder to leave her there than bring her into such an awful present. We could bring her into the present if we had to, as in discussing what she wanted in the way of health care, but it didn't last long.

[pipi_k]

35. Very very sad....

But yeah...sometimes letting them alone to wander in the past is the best thing.

About two or so weeks before my MIL died, we could hear her conducting math classes at night from her hospital bed in the living room. She had been a teacher, so it made sense. Each night she would conduct her class, then say goodbye to her "students".

I think the saddest one of all, though, was one day when she didn't even recognize Mr Pip, her own child. I cried for him. I can't even imagine my mom not knowing who I am.

[Warpy]

53. I have no idea if my mother recognized me toward the end

when I dropped everything here and went to Florida to give my dad a hand. I just let her die at home, like she'd wanted to, whether or not she had any idea where she was. I wanted her to live forever. Just not like that.

[pipi_k]

89. Caring for an elderly relative isn't easy, that's for sure....

Sometimes it sucks all the life out of the caregiver(s), faced with enormous stress.

I'm sorry your family had to go through that. :(

[Javaman]

104. My mom didn't

not only that, she didn't recognize photos of herself.

Fortunately, it was quick for her. Only about 2 years.

Many of the folks I have worked with have had it for years.

The most amazing thing though is, in the less severe stages, they will not remember members of their family but then spew out whole lists of old phone numbers, names and dates, etc as if they made some sort of quick mental connection.

It fades as quickly as it occurs and they go back to, what I like to call, the 30 second loop.

With my mom it was really tough but with some of the folks I worked with, I marvel at their ability to just live in the moment. Granted, they don't have much of a choice, but it's still interesting to witness.

The upshot to all of this is, with Dementia/ Alzheimer's, the patients, because of their short term memory, accept everyone for who they are. No prejudgments. :)

[Marrah_G]

87. My grandmother didn't know us the least year or so.

My mother visited her every day. Most days she didn't know her. Once in a while she knew me or thought I was my mother. She was also terrified and convinced the staff was part of a criminal organization trying to kill her. Wicked tough thing to go through.

Now my guys father started to lose it near the end of a battle with cancer. He was funnier though. He would do things like try to answer the TV remote or say " I bet you don't see that squirrel sitting on your shoulder either" ...and he would laugh. It was strange, he would hallucinate, mostly animals for some reason, but he also knew what he was seeing couldn't really be true and would joke about it.

[pipi_k]

91. It's great when they can keep a sense of humor, like your dad

He sounds like my dad, who, ten months before he died, said that he wanted to be cremated because at least he would be "warm" for a little while instead of feeling cold all the time.


Anyway, about my MIL...We had to put her in a nursing home for a month during her stay here because she got a raging UTI and the meds she was on were messing with her head. That was before an ER doc placed her on hospice.

Anyway, we got multiple calls from the staff asking us to come and try to calm her down. Same deal as your mom. She thought the staff were out to get her. One night she was so outrageous they had to call the police, but she had calmed down by time they got there. I guess one of the staff leaned over her and her ID lanyard was hanging from her neck and my MIL grabbed it an tried to choke her. She was taken to the ER, and that's when the doc did tests and said she had renal failure.

Oh, and she was feisty for 93...she got into an argument with her roommate at the nursing home and punched her in the head. We had to send the poor woman flowers to make up for it.

[Javaman]

121. Exactly right.

to them, it is their reality.

It's actually pretty fascinating.

My mom would talk about things from when she was a teen as if it were happening right that very moment.

She used to think I was her brother.

After I got over my emotions of "losing" the mom I once knew, I found the conversations with her absolutely fascinating.

It was just that that led me to do volunteer work with Alzheimer patients.

If I were a much much younger person, I would seriously go into that field of study.

[riderinthestorm]

56. +100000. No shit. It's dementia and by its very definition people do irrational things.

Obviously this woman is exhibiting shoplifting (hoarding?) tendencies but a bag of cookies is something Walmart can afford to "lose" even as they speak to the AL bus driver and let them know the woman cannot go to the store unsupervised (or never go again frankly) since her dementia is producing negative behavior.

Why go to the trouble of booking this poor soul? Hideous. And cruel.

Honestly, I've often wondered if my childhood shoplifting habits won't manifest themselves when/if I get dementia. As a child of poverty, I am well versed in stealing toilet paper rolls from public places and putting them in my purse. Free crackers? I'd take every single packet out there (with pb and jam thieved from IHOP it was a feast!)

