Libyan Revolution Week 31 part 4

[joshcryer]

[joshcryer]

1. Libyan Revolution Day 216 updates below, current time in Libya, 2:42pm Wednesday, September 21

Bet you thought I forgot to update, eh pinboy3niner?

[pinboy3niner]

3. I had faith in you, Josh...

...because it was quiet--too quiet. :)

[pinboy3niner]

2. K&R

Inside one of Gaddafi's torture cells
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-Inside-Gaddafis-torture-chamber-The-bloodstained-cells-inside-primary-school-used-brutalise-enemies.html

[pinboy3niner]

4. 3 killed in shelling of Yemeni protesters in Sanaa

By AHMED AL-HAJ - Associated Press | AP – 28 mins ago.


SANAA, Yemen (AP) — Medical officials say Yemeni government forces have fired mortars at a central district of the capital Sanaa where tens of thousands of opposition supporters had gathered, killing three and wounding at least 16 people.

The shelling breached a cease-fire negotiated a day earlier to end a deadly bout of violence between government forces and opponents of the regime. More than 70 people have died in Sanaa and elsewhere in Yemen this week.

The officials said Wednesday's shelling targeted a part of Change square, where protesters have camped out since February to demand the ouster of longtime President Ali Abdullah Saleh.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/3-killed-shelling-yemeni-protesters-sanaa-123936530.html

[pinboy3niner]

5. Migrants clash with residents on Italian island

Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:13pm GMT


PALERMO, Sicily, Sept 21 (Reuters) - Migrants clashed with residents on Wednesday on an Italian island off the coast of Sicily where tens of thousands of North Africans have landed since the start of the year.

Lampedusa, roughly midway between Sicily and the African mainland, has been the point of arrival in Europe for hundreds of small, often overcrowded boats carrying would-be immigrants from Tunisia and Libya.

At times, the island's 5,000-strong population has been outnumbered by the immigrants, most of them young men in search of work in Europe.

Tensions erupted on Tuesday when some migrants set fire to a holding centre on the island in protest at plans for forced repatriation.

Around 1,200 migrants were relocated to a sports field after the incident. Clashes with residents broke out on Wednesday after some residents threw stones, local officials said.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KL53A20110921?sp=true

[Swede]

6. K&R

Keep up the good work. :toast:

[pinboy3niner]

7. NATO extends Libya mission for up to 90 days

Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:47pm GMT

By David Brunnstrom


BRUSSELS, Sept 21 (Reuters) - NATO agreed on Wednesday to extend its air-and-sea campaign in Libya for up to 90 days as the country's new rulers try to dislodge well-armed Gaddafi loyalists holding out in several towns.

The agreement to extend the U.N.-mandated mission to protect civilians, of which NATO took full command on March 31, came at a meeting of ambassadors of the 28 NATO states in Brussels and NATO's secretary-general said it could end sooner.

"We are determined to continue our mission for as long as necessary, but ready to terminate the operation as soon as possible," Anders Fogh Rasmussen said in a statement.

"While the technical rollover is for up to 90 days, the review will allow us to end our tasks at any time."

...


"This decision sends a clear message to the Libyan people. We will be there for as long as necessary, but not a day longer, while you take your future in your hands to ensure a safe transition to the new Libya."

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE78K03Z20110921?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

8. @bencnn: #Sabha fairly quiet today. Few clashes, more people on the street than yesterday.

@bencnn

#Sabha fairly quiet today. Few clashes, more people on the street than yesterday. #Libya

4:21PM GMT Sep 21, 2011

[pinboy3niner]

9. US ambassador returns to Libya

By KIM GAMEL - Associated Press | AP – 2 hrs 27 mins ago


TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) — The U.S. ambassador to Libya returned to Tripoli Wednesday to lead a newly reopened American Embassy in a post-Moammar Gadhafi era.

Ambassador Gene Cretz arrived in Tripoli, a day before plans to raise the U.S. flag over the embassy building in the Libyan capital. It was about eight months after he left for consultations in Washington in January after WikiLeaks posted his opinions of Gadhafi's personal life and habits in a classified 2009 diplomatic cable. At the time, the Obama administration was considering replacing him due in part to strains in ties caused by the blunt assessment.

...


The secret document said Gadhafi "appears to have an intense dislike or fear of staying on upper floors, reportedly prefers not to fly over water, and seems to enjoy horse racing and flamenco dancing." It also discussed Gadhafi's longtime reliance on a Ukrainian nurse named Galyna who the cable said had been described as a "voluptuous blonde."

...


http://news.yahoo.com/us-ambassador-returns-libya-145852782.html

[tabatha]

10. Social media provides an outlet for both those active in revolution and ...

Magazines and laptops

Social media provides an outlet for both those active in revolution and active in support
By Mark Croy, Viewpoint Writer on September 21, 2011

HIS NAME was Mohammed Nabbous, or “Mo” to his comrades and online supporters. He and fellow Libyans set up Libya Alhurra TV — Free Libya TV — in February. I watched his live feeds on a daily basis after finding a link on the Libyan Youth Movement Facebook page. He was a symbol to those of us outside the Libya of the Benghazi Revolution. He would hold cell phones up to take and answer queries in English and Arabic. His video regularly would show signs in English or French imploring the world to intervene. He would answer messaged questions looking directly into the camera. It was as if he were in the next room, but in this case the next room was on fire.

Mo and his crew were fearless, and ultimately he was killed in a firefight this past March. I missed the live feed. I logged on later that day to a silent Alhurra and a message board that told me Mo was dead. I would soon hear his tearful young wife — pregnant with their first, and only, child — tell the world to help Libya and remember Mo. His daughter will grow up in a Libya he helped create.

You can be friends with revolutionaries changing the face of the Islamic world. They are right there online. Various technologically savvy groups have used social networks to get their stories out, freed of censors or filters. It is the raw truth as they record it on Flip cameras and cell phones. And though much has been written about the role of both Facebook and Twitter in coordinating and inspiring the revolutionary youth from Morocco to Iran, little has been written concerning the windows social networks have thrown open to us all.

Two years ago I watched Neda Agha Soltan bleed to death on a Tehran street moments after she was shot. I have Tweeted with young protesters in Tahrir Square and asked Mo a question via the Alhurra message board. I have watched videos of countless millions marching in Yemen, Syria and Bahrain. I have been moved by revolutionary songs sung by children and horrified as another mother loses another son to the violence perpetrated by beastly regimes.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/2011/09/21/magazines-and-laptops/

[tabatha]

11. Photos from Libya

http://yfrog.com/user/kareemJerusalem/photos

[pinboy3niner]

12. Obama at UN: "Will we stand with the Syrian people or with their oppressors?"

Matthew Weaver posts at The Guardian's Live Blog:


Obama called on the UN security council to stand with the Syrian people and sanction the Assad regime.

In his strongest comments yet on the crackdown in Syria he said:

As we meet here today men women and children and being tortured, detained and murdered by the Syrian regime. Thousands have been killed, many during the holy time of Ramadan. Thousands more have poured across Syria's borders. The Syrian people have shown (dignity) and courage in their pursuit of justice - protesting peacefully, standing silently in the street. Dying for the same values that this institution is supposed to stand for.

The question for us is clear. Will we stand with the Syrian people or with their oppressors?

For the sake of Syria and the peace and security of the world we must speak with one voice. There is no excuse for inaction. Now is the time for the UN security council to sanction the Syrian regime and to stand with the Syrian people.

Obama was more cautious about Yemen and Bahrain:

In Yemen men, women and children gather by the thousand in towns and city squares everyday in the hope that their determination and spilt blood will prevail over a corrupt system. America supports those aspirations. We must work with Yemen's neighbours, and our partners around the world, to seek a path for a peaceful transition of power from president Saleh and a movement to free and fair elections as soon as possible.

In Bahrain steps have been take toward reform and accountability. We are pleased with that, but more is required. America is a close friend of Bahrain and we will continue to call on the government and the main opposition block to pursue a meaningful dialogue that brings peaceful change.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/sep/21/yemen-libya-middle-east-unrest-live-updates#block-19

[pinboy3niner]

13. For Libyans, rows of photos of the dead recall their sad history

Portraits of the dead cover every wall around the main plaza in the coastal city of Benghazi, the cradle of the revolt against Moammar Gadhafi. This makeshift memorial to the victims of Gadhafiês 42-year rule is a place where Benghazi families can, for the first time, share their private heartbreak with the wider community. (Roy Gutman/MCT)


By Hannah Allam | McClatchy Newspapers


BENGHAZI, Libya — In the main square of this coastal city, portraits of the dead cover every wall.

The photos show old men and young men. Some were killed in battle just this week. Others perished a decade ago or longer, in Moammar Gadhafi's notorious Abu Salim prison. At least one woman is among the faces.

