Atheist group to rip Bible pages in H.B. Saturday

[The Straight Story]

Members of a grassroots atheist group say they will tear out pages of the Bible at the Huntington Beach pier Saturday to point out what they say is immorality in the book many Christians base their faith on.

Backyard Skeptics members plan to rip out pages with specific passages of the Bible that they say portray immoral biblical law, organizers say.

“We’re not there to burn the Bible or dhttp://www.allgov.com/esecrate,” Bruce Gleason, director of Backyard Skeptics, said. “There are plenty verses in the Bible that if you did any of those things today, you’d be thrown in jail immediately.”

Group members will rip out verses in the Bible such as Deuteronomy 22: 14-31, which says if a man finds his wife not to be a virgin, the community can stone her; or a later verse in the same chapter the Backyard Skeptics say can be interpreted to say that virgins who are raped will be forced to marry their rapist.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/bible-317251-gleason-say.html

Good thing it's not the Koran, then people would be upset and say it was wrong/hateful

[no_hypocrisy]

1. That's not the way to go.

I could get behind reading those passages aloud and criticizing them. Not destruction. Too much like book burning.

[rationalcalgarian]

202. Agreed!

Pointing out the falseness, the hypocrisy and the savagery of the bible in a public forum is much more productive than a violent act. Even so, it won't convince or reach many of the the devout, or even a small minority of the devout, but it might reach someone. And that would be worth it.

[cali]

2. stupid fuckers.

and yes it's hateful. disingenuous of them to say it's not.

[izquierdista]

5. Is it all right to hate religion?

I'm certainly not very fond of it.

[cali]

21. I think so, but I don't think it's alright to try and offend people over deeply

held beliefs.

[izquierdista]

35. Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Don't tell me -- you're a vegan and you respect all cows, no matter what.

[cali]

43. Nope. I'm not a vegan

And I'm not opposed to mocking religion. This is hardly that.

[kestrel91316]

89. It is exactly that.

[cali]

133. wow. that was persuasive. not.

[sabrina 1]

99. An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

Since we're talking about the Bible. So you won't mind when another group publicly desecrates some sacred cows of Atheists. Which I'm sure some creative hater will find.

Let's keep attacking each other, that sure has worked in the past.

Just as stupid and hateful as the Koran Burners and likely to only get an anti-Atheist backlash.

Which may very well be the purpose.

[LAGC]

146. What sacred cows do atheists have?

If someone going to burn an effigy of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

:rofl:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

207. Ann Coulter?

[MNBrewer]

94. Nobody has the right not to be offended by criticism of their beliefs

regardless of how deeply held they are.

[sabrina 1]

115. That old Ayn Rand philosophy, 'if there's no law against it I can do

whatever makes me feel good'. I think we've had enough of that belief system in this country.

The moral law gives us the right to the expectation of being treated with respect and requires us to do the same. That leads to a civil society. That doesn't mean all people will cooperate, there are stupid idiots and criminals everywhere, but rather than emulate THEM, if we are to maintain a civil society we look for better models to imitate.

I think this is being done to instigate anger at Atheists.

[Warren DeMontague]

182. Calling it an "Ayn Rand philosophy" is a weak-ass argument.

They buy the books, they can do what they want with them. This endless special pleading for people to have their beliefs and fetishistic symbols off-limits from questioning or even mockery is out of control. This is more than just an academic thought exercise for me; I come from a Jewish family that lived near Skokie when the Nazis marched in the 70s. But the answer to speech people don't like is more speech, not trying to silence the speaker. That applies to bible-ripping, koran or flag-burning, cartoons about mohammed, whatever.

If a Christian group wants to buy up a bunch of Richard Dawkins books and rip them up, that's their perogative. Some people need to grow the fuck up and get over their attachments to their symbols, the way kids eventually realize that a favorite teddy bear is just cloth and stuffing.

[GoneOffShore]

192. There you go, trying to use reason and intellect.

Are you high or what?

[peace13]

8. Hateful?

It's a book. A BOOK!

[cali]

11. it is to me but to a lot of people it's sacred.

[Fumesucker]

12. Was it hateful when Jefferson cut up the Bible to make his own version?

[cali]

18. no, and if you can't see the difference between this publicity stunt

aimed at offending people and what Jefferson did....

oh, and was it hateful when the FL minister burned the Koran?

[Fumesucker]

26. Frankly I was more offended by Rick Warren giving the invocation at Obama's inaugural..

Than I was by an equally dumb ass preacher burning a Koran.

One has the imprimatur of the President of the United States of America, the other does not.

[Bragi]

55. Good point! /nt

[JackRiddler]

117. Sorry, that's an invalid analogy.

Jefferson wrote his own version.

He didn't ritually massacre the book as though this would kill its power.

[kestrel91316]

88. Free speech.

[JackRiddler]

116. Yes, and incredibly stupid.

Atheists should be demonstrating the superiority and benefits of rational thought and skepticism, not mimicking the childish behavior of fanatic religionists by destroying symbols as though power actually resides in them.

[Jackpine Radical]

90. I agree entirely. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Not to mention childish & a prime example of unnecessarily sinking to the level of the most hateful of Koran-abusing fundies.

[LiberalFighter]

3. When will people read the bible and comprehend what is in it?

[snooper2]

4. They should really do it with a number of main stream fictional "holy" books

So I agree, it's really not fair to just do it with one...


They are just ripping out the pages that aren't followed anyway :rofl:

When's the last time you went out and killed your neighbor because you saw him cutting the grass (working) on a Sunday? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[truebrit71]

6. Don't care if it's the bible or the koran, it's stupid and wrong...

..there are other ways to make the same point without being deliberately confrontational..

[dawg]

7. Militant athiests, fudamentalist Christians & Muslims ....

More alike than different.

[cordelia]

9. Yep.

[peace13]

13. How is tearing a page from a book militant?

I can say with all certainty that more death and destruction has been done in the name of any god than the destruction caused by 'militant' atheists. Sick! Pages in abook...get serious!