I suspect some of these elderly people feel so helpless they revert to coping behaviors and when you're in stages of dementia I'd guess it's simply part of the process as one's brain collapses in on itself and the neurons fire in the craziest ways.

Honestly though, booked for cookies?? I don't care if its the third offense, Walmart needed to have spoken with the facility after the 1st offense and the facility should have shut her down long before this. This isn't this poor woman's fault. Shame on all of them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. DA will drop case

As they should.

[WinkyDink]

21. Why cannot she be called a "woman," instead of "grandma"?

[pipi_k]

28. My thought is that

calling someone a "grandma" or a "grandpa" makes the person seem more vulnerable. Less dangerous. More apt to evoke feelings of sympathy in people.

[stevedeshazer]

48. The headline called her a "woman".

:shrug:

[hankthecrank]

24. she should be judged by jury of her peers

I'm guessing Walmart would come out losing big

it should never have gotten to arrest stage

we are judged by how we take care of others

Dammit granny drop the chips

[pipi_k]

29. People with dementia?

OK, dementia isn't funny, but can anyone get a mental picture of a jury made up of dementia sufferers?

It would be interesting, at the very least.

[Marrah_G]

84. ooooo you are bad.

I shouldn't laugh.... but I am.... omg, what a mental image.

[pipi_k]

92. I know...

every day it would be a new trial....

[Marrah_G]

119. .

~facepalm~

:rofl:

[Javaman]

122. What do you mean every day? Every 5 minutes...if you are lucky. nt

[malaise]

27. Private prisons will be cashing in on the economic crisis

This will make 19th century England look like child-splay.

[mrmpa]

36. The scariest part of this story is.............

that Walmart runs a shuttle bus!

[MADem]

41. They don't.

It's the bus "to" Walmart for seniors....not the bus BY Walmart.

[mrmpa]

59. Thanks, the way the OP read...........it appeared they did.

[Javaman]

123. It was Walmarts shuttle, from the article...

Rubino has lived at the facility for only a week. He said Walmart’s shuttle picks up residents at care and retirement facilities for weekly shopping trips.

[pennylane100]

44. I was thinking that the family of this lady may try to make a case against Walmart

They provide free transportation to this woman who is possibly senile, an act that could be construed as an invitation to their store. The fact that she had done this before makes it plausible that they were aware of her condition. When she gets to the store, she shoplifts, because, after
all she has dementia. They then throw their invited guest in jail for doing the same thing she has done on her last two invitations to visit. How rude.

I know this is a stretch but it would be great if someone tried to make a case of it.

[MADem]

49. How? There's no "case" here--except by WALMART and they aren't biting.

They don't provide the transportation. The AL facility does.

This woman was NEW to the AL facility--there for a week. That suggests that the woman may have shoplifted THREE TIMES in the week she's been living there.

From statements made by the facility spokesperson, I am starting to wonder if the staff accompanying the residents didn't recognize this lady because she is new.

Oh--and the management at WALMART aren't prosecuting her; they aren't evening banning her from the store.

The police used their SOP when arresting her--it was the police that cuffed her and booked her--not WALMART. And she DID steal.

The manager at the WALMART just wanted the shit to stop, and odds are good, that is what will happen.

[elias7]

52. I have enjoyed reading your patient and thoughtful comments in this thread

The black and whiteness of the non-critical thinking emotionalists here on DU is annoying.

Nice job...

[stevedeshazer]

64. I must give you credit. I've never seen a DU poster so willing to defend the abuse of the elderly.

Are you a Wal-Mart manager?

Seriously, what is your defense of this?

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipi_k]

98. Just wanted to say...

that I understand your point, and agree.

If we allow people with mental disabilities to do certain (illegal) things without any consequence whatsoever, where do we draw the line?

I know you're not advocating for mistreatment or cheering for a prison sentence. I know you know that they won't learn not to do it again.

But, like you said, there does come a time when a person or a business says, "Enough is enough".

I'm aware of the fact that many people think it's OK to "stick it to" businesses like Walmart by robbing them, or cheering on others who rob them. But in the end, it's the little people who will pay higher prices when these stores figure they need to make up their losses by charging more.