This makeshift memorial is where Benghazi families can, for the first time, share their private heartbreak over the victims of Gadhafi's 42-year rule in the newly renamed Freedom Square. Similar displays are springing up in other cities, grim illustrations to the Libyan story of suffering and, finally, rebellion.

"I'm so angry to see all these faces, how many he killed," said Wilad al Shukri, 68, whose two sons died in Abu Salim prison and are included in the Benghazi memorial. "It was not only my sons, but generations of Libya's sons. God willing, we'll have a museum one day, but not now. People are still dying."

...


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/09/21/124820/for-libyans-rows-of-photos-of.html

[pinboy3niner]

14. Libya fighters seize southern Gaddafi town of Jufra

Reuters is reporting an NTC military spokesperson says all of Jufra has been liberated:

The whole of the Jufra area, we have been told it has been liberated," Fathi Bashaagha told reporters in the city of Misrata.

[pinboy3niner]

15. Libya's new rulers claim vital victory

Hassan El-Fekih
September 22, 2011 - 5:54AM

AFP

Libya's new rulers have declared victory in the key southern city of Sabha and conquered the oasis town of Waddan, but suffered heavy casualties in their offensive in Muammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte.

Officials of the interim ruling National Transitional Council said on Wednesday there were only small pockets of resistance in Sabha, Libya's largest desert city and home to a strategically vital military base.

...


Meanwhile, NTC commander Ahmed Zlitni said that fighters were planning for a three-pronged attack on Gaddafi's hometown, Sirte.

"We are working on a strategy to go for a big push from three sides, the east, the west and the south. This is a war, the push could happen in a few days or anytime soon," Zlitni said.

"We are still giving time for Sirte civilians to leave the city. There is resistance to our forces from Gaddafi's forces from inside the city."

...


http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/libyas-new-rulers-claim-vital-victory-20110922-1klp3.html

[pinboy3niner]

16. What Role Will Islamists Play In Libya?

Source: NPR

by Corey Flintoff

September 21, 2011


As Libyans work to form an interim government, some of those competing for power are members of the Muslim Brotherhood, raising fears that Islamist radicals may try to hijack the revolution. But many Libyans say those fears are mostly in the minds of Westerners.

Former Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi banned the Muslim Brotherhood. The group attempted to overthrow Gadhafi in the 1990s, and he responded with a ferocious crackdown that put many of its members in jail.

Members of the Muslim Brotherhood have been involved in the current revolution since it began in February, and group members generally say they want a state governed by Islamic law and institutions.

One of the most prominent members of the Muslim Brotherhood is Amin Belhaj, who also belongs to the Transitional National Council, the group that is currently running the country.

...


"This government should understand Islam as we believe. That's what we want," Belhaj says. That, he says, means justice and equality under Islamic law. Belhaj says his views on social values differ very little from those of conservative Christians in the United States. By Libyan standards, he says, those views are not extreme.

...


Audio for this story from All Things Considered will be available at approx. 7:00 p.m. ET
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/21/140665324/what-role-will-islamists-play-in-libya?ft=1&f=1001

[pinboy3niner]

17. LIBYAN REVOLUTION DAY 217: CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:01 AM THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 22

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, UTC +1 hour, GMT +2 hours










Inside one of Gaddafi's torture cells
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-Inside-Gaddafis-torture-chamber-The-bloodstained-cells-inside-primary-school-used-brutalise-enemies.html

[pinboy3niner]

18. Tunisian army clashes with militants along desert border with Algeria

By Associated Press, Updated: Wednesday, September 21, 1:10 PM


TUNIS, Tunisia — The Tunisian army destroyed seven four-wheel drive vehicles in a remote desert battle on Wednesday near the border with Algeria, the Defense Ministry said.

The group of nine vehicles was spotted by a routine Tunisian army air patrol. The group then opened fire on the plane, prompting an armed response, said the ministry.

The battle took place in the desert region of Irg, 300 miles (470 kilometers) southwest of Tunis.

The two remaining vehicles have been stopped and their occupants will be taken into custody, said Heykel Bouzouita, the spokesman for the ministry.

...


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tunisian-army-clashes-with-militants-along-desert-border-with-algeria/2011/09/21/gIQAg4LhlK_story.html#

[ellisonz]

19. They can run - but they cannot hide.

[pinboy3niner]

20. EU to send 150 poll observers to Tunisia

(AFP) – 7 hours ago


TUNIS — The EU will send 150 observers next month to monitor Tunisian elections for an assembly that will write a new constitution for the country, an official said Wednesday.

The observer mission will deploy in 27 voting districts at the invitation of the Tunisian government and will comprise experts and MPs from European Union member states as well as Norway, Switzerland and Canada, mission head Michael Gahler told journalists.

A group of 54 observers and 10 experts in politics, law and media have already arrived in Tunis.

...


The observers will act independently of the institutions of the EU and its member states, and will have the task to "analyse the electoral process and present a precise, detailed and impartial evaluation," Gahler said -- "without intervention or control over what happens."

...


"Our mission is totally different from those which took place under the former regime," he said, adding: "our methods are objective and impartial".

...


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gcMHHrnwvqZ7hZVLTQujUlQqp3hA?docId=CNG.590c87bf3232828fdaaa5df9c4da5141.1e1

[CJvR]

21. That...

...brown circle down south sure taste sweet!

No southern redoubt for Gaddafi then.

[pinboy3niner]

22. Libya rulers say they seize Gaddafi desert outposts, find chemical weapons

Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:24pm GMT

• Chemical weapons depot uncovered - NTC spokesman

• Bani Walid and Sirte still resisting

• NATO extends mission for three months

• Interim PM says new cabinet within 10 days


By William Maclean and Maria Golovnina


TRIPOLI/NORTH OF BANI WALID, Libya, Sept 21 (Reuters) - Libya's interim rulers said on Wednesday they had captured one of Muammar Gaddafi's last strongholds deep in the Sahara desert, finding chemical weapons, and largely taken control of another.

With the National Transitional Council (NTC) struggling to assert full control over the country, military spokesmen said its forces had seized the outpost of Jufra about 700 km (435 miles) southeast of Tripoli, and most of Sabha.

"The whole of the Jufra area -- we have been told it has been liberated," spokesman Fathi Bashaagha told reporters in the city of Misrata. "There was a depot of chemical weapons and now it is under the control of our fighters."

His comments could not be confirmed independently. Under Gaddafi, Libya was supposed to have destroyed its stockpile of chemical weapons in early 2004 as part of a rapprochement with the West under which it also abandoned a nuclear programme.

However, the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons says Libya kept 9.5 tonnes of mustard gas at a secret desert location, although it could no longer deliver it.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KL4ET20110921?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

23. NTC official: At least 16 civilians executed by Gaddafi forces in Bani Walid

Reuters reports:

NTC official Abdullah Kenshil told Reuters that pro-Gaddafi forces in Bani Walid had killed at least 16 civilians there in the last two days after suspecting they supported the NTC.

"They were killed in cold blood. They were all civilians and they were killed execution-style," he said. His account could not be independently verified.

The report, by William Maclean and Maria Golovnina, also notes the unexpectedly fierce fight put up by Gaddafi loyalists:

Sporadic fighting also continued outside Sirte, where an NTC push from the east toward Gaddafi's birthplace has been blocked for days by heavy artillery fire from loyalist soldiers.

Fighters making their way back from the front line said they were meeting fierce resistance at Khamseen, 50 km (30 miles) east of Sirte, and that they lacked the firepower to respond.

"I'm 100 percent sure that there is someone important in Sirte, either Gaddafi himself or one of his sons, because his forces have become suicidal in the Khamseen area," NTC fighter Hamed al-Hachy told Reuters.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KL4ET20110921?sp=true

Gaddafi's son Mutassim is widely believed to be commanding loyalist forces in Sirte.

[CJvR]

51. Crickets....

Wait until a NATO bomb kill 16 civilians, then you will get a media blitz.

[pinboy3niner]

24. Gaddafi arms dealings hit China's image badly

Source: New Straits Times (Malaysia)

2011/09/21
By Frank Ching


THE news that officials of Muammar Gaddafi's regime held secret talks in Beijing to buy weapons in July -- five months after the Security Council imposed an arms embargo on Libya -- is deeply embarrassing for China and casts doubt on its sincerity regarding honouring United Nations sanctions resolutions for which it voted.

...


China's credibility on sanctions enforcement was already poor before the latest Libyan disclosures. Months ago, Beijing fought not to be named in a UN report on its failure to intercept suspected shipments of North Korean ballistic missile items and so was identified only as "a neighbouring third country".

But such arm-twisting can only go so far. Already, Washington has called on China to clarify "what did and didn't transpire" at the meetings with Gaddafi representatives.

Until China cleans up its act, it will not be accorded the respect that it desires, despite its fast-growing economy and increasing military reach.


http://www.nst.com.my/nst/articles/17regime/Article/index_html

[tabatha]

25. Libya university asks LSE to return Gaddafi cash

London School of Economics asked to return £1.5m pledged to it by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, son of deposed dictator

Tripoli University is to ask the London School of Economics to return the £1.5m pledged by the deposed dictator’s son Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, who obtained his PhD there.

