I heard the other day "In Europe they don't operate on people over 80."

[raccoon]

Now, if true, this would of course depend on the country.

Can anyone enlighten me about this?

FWIW, my late stepfather, at age 80+, had brain surgery for tumors. I'll always believe that surgery hastened his end.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Doesn't apply to the UK

.

[phantom power]

2. Smells an awful lot like a Right Wing Myth(tm)....

That aside, the risk of surgery is pretty high when you are that old. Surgeons take that into account, and may recommend not doing surgeries at that age, depending on what the risk/reward is. Even here, in Murka!

[Blasphemer]

18. Yep

I could say "In the U.S. they don't operate on people over 80" and "In the U.S. they leave people over 80 to die" based on a misleading account of my personal experience with elderly family members but it would be a generalization based on a half-truth. These sorts of statements only serve to mislead and incite. Doctors make recommendations that, based on the age of the patient, may preclude certain treatment options.

[newspeak]

22. what do you mean?

my MIL and FIL (recently deceased) are over eighty. Both had medical problems that required surgery and both were told that because of their age, that surgery was not advised. There was more chance for major complications.

[phantom power]

25. I think we agree...

My point was (a) claims like "ZOMG in europe they let people over 80 die!11!" are most like just right wing bullshit.

but also

(b) if somebody is that old, recommending that surgery not be performed is a pretty reasonable recommendation given the high risk factors. It doesn't mean "death panels!", either here in America or in Red Socialist Europe.

[blogslut]

3. Sounds like the Raquel Welch rib story

There are people that, to this day, insist that she had two of her ribs removed in order to make her waist appear smaller.

The statement you cite sounds like some made-up fact.

[razorman]

5. But that story's true. I heard if from a friend whose cousin read it online.

[blogslut]

8. She also had all her molars removed!

It makes her cheekbones stand out!

[LeftinOH]

11. I heard it was Cher that had ribs removed; whoever did it.. it's totally true

because that's what I heard somewhere. :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Dogtown]

26. I actually heard this story years ago

attributed to Marlene Dietrich (also the detail in Post #8 about the molar-removal to enhance her cheek=bones).

I believed those anecdotes but realize now they could have been just Hollywood "bad-girl" promotion.

Fascinating.

[blogslut]

29. Ha!

I guess the actress changes with the generations but the impossible "facts" remain the same. :hi:

[Dogtown]

30. I feel gullible.

Dietrich might have done the teeth thing, but surgical removal of ribs, especially during the 30s, would have been way too dangerous.

:blush:

[blogslut]

31. According to Snopes, this a very old urban myth

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/vanities/ribs.asp

[Dogtown]

33. Excellent!

Folk-knowledge should never be accepted unconditionally.
:blush:

[seabeyond]

4. it does sound like death panel rhetoric, but i really know nothing about this. nt

[EC]

6. I'm guessing that in any country

if someone is over 80 and not in good enough shape to withstand surgery, it's not done. Now if like my Mom, they are still healthy enough to withstand it, it's done.

[jwirr]

20. Our family member is in need of surgery and in bad condition. They

have postponed it 4 times now. It would not surprise me at all if he died on the table if they do it. I did not have the option of suggesting they forget it.

[Sheepshank]

7. My dad is 82.

and although not in Europe, Australia has some similar health practices.

Since his late 70's into this last year, he has had surgery for blood clots (shunts and filters installed), a pace maker and most recently prostate surgery. I do belive his health is declining seriously and he is not bouncing back as well as the family had hope from these multiple procedures.

I personally feel that surgery will not always be the best option for his frail health conditions. So it would make sense that at some point, his health will play a factor in whether they Dr's think surgery is the best and most viable option.

[Blue_Tires]

9. Maybe you heard "they don't operate unnecessarily on people over 80"

[LeftishBrit]

10. Not so.

It's true that prognosis is taken into account, and that doctors may be reluctant to recommend surgery if a patient is in such generally poor health that the surgery itself is likely to be fatal. And some doctors are more cautious about this than others. But there is no general rule that people over a certain age can't have surgery.

[Blaukraut]

12. Wrong. My 80 year old mother just had major abdominal surgery

in Germany. Her health insurance paid for everything with no deductible. She is physically as fit as a 60 year old. Unfortunately, she also has vascular dementia, so the risk was there that surgery would worsen her VD. It didn't.

[FSogol]

14. Glad your Mom is ok, but you probably shouldn't tell everyone she has VD.

That definition has another more common meaning, if you get my drift.

[Gold Metal Flake]

13. Why didn't you ask the source to prove it?

"Bullshit. Prove it." They don't (because they can't) so you say "It's bullshit. Don't piss on my leg and call it rain."

It's just that easy.

[raccoon]

15. Because I heard it third hand. The person who said it heard it from her son.

Which is why I'm asking about it here.

