Does everyone see how easy it was to put the Repubs on the defensive?

[kentuck]

Just talk about raising taxes on the millionaires.

What took so long? Almost instantly, the Repubs stop talking about the huge deficits and start talking about tax increases.

Paul Ryan, the little zipper-lip from Wisconsin called it "class warfare".

Class warfare! Is he kidding!? The top 400 families in America have more wealth than the bottom 150,000,000 and he thinks it is "class warfare"? Well, it is, but not the way he thinks. That little weasel should be flipping burgers at Burger King.

Why did the President take so long? Is this just a political ploy to win the next election or is he serious? All the polls for quite some time show a good majority favor raising taxes on the wealthy.

Since the wealthiest corporations are hoarding over $2 trillion dollars, paying taxes on that money will have little or no impact on whether or not jobs are created.

The Repubs are finally on the defensive. This is where they should have been for the last 3 years but political maneuvering in search of the holy grail of bi-partisanship put the President and the Democrats on the defensive and weakened our Party. We shall see if this is for real?

[phleshdef]

1. Stop pretending like Obama hasn't been talking about raising taxes on the rich since day 1.

"Why did the President take so long?" my ass. You know thats not how it went down.

[mmonk]

2. I guess the problem was extending the Bush tax cuts.

Tends to erase any message about raising them.

[phleshdef]

8. Only in the minds of those who want to believe the fallacy that Obama doesn't want to raise them.

He didn't want to raise them as much as he wanted to keep middle class tax level stable or as much as he wanted to keep unemployment extended. Those elements of the liberal agenda took precedence.

[mmonk]

12. Obama'a mistake which may turn out to be politically fatal was to embrace

the Republican ideas that budget problems are what we should concentrate on in an economy that has no demand and high unemployment. That and trying to pretend there is bipartisanship with Republicans as if they are acting in good faith.

[phleshdef]

13. Its never a "Republican idea" to work on a problem that actually exists.

George Bush caused a massive deficit. Its real. And if we don't do something about it, the economy will in fact get worse. Doing something does not mean we have to cut the deficit now. It means we have to have a path in place to cut it in the near future. We should be able to do that and concentrate on jobs at the same time. The 2 need not cancel each other out.

[mmonk]

19. I tend to agree with my education in economics and people like Krugman, Galbraith, etc.

[phleshdef]

20. Agreeing with them has nothing to do with what does or does not constitute a Republican idea.

No party owns a license on being the party of problem solving, but if one did, it would be the Democrats. And I don't see Krugman denying that we have a deficit or that its a problem. Krugman just says we shouldn't cut domestic spending, instead we should do the opposite. But he never once has said the deficit should just be ignored.

Look, you made the crazy claim that cutting the deficit is a Republican idea. I'm just pointing out how thats bullshit. No amount of economic education you may or may not have is going to change that.

[mmonk]

23. Cutting the deficit in an high unemployment economy with no demand

as a priority is generally associated with Republicans in the modern era. And Milton Freidman maybe. Especially as it relates to cutting government services.

[phleshdef]

27. Which is why most of the proposed cuts don't kick in till later.

Do you have a point?

[girl gone mad]

25. Cutting the government deficit in the midst of debt deleveraging is a stupid idea.

The deficit should be ignored while unemployment is high. If the economy turns around and inflation becomes a threat, then we can address the deficit.

[phleshdef]

28. If we don't show a plan to cut the deficit, our credit rating could get even worse...

...this will drive interest rates sky high which will fuck the unemployed and everyone else over a whole lot more. So no, your theory is a pile of shit. While I don't think any big spending cuts should kick in for a few more years, we HAVE to have some kind of real deficit reduction plan on the books soon. There is no getting around it. It was ignored for far too long. The fact that you think it should be ignored makes me even more glad that someone like Obama is running the country and not someone like you.

[girl gone mad]

29. Our credit rating is irrelevant.

We have a sovereign currency. We don't need to borrow.

Look at Japan's rating. Years of ratings downgrades have not impacted their ability to borrow at low rates one iota.

What's more, the Fed can control interest rates fairly easily, particularly over the short term.

Bottom line: interest rates are not an issue. At all.

Modern monentary theory is not a "pile of shit". It's the only economic model that's consistently made valid predictions over the last decade. Like it or not, it's the most accurate description we currently have of our modern macroeconomic system.

If someone like me were running the economy, our unemployment would not be near 20%.

[phleshdef]

30. Spare me the Ron Paul-esque nonsense. We operate as a part of the global economy.

There is no turning back from that, ever. Thats the direction the world is going. Our credit rating is not even in the slightest irrelevant. You are a fool.

[girl gone mad]

31. WTF does Ron Paul have to do with it?

If our credit rating is so important, why did it get cheaper for us to borrow after we were downgraded?

Where are the bond vigilantes, refusing to buy US bonds and forcing up rates because our debt is so "risky"?

Maybe its time for you to admit that people who trade in these markets actually know more than you do. A sovereign currency government can only default on its own-currency denominated debt obligations by choice.

[phleshdef]

32. Um. We DIDN'T default. We raised the debt ceiling.

Because that whole thing got worked out (even if it was in a really shitty way), the crap with the bond vigilantes never came to pass. Had we actually defaulted and stopped paying our bills, it would have been a whole lot worse.