[still_one]

19. It could be thought of in the same context of burning the flag. They may have the right to do so,

and even protected under the Constitution to do it, but that may not protect them against an unstable individual who views these actions differently

[dawg]

27. What did you think when Terry Jones was going to burn the Koran?

What did you think about reports that Korans were defiled in front of Muslim prisoners at Gitmo?

Personally, I was appalled.

[peace13]

46. I thought he was drawing an attack on the US.

The press built that story up. Ignore the event or publicize it with the information that in America we have the freedom to do such things but that the action does not represent the American people. Keep it simple. In reality thanks to * many Americans could give a crap if the Koran was burned. They have no respect for the religions of others. That in my mind is the biggest problem.

As far as gitmo goes it was all torture. There is a difference between burning a document in a public place and gathering a group of followers and forcing them to watch this. I still contend that the Bible or Koran is a group of pages. the sacredness is in the deity and as far as I know that deity is invisible at this time. Not a statue or a book. Restraining emotional charge is a good thing. Something not practiced by many religions.

[JuniperLea]

31. How did you feel about the Koran being burned...

And how should Muslims feel about that... and who has the right to say how a religious person should feel about their holy scriptures being burned. Just a book? Pft...

[Exultant Democracy]

85. Not to nit pick but Christians and Muslims have a very different relationship with their holy books

It's seriously a big deal to them in a way that the Christian bible never was.

The Christian bible has been dismembered, reshuffled and translated a billion ways to Tuesday while the Koran is still in more or less its original form (especially the black text which appears to be almost totally uniform.) The Muslims won't hold the Koran below their stomachs because it is seen as disrespectful to the books and when the books get old it is illegal to throw them away, they are still sacred objects.

Apples and Oranges

[JuniperLea]

162. Wrong... so very wrong...

Tell that to my Christian Missionary cousin... or any of the Fundy types in my family. You couldn't be more wrong... just wait until word gets out about this among hardcore Christians.

[Exultant Democracy]

191. Sorry but it s empirical fact. They write text books about this the council of Nicea alone proves it

but for a more modern version of this we can look to things like
the Conservative Bible Project.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project

This project is something that is in fact being done by hard core Christians, and is also something that not even the most hard core right wing Muslim would never do.

Unlike the bible which was cobbled together from a huge variety of sources: The old testament from a hodgepodge of Hebrew oral histories and the new testament from a number of people writing well after after the death of Christ using the apostles names as nomdeplumes. The general shape of the bible as we know it was edited over 300 year after the death of Christ at the behest of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Since the Council of Nicea the bible has been translated in numerous ways and into numerous languages often times by individuals and institutions with their own underling motivations.

The Koran’s nearly uniform common black text known as the, Uthmanic Codex was collected by the Caliph Uthman sometime in or around 650 ce. Uthman appointed five of the companions of Muhammad to collect and certify all the separate verses of the Koran and put them down once in for all in an authoritative manner to avoid the divergences experienced by the Jews and Christians with their holy books. Deviations between Islam law and the Koran, like the punishment for adultery which is stoning according to Islamic law but only a hundred lashes according to the Koran, show us that even the ulama in charge of writing Islamic laws was unable to edit the Koran.

This is just the tip of the iceburg.

While the bible and the Koran do share a many number of similarities there is no question the Muslims relationship with the Koran is one that has to be considered unique. There is a short book by a gentle man named Michael Cook whose name is escaping me (but I'm pretty sure Koran is in the title) if you are interested in some eye opening reading on this subject.

[wryter2000]

41. We have a winner

:applause:

[Jim__]

44. Absolutely! - n/t

[Occulus]

84. Not even close.

I don't have to worry about atheists beating me up or killing me for the crime of my existence. Atheists never tried to keep me from getting married, seeing a sick loved one in a hospital, or any of a long, long list of things the Christians have done to me and people like me.

I hate Christianity and I fear its adherents. For good reason. My life is at stake when they're around. I have to feel that way about it because I can't tell the difference between a Christian who wants to "save" me, a Christian who wants to beat me bloody, and a Christian who just wants me dead.

You FAIL. Miserably.

[dawg]

102. You seriously think there are no bigoted athiests?

Come on.

Ayn Rand was an athiest.

And you think poor little dawg, who wouldn't hurt you for anything, FAILS miserably?

But I get it. At least as much as somenone can who has never had to face that type of persecution. And I apologize for those of my faith who have, or who would, mistreat you.

But it isn't all of us.

And athiests don't have it all figured out either.

I'd encourage you to read the Cracked article I link to down thread. Or at least watch the South Park episode. :P

[Fumesucker]

103. I'm sorry but the correct appellation for atheists who dare to speak up is "rabid" not "militant"..

Please make note of this in any future posts you might make about atheists who do not remain invisible.

[dawg]

125. Wrong.

The correct term for athiests who "speak up" is "citizen". Also acceptable are "American" and "friend".

It's only the book-burners and rabble-rousers that I consider militant or rabid. And that goes for theist and non-theist alike.

I try to be above all that as much as I can, but I'm afraid I may be turning into an anti-dentite, a "rabid" anti-dentite. (I do think they should have their own schools)

:P

[Union Scribe]

194. Got that right.

Wish they'd move together to an island and be dicks to each other there instead of imposing themselves on the rest of us.

[mike_c]

10. rip 'em all up as far as I'm concerned....

I have no use for silly superstitions.

[cali]

15. so you thought it was just fine when the FL minister burned the koran?

[SoCalNative]

22. Yes

Burn all religious texts because they're just works of fiction anyway.

[cali]

24. I detest book burners. The Koran, the bible and other religious texts

are also great works of literature.

[LanternWaste]

70. Hence, all works of fiction should be burned?

Hence, all works of fiction should be burned?

[cordelia]

144. Oh, so you're OK with burning

The Grapes of Wrath, To Kill a Mockingbird, etc.?

Nice.

[Union Scribe]

195. That post was probably more revealing than you wanted it to be. nt

[peace13]

30. People putting emotional charge to an inanimate object is what causes the problem.

Flag..burn it if you want to. Bible...burn it if you want to. If it bothers you, don't look. These are just objects. You can think or believe anything that you want but don't expect anyone else to have the same feelings. The Koran deal was just the same thing. Children, some folks are just children!