University officials have told the Guardian that the money was stolen from the Libyan people and should be either reimbursed or used to fund scholarships for Libyans studying in the UK.

LSE faced furious criticism over its links with the Gaddafi regime, leading to the resignation of its director, Sir Howard Davies, though only £300,000 of the money had been paid out. “I am sure they will co-operate with us,” said Khaifa Shakreen, Tripoli University’s head of international relations.

The LSE said on Wednesday that it had earmarked the £300,000 for bursaries for north African students.

http://shabablibya.org/news/libya-university-asks-lse-to-return-gaddafi-cash

[tabatha]

26. Libya's main university prepares new term for a new dawn

No one seems to mind that term is starting late at Tripoli University this year. It's not every summer vacation, after all, that records the triumph of a revolution, and there are problems to sort out – not least the huge number of young men toting machine guns on campus – before the students start streaming in past the "down with Gaddafi" and "Free Libya" slogans.

Staff and new intake alike are preparing for a freshers' week with a difference. "In the circumstances I think we can be forgiven if this term is a bit delayed," says administrator Khalifa Shakreen. "Things are changing so fast."

For the first time in 42 years the university has the chance to be a normal academic institution. "Until now we had the form of a university but not the function," says Sami Khaskusha, a political scientist. "We fed young people garbage. Gaddafi just used this place to boost his cult of personality and bolster the regime. It did nothing for Libyan society."

Omar Tajouri, doing a master's degree in international law, wants better teaching, cleaner administration and, above all, freedom. His ambition – unthinkable just months ago – is to specialise in human rights. "Gaddafi's regime was founded on ignorance," he says. "They were the enemies of education and of students."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/21/libyas-main-university-prepares-new-term?CMP=twt_gu

excellent article

[pinboy3niner]

27. Windfall of Libyan assets discovered

Libya's revolutionary government has enjoyed a surprise windfall that will help finance the country's post-war recovery after discovering $23 billion-worth of assets that were unspent by Muammer Gaddafi's regime, officials in London and Tripoli have told the Financial Times.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KL74L20110922?sp=true

[tabatha]

29. $23bn windfall for new Libya

The discovery of extra cash in Libya’s domestic system highlights the secretiveness and lack of accountability of the Gaddafi regime, with officials from the new government saying it held a great deal of wealth off the country’s books.

Mr Shater said the authorities were still investigating the sale this year by the old regime of one fifth of the country’s gold reserves, adding that some of it may have been used to finance the colonel’s increasingly desperate military efforts to sustain his near-42-year rule.

http://shabablibya.org/news/23bn-windfall-for-new-libya

[pinboy3niner]

28. Italy Planning to Repatriate All North Africans from Lampedusa

Posted Wednesday, September 21st, 2011 at 7:46 pm


Italian authorities say they will clear all those they call illegal immigrants from Lampedusa island, after two days of fighting between police and North African migrants there.

Fifty-thousand migrants, mostly from Libya and Tunisia, have landed on the tiny Mediterranean island this year, seeking a better life in the European Union. They far outnumber the local population — many of whom say they want the migrants gone.

Italy's Interior Ministry is promising that all the migrants will be repatriated by the end of this week.

http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2011/09/21/italy-planning-to-repatriate-all-north-africans-from-lampedusa/

[tabatha]

30. The Surreal Ruins of Qaddafi’s Never-Never Land

On the evening of Aug. 23, during the final hours of the battle for Tripoli, a 26-year-old lawyer named Mustafa Abdullah Atiri was lying, exhausted, against the back wall of a filthy tin-roofed warehouse crammed with 150 prisoners. He had been beaten and tortured every day since Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s soldiers arrested him four days earlier. It was just after the muezzin’s first call to evening prayer — about 10 minutes before 8 — when a pair of guards walked to the door, raised their AK-47 rifles and began spraying the men with bullets. Another guard threw a grenade into the densely packed crowd. Bodies fell on top of Atiri with the first fusillade, protecting him from the blast. Then the guards opened fire again. Blood began seeping down from the bodies above, soaking his jeans. As the officers walked back across the yard to reload, a guard named Abdel Razaq, who had shown the men some small mercies over the previous days, went to the door and shouted at the survivors: “Run! Run!”

I first met Atiri four days later. He was standing in the yard of the prison he had escaped from, a big man in a sweaty orange polo shirt with enormous, haunted eyes. It was noon under a blazing sun, and the smell of rotting corpses was stifling. Three men lay dead on the ground at our feet, their bodies bloated, dried blood pooled around them. Acrid smoke was still rising from the dark interior of the warehouse where Atiri and his fellow prisoners had been held. I walked over to take a look. I have been to a number of war zones, but nothing prepared me for what I saw. Dozens of skulls and twisted skeletons lay in a charred mound, surrounded by bones and bits of old, burned tires. There were at least 50 human remains there, and probably many more. Atiri, standing behind me, had known these men, some of them just teenagers. One was an imam who led them in prayer, he said. Atiri’s eyes roved wildly around the prison yard, his face contorted with grief. It was only after the massacre, he told me, that he realized the significance of something he saw two hours before it all began, as the guards were moving him across the prison yard. An officer had arrived at the prison’s front gate, flanked by aides. A guard whispered to Atiri that it was Khamis el-Qaddafi, the dictator’s youngest son, a military commander known for brutality. “The guard told me, ‘Khamis is signing the orders for your final release,’ ” Atiri said as we stood by the fire-blackened warehouse. “And he laughed.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all

Amazing read.

[pinboy3niner]

31. "I have been to a number of war zones, but nothing prepared me for what I saw"

Hats off to the writer, Robert F. Worth, for a story well-told.

One random paragraph:

By that time, the last great battle of the Libyan civil war was over. After 42 years, the bizarre pageant of Muammar Qaddafi’s rule had collapsed quickly, in a final spasm of senseless killing. Scores of prisoners — perhaps hundreds — were executed at makeshift holding facilities like the one I saw, for no apparent reason. Many of the victims were not even rebels, just citizens picked up in random sweeps in the final days. Even the guards were killed at some jails, perhaps to silence a witness, perhaps because they refused orders. No one could say.

Thanks, tabatha--this story is well worth reading in full. :fistbump:

[joshcryer]

34. Amazing, breathtaking, wonderful read, wow. Just wow. Thank you thank you!

What a wonderful read. The books, the scripts, the historical stories, they're going to be mind boggling. A true revolution!

[joshcryer]

35. “This is how Qaddafi spent our oil money,” Zaydan said. “Enough weapons to wage 10 more wars.”

[pinboy3niner]

32. NTC lays out timeline to form new government

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• The NTC plans to create an interim government

• A prime minister will form a government

• The Libyan people will vote on a new constitution

By Jill Dougherty and Mohammed Tawfeeq, CNN

updated 10:20 PM EST, Wed September 21, 2011


Tripoli, Libya (CNN) --

...


After liberation, the NTC will create an interim government by appointing a prime minister who will be responsible for forming the government. The prime minister will decide how many ministers will be in that interim government, but he must return to the NTC for approval of that government.

Belhaj explained that the NTC decided to use the expression "interim government" because "the international community wants to deal with us through a government."

That interim government will prepare for the election of a National Congress within eight months, a body that will have 200 members. At the creation of the congress, the NTC will cease to exist.

The National Congress, Belhaj said, will form a committee to write a constitution for Libya, which will then be presented to the Libyan people to vote on in a referendum. If it's approved, Libya will have a permanent democratic constitution for the first time, he said.

...


http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/21/world/meast/libya-government-formation/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[pinboy3niner]

33. Libyan transition council head recalled as 'bright guy' at Pitt

Thursday, September 22, 2011

By Joshua Falk, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

...


Bert Rockman, now a professor and head of the political science department at Purdue University, knew Mr. Jibril when Mr. Rockman was a member of the Pitt political science faculty. Mr. Jibril worked as a research assistant on Mr. Rockman's 1984 book "The Leadership Question: The Presidency and the American System."

"Everything that I asked for I would get back and more," he said. "He was a very, very bright guy."

Mr. Jibril was born in Bani Walid in 1952. He earned his bachelor of science degree from Cairo University in 1975. Mr. Jibril served as a member of the Libyan delegation to the United Nations before coming to Pitt, Mr. Rockman said.

His dissertation, which he completed in 1985 under the tutelage of late Iran scholar Richard Cottam, was titled "U.S. Policy Toward Libya 1969-1982: The Role of Image."

"Tensions in U.S.-Libyan relations will continue so long as the dominant concern for the United States is the strategic contest with the Soviets and as Libya's relations with the Soviet Union grow stronger," Mr. Jibril wrote in "Imagery and Ideology in U.S. Policy Toward Libya, 1969-1982," a book adapted from his doctoral thesis and published in 1988 by the University of Pittsburgh Press.

