I talked to my father this afternoon about the Reno air race.

[MineralMan]

He was a B-17 pilot in WWII. His response: "I have never been to an air show or race. They are simply too dangerous and spectators should not be allowed at them. There are old pilots, and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."

I must have gotten that philosophy genetically, because I have always avoided such events for the same reasons. Normally spectators are not hurt at these things, but there have been many pilots lost and, occasionally, spectators are hurt. It just isn't worth the risk, it seems to me.

[Shagbark Hickory]

1. The faa shouldn't allow air shows to go on. Reno was just one of 2 or 3 other airshow crashes this

past week.

[MineralMan]

5. Well, Reno isn't an air show. It's a race.

But, I know what you're saying. I love to visit airports where there is a display of vintage aircraft, but I will not attend a show where there is acrobatic flying or any such thing. Even military flying teams have crashes. Some of them have injured non-participants. Such activities are unsafe by their nature, it seems to me.

[Shagbark Hickory]

12. Or to be more reasonable, if they can identify a common cause that leads these planes to crash ...

and prohibit that, then maybe. But something tells me that acrobatic flying in general is unsafe and a bad idea.

[MineralMan]

13. I don't know if there is a common cause in these accidents.

I doubt it. Everything from mechanical failures to pilot error, and even medical emergencies have been involved in such crashes. Normal aircraft operations, however, does not expose spectators to such risks, in almost all cases. I don't care what others do, but I do not attend such events.

[bluerum]

29. The common cause is pushing human and mechanical capabilities past all reasonable levels.

There is danger and high probability of an accident happening. Not rocket science. This a soap box derby syndrome on mega steroids.

[hlthe2b]

2. I've gone to an airshow, but no trick flying--no racing...

Just to see the variety of old time planes... I loved the biplanes and the WWII vintage. I never had a desire to see someone performing death defying stunts. I would be happy just to see them flown as intended--then get to see them up close. Maybe the old flying costumes or uniforms.

Yeah, I don't get the appeal, but then, I wouldn't put my life at risk to rubber neck a grizzly crash along the highway. Lots of folks would, though. :shrug:

[Historic NY]

11. Me too, accidents happen but its not like NASCAR where people wait for wrecks.

[Shagbark Hickory]

33. I agree. It would be a treat just to see the aircraft and maybe even board them.

Death defying stunts are not required.

[Swede]

3. Also,stay off freeways.

Thousands die on them every year.

[MineralMan]

6. Not a good comparison.

Not at all. On the freeway, I am in control of my vehicle. I control nothing at an air show or race.

[JI7]

9. well, you can't control the other vehicles which could kill you

it would all depend on how often these things happen at the air show. you can decide whether to attend the air show .

[MineralMan]

10. I can control my vehicle and drive defensively at all times.

Yes, I can choose whether to attend an air show or not. I have always chosen not to do so.

[Shagbark Hickory]

31. There are no acrobatic driving displays on the freeways.

Except in Miami.

[Ptah]

4. A little off topic, but it reminded me of the B-52 crash at Fairchild.

My USAF time was avionics on the B-52.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fairchild_Air_Force_Base_B-52_crash

[MineralMan]

7. I remember that incident well. Flying a B-52 beyond its design

capabilities is a reckless act. It is not an aerobatic aircraft in any way.

[Historic NY]

14. I recall the incident also....the pilot was a hot dog (nut)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJb08ZzejAA

he kept going tighter and tighter.

[MineralMan]

15. So it seems, based on the Wikipedia account.

A pity for the crew on board. They didn't have a chance.

[Ptah]

23. The crew on board was there partly because of reports of his hotdogging

if I remember correctly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Way too loud for me.

We lived about a mile from an old air base back in the 80s. They had an air show once a year and the noise was deafening. I never had any desire to go up there for the actual show. Can't imagine how loud it must have been.

[tularetom]

16. 75 year old pilot flying a 65 year old aircraft

What could possibly go wrong?

[MineralMan]

19. Yes, that struck me, too. And flying a highly-modified, way

overpowered aircraft at that. Those racing P-51s are awesome, but are way beyond design specifications. Lots of 75 year olds, too, are qualified to pilot planes, but a moment's lapse can result in disaster. I'm 66, and I would never take any such risks. I used to race cars. I don't do that any longer.

[tularetom]

26. I gave up flying 15 years ago at age 55

Not because i felt my reflexes were slowing down. I lost my left eye in a hunting accident.

I wouldn't trust myself at the controls of even a light aircraft at this point. I realize not everyone ages at the same rate but you aren't the same at age 75 that you were even ten years earlier.

[sandyj999]

17. Ramstein Air Show

I remember that happening in 1988 and at least 70 people died. It just isn't the way I would want my life to end.

[pintobean]

18. It's a good thing your dad doesn't

get to decide. I appreciate his service, but that just seems like a weird thing to say, for someone who has fought for freedom.

[MineralMan]

21. My father is an eminently sensible man. His service was

done during WWII. He managed to bring his crews home after every mission, even one where the B-17 was heavily damaged. That was because he was a sensible man even then. Fighting for freedom does not necessarily mean being reckless. The slogan he used regarding old bold pilots was one repeated by flying instructors then, and now. It represents the truth.

He isn't deciding anything except for himself. He refuses to attend such events, and believes they shouldn't take place. He does nothing to make that second belief a fact. It is his opinion. Free men hold opinions.