I don't think S&P was taken particularly serious on their downgrade because it was based on a bogus political observation on their part. But if we don't actually do something about our debts and get our fiscal house in order, eventually there will be real consequences in terms of how the global economy begins to treat us. If it ever reaches the point that all the credit agencies start downgrading us, then you will most certainly see consequences.

[girl gone mad]

33. We can't default unless our politicians refuse to pay our bills.

Period.

"if we don't actually do something about our debts and get our fiscal house in order, eventually there will be real consequences in terms of how the global economy begins to treat us."


Yeah, right. People like you have been saying shit like this about Japan for two decades now. I've made a lot of money taking the opposite side of that trade because, unlike people like you, I actually understand how economies function.

Our fiscal house is basically sound. We need to expand our deficits right now. Attempting to "balance the budget" right now will only result in higher deficits and greater job losses.

[phleshdef]

34. Must be easy to brag about shit that you never did on the internet.

I don't believe a word of it. And if you are INSANE enough to think we should ignore the deficits altogether, again, I'm glad you are not nor will you ever be in any position to run the country. You are where you belong, not doing a damn thing but talking shit on the internet, your proper place.

[girl gone mad]

35. I never said we should ignore deficits altogether.

I said we should ignore deficits as long as we have high unemployment and significant deflationary pressures. I told you at the very beginning of our conversation that once inflation becomes a threat we should address the deficit. Pay attention next time.

As for the rest of your rants, I've heard it all before. Let's ignore the actual crisis that's actually happening right now and worry about some imaginary scenario we've concocted in our heads whereby interest rates are going to magically soar and a country that can print its own money will suddenly run out of its own money. You're a real economic genius.. right up there with Larry Summers and Peter Orszag.

[sabrina 1]

36. We should have prosecuted the Credit Ratings Agencies for their

corrupt role in the collapse of this economy. Another major error. At which point anything they had to say would have been laughed at, as it should be. They knowingly gave triple A ratings to worthless pieces of paper and were complicit in the corruption. Who cares what they have to say? I am still wondering why they are not on trial.

But rather than prosecute the biggest bank robbers in the history of the world's economy, we instead, gave them trillions to bail them out. And let their accomplices off the hook also, only to have them turn around and bite us once again. Who is running this mess? The ways to deal with this were simple. APPLY THE LAW! That's what we have laws for, for crimes like this. But we have been told to look forward when it comes to certain elements in this society. And here is the result of that egregiously wrong thinking.

[Marr]

15. I know-- he "wants" lots of wonderful things.

He talks about them very prettily. Then he maneuvers them into a ditch, and signs their opposites into law.

[kentuck]

3. Can you document that?

All I know is that he has talked about taxcut after taxcut and extended the Bush taxcuts. I don't recall any serious discussion about tax increases on the wealthy with the threat of a veto if they were not there?

[Sirveri]

5. Don't forget the 'jobs bill' which is over 50% tax cuts.

Unless something changed in the last week while I've been doing other stuff.

[phleshdef]

9. Do you have the ability to read and listen to news, speeches and townhalls?

Obama has only said something like "the wealthy need to pay their fair share" a trillion times since he got elected. You know this, it doesn't need to be documented or explained to you. Stop being dishonest.

[kentuck]

16. Who's being dishonest?

I think it is you.

The President has not said "the wealthy need to pay their fair share" a trillion times...

Don't you agree that is a huge exaggeration?

[phleshdef]

21. No. Common figures of speech are not subject to scrutiny in regards to exaggeration.

Thats why we call them figures of speech in the first place. I don't need to justify or even really discuss my painfully obvious use of one to you or anyone else.

The fact that you are desperate enough that you just tried to get away with nitpicking a commonly used figure of speech is evidence of how wrong you know you really are.

[kentuck]

22. You are wrong.

Sorry.

[phleshdef]

24. The President has consistently called for raising taxes on the rich since day 1. You know it.

I know it. Anyone paying attention knows it. I can not possibly be wrong on that. The evidence is there in state of the union addresses, campaign speeches, speeches during the bush tax cut compromise, speeches after the bush tax cut compromise, speeches during the debt ceiling debate and again, calling for it now. The President has never once stopped calling for higher taxes on the wealthy. This is undeniable truth that cuts right to the heart of all your phony grievances.

[kentuck]

26. Why then?

Is everyone making a big deal about it now, including Rush Limbaugh and the Republicans? What's the difference if he has been asking for it all along? Why is everyone talking about it today but never raised an eyebrow anytime before? I think you are full of it.

[Proud Public Servant]

6. Good thing he waited to actually act

Until he'd lost his majority in the House and his commanding majority in the Senate. God only knows what would have happened if he'd been foolish enough to try this earlier.

[COLGATE4]

10. The only problem is that, while he talked about it almost

incessantly, when he had the power to do it (i.e. let the Bush tax cuts on the rich expire) he did nothing. Once again, pretty speeches, no action.

[bananas]

4. Why do you think they call it dope?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x732149

[DirkGently]

7. Excellent.

[Angry Dragon]

11. paul ryan has been in office since 1999

he has caused this mess this country is in
make him answer for this

[FarLeftFist]

14. It's class-warfare alright, the problem is we lost long ago and they started it.

[NNN0LHI]

17. Political ploy my ass!

Sounds like a bunch of trust fund babies just don't like sound of reality slamming into their face and they are beginning to panic.

That is what it seems like to me anyway.

Don

[kentuck]

18. I agree...

But I think there are some political motivations involved also.