"He had a pretty sophisticated perspective on Libyan society and the complexity of the population," Mr. Rockman recalled.

...


"This is a very tolerant, open-minded individual," Mr. Rockman said. "If the other people in the leadership are a lot like him, this could have a pretty happy ending."


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11265/1176650-298-0.stm?cmpid=nationworld.xml

[pinboy3niner]

36. Countering the propaganda

The Gaddafi propaganda pops up regularly, and I can't imagine what the next one will be.

I think the last one I saw suggested that a mass grave had been found, and suggested--with not one iota of evidence--that the victims were Gaddafi troops massacred by Misrata freedom fighters.

That was after dozens of mass graves were found in areas controlled by Gaddafi forces, often with witness testimony that Gaddafi forces executed both rebels and civilians.

Before that was the SCREAMING CAPS allegation that NTC fighters besieging Sirte and Bani Walid were STARVING the civilian population, and the media reports of civilians escaping were flat-out wrong because the civilians HAD NO GAS!1!!

And that was despite the reports that NTC forces were delivering food and gasoline into those areas--and the report from Reuters that the NTC had stationed a gasoline tanker truck outside Sirte to fill the tanks of escaping civiians.

And how can I forget the recent suggestions that it was Qatari commando combat troops who took down Bab al-Azizia, Gaddafi's Tripoli compound. The evidence? A Qatari flag was displayed during the victory celebration--and it was BIG, so that made it really significant. :eyes:

Normally, I'm too busy scrounging for news to post in threads which may require back-and-forth replies requiring time I don't have. But I salute those here who participate there to provide some facts to counter the blatant propaganda.

And for any lurkers here, please take the trouble to rec these threads. We get a LOT of unreccers here from those pushing the Gaddafi propaganda. Thankyou. :hug:

[joshcryer]

37. Heart of gold pinboy3niner.

Yeah, I've vowed not to engage those posters anymore, I'm sorry. It is probable that some Qatari special forces were there for Bab Al-Azizia, but as we all know, it took hundreds of Libyans, not a handful of special forces, to take it. The same poster who repeats that misinformation also tried to show a grafitti'd up picture as a "before picture" and the Qatar flag as an "after" picture. The flag in fact was placed there quite early and removed before Gaddafi's poster was even torn down.

French, Qatar, Jordanians special forces, they were http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8726916/Where-is-Colonel-Gaddafi.html">all involved to some extent or another.

Anyway, I'm sorry that I've vowed to not respond to those posters, but the toxic environment it creates is just not how I want to remember this (after Sirte and Bani Waled fall we'll have to have a wrapup thread and then give it a break, surely!).

[pinboy3niner]

38. I love you, man

I've watched you tilt at those windmills, and I don't know how you do it.

I've also missed you here when you were there.

Toxic environment is right. Some innocents may be deluded into buying that crap. It sounds good, after all, and hits the buzzwords of 'imperialism' and 'colonization'.

Never thought I'd ally with an anarchist, yet here we are, lol!

Again, I love you man!

Love & Peace,

pinboy3niner

[joshcryer]

39. I never thought I'd be supporting an uprising that had NATO involvement.

I am still unabashedly against NATO, but Libyan self-determination trumps that, by all means. I wish that, for instance, the UN was actually a truly anti-totalitarian force that used every diplomatic tool it had to expunge the world of tyrants, particularly in instances where the people rose up against those tyrants.

I am in no position to tell the Libyan people what they can or cannot do, or whose help they can or cannot ask for. As I wrote on Juan Cole's blog, it would've been ideal had the African Union intervened and told NATO to butt out, or had the Arab League intervened (and not just two-three small Arab states, but the whole of the League; that is naive and optimistic though), but that's pie in the sky.

I know you'll remember how I lamented the fact that NATO was bombing likely young conscripted people who didn't want to fight (either black Africans who could be exploited into having citizenship, some cash, and maybe a car; and youths who were taken out of school to fight against 'terrorists'). And I know that you are intimate with that sort of conscription given your experiences in Vietnam. I know you probably remember the trepidation I recognized in the faces of those Libyans who asked for help after the French obliterated the convoy going to Benghazi, as they surveyed the wreckage.

I truly believe that the involvement of international forces ended a protracted civil war with less bloodshed than otherwise (particularly forces that have an extremely high RoE where less than 50% of flights are strike sorties, and where less than 20% of strike sorties actually dropped munitions, as Clay Claiborne points out), not to mention the long standing instability that would've affected neighboring countries for years to come.

I know I've burnt a lot of bridges on DU, and as an anarchist I've been mocked repeatedly for my support of the Libyan revolutionaries. I just hope you haven't lost any good will for your support because I know you're unabashedly progressive, all the way.

Love you too, man. You've made this possible. I remember telling people I'd keep going for as long as it took but I never could've done it without you.

[pinboy3niner]

43. You know that if the rules allowed, I'd be more specific

But we know, by their CAPS and their fonts ye shall know them. :)

[pinboy3niner]

44. I know you and I, Josh, are aware--and on top of--the propaganda

What's really encouraging is that so many others here can see it.

[Whats_Happening]

40. What I find morbidly fascinating is the (non-DU) western Gaddafi apologists --

Lizzie Phelan, who was never prettier than in her final video from Libya (before she had to sail in rough seas to Malta, along with that Dutch model who had a connection with a Gaddafi son. There is some justice in this world: they had a little fear on that voyage, and more than a little seasickness) -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8KJu0tMT2s

Mahdi Nazemroaya, who even after Canada saved his ass and rescued him back home to Her Majesty's provinces, continues to shill for Gaddafi --

And what about Franklin Lamb? Clearly an old white American anti-Semite, who was at least enough of a journalist to admit that Gaddafi's forces weren't doing so well at the end (and so became persona non grata amongst the pro-Gaddafi westerners) -- speculating that Libyans were just docile, childlike people, and so would accept whatever power ruled over them (he said it sounded Orientalist, and yes it was.) -- http://www.youtube.com/user/108morris108#p/u/40/wcAnAvds7EI

"Junglesurfer" on youtube, some aging Australian trustafarian vegan, who has enough time to shout Viva Gaddafi, when he's not explaining to us about how the London 2012 mascots are the thin end of the wedge for the Illuminati, or how Princess Beatrice's ridiculous hat at the royal wedding was a sign that all those elites worship "serpent gods" --

Leonorenlibia -- a Spanish woman blogger, as pro-Gaddafi and as delusional as any of them, and

108morris108 (that's a youtube handle) -- this obviously Jewish American who now lives in London and who hates the Jews, who has interviewed most of these pro-Gaddafi delusionals. Has anyone else noticed how balding morris was always careful to wear a fedora when he interviewed Leonore? And the way they always smiled at each other with such warmth at the end of their pro-Gaddafi delusion-fests? That's the only thing I won't blame them for; we all have to find love somewhere. (I wish I could find it myself, but that's a whole 'nother issue.)

Again, like I said, I have become morbidly fascinated with the western Gaddafi apologists. :shrug:

[pinboy3niner]

41. ROFL!

I really have to hand it to you for your knowledge about these propagandists. As on top of this as you clearly are, you ought to be posting regularly here.

Welcome to DU, Whats_Happening. I think you'll make a nice addition here. :)

[joshcryer]

42. Wow @ Franklin Lamb, "docile almost childlike people." Wow. No words.

I was aware of most of those but that's a good call out.

[ellisonz]

48. Welcome!

Eat crow propagandists:toast:

[pinboy3niner]

50. "Eat crow propagandists"

Obviiously, you're familiar with their crap, ellisonz.

And thanks for your contributions here. :toast:

[joshcryer]

45. As Libya War Winds Down, Security Consultants Tout Iraq, Afghan Experience

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-22/as-libya-war-winds-down-security-consultants-tout-iraq-afghan-experience.html">As Libya War Winds Down, Security Consultants Tout Iraq, Afghan Experience
Want to do a deal in post-Qaddafi Libya? Head to the Cafe Oya in the back of Tripoli’s Radisson Blu Al Mahary, where visitors without proper ID must check their AK- 47s at the hotel door.

Diplomats, reporters, businessmen, and representatives of the National Transitional Council, the rebel government set up in February, sit at a dozen small tables discussing the country’s volatile future through a haze of cigarette smoke. Conversation over strong coffee flits between the fighting around Sirte, who will hold positions in the soon-to-be-created interim government -- delayed by bickering between Islamists and secular Libyans -- and who gets the billions of dollars of still-frozen Qaddafi assets.

...

Other security consultants are staked out at the hotel in search of the business that inevitably accompanies Mideast turmoil. One rebel council insider compares the consultants to flies buzzing around. Contractors are trying to gather as much information as possible about anybody willing to pay--security companies, oil companies, business ventures who are already here or want to start here.

...