People, and businesses, have a right to expect their stuff won't be stolen by anybody, no matter who it is.

[mvd]

103. I know dementia, and with that condition..

she probably didn't understand what she was doing. I agree with the previous poster and am not a Walmart fan at all. So many of these corporations (Walmart, Verizon, Comcast, etc.) have gotten too powerful for the good of society, and that's where government needs to come in. Without government restrictions on corporations, America would absolutely fascist.

[kiranon]

107. Well said. n/t

[hunter]

46. I hope I set my sights higher than a bag of cookies when I'm old and demented.

I want to drive away in somebody's Ferrari... at the very least.

Nursing home resident apprehended in stolen Ferrari. Got lost in Barstow, stopped to ask cop for directions. Said he was headed for Vegas.

[Generic Other]

58. I wanna be in that nursing home

when we all escape with you at the wheel. I'll steal the cookies.

[Marrah_G]

85. hahahahahahahahaha

[Supply Side Jesus]

81. So people with Dementia are let loose

whenever they want to go? whatever....

Wal-Mart could have refuse to prosecute and let her go.

Wal-Mart wants to be the victim, so the Police have no choice...the DA will probably drop the case. What a waste of resources

[pipi_k]

93. I guess they are....I haven't seen her in a while, but...

there was an older woman in a nearby city who used to go into Walgreens all the time.

Really, I would see her there a lot. She always had the same pair of pants on, and they would be soaked from waist to knees with urine.

They looked like they hadn't been washed in a year.

One day I got stuck behind her in the checkout line. OMG. The smell was awful. I have a pretty strong stomach and it takes a lot to make me retch, but this was terrible.


My first thought when I see stuff like this is...who the hell is taking care of people like this? Where are they? SOMEONE must be seeing this, either at the person's home, or in a care facility.

[kiranon]

111. Probably no one is taking care of her. She may have been homeless.

Or she may have no one to advocate for her to get her into a care facility. Many people do not have the capacity to obtain needed services (do not know how to negotiate the system) or the services do not exist for them. Next time you see an older person in this condition perhaps you could contact social services and ask if they could help her. It's not easy growing old if one is alone in the world and unable to care for themselves. Thankfully, I have a great family but there are many who do not have anyone to care for them or about them.

[pipi_k]

132. The problem with contacting social services

is how does one tell tell them who this woman is, or how to get hold of her. I would probably have to physically take her someplace, or hold her. Or call the police, but she hasn't committed a crime.

It's possible that she could be staying at the homeless shelter only one block away from that Walgreens.

[That1202Anarchist]

105. Let her go..

They arrested her for a bag of cookies.. Holy shit. I have a friend who Burglarized a store (well he was accused of it, they had him on camera) and he got let go. They found him not guilty, and released him..

It's sad how people treat others.. One little thing, you end up in a cell.
All they need to do is.
Slap on the wrist, and let em go.
For SMALL things, such as this..
There's no need to make an arrest for "Cookies"..
Although, I am not too familiar with what "Dementia" is...
OH well. It's cookies..
Viva Damn!

[Javaman]

124. Good thing it wasn't a loaf of bread.

probably would have given her the chair.

how far we have fallen in society.

[SwissTony]

125. There's no "one size fits all" with dementia.

My mother's in a home. You can have a perfectly normal conversation with her most of the time. She's well aware of the present, but as soon the subject delves into the past, forget it. She can't remember this morning, never mind yesterday. Her long term memory's pretty shot, too.

Of course, if the conversation goes on long enough, she repeats herself...and repeats herself.

Still, she's happy. She knows where she is and why she's there most of the time. And it's a great home with wonderful, caring staff. Good old socialised medical care!!

As for swearing...my uncle died recently. When he was healthy, he was the most violence-avoiding man I've ever met. And brave with it. I've seen him get between drunken Celtic and Ranger supporters who thought the other side needed emergency brain surgery using iron bars. He was a lifelong Celtic supporter but didn't believe others had to die because they didn't share his enthusiasm.

When he became ill, he became a violent, foul-mouthed bastard. It was so sad to see. So very, very sad. Of course, we console ourselves that it wasn't really him.

[Mimosa]

130. Swiss Tony it wasn't 'him'

It was a person you loved whose brain suffered from broken connections and deterioration. I'm sure his spirit, healed, free, lives on in another dimension.

Welcome to D.U. :D