IMO I sure don't see doing surgery on elderly people if it can possibly be avoided. And as some have posted, taking into account the person's state of health.

[rfranklin]

16. In the USA, surgeons routinely do ill-advised operations on octogenarians...

and as long as the patient is brought out of anesthesia it is considered a success. Of course, the surgeons disappear at that point and never see the failures that happens days and months later as a result of the operation. Both my parents were given operations that lead to their deaths. Their quality of life in their final days was miserable. They suffered and their families suffered. But after a brief visit from the surgeons after the operations we never heard another word.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

17. Not true in Italy

I've had grandparents who had surgeries well into their 80s and even 90s. By the way, the healthcare in my part of Italy is considered among the very best and Italy ranks 2nd to France for best system (although there are distinct regional differences in care - just as there are in the U.S.).

[SOS]

19. Not true in Germany

My late father had many friends in Europe, mostly in Germany.
They are all old-timers now and receive excellent health care.
Anecdotal, but I can report that these guys are in their 80s and
have recently received hip replacement, kidney cancer surgery and bladder cancer surgery.
Happy to report they are all doing well.

OT - the fellow with the kidney cancer surgery was himself a doctor in the former East Germany.
Last time I spoke to him, he said if we can't afford American health care we should come to Dresden.
He'll set it up, we can stay with him and the cost will be a tiny fraction of the US cost.

There's a solution for us uninsured people.
Just leave this country.

I'm having my cataract removed in germany next spring for 10% of the NYC price.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. My father's prostate surgery at 72 kicked his alzheimer's into high gear.

He went from occasional lapses, tentatively diagnosed Stage 2 Alzheimer's to Stage 5 Alzheimers in less than two years, to where he needed to be put into full-time care away from home, and died at 77.

http://www.memorystudy.org/alzheimers_stages.htm

I've always thought it had something to do with the surgery, but don't have any idea if it was in reaction to certain drugs, or anesthesia, or simply the physical trauma.

Hell of it is, the prostate cancer would probably not have killed him until his mid-80s.

[InvisibleTouch]

24. That's apparently what happened to Peter Falk (Columbo) too.

He declined rapidly after a relatively routine surgery. There are definite risks at an advanced age, but each case needs to be evaluated individually. I do think doctors tend to be too aggressive with treatments on patients who are likely to die anyway, and perhaps, as you point out, would have lived longer and with a better quality of life without the treatment.

[Quantess]

23. How many different countries are there in Europe,

all with slightly different health care systems? Off the top of my head, I'll go ahead and say, "a lot".

[freethought]

27. This sounds like B.S.

I doubt that any of the European countries would refuse to operate on an 80 year-old for any reason. However, I do believe that some of these countries have made some difficult decisions with regard to their healthcare policies. For instance, it could be that someone over a certain age will not get an organ transplant. Or, a baby born a certain number of weeks premature may not receive life support until they can breath/function on their own. I have a number of conversations with people from some of the Northern European countries, where health care is socialized. These people understand these policies and are willing to live with them.
Besides, if one is 80 years of age, going under the knife can be a dangerous thing even if the procedure seemingly isn't.

[truebrit71]

28. Complete and utter bullshit.

.

[laundry_queen]

32. hahahaha

I know for a fact the US does that very thing. My grandfather, a Canadian living 3 min or so from the US border and 10 min from the closest hospital (in the US) had a really bad run-in with the American 'health' care system. He was 95 years old at the time. He was vomitting and unable to keep even liquids down. He went to the US hospital (his provincial healthcare pays the bill because of where he lives). He was admitted and the doctor in the American hospital, after some tests, told him he probably had stomach cancer which would need surgery and he certainly wouldn't survive THAT at his age, and that he should go home on IV fluids and reflect on his wonderful life and die with his family surrounding him. My grandmother refused to accept that and took him an hour and a half to the nearest Canadian major center. The doctor in Canada right away did some more tests (while reassuring my grandmother that if they needed to operate, they would) and found that it was simply an untreated ulcer that had swelled the stomach's exit closed. My grandfather was put on a liquid diet for a couple of weeks and given high doses of antacids and antibiotics. Within a month he was back to normal. The US doctor sent him home to die and the Canadian doctor saved his life.

4 years later, my grandfather broke his hip and required surgery. HE had hip surgery (yes at 99 years old) here in Canada. He just turned 102 and is doing fine (unfortunately my grandmother passed away 3 years ago). He can't walk but he's very animated and his memory isn't totally gone yet. I think it's crap that old people can't be operated on. Yes it's more risky, but many people who undergo surgery are high risk. They aren't told 'sorry, you can't have the surgery, you're high risk'. I do think some doctors, no matter the health care system, still think this way, but I think it's an 'old' way of thinking and it will be slowly phased out. Unless, of course, insurance companies have a say in it.