Being first on the ground comes with complications. SicuroGroup and GardaWorld need a business license: There’s nowhere to apply for one. “We want to be compliant. If you tell me there’s tax to be paid, I’m happy with it, tell me the rules,” Wilcox says. Yet, he adds, every official they speak with is afraid to sign anything now, for fear of being accused of abusing his interim power.

Vultures. Real reason is that they don't want to make deals with the west as a show of occupying forces. Interesting article nevertheless.

[pinboy3niner]

46. In memory of Troy Davis

Time for a break in our thread...

[pinboy3niner]

47. Libya holds back advance on last Kadhafi strongholds

By Rory Mulholland | AFP – 31 mins ago


Forces loyal to Libya's new rulers said they were holding back on Thursday from advancing on Moamer Kadhafi's last strongholds despite their capture of two key southern oases.

NATO said that its aircraft had again pounded Kadhafi's remaining armour, a day after the alliance announced it was extending its Libya campaign for another 90 days.

Commanders said that new regime forces were in control of all three main towns in the Al-Jufra oasis on Thursday, 24 hours after they announced the capture of Libya's largest desert city, Sabha, in the deep south.

The defeat of Kadhafi loyalists in the two Saharan oases left his remaining forces in his hometown of Sirte on the central Mediterranean coast and the desert city of Bani Walid to its southwest effectively cut off from any line of escape to Libya's remote southern borders.

"Al-Jufra -- Hun, Waddan and Sokna -- is liberated," a military spokesman in Libya's third largest city Misrata said in a statement early on Thursday.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/libya-holds-back-advance-last-kadhafi-strongholds-100946470.html

[ellisonz]

49. Zintan Brigade East of Sirte Low on Ammunation

2 hours 14 min ago - Libya

Troops advancing on Muammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte from the east have put off any offensive for a week due to lack of ammunition, a brigade commander said.

"Fighting has been stopped for a week. We are facing a shrotage of ammunition," Commander Mustafa bin Dardef of the Zintan Brigade, told AFP. His troops are deployed 25 km east of Sirte.

Bin Dardef said he was heading to Libya's main eastern city of Benghazi with a group of his men to try to organise new supplies.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya

The advance will have to come from another direction. My best guess is that Gaddafi is in Sirte.

[mark7sys]

52. On Propaganda

pinboy3niner writes:

Some innocents may be deluded into buying that crap. It sounds good, after all, and hits the buzzwords of 'imperialism' and 'colonization'.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1976082&mesg_id=1983345

I'll try to summarize some of the discussions I have observed on this subject.

On the one hand, there is this train of thought regarding attitudes within donee countries:
“Someone explain to me WHY so many countries want America to give them shit and do stuff but then complain about some imaginary 'Empire'.”

On the other hand, there is this train of thought concerning attitudes towards America and NATO from observer countries around the world:
“If US balks at supplying assistance when asked, it's exercising western arrogance towards the needy or toward those particular people / countries which don't matter much to their agenda (and, moreover, it amounts to hypocrisy and self-contradiction with respect to the values it preaches), but if US acts then (in the sight of onlookers) it's all about imperialism & colonialism.”

Well, the US is (IMHO) largely at fault for repeatedly putting themselves in positions in which they are damned-if-they-do and damned-if-they-don't.... But if they are going to be damned regardless, they might as well give doing the right thing a try.

For any lurkers here, please take the trouble to rec these threads. We get a LOT of unreccers here from those pushing the Gaddafi propaganda.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1976082&mesg_id=1983163

Thanks to the Internet Age and the efforts of people like you dedicated folks here, there is much which I can to to inform myself. Sadly, though, I have yet to uncover the rationale for promoting Gaddafi and disparaging NATO.

If I wish to know what quasi-libertarians think about aid to Libya, I can appeal to Ron Paul. A Tea Bagger representative might object to involvement in Libya on the basis of government spending, most or all of which is deemed to be bad … although, in practice, I would expect most TB adherents to agree with the attitude of the typical conservative that what's good for the military-industrial complex is good for America.

But when it comes to uncovering the outlook of putative progressives which object to liberté, égalité et fraternité, I really don't know where to start. There are, I gather, a large number of persons of this description lurking here and regularly unrecing, and yet I (a late arrival) have yet to see any of them make their case.

Can anyone here point me to thoughtful expositions by self-styled progressives which outline the nature of their objections to providing support for Libyan freedom and self-determination?

Perhaps I will be persuaded … but that can never happen so long as I remain unaware of what case can be made.

[tabatha]

53. That is always what surprised me.

Quick one-liner bombs of anti-NATO sentences.
No response or discussion or explanation for why.

Then as far as atrocities were concerned, not a peep about Gaddafi's.
But hysterical, caps and stars about the FFs mistreatment - which has yet to be investigated.

Having observed the South African situation, I wonder whether those same people would have been hysterical about the necklacing and revenge killing by the victims of apartheid. In any situation where there is brutality against a people, not all of those people are forgiving and forgetting. Some of them nurse deep trauma wounds, and are mad enough to exact revenge. But it is always a small percentage who seek revenge. Yet, some will use that to smear the whole population as being revengeful - which is an insult to those who have stepped up to the plate of forgiving and forgetting, despite having being brutalized. And almost every family in Libya has been a victim of Gaddafi's regime - and the bulk of them are moving on with their lives in a positive manner.

[mark7sys]

59. The anti-interventionist stance

Brutality is brutality, and it is, of course, a good thing to work to suppress it no matter where it is coming from. It makes little sense, as you point out, to only decry the brutality on one side. But if we were (somehow) obliged to criticize ONLY one side, is it more logical to choose the revenge-motivated side, or the side which employs unprovoked brutality in the pursuit of power and larceny?

The incongruity of the typical anti-interventionist stance is so profound and so enormous that it is difficult even to take in, just as an ant must be challenged to recognize the presence of an elephant. It should go without saying that it is the unprovoked brutality which pours gasoline on the fire: without that, there wouldn't BE a revenge problem. But few people talk about this, or even appear to recognize it.

Blaming the victim seems to be a game as old as time … or, at least, as old as dirt.

If I understand you correctly, the real story here is that Libyan citizens have shown themselves to be overwhelmingly willing, for the good of the nation, to move on.

[tabatha]

65. Yes, that was the point.

The bad behavior of some of the South African "freedom fighters" did/should not delegitimize the installation of democracy in that country, and their behavior should not be used to paint all of the South African "freedom fighters" as bad. There were of course, those people that did - some with whom I had arguments.

The bad behavior of some of the Libyan "freedom fighters" did/should not delegitimize the installation of democracy in that country, and their behavior should not be used to paint all of the Libyan "freedom fighters" as bad. There were of course, those people that did, as on DU.

Most South Africans have moved on, and for the most democracy has been way better. There are problems. Crime, unemployment, etc - but they have a democracy to deal with it.

The same will be true in Libya. There will be problems. I think they will not have a poverty problem, once moneys are shared more fairly. Who knows, they could have a better democracy than the US. But, there will have to be a lot of healing - it has been horribly traumatic, even more so than South Africa.

[al bupp]

54. This post is fairly thoughtful on the topic...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4815856&mesg_id=4816823

I never did get around to composing a response. FWIW, the entire thread contains some interesting point & counterpoint to the question of western intervention in Libya.

[tabatha]

56. I just read the long post by Purity of Essence.

I have never seen so many factual errors in a post on Libya.

Absolutely incredible.

Hardly "Purity of Essence" rather "Distortion of Essence".

ON EDIT - copied the post, to comment on various statements - comments in parentheses

The protests were not large in the early phases (false), and there was violence in all of the video I've seen (false). Shots were fired at the protesters in Tripoli, but they also burned government buildings.(false)

The oft-touted footage of the horrible massacre in Zawiyah is of a crowd that's chanting and marching, accompanied by a few armed rebels in the front of the procession as they approached a military roadblock. (false) Guns are seen in the crowd (false), and when they're fired upon, they run and we see automatic weapons fire coming from a truck in the crowd and a three-man team retreating with a tripod-mounted, belt-fed heavy machine gun that is set for action. The reporter is a Murdoch employee and goes on to tell of one of these innocent young civilian males getting instructions for an RPG and going off with it while yelling "God is Great". (where is this? funny that Fox News has attacked the Libya intervention)

The bloodshed is reported to be 24 in a Tripoli incident (where there was violence) 24 in a Benghazi incident and 10 in another Benghazi incident, where reports also show that it was started by the protester throwing rocks at police.(false) The other incidents have less than 10 deaths.(false) There were no incidents of attacking innocent, singing civilians.(false) The 1200 people killed at Abu Salim in 1996 were largely Islamist Revolutionaries who had been on a months-long killing spree of police and soldiers(false), including an assassination of Qaddafi himself. By all accounts, they rioted, took at least 2 guards hostage--one of whom was killed or died--and the security forces over-reacted.(false) This is not an example of innocent victims, yet their being murderous fundamentalist revolutionaries in a riot is never said (false); it's just an example of how he killed 1200 of his own people.