It reminds me of a time on the kindergarten playground. We were parent volunteers and a little girl came over to us crying, 'Mikey called me stupid!" The mom who was next to me knelt down and said, 'Well are you?' and the little girl replied, 'No!' Mom says,'Then what are you crying about?' Tears dried and she went skipping off.

Time for the religious folks to dry the tears, and start trying to make this world a better place for everyone. If not, even those of us who choose not to follow a deity will pay the price of your wars.

[JuniperLea]

32. You don't have the right to tell people how they should feel...

The thought police are hopefully a hundred years or so in the future... give it a rest.

[peace13]

49. Feel however you want to.

Hurt feelings? Well some learn the lessons on the playground and others...not so much. Have your feelings but remember others have feeling too. And it wouldn't be very Christian to think your feelings were more important than others.

[peace13]

136. Actually it is just the opposite of what you say.

The point...respect each other for what we are and judge not. Hold a deity if you want but don't demand that others bow to the same. Especially do not judge others.

[cali]

36. look, I'm not suggesting that it be illegal. I'm suggesting it's petty and childish

and well, stupid.

And you're story about the kid on the playground is also stupid. by your brilliant little analysis, bullying is just fine.

Like it or not, most people in this world are emotionally vested in inanimate objects.

[peace13]

129. By the same token it is easy to let bullies spoil your day.

As evidenced here. Have a good one.

[cali]

16. one person's silly superstition is another's deeply held belief.

[LAGC]

23. Fuck 'em.

If people's "deeply held beliefs" aren't strong enough to endure a little ridicule, how strong really are they?

(That goes for certain Muslims getting all upset over a few cartoons, as well.)

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dogtown]

97. Or, cali's deeply held belief

is superstition.

Note, I didn't categorize it as "silly". A belief system that advocates bigotry, violence and hatred as effectively as Christianity isn't silly, it's barbaric and un-evolved.

[cali]

147. I hate to break this to you but I'm not a Christian

and like most religious belief systems, Christianity contains both violence and hatred as well as love and tolerance- although historically those who've used it to perpetrate atrocities outnumber those who have used it for tolerance and love, but that's human nature more than anything else.

[JuniperLea]

38. And you have no right to insult others...

Who might believe.

The level of shallow at DU this morning has hit an all time subterranean low.

[dionysus]

62. it's funny. for all the supposed compassion, hate is alive and well.

hating is bad when republicans do it, certainly, but it's ok to hate;

religious people
businesses (except toyota and apple of course)
smokers
meat eaters
ect.

[JuniperLea]

72. I was just accused in this thread...

Of being a FOX viewer because I was speaking out against the hate.

Of being immature because I should have learned not to have my feelings hurt whilst still on the playground. (For the record, my feelings are just fine. But damn me for being empathetic toward others and speaking out with that empathy.)

But it's okay because these are (self) righteous progressives... argh.

:banghead:

[still_one]

14. Do they really believe that action will move people to their view? The bible can also be considered

loosely a very crude history of a sect of people

[Freddie Stubbs]

17. I wonder how many people will be killed in riots this time:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/world/asia/02afghanistan.html?hp

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

20. Meh. It seems like a big waste of time. I don't believe in any of that stuff. But I don't get

off on shitting on others beliefs as silly as I might think they are.

[dawg]

34. Exactly.

If I didn't believe in God, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to antagonize others who did.

It's not like you can change people's minds this way. If anything, it hardens their opinion and makes them dismiss anything else you might have to say.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

42. Indeed and I also agree with this statement: "That rug really tied the room together."

:P

[Zorra]

25. RW fundie atheists? Is that new?

Don't we have enough RW fundies already?

[seabeyond]

28. they are not sounding a lot different from those they protest against. nt

[JuniperLea]

29. Religious hate and purposefully insulting others...

Is the basis of a lot of death and destruction in this world. Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, Vishnu, Inanna, Zeus and Isis are sobbing uncontrollably.

Burn a Koran, rip pages from a Bible, paint a swastika on a temple... it's all wrong and it's all hate and it should be punished as a hate crime.

This is no better than those asshats that cheered at public hangings in the past, or those cheering this week for someone's execution or death by lack of health insurance.

Pathetic scum.

Edited to say, virtually all of the atheists I know don't care a rat's ass about the Bible and wouldn't waste their time. This doesn't sound right to me at all.

[WildEyedLiberal]

40. Yeah, I don't know a single atheist who would do this

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if some of these fundamentalist atheists are front groups trying to make atheists look like petty intolerant assholes. I am not an atheist, but I have enough atheist friends to know that practically none of them align with the loud angry "new atheist" movement.

[JuniperLea]

54. I wonder the same thing...

The world is full of ugly, hating sock-puppets.

[cleanhippie]

81. Well, yes, its obvious you are not an atheist.

Only believers use the term "fundamental atheist".


What does that even mean, anyway?

[WildEyedLiberal]

193. Reread the OP if you want to know what a fundamentalist atheist is

Fundamentalists cannot tolerate people who believe differently from them. If you don't think there are any atheists who fit that description then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[kestrel91316]

93. You know, I think you might be onto something. It would be just like the fundies

to fake attacks against them.

Remember the guy who would go to protests (anti-abortion, RW crap) and say that somebody shoved him or grabbed his sign and tore it up, or made his little girl cry by doing the same to her? He was faking the whole thing.

Sockpuppets pretending to be militant atheists. It would be right up the RW's alley.

[RebelOne]

122. I am an atheist and I would never think of ripping up the bible.

My philosophy is "to each his own" and "live and let live."

[Bragi]

48. I don't get the hate analogy at all

This is a symbolic act of protest against teachings contained in a particular book. Why is symbolically tearing out the offending pages an act of "hatred" against anyone? If I was to tear out particularly offensive pages from an Ayn Rand novel, then that would be a protest against what that book preaches. I don't see it as an act of hatred.

[peace13]

52. Hate is very popular on Fox .

If you disagree with a person, well they must be hateful.

[cleanhippie]

80. You want to make destroying one's own property a "HATE CRIME"??????

Really?

[rug]

128. What about setting your own wood on fire

after making it into a cross?

[cleanhippie]

137. I think the message sucks, but the activity needs to stay legal

as long as its on one's OWN property, whats the issue?

[Lucian]

198. Thankfully we have something called the First Amendment in this country...

that gives them that right to do that. Otherwise, if you made the laws, people like them would go to jail.

:wtf: :eyes:

[pipi_k]

37. Oh yeah...real smart....

:eyes:

I'm an Agnostic/Atheist and even I think this sucks.

[dawg]

39. South Park was right.

[Coyote_Bandit]

45. Ya know

I respect other people's right to hold whatever religious beliefs thae choose - or none at all.
And I demand the same respect in return.

There's not a whole hell of a lot to distinguish anit-religious zealotry from fundamentalism of all stripes. They only thing this proves is that some athiests - like some Christians - are hateful and intolerant.

[JuniperLea]

65. Intolerant is the perfect way to describe this...

Whatever happened to live and let live? I don't see it as being very progressive, or liberal, to condone this kind of action.

Making fun of people's beliefs is just heinously wrong. Saying stupid shit like some of us learn not to have our feelings hurt on the playground, or saying that it's superstitious bullshit that no one should believe is about as shallow, petty, and hateful as it gets.

I hope the asshats I've put on ignore in this thread aren't waiting around for responses to their ridiculousness.

[Bragi]

47. It's just symbolic. I'm fine with it as a protest. /nt

[socialshockwave]

50. And people wonder why I do not like militant athiests. Game, set, match.

This assault upon Christianity is just that; an assault.

How would they like it if I ripped up whatever book atheists hold dear(Probably On the Origin Of Species)?

[Bragi]

53. Rip up whatever you want

I will accept your act as a symbolic act of protest and not be personally offended. I may disagree with your choices, but that's a matter of debate, not an attack on me. Enjoy.

[Fumesucker]

56. "Militant atheists"?

Is that anything like the "militants" that Obama's drones are constantly bombing in Afghanistan/Pakistan?

Or are you referring to atheists who speak up?

[peace13]

132. Ya know they gotta have everybody hatin' each other or the day isn't complete.

I think of atheists as an unorganized group of thinkers. Usually observing quietly to avoid being labeled as anything. Militant atheists...ya gotta love it!

[Occulus]

75. Good.

Christianity needs a serious assault in this country. That filthy fucking religion calls me an abomination and its adherents have made my life an absolute misery and a hard, hard trial (harder than you or anyone you know will ever face) just for the crime of existing and being who I am.

I hate Christianity and I fear its followers, and for damned fucking good reason. They're known to kill people like me. I can't safely go to certain parts of the country because of them and them alone. I can't get married in my state- ever- because of them. I can't even hold hands with someone I care about in public- let alone share a kiss- because I don't know whether that person over there wearing a cross around their neck will try to "save" me or kill me, or "just" beat me up.

Here's what Christians do to people like me. Go get a good look:

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=960&bih=488&q=christians+gaybash&gbv=2&oq=christians+gaybash&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1533l3802l0l4440l18l15l0l6l6l0l212l1110l2.6.1l9l0#hl=en&gbv=2&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=christian+gaybash+victim&oq=christian+gaybash+victim&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=64174l65126l0l65267l7l7l0l6l0l0l100l100l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1d33e5e841c66c31&biw=960&bih=488

So save us your self-righteous indignation. It's not correct, it's not welcome, and it's bloody fucking offensive.

[Marrah_G]

78. I have to wonder what you think of the pages of the Bible that advocate violence

rape, murder, slavery?

Now I wouldn't go tearing up any book in public, because frankly I dislike public displays. However I will say that I find the religious books of the Abrahamic religions to be filled with violence and hate, especially towards people like myself. And I have to wonder about the character of those people who take those advocations as truth.

[cleanhippie]

82. Hahahahahahaha!

[MNBrewer]

110. That's a book that that people who are called "educated" hold dear

not JUST atheists. LOL

[Lucian]

199. It's within their right to do that if they want.

[KG]

209. assault on christianity?

:rofl:

[mr blur]

215. No such thing -

Just those of us who are sick to death of willfully-ignorant people parading their ridiculous fantasies and demanding that we all respect their mental aberrations. Fuck them all, they can talk to the grown ups when they start living in the real world.

[Bragi]

51. 10 Myths Many Religious People Hold About Atheists, Debunked

This seems to be relevant to this discussion.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/152395/10_myths_many_religious_people_hold_about_atheists%2C_debunked/

[dawg]

57. Here's an article from Cracked.com that actually makes a lot of sense.

10 Things Christians and Athiests Can (And Must) Agree On

http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on_p2.html

[Moosepoop]

167. Thanks for this!

:thumbsup: It was excellent -- everyone should read it.

[dionysus]

58. way to make non believers look like douchebags.

:thumbsdown:

[loyalsister]

59. As an atheist I see this as antithetical to my own ideas

To me I see religions as equally ridiculous appeals. With one no better than the other, none should be treated any better or worse than another. My opposition is to religious bigotry.

I don't care what anyone wants to believe. As a matter of fact, it's very adaptive for many to have beliefs in common and to observe rituals and ceremonies together. IMO The only time it should be disrespected is when ideas are used to justify actions which are intended to cause harm.

This action is an unfair generalization and example of the kind of hate and anger that have escalated differences in beliefs to warfare.

[Swede]

60. Be sure to do it to the Koran,also.

Dolts.

[JuniperLea]

61. Even though this story pisses me off...

I love a thread like this. It lines a lot of ugly up, making it easy to clean out.

[cleanhippie]

83. It sure does. It identifies those that think destroying one's personal property is a HATE CRIME.

Oh wait, that would be you, wouldn't it.

[LanternWaste]

119. self delete- incorrect spot

[NeedleCast]

112. Best Comment on Thread

[SidDithers]

63. Shock value publicity is always crap...

I'm a very firm believer that symbols and ideas don't deserve special protection, just because they're religious, but this is just stupid.

:thumbsdown: to the Backyard Skeptics.

Sid

[Bragi]

64. One good result of this

This will perhaps demonstrate to all that, under the 1st amendment, any American is free to insult any deity of choice, as they wish.

Next time a Terry Jones steps forward to burn a Koran, no-one will be able to plausibly claim that the government can or will step in to stop a Xian text from being destroyed.

[seabeyond]

76. the strong majority of believers were angered by the terry jones event.

it is not a lesson for the vast majority of people. and when not be any more a lesson to those that didnt get it, as this will show this group their similarities to the very people they protest.

what it does, is unite the majority of christians, with the majority of atheists that condemn this exhibition.

[Bragi]

113. Possibly, however...

During the Terry Jones threatened Koran-burning incident, along with all the condemnations of Jones actions, I noted a very strong disinclination of U.S. politicians, people and media to actually make it clear that Jones had a constitutional right to burn whatever book he wanted to burn.

In consequence, there were many people (and media) especially outside the U.S who expressed the belief that the U.S government was "letting" this insult happen to a Koran, and claiming the authorities would not have stood back if a Bible was being desecrated. This view largely went unchallenged.

What this event shows clearly is that no holy book is protected from abuse and insult due to the protections afforded in the 1st amendment. Whatever one thinks of this planned display, I think this is a good lesson for people outside the U.S. to learn, since there will no doubt be more holy book burning incidents in the future, none of which can or should be stopped by government authorities.

That was my point.

[seabeyond]

124. do you see one person on this thread saying they do not have the RIGHT to tear up the bible

i think you would equally find that the same people are consistent in saying they have the right. i am in amarillo texas where we had a nationally made news story of another that was to burn the koran. and it was the christians that went ot the park to protest the man that was to burn the koran. it was them that convinced he not burn it until another young guy stole the koran so he couldn't burn it. then all turned to the kid and told him he did not have the right to steal it.

no, i think your premise is off, and you are seeing this to reflect your agenda, not the reality.

and if world wide, by saying they have the right to do it, but a wrong in doing it is interpreted as encouragement, then shame on the world that perceives that.

[Bragi]

158. Fair enough...

I think there's room for respectful discussion. I certainly agree with you on this: if world wide, by saying they (the book burners) have the right to do it, but a(re) wrong in doing it, is interpreted as encouragement, then shame on the world that perceives that.

It is because I agree with that, that I was quite disturbed by the thunderous silence about 1st amendment rights during the Jones Koran-burning threat fiasco.

I watched this drama unfold quite closely in the media, and I recall that barely a word was said by anyone consequential to make it clear to the world that an American citizen actually has a constitutional right to be offensive. It was a though everyone was supposed to already know that.

In my view, the great silence around the meaning of the 1st amendment helped to support the view being expressed by many unfriendly voices abroad that if the U.S government did not stop Jones from doing what he threatened to do, then this meant they were in fact endorsing his actions.

Since a lot of people still think that, I think it isn't a bad thing to occasionally break from the silence around the meaning of the constitutional right to free speech, so that people everywhere are reminded that free speech includes the right to offend and insult any set of religious beliefs, deities, whatever.

[seabeyond]

169. there are a lot of situations

i would not want a law to dictate. but i would want a social pressure to arise. it is the balance of what those are and are not that is the tough one.

so, though i would want all to have the right to burn a book (and that does not do it for me with any book, i love all books), i would want people to abhor and speak out against the action, too.

[Bragi]

173. No disagreement from me /nt

[seabeyond]

175. now, lol

as far as my personal perspective of ripping up the bible? it is a book. just a book. and in the religion, it professes one would be understanding of the emotions behind the ripping up, and love anyway. turn the other cheek. embrace. and forgive, without even the need to express.

not a big deal.

does nothing to ones faith

and i never felt that christ needed to be defended. if one has faith of an all powerful, what???? what kind of defense is needed. if one has belief, christ is in all hearts, and already knows and understand, so where does that leave a mere person.

so for me, this is more for those with belief, than those that rip up the bible.

higher vibrations in all things.

[cleanhippie]

177. I see it!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1950542&mesg_id=1950663

And I have responded to them. They want to see this type of thing labeled a "hate crime" and be a criminal offense.


:puke:

[seabeyond]

179. i guess you do. that being said, we would hardly make it a crime for applauding death

surely.

on edit... thinking about painting a swastika would be vandalism, but would they add a hate crime to that? i believe they do. so interesting, what that poster is saying.

[cleanhippie]

185. I understand the sentiment that J L is trying to convey...

but s/he seems to have confused being offended by another's actions as a criminal offense.


In THIS case, as was the case with Terry Jones, both of the asswipes OWNED the book they wanted to destroy, and THAT is not a crime, no matter HOW offensive one finds it. Everything beyond that in this kerfuffle is nonsense.....

[MineralMan]

66. Morons.

I'm an atheist, and have been for 45 years. I would not do such a thing under any circumstances. There is absolutely no point to it. I don't give a damn what other people believe. It is behavior that concerns me. This behavior is moronic.

[Chorophyll]

67. Ripping up *any* book makes you look like a narrow-minded idiot.

Ripping a book is not so different from burning a book, which in turn is like burning an effigy. I would expect better of people who claim to be "rational."

[LanternWaste]

68. I believe many people think that every one of the laws written in the Old Testament

I believe many people think that every one of the laws written in the Old Testament were intended to be applied to everyone regardless.

However, reading the books of the law, for example Leviticus, one begins to realize a few salient points...

Leviticus was written by one of the twelve tribes-- the tribe Levi, or the Levites, the tribe that was charged with developing and maintaining law codes. When they wrote these codes, they addressed three specific audiences, each individually-- and we see that many of the laws were written only to the Levites themselves... rules specifically for their priesthood (many of the dress and dietary codes fall here), and were not relevant to anyone else.

The second audience, the entire Jewish people as a whole, were also addressed with additional, national laws, but were not expected to follow the laws of the priestly cast. A third audience was humanity as a whole, in which the laws are much broader, much more general, and much less restrictive.



Regardless, tear up a book, burn it, bury it, dismiss it, ignore it, or read it; I imagine that's the individual prerogative... although one which appears to illustrate the character of the person doing the tearing rather than the substance of what appears to be a incorrect inference of textual criticism.

[Hosnon]

69. Unnecessary provocation.

Weak agnostic here.

[Bragi]

71. Destroying a book that advocates stoning women isn't hateful

I'd call it an act of compassion.

[seabeyond]

77. lol, then again there are those that will work really hard to validate this

event, lol, much like those that burned the koran.

your posts are a hoot.... a wonderful look see.

[backscatter712]

73. Meh. It's a book full of fairy tales.

The sooner people figure out they don't have to get their panties in a twist over a work of fiction, the better.

[Arugula Latte]

74. To really make the point, they should encourage people to read that silly book cover to cover

The heaps of stupid, ridiculous stuff in there that people are supposed to swallow is truly eye-opening.

[backscatter712]

101. That's the true way to turn a Christian into an atheist.

Notice how bible study groups always have you flipping back and forth, only reading the light & fluffy parts?

Try reading it cover-to-cover.

[efhmc]

109. Yes and have to see it in its context. I like your idea.

It's my belief that many people who called themselves followers of Christ have no earthly idea what he was advocating. If they did, they would run screaming from their bigoted churches.

[cleanhippie]

79. As a non-believer, allow me to call these people total fuckwads.

Not that I think the bible, or any other "sacred" text deserves any more special treatment or respect than is due a Harlequin Romance novel, but using it as a prop to get some attention because you KNOW its gonna piss some folks off, means you are a fuckwad.

[rug]

126. +1

[cleanhippie]

139. See rug, we can be on the same page.

[Dorian Gray]

150. I respect that you believe it doesn't deserve more

respect than a Harlequin Romance novel. I wouldn't deign to rip up one of those on public steps, denouncing them, either. Though I think that they are stupid and poorly written, I would not want to offend the many romance fans for my own self satisfaction.

[Throd]

86. The main reason I keep my atheism under wraps is not to be associated with these imbeciles.

[Fumesucker]

104. And the main reason I keep my atheism under wraps is I got tired of my property being vandalized..

Funny, innit?

[Throd]

108. No, not really. It just shows there are major assholes on both sides of the issue.

[Bragi]

114. False equivalency

When was the last time you heard someone in the U.S say they were afraid of being assaulted if they displayed Xian symbols?

[Throd]

135. Churches are vandalized all the time

95% of it is probably just jerk-off teenagers looking for kicks, but still it happens.

I think these people in HB are a tiny minority of atheists, but they do immense damage to the brand.

I have equal disdain for dogmatic atheists and fundie Christians.

[Fumesucker]

140. There is no "atheist brand"..

The only thing atheists have in common is that they believe in one less religion than the vast majority of theists.

[Throd]

149. If that were true, I wouldn't be pissed at those jack-offs in HB

You have been around here long enough to see that if you identify with a certain credo other people will hitch you to extremists you have nothing in common with. It is intellectually dishonest and lazy, but it is all too common.

The only sticker I put on my cars are the registration tags. Unfortunately some idiot will find even the most innocuous sentiment offensive and will vandalize your car.

[Fumesucker]

151. It's not like I had a car that would attract the average vandal..

I've had a few quite nice cars, this one certainly was not one of them..

As I said, three times in about six months with the Darwin Fish, never before or since without it.

Did I mention that about every third car in my area has some form of Christian symbol?

[Throd]

152. It wasn't the car. It was what was on the car.

I'm sorry that happened to you. I used to live in a neighborhood where you couldn't own anything nice because it would get stolen or vandalized. I think you and I are in agreement that some Christians can be the most hypocritical and intolerant a-holes available. Unfortunatley, the minority of atheists cut from the same cloth get most of the attention.

[cleanhippie]

180. You do realize that you seem to have no idea what you are talking about, right?

Just what the fuck is a "dogmatic atheist" anyway? Please elaborate...

[Throd]

184. Thank you.

They would be perpetually angry and tiresome folk who hate religion and never let you or anyone else forget it.

[cleanhippie]

186. and just what is "dogmatic" about that?

[Throd]

189. It just plain makes everyone's ass tired.

Nobody invites angry atheist guy to the party.

[cleanhippie]

216. So you admit it's not dogmatic at all and that you really don't know what you're talking about.

It all makes sense now.

[Fumesucker]

138. Actually yes really..

I put one of those little Darwin Fish symbols on my car, in about six months it was severely keyed three times.

I've never had my car vandalized before or since once I took the Darwin Fish off.

[LanternWaste]

156. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc...

"I've never had my car vandalized before or since once I took the Darwin Fish off..."

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

[Fumesucker]

166. Atheist signs are regularly vandalized..

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/02/17/Atheist-billboard-vandalized/UPI-73071266387409/

http://www.facepunch.com/threads/961816-Christians-Aren-t-That-Creative-Vandalize-Atheist-Sign






And by the way, that's propter hoc, not prompter.

I'm sixtysomething years old, I've had my car vandalized three times in my life. Oddly enough all three instances of vandalism against my car were during a six month period when I happened to have a Darwin Fish on it.

Evidently I'm not that strong a coincidence theorist.

ETA: Not to mention I've heard more than a few stories here on DU of people being accosted by wingnuts in their cars just for things like an Obama sticker or a Democratic Party sticker.

[cleanhippie]

178. Except that the asshole in THIS story are destroying THEIR OWN PROPERTY.

Which, the last time I checked, was still legal in all 50 states...

[Throd]

187. I support their right to do that. I just think it is counterproductive.

[ChandlerJr]

87. Just great. Now the "Angry Beards" will be setting fire to

their buggies and looting the granaries.

[stockholmer]

121. lulz

:thumbsup:

[negativenihil]

91. oh jeez.

way to make Atheists look bad. This is NOT the way to win hearts and minds....

[krabigirl]

92. Meh, as a non-religious person, holy books don't rile me up.

The right wing Christian republican death cult, well, that's another thing entirely. I wish groups like this would just focus on that really. I don't care what book people believe in.

[ProfessorGAC]

95. While I Agree In Principle. . .

. . .it's the people who use the holy books as bludgeons that that rile me up.

Got a holy book? Read it and keep it holy. Don't use it as some sort of weapon.
GAC

[sabrina 1]

96. It's just as stupid as the Koran burners. What do they hope to

accomplish? Those who can think already know there are parts of all 'holy books' that are immoral by today's standards, and we know that real Christians follow the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus.

Way to turn people against Atheists, you wonder who put them up to this.

I also felt that the Koran burning pastor was being supported by Islamaphobes hoping to incite Muslims to violence and therefore cause more hatred and fear.

[Initech]

105. Exactly.

[Zephie]

98. Nope, no better than christians burning a koran.

It IS hateful and wrong. Despite my distaste for the actions of the evangelical christian population, and indeed the bible, I cannot support this.

[MNBrewer]

100. The great political, religious philosopher Tim Minchin has this to say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5iXd5b25MA

[hifiguy]

106. This longtime atheist sez: "Dopey!"

The best way to deal with the religious is to refute them with logic and reason a la Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris. You might even make them think or gain a convert, though nothing works with the cement-headed totalitarian fundies and literalists. But generally those people are too dumb to tie their own shoes or use toilet paper that has no instructions printed on it.

edit for typo.

[NeedleCast]

107. Stupid Thing To Do

Says this atheist.

[leftyohiolib]

111. which book the old or the new?

[taught_me_patience]

118. This is a terrible PR stunt

destined to backfire.

[stockholmer]

120. these are agent provocateurs

As an atheist myself, this action is pure rubbish. I don't care what others believe in, as long as they leave their religion out of any dealings with me.

[KOfan]

123. Do the Koran and impress me!

Whatever, they are expressing their freedom to do so. Have fun!

[polly7]

127. I have no problem with ripping out those pages, they're horrible, Atheists are

being more and more associated with evil, worthless people with no morals ...... show the Bible for what it is - a book written by man that has many hateful things in it and should not be used to judge others by.

What's good for the goose .....

Disclaimer: I do respect all those people who use their Holy Books for good.

[MerryBlooms]

130. The Bible is a reflection of all man

indecisive, jealous, loving, judgemental, curious, hateful, fearful, etc...

Rip any pages out you want, it won't change that reflection until our heads and hearts see us for what we truly are and become all accepting and loving. We're lifetimes away from total acceptance.

[polly7]

131. Baloney. all man isn't automatically wired to stone 'adultrous' women,

or any of the other evil things included in the Bible. Those pages do not reflect who 'we are' ...... just what the bigoted, cruel zealots who wrote them were.

[dawg]

134. She was guilty, you know.

They were Biblically within their rights to stone her. It was also in keeping with the law of the times.

It was only the outspoken young radical who disagreed.

He took a stick, and drew in the sand. And then he had a suggestion. Let the man who had not sinned be the one to cast the first stone.

He shamed them all, and they all eventually slinked away.


That nice young man got killed for doing things like that. But I won't forget what he stood for.

[peace13]

142. He was brave and good and would not last a minute on our streets today!

That is why it was good when we had laws and did not have to let the Bible decide what our rights were. Unfortunately we are losing ground to the Supreme Court and Bible ways. We now have religion telling us what we can do with our bodies. Soon we may be back to pelting each other with rocks or worse. I miss my rights!

[MerryBlooms]

143. I respectfully disagree

Man could be and was 'evil', as you say, before the Bible.

[polly7]

145. Oh, absolutely. Not many of us though need a book to control ourselves.

I just get so sick and tired of certain Christians using the Bible to paint atheists and others as bad, uneducated, immoral people undeserving of the good things that they, as devoted Bible followers, are. So point out the flaws in the Bible. Let them see their hypocrisy.

If they'd leave those they're demonizing, alone ...... there wouldn't be publicity stunts like this.

[MerryBlooms]

154. Demonizing/dehumanizing

Yes, I think we're on the same page.

I do it myself at times - like I called Rush Limbaugh, Limpballs in a post today. My knee-jerk reaction got the best of me and that's on me.

You have a wonderful weekend, kick your heels up and enjoy these last long days - winter's just around the corner. :)

[polly7]

160. You, too! Yes, it's been freezing here at night for a week now. Sad to see summer end. nt.

[Brigid]

141. Whatever.

As long as they don't snatch mine from my hands and tear it up, I don't care what they do. Let them make fools of themselves if they want to. That doesn't obligate me to do the same.

[Dorian Gray]

148. Personally

I don't give a crap if people rip up a bible. It's rude, sure. I wouldn't deign to rip up any religious text of another faith. I wouldn't deign to rip up a People Magazine that belonged to someone else just to make some sort of statement. What's the point? It only will anger other people to show that much disrespect for something that they do respect. Or maybe even treasure. JMO

[immoderate]

153. I would not do it, but there are those who want to attract attention.

Consider that people could attend this and be amazed that no divine lightning rains down. I know some of those people. But nothing would change their minds. Exceptions? It happens. It's a publicity stunt.

My feeling is there is enough that I say that will piss some people off that I don't have to do anything just to piss them off. I don't say anything that will piss anybody off that I don't have to. (Example: This product is not acceptable. It must be expressed.) I have been, but always pass on, invitations to participating in a friendly game of "Bible toss."

Bible is a book, and the best source of whatever it is that the Bible says. Shouldn't destroy books. Entropy. Chaos. The mythology of an enduring culture. Our politics splits on how to read it.

--imm

[GOPBasher]

155. I'm an atheist and that is NOT the way to go!

Purposely insulting members of any particular religion is wrong, regardless of who it's done by. I get offended when Christians purposely insult me, and it's no better when it's the other way around. (This behavior also hurts us more than helps us.)

[rug]

157. Why not take a shit and wipe their asses with the pages?

Amateurs.

[peace13]

161. It's funny that you bring this up because...

last night I had a vision and my lord told me to record it on toilet paper and then he said, 'Let man never soil toilet paper again in remembrance of me.' Do you think anyone will listen to me today?

All kidding aside I would just like to be able to think as I wish and be respected for it as I respect others. I don't want to kill or be killed for someone else's beliefs.

[cleanhippie]

181. Sure, why not?

[Posteritatis]

159. No real issues with atheism, but not that fond of assholes. (nt)

[Tom Ripley]

163. I hope they don't move on to animal abuse involving unicorns

[jmowreader]

164. This is totally stupid...

Standing there taking turns reading, aloud, all the wicked shit in the Bible would be more fun.

[JuniperLea]

170. I have regular scripture arguments with family...

We went to the same church, same Sunday school, listened to the same preachers, read the same Bible... yet I still believe Jesus had some great ideas about how to treat people and life... seems I missed all the parts about judging people and being greedy.

I love scriptural debate... The Old Testament was pretty much changed by what Jesus taught... until it becomes convenient for some.

[NICO9000]

165. Not cool

I'm an atheist, but even a heathen like myself can see this as a futile and stupid gesture. Doing it in rethug Orange County is even dumber.

[Bluebear]

168. What an ignorant final sentence

[Ignis]

171. Why is it that so few of those excoriating "militiant athiests"...

Know how to spell the very thing they hate so much? :shrug:

[LAGC]

172. Maybe they're referring to atheist militias.

Evil gun-toters one and all.

:evilgrin:

[Raine]

174. DISGRACEFUL ... every bit as repulsive as RW fundies destroying the Koran

I think it's wrong to destroy something that has such meaning to others, DISGUSTING.

[cleanhippie]

183. Even if its your property?

[Warren DeMontague]

176. if you buy the book, you can do whatever you want with it.

It's your book.

[saras]

188. They're more useful if you just cut out the middle of the pages and keep your drugs there...

Then you've still got the book, so to speak, without all the hateful content, and with something better inside.

[cordelia]

190. Great idea! For the God Delusion.

[lynne]

196. Not a way to win friends or influence people -

- but the desired result isn't to influence anyone. The desire is to shock. It succeeds there but achieves nothing else.

Why not just burn the books and be done with it? Oh, yeah . . . that's been done before.

[Lucian]

197. I'm glad we have something called Freedom of Speech.

They have that right to do that.

And I would be out there with them, supporting their right to do that.

And as far as I'm concerned, they can rip up every damn religious book out there.

[rationalcalgarian]

200. I am a devout atheist

(heh-heh... feels funny saying that)

But I feel this is the wrong way to go. Not because I think religion deserves respect (it doesn't) but because being antagonistic never convinced anyone. I have religious friends and I treat them like my alcoholic friends; they are dependent on a drug and no brow-beating on my part is going to get them to stop. I would no more rip up bible pages in front of my christian friends as I would smash my alcoholic friends' whiskey bottles. What is it going to do? It will make them grab a stronger hold on their dependence.
Instead, I have made it clear to my friends where I stand and that I am there for them when they want to get clean. No lectures, no moralizing. Just the knowledge that I am here for them when they are ready to take that big step.
It is not a world-changing strategy, but it works for my little part of it.

[Liquorice]

201. Zealotry and hate are some of the ugliest human traits. nt

[ohheckyeah]

203. As a Christian I have to say that I don't think

this action will accomplish anything good, but maybe that isn't the point. Maybe it is an act of complete and utter frustration and THAT I can understand. I find myself angry and frustrated with Old Testament Christians to the point I would at times like to take the Bible and knock them over the head with it. Not very Christian of me, but it's how I feel.

I'm not offended by this action. Part of me would like to join in. So, I don't think it's the smartest thing to do but I understand it.

[Creideiki]

204. I should care...why?

What manufactured outrage over a non-issue.

[Behind the Aegis]

205. IMO...because it is disrespectful.

It doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed, nor does it justify any violence which may occur after. Think about someone using the tern "that's so gay!". Earth-shattering? No, we both know it isn't, but we also know it is disrespectful and it does cause other problems (low self-esteem in our youth (and sometimes our not-so-youth)). That is, of course, my opinion.

(:hi: haven't seen you in a month of Tuesdays!)

[Creideiki]

211. It can't be any worse than the damage that King James did to the Bible

Each Bible is not ascribed some holy significance. Even Martin Luther (I was raised Missouri Synod (aka Bible thumping) Lutheran) wasn't ascribing some particularly holy significance to the book itself (the writings inside, as he was a literalist nutjob on some things), but not the book. We were even warned against Bibolatry (worshiping the Bible instead of the Lord.)

This is different from some other religions. I'd be far more worried if someone were doing this to a Koran because the Muslim faith teaches that each book is sacred. I don't get it, but I can be respectful. In this case, the people that are getting offended need to watch out for Bibolatry. You are called to serve God and Jesus His Son, and the Holy Ghost. Not some book.

[ipaint]

206. I wish there had been more public displays of dissent when I was a kid

and this religion was being shoved down my throat by the adults in my life. I didn't believe a word of it back then. Would have been nice to know I wasn't alone.
This group also puts up billboards questioning belief in god. Would have loved to have seen one of those as a kid too.

[SkyDaddy7]

208. Not saying this is the way to go BUT...

No one EVER complains when it comes to Atheist being labelled immoral & un-American. Atheist are the most hated group in America even before they began their public stance against religion not long ago. Oh well.

[philly_bob]

210. I'm an atheist too. Their point is valid, but they are narcissistic fools. (nt)

[HappyMe]

212. While they do have the right to do this,

I find it stupid and disrespectful.

The destruction of any book is incredibly backwards to say the least.

Ripping pages out of the Bible isn't going to change my faith at all. Neither is calling God a spaghetti monster or superstition.

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taverner]

214. Meh - I feel their pain

Wouldn't be my strategy

I would point them to the Skeptics Annotated Bible

But that's just me