[pintobean]

25. Oh. I forgot about

your get out of jail free card. I wasn't knocking the man and he's certainly entitled to his opinion. All I had to go on was the way you put it in the OP.
"They are simply too dangerous and spectators should not be allowed at them"

[JanMichael]

35. edited

sorry.

[tridim]

20. The Red Bull air races are safer, at least for the spectators

Most of them are over bodies of water well away from the spectators, and the planes are state of the art. Vintage races don't make much sense to me.

I'm an RC pilot, so I know that things can easily go wrong very quickly. I never fly around people, and if people approach me as I'm flying I land.

[MineralMan]

22. Very sensible, in both cases.

My dad would approve, I'm sure.

[SlimJimmy]

24. I agree with the sentiment of your Dad. There are no old, bold pilots.

[Lasher]

27. An airshow is like a NASCAR race with the bleachers on the race track.

The day after the Nevada tragedy there was another airshow disaster in West Virginia.

West Virginia air show cancels second day of events after crash



(CNN) -- Events at a West Virginia air show were canceled for a second day Sunday after a crash a day earlier that killed a stunt pilot, show organizers said.

No one on the ground was injured in the crash Saturday.

Investigators with the National Transportation Safety Board arrived in Martinsburg on Sunday to begin piecing together what went wrong.

The crash occurred about five minutes into a planned 15-minute flight, said NTSB investigator Tim Monville.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/09/18/west.virginia.plane.crash/

It's a good thing this fireball didn't wipe out any spectators.

[fishwax]

28. I haven't been to an air show in years, but used to love them as a kid

There was a great air show in the town where I grew up, and I lived just across a couple of fields from the airport, so my brother and I would always walk to the grounds to see the equipment; tour the old planes; and get free bumper stickers, posters, etc. from the military branches, since they were a big recruiting scene. Then we'd head home, climb up on our roof, and watch the Blue Angels from there. Good times.

I disagree with your father that spectators shouldn't be allowed, though as I said I haven't been to one in years. Maybe one of these days I'll get to one again.

[rsmith6621]

30. YOU SHOULDNT DRIVE A CAR EITHER......UNREC

There is a multitude more danger driving to an airshow than the airshow itself...How many people die annually at airshows worldwide.. What a BULLSHIT FEAR mongering argument for not attending airshows..

[Shagbark Hickory]

32. Why not? Unlike with air shows, "acrobatic" driving could end you up behind bars. n/t

[Xithras]

34. One great thing about air shows...

People who are scared of a one in a million chance of harm can easily avoid that chance by not going to them.

Busybodies shouldn't be using federal power to prohibit people from engaging in potentially risky activities, when they willingly accept those risks as part of their entertainment.

I've been going to airshows since I was a kid, and have taken my own children to more than a dozen since they were babies. In all those years, I have only witnessed a single crash, which was non-fatal for the pilot, and which didn't come down anywhere near the audience. I freely acknowledge that there's a slight risk, but that's my risk to take.

[bvar22]

36. I've been to the Blue Angels a bunch of times,

saw the Thunderbirds once,
attended the Air Show at Oshkosh once.

They were ALL awesome.
Everybody should see the Blue Angels at least once.
Standing on the edge of the runway, and watching those guys precision fly those beautiful, thundering, streaking jets almost makes me feel like all that money we spent on these WEAPONS was worthwhile.

The Blue Angels Airshow is the Greatest FREE SHOW on Earth.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather one should skid across the Finish Line sideways, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, pieces falling off, and screaming "WOW! What a ride!"

"Live a little,
be a gypsy,
get around."

You are more likely to be injured or killed in your bathroom than at an airshow.

To each their own.
I won't save a spot for you.

[shanti]

40. the blue angels are the best

better than the thunderbirds, imo. we have air shows yearly here in sacramento. in the past, the blue angles have flown so low that it made the windows rattle! very thrilling! they don't do that anymore though, probably too many complaints. i grew up with air shows as dad was an AF lifer.

[cherokeeprogressive]

37. In '89 95 people died and 766 were injured at ONE football match in England.

How many years of Air Shows go by without that many deaths or injuries?

[kwassa]

41. There have been very substantial deaths at airshows

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/us/reno-air-show-crash.html

Among the worst came on July 27, 2002, when 77 people were killed and 543 injured after a military jet flew into a crowd of spectators and exploded at an air show at the Sknyliv Air Base in Ukraine. The pilots ejected from the aircraft and survived. In August 1988, 70 people were killed during a show at the United States air base in Ramstein, West Germany, when three jets from an Italian stunt-flying team collided and crashed into the crowd. Hundreds among the 350,000 spectators were severely injured.

[KT2000]

38. This one pisses me off

I just do not believe old aircraft should be used in races. I know there are old engineers that are shaking their heads over this.

The aircraft was manufactured to meet certain specifications with established limitations. This was done by engineers who knew their stuff and cared deeply that their work had to be good because people would die if they made mistakes.
When you start screwing around with the original product to make it go faster, look better, someone better start asking questions such as what are the engineer's qualifications, are there backups for part failures, etc.

My dad was an old time Boeing engineer and we had many in our neighborhood. They took their jobs more seriously then and they went through horrible times when there was an accident with one of their planes. They did not make toys. They knew the limitations and always used caution and at that time - triple backups. They always knew that it was about the lives of human beings.

Racing antique/vintage aircraft for an audience is idiocy and should be stopped.

[Odin2005]

39. We have an airshow in Fargo every other year and I love it.

It's a risk you take. I refuse to live in a bubble just because of "mights" and Maybes"