Qaddafi did NOT threaten to kill civilians, he threatened to hunt down armed revolutionaries door to door; most governments would do something similar in an analogous situation. This threat does not constitute guaranteed proof that he'd go bayoneting babies.(false)

In 2009, he forced the French "Total" company to renegotiate their deal under threat of nationalization, reducing the amount of OIL they could take for their efforts from 50% to 27%. He did this to others, too, not making many friends. In October of 2010, Chevron decided to leave Libya due to its inability to find new fields where allowed to explore, and because of the onerous fees and restrictions to be allowed to do business. Somewhere around that time he put a freeze on new foreign deals, although I need to corroborate that story, so let's put that on ice 'til I do my homework. (Gas companies in US and UK did backroom deals with Gaddafi, the profits of which went to favored families in Libya.)

The Provisional Government threatened Western Governments when beseeching them for recognition, saying that they would remember those who helped and those who DIDN'T in their future business dealings. When it looked like the rebellion was working, and the propagandists started to believe their own propaganda, the French formally recognized them as the legitimate government. Suddenly, Qaddafi struck back, doing very well. The French KNEW that they'd be cut out of ANY oil once they'd done that, and the die was cast. (Hogwash)

All outcry that there was an oil component to the hunger for war was systematically shouted down by people saying that it had no basis in fact because Qaddafi had been no problem in providing access to the oil. Not only is this not true, it's REALLY not true. (Hogwash)

The French and British made a military pact on November 2, 2010, with plans for a joint wargame called "Southern Mistral" to be played on March 21, 2011: the game had the two militaries staging in France to overfly a neutral country ("Navarre") in order to mount an offensive operation against a southern dictatorship that had interfered with their economic interests. (Really?)

It looks very much as if a pretext was being awaited, and a handy revolution popped up to fit the bill. (Yes, the self-immolation of a Tunisian worker was SO planned.)

The reason why Benghazi and Derna are such hotbeds for revolt is that they are the home areas for the Islamist Revolutionaries who went on a rampage in 1995-6, and many of the prisoners who died were their friends and family. (Hogwash)

In short: there's a big oil component that is scrupulously ignored, no real threat of the guaranteed atrocities that are held as "PROOF" of the need to intervene and no acknowledgment of the ongoing civil strife and theocratic undercurrents. (Nope, no oil issue at all - see graphs and tables by Reuters, and the honoring of all existing contracts including those of Russia and China.)

Going to war on "proof" of something we presume is going to happen is ridiculously flimsy, but here it doesn't even bear scrutiny. Where are the mass executions in Ras Lanuf or Ajdabiya? Where WERE they at the time: he had already retaken these cities before the march on Benghazi? (Invalid statement)

We went to war for soothsayers claiming to know the future, and specifically ignoring any facts that didn't support their claim. Whether driven by sincere emotion or not, they were distorting the reality at hand and deliberately playing upon people's emotions. (Hogwash)

Our President said that journalists were captured, sexually assaulted and killed. At the point when he said that, two journalists had been killed: one in an unmarked car that sped through a public street during fighting, and one who was shot videotaping another street fight; the former was not obviously a journalist, and the other was in a battle. The only journalist who had been sexually assaulted had been groped, had every inch of her body touched, had her hair stroked as someone said that she'd die in the morning, but she specifically says that no hands EVER went under her clothes. Not nice, certainly "sexual assault" to some degree, but these incidents do not fit what the President was trying to convey to the listeners. He makes it sounds like many journalists (it was one group of 5) had been captured, raped and killed afterward in captivity. The ones who died had nothing to do with this group; they were in incidents of literal gunfire. There was no systematic and repeated "sexual assault" of numerous people, and the level of assault here is not what one would expect from the emotionally charged condemnation of our President. (Distortion of what the President said.)

Personally, I feel it's an outrage to have our sympathies played upon with grotesque omissions, suppositions and exaggerations to justify a war that sets the precedent for violating national sovereignty whenever we damned well please. Many people have been killed since then. Children have been killed. Had we not intervened, chances are rather good it would be over by now, but now, the killing goes on. The innocent rebels are also conveniently holing up in areas with civilians, so the outrage of Qaddafi using human shields reeks of hypocrisy. (Total garbage)

Those who declare themselves "right" and exempt themselves from fair depiction of the facts or reasonable civil comportment are assholes, both on the anti-interventionist and interventionist side.
(No FACTS have been presented so far)

I hope this answers the questions, and it is done in accord to someone having actually taken the time to compose a message to convey a point. You'll note that none of this is cut-and-paste; the time was taken specifically for you due to the overall conducive tone of your post. (Yes, it states that opinions have been extracted from nothing close to reality. This piece would fail as a high school history paper.)

[al bupp]

57. A long post, indeed

It does, though, demonstrate the type of thinking, based on numerous suppositions and disputable assertions that lie behind the viewpoint.

[mark7sys]

61. You beat me to it, I am grateful to see

Well, our author promised us a list of “ginned-up pretexts”, and he delivered, I have to admit.

The only problem in Libya, we read, is from a few Islamic troublemakers which occasionally go on rampages. The best bet for Libya is to crush such uprisings as efficiently as possible: this will result in the minimal possible number of total killings.

Wow: how can anyone argue against that reasoning? The only problem in the otherwise placid Libya of The Green Book comes from the extremist riffraff. Anybody can see that. :sarcasm:


Re. the oil connection … someone might correct me, but I would venture to make the following distinction. Private companies are (naturally) concerned with their own profits. But nations are concerned with national economies and, more broadly, with the world oil market, for the state of the world market profoundly effects a national economy. The critical factor with respect to the world oil market is how much oil is offered and sold; this is the case with regard to Libya or anyone else. It is of minor consequence how the oil revenues are divvied up between this player and that player. The significant impact on the world comes from the fact that the oil is sold at all.

Power and wealth does not come from oil in the ground; it comes from oil sold. Libyan oil will be sold, whoever happens to control it.

The notion that France would provoke a war because Daffi was jerking around a French oil company is just laughable. (We might well ask how it could be that there are not such wars with such a basis being fought constantly every day of our lives.)


I wonder if author PurityOfEssence is aware that Milton Allimadi's estimable “Black Star News” has now revealed the REAL motivation of the French. According to BSNews:

“The anticipated deals, including France building a nuclear reactor for energy for Libya, never materialized: it's believed that's what provoked Sarkozy's hostility and determination to oust and kill al-Quathafi.”
http://blackstarnews.com/news/135/ARTICLE/7622/2011-09-13.html

Moral of the story: Don't cross the French!

[ellisonz]

63. (delusional)

[joshcryer]

70. I've yet to encounter a coherent exposition.

1) Anti-imperialism. Good rationale. Incoherent because Gaddafi was pro-imperialist, with around http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL5E7JV1PW20110831">$150 billion in investments overseas, and oil exploration leases that were http://dazzlepod.com/cable/09TRIPOLI438/">expanded and extended until 2032 (around the time the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Libya">oil runs out). Meanwhile Gaddafi's policies in Africa were http://www.hudson-ny.org/2000/gaddafi-mercenaries-in-libya">themselves imperialist; the US backs dictators with aid and money, it's imperialism, Gaddafi does it, it must be, too.

2) Anti-islamism. Decent rationale. Incoherent, however, because a protracted civil war does not magically marginalize islamists, in fact, as Afghanistan has showed, it empowers them. What better recruiting element than people who have lost loved ones during a protracted battle? You deal with fundamentalist islamists the same way you deal with fundamentalist Christians. You are http://www.npr.org/2011/09/21/140665324/what-role-will-islamists-play-in-libya">inclusive and you build a system which confines them to the rules of law and justice. Truly, islamists are not fundamentally different than teabaggers, and we do OK.

3) Anti-racism. A worthy goal. But utterly incoherent. Gaddafi's own racism is http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/19/1007296/-Helter-Skelter:-Qaddafis-African-Adventure">not particularly controversial. Nor is http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/12/1015087/-Racism-in-Libya?via=user">racism in the Arab world. To fix this problem of racism you must be rid of the element that creates and foments it (Gaddafi's faux Pan-Africanism).

3) Anti-illegality. Truly a good goal. Incoherent because it's based on falsehoods, as http://bit.ly/mYpE0i">this image shows. The UN resolution was http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12900706">extremely broad in what could or could not be construed as protecting civilians. The illegality argument is merely grasping at straws.

4) The protests were marginal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z41kQvx4uKw">False. 21 cities had http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4872438&mesg_id=4873041">popular protests. Egypt had roughly 5% of the people rise up. Libya had 20% if you are conservative, 90% if you are liberal.

5) Gaddafi had popular support. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tripoli_(2011)">False. Tripoli fell with only 2000 combatants. A city of two million fell to the whims of 2000 armed men. Proof that Gaddafi did not in fact have popular support.

There are many many other arguments, Libya had a higher standard of living than the rest of Africa, etc, but they become increasingly apologia for Gaddafi's policies as opposed to arguments against the revolutionaries. Arguments against intervention are all well and good, but I suspect had no intervention occurred there would be fewer and fewer of those arguments. I was anti-war during Kosovo, and I was against NATO going in during Kosovo, indeed, NATOs killing of civilians in that war probably merited that position. However, since it actually happened, we don't know the extent to which it stopped what was going on (though it undoubtedly stopped it). However, we know the (earlier) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo">Siege of Sarajevo was long, protracted, and unquestionably ended by NATO forces. Can we take a lesson from that? I think it would be foolhardy to say, after the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Misrata">Siege of Misrata, that the Libyan people would not have continued fighting. Add in the islamist element, and after the massive migrations of civilians fleeing, you are looking at a very long and protracted civil war that would've been very bloody and would've destabilized the entire region far worse than can be imagined.

The one of few coherent positions to take would be one that is for Libyan self-determination, and one that supports their pleas for outside help. As I said before, it would've been ideal if that force wasn't NATO. That didn't happen. It is therefore incoherent to just damn the Libyan revolution because of NATO.

[tabatha]

55. Anti-Gaddafi civilians 'executed in Sirte'

An NTC commander on the outskirts of Sirte, separately showed Reuters a handwritten list of families whose members were said to have been executed in Sirte. The list, which he said he compiled with information from people inside the city, included the Safruny family.

The commander gave his first name as Saleh but declined to give his family name. He said other attacks on suspected NTC sympathisers had been carried out.

"One man, they cut him like this," Saleh said, dragging his finger from the ends of his mouth across his cheeks. "Another, they cut his lips."

Humanitarian groups have expressed concern about the situation in Sirte, and the fears have been compounded by reports from NTC fighters who say their family members inside have been prevented from leaving.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8782856/Anti-Gaddafi-civilians-executed-in-Sirte.html

[tabatha]

58. Libya military site yields possible radioactive material By the CNN Wire Staff

Sabha, Libya (CNN) -- A military site containing what appears to be radioactive material has been uncovered by revolutionary forces near the southern Libyan city of Sabha.

Military forces loyal to the country's National Transitional Council took a CNN crew Thursday to the site, not far from Sabha in the Sahara desert. The crew saw two large warehouses there, one containing thousands of blue barrels, some marked with tape saying "radioactive," and several plastic bags of yellow powder sealed with the same tape.

The material has not been confirmed as being radioactive, but the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the United Nations' nuclear watchdog agency, confirmed Thursday that the Libyan government had yellowcake stored near Sabha.

Yellowcake is processed uranium ore that can, after extensive refining, be used to produce enriched uranium for nuclear purposes.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/09/22/libya.war/

[Swede]

60. Anti-Gaddafi fighters take Sabha

Forces loyal to Libya's new government have taken control of the strategic city of Sabha, which controls the main road south to Niger.

Fighters have been firing into the air to celebrate its capture, which means anti-Gaddafi forces now control southern Libya.

The desert town was one of the last strongholds of Col Muammar Gaddafi.

It was seen as a possible hiding place for the ousted leader and senior aides, but his whereabouts remain unknown.






http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15029062

[tabatha]

62. On the front lines with Libyan rebels

Brooklyn, New York (VICE.COM) -- The first time I went to Libya, in 2010, I was arrested just two days into my trip. Filming a documentary for VICE, I was detained for shooting where the authorities thought I shouldn't, beginning endless rounds of questions, emphatic yelling and head-shaking incredulity at my claims of innocence -- and, of course, the requisite implications that I was a spy. When I was finally released, I swore I would never return to the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. But that promise was quickly broken, and I found myself back in the country almost exactly a year later, in the midst of a chaotic and violent revolution.

...

But the big question looming over everything was: "Why are they fighting?"

Everyone I asked -- bankers, shop clerks, students, construction workers, oil engineers and ex-Gaddafi loyalists -- offered the same answer: "Freedom." It was like the end of Braveheart every time a rebel looked into my eyes and said it. One 16-year-old told me, "I will die so the others can at least breathe free air." Heady stuff for a teenager, especially when most of the rebels aren't old enough to have known a political system other than Gaddafism. Risking your life for freedom is one thing. But risking it for the concept of freedom is something else entirely.

See the rest of The Rebels of Libya at VICE.COM

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/09/21/vice.libyan.rebels/index.html?&hpt=hp_c2

[ellisonz]

64. CNN's Ben Wedeman finds radioactive material in Sabha.

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/09/22/nr-wedeman-libya-radioactive-material.cnn

[pinboy3niner]

66. LIBYAN REVOLUTION DAY 218: CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 1:15 AM FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 23

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, UTC +1 hour, GMT +2 hours










Inside one of Gaddafi's torture cells
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-Inside-Gaddafis-torture-chamber-The-bloodstained-cells-inside-primary-school-used-brutalise-enemies.html

[pinboy3niner]

67. Libya NTC faces credibility test at Gaddafi strongholds

Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:04pm GMT

• NTC says it controls string of desert towns in deep south

• UN atomic agency says Gaddafi stored raw uranium near Sabha

• NTC keen to show it can establish firm control over country


By William Maclean and Emma Farge


TRIPOLI, Sept 23 (Reuters) - Libya's new government said it had tightened its grip on oasis towns which sided with Muammar Gaddafi, but faced a tough fight to take two remaining strongholds loyal to the ousted leader and bolster its credibility.

Forces of the National Transitional Council (NTC) said they controlled a string of desert towns in Libya's deep south, although they said Gaddafi loyalists were still holding out in pockets of at least one oasis.

...


The NTC says it also controls Jufra, to the northeast of Sabha, and the nearby oasis towns of Sokna, Waddan, and Houn.

A manhunt for Gaddafi, who has been in hiding for weeks although he occasionally issues defiant audio messages, was drawing closer to its target, said Bani.

"We are doing our best looking for the tyrant. There is some news here and there that he ran away from Sabha to another place but it cannot be confirmed," he said.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KM4U720110922?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

68. Gaddafi's ex-premier jailed after fleeing Libya

Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:06pm GMT

By William Maclean and Emma Farge


TRIPOLI, Sept 22 (Reuters) - Libya's neighbour Tunisia jailed Muammar Gaddafi's former prime minister on Thursday, and Libya's new rulers said they were tightening their grip on the desert towns where Gaddafi himself may be hiding.

In the highest profile detention of a Gaddafi associate to date, a Tunisian court sentenced ex-prime minister Al Baghdadi Ali al-Mahmoudi to six months in jail on charges of illegally entering the country on Wednesday evening.

...


"(He) was arrested because he entered Tunisian territory illegally ... He did not have an entry stamp in his passport."

The justice minister in Libya's new government said Tripoli would request that the former prime minister be extradited to stand trial in Libya.

"Baghdadi directly oversaw the operations which had to do with the killings of Libyans," the minister, Mohammed al-Alagi, said on Al Arabiya television station.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KM3X820110922?sp=true

[ellisonz]

71. Interesting considering the convoy the Tunisians apprehendedthe other day.

Muammar where are you, you big rat!

[tabatha]

73. He is being tracked (apparently) south of Sabha in the desert

not by NATO. We'll see if this story holds up.

[pinboy3niner]

74. I've looked, and haven't seen follow-up on that

Seems likely they were fleeing loyalists forced to go via Algeria because of revolutionary forces controlling the Libyan border with Tunisia.

But Tunisia is not a good place for Gaddafi to run to.

[ellisonz]

77. They're probably trying to skirt rebel and foreign government outposts.

The Sahara is huge and they are using 4 x 4s with off-road capability.

I would guess Algeria or Niger is their immediate destination.

Gaddafi has propagandized about Al-Qaeda and Islamists but money talks.

[pinboy3niner]

78. Mahmoudi 'biggest fish' to be netted so far in hunt for top Gaddafi associates

Ian Black, The Guardian's Middle East Editor, explains why the arrest is significant:

Al-Baghdadi Ali al-Mahmoudi was effectively Libya's prime minister until the overthrow of the regime last month – and thus the biggest fish to be netted in the hunt for senior associates of Muammar Gaddafi.

Seen as a technocrat with reformist tendencies, he also served as chairman of the Libyan Investment Authority, the country's sovereign wealth fund. He fled across the border to Djerba in Tunisia just before the fall of Tripoli.

He appears to have tried to create the impression that he had in fact defected when he told an Arabic TV channel in early September that he supported the rebels of the National Transitional Council. But most Libyans are likely to see him as a man who stayed loyal to Gaddafi almost to the end.

Tunisia's recognition of the NTC means he will almost certainly be returned to Libya for investigation and trial.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/sep/22/libya-yemen-middle-east-unrest#block-16

[pinboy3niner]

69. Embassies that have re-opened in Libya or will do so soon - Reuters

Besides the United States, which raised the U.S. flag over its re-opened embassy Thursday, Reuters lists:

• CANADA - Government officials said on Sept 13 Canada has reestablished its diplomatic mission in Tripoli. Ottawa hoped reopening the mission would help Canadian businesses win contracts as Libya rebuilds.

• FRANCE - France opened its embassy in Tripoli on Aug. 29 after a gap of six months.

• IRAN - Ali Asghar Naseri, the Islamic Republic's Ambassador to Libya, has returned to Tripoli," the foreign ministry said on Sept. 14.

• ITALY - Italy reopened its embassy in Libya from Sept. 2, the foreign ministry said.

• POLAND - Poland says it re-opened its embassy in Tripoli on Sept. 15. It had operated from a temporary location in Benghazi.

• ROMANIA - Foreign Affairs Minister Teodor Baconschi said on Sept 20 that Romania planned to reopen the Embassy of Tripoli as soon as possible.

• SOUTH KOREA - South Korea on Sept. 8 reopened its embassy in Tripoli, an official said.

• TURKEY - Turkey said on Sept. 2 it has reopened its embassy in the Tripoli and appointed Ali Kemal Aydin as its new ambassador.

• BRITAIN - Britain re-established its full diplomatic presence in the Libyan capital on Sept 5, seven months after closing its embassy in Tripoli.


(Reporting by David Cutler, London Editorial Reference Unit)


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KL5JN20110922

[pinboy3niner]

72. Revolutionaries have taken control of the southwestern town of Ubari - CNN

Elsewhere, revolutionaries have taken control of the southwestern town of Ubari, chasing Moammar Gadhafi loyalists from the area as Libya's new leaders continued to gain momentum, National Transitional Council field commander Al-Amin Shtawi said Thursday.

The announcement comes days after the NTC received the significant milestone of being recognized by South Africa, Algeria and the African Union as Libya's legitimate rulers.

"Due to the role and obligations that the National Transitional Council has fulfilled and due to the African Union position, Algerian-NTC (diplomatic) relations will move from semi-official to official," said Algerian Foreign Minister Mourad Medelci, according to state-run Radio Algerie. Algeria had been among Gadhafi's biggest allies in the region, and is where his wife and three of his children fled to in August.

Troops loyal to Libya's new leaders have been putting pressure on several regime holdout cities in recent days. Along with Thursday's military action in Ubari, fighters have also clashed with Gadhafi loyalists in the northern town of Bani Walid and in Sirte.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/22/world/africa/libya-war/index.html?hpt=iaf_c1

[pinboy3niner]

75. American flag raised at U.S. Embassy in Tripoli - PHOTO

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/GN56WQm9ECEP3.4dWUAkkw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD02MTI7cT04NTt3PTQxMw--/

US ambassador to Libya Gene A. Cretz , centre, stands at the podium during a flag raising ceremony for the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli, Libya, Thursday, Sept. 22, 2011. (AP Photo Abdel Magid al-Fargany)


Related Article
US Embassy reopens in Libya; Gadhafi ex-PM caught
http://news.yahoo.com/us-embassy-reopens-libya-gadhafi-ex-pm-caught-214949483.html

[tabatha]

76. Libya conflict: Anti-Gaddafi fighters take Sabha

The last remaining Gaddafi strongholds are surrounded by troops loyal to Libya's interim government

Fighters have been firing into the air to celebrate its capture, which means anti-Gaddafi forces now control southern Libya.

The desert town was one of the last strongholds of Col Muammar Gaddafi.

It was seen as a possible hiding place for the ousted leader and senior aides, but his whereabouts remain unknown.

Libya's leader for four decades, Col Gaddafi has been in hiding since opposition forces captured the capital Tripoli late last month.

Two other Gaddafi strongholds - Bani Walid south-east of Tripoli and the fugitive leader's birthplace Sirte - are still offering strong resistance but are surrounded by troops loyal to the National Transitional Council.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15029062

[pinboy3niner]

79. Fleeing Syrian activists are finding a haven in Libya

Posted on Thursday, 09.22.11

By HANNAH ALLAM
McClatchy Newspapers


BENGHAZI, Libya -- Syrian activists fleeing persecution for taking part in the 6-month-old revolt against their government are flocking to Libya, where they face no visa requirements and can find work easily because of the exodus of foreign laborers during the uprising against Moammar Gadhafi.

With fresh bullet wounds, emotional trauma and little cash, the Syrians trade experiences with one another largely without fear of Syrian President Bashar Assad's security apparatus. They also are consulting with Libyan activists on the merit of armed rebellion, with many now convinced that taking up weapons is their only hope for toppling Assad, who remains firmly in place despite months of peaceful protests, tougher sanctions and calls from the United States and Europe for his ouster.

Several Syrians who hail from the flashpoint towns of Deraa, Homs and Hama, interviewed here this week, said a minority of protesters already had used weapons against Assad's forces. They described rogue attacks on checkpoints and convoys, and one told of his role in bombing a bus that was carrying militia members.

The only obstacles to wider violence, they said, are a scarcity of guns and the threat of regime airstrikes.

"We're discussing weapons, but we don't even have weapons," said Amer Abdelkarim Rifai, 47, a carpenter from Homs who fled to Libya a month ago after serving time in prison for protesting. "Our cities are ghost towns now, with schools closed and shops empty, but we'll die of starvation before we stop this revolution."

...


http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/22/2420460/fleeing-syrian-activists-are-finding.html

[pinboy3niner]

80. Yemen TV: President Saleh back from Saudi Arabia

By AHMED AL-HAJ - Associated Press | AP – 24 mins ago.


SANAA, Yemen (AP) — Yemeni state television and radio say President Ali Abdullah Saleh has returned to the country from Saudi Arabia after an absence of more than three months following a rocket attack on his compound.

The media say Saleh arrived in Sanaa by private plane at dawn on Friday, as heavy fighting raged in the Yemeni capital. There were no other details.
...

http://news.yahoo.com/yemen-tv-president-saleh-back-saudi-arabia-051927014.html

[pinboy3niner]

83. Updated AP story:

...

Sanaa has been gripped by street battles and exchanges of shelling between the elite Republican Guards, led by Saleh's son, and tribesmen opposing Saleh as well as military units who had defected.

Nearly 100 people have been killed in Sanaa and elsewhere in Yemen since Sunday.
...

For the protest leaders, Saleh's return bode ill for the already explosive situation.

"His return means more divisions, more escalation and confrontations," said Abdel-Hadi al-Azizi, a protest leader, told The Associated Press. "We are on a very critical escalation."

The anti-Saleh protesters have called for more rallies after Friday prayers.

Updated report with more details:
http://news.yahoo.com/yemen-tv-president-saleh-back-saudi-arabia-051927014.html

[pinboy3niner]

81. NATO confident Libya air war to end within three months

by Staff Writers
Brussels (AFP) Sept 22, 2011


NATO can finish its air campaign in Libya within the next three months, the operations commander said Thursday, as remnants of the ousted regime are now isolated in three pockets of the country.

Asked for an assessment a day after NATO allies extended the mission by another 90 days, Lieutenant General Charles Bouchard told a press briefing: "I'm highly confident we can complete this mission well within this timeframe."

Bouchard said resistance among forces loyal to ousted dictator Moamer Kadhafi was restricted to "only three isolated pockets" -- Kadhafis hometown of Sirte with a strip of coastal access; an area in the town of Bani Walid to the west; and another section around Al Fugaha to the south.

However, after a six-month-old air war, the Canadian general said progress towards NATO's final goal would be largely "based on NTC forces on ground... and also on the will of the regime forces to continue."

...


http://www.spacewar.com/reports/NATO_confident_Libya_air_war_to_end_within_three_months_999.html

[tabatha]

82. Does this look like Iraq?

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/09/22/dougherty-libya-rebel-fundraiser.cnn

[ellisonz]

84. woot

[ellisonz]

85. LAT: Old rivals trade accusations of abuse after Libyan town's fall

Old rivals trade accusations of abuse after Libyan town's fall
Predominantly black refugees from pro-Kadafi Tawurgha may stand accused of war crimes. But the Misurata rebels who drove them out may face charges of ethnic cleansing.

By Patrick J. McDonnell, Los Angeles Times

September 22, 2011, 7:18 p.m.
Reporting from Tawurgha, Libya—

The green flag still flutters from some homes in this desert town, a remnant of its profound loyalty to a longtime patron, Moammar Kadafi, who made green the signature color of his domain.

But the people of Tawurgha, more than 30,000, predominantly black, are all gone, refugees who mostly fled when rebels advanced last month from nearby Misurata with, former residents say, vengeance on their minds.

The town, 25 miles south of Misurata, was subsequently looted, and many homes and shops were burned. It is now a desolate expanse of semi-urban sprawl where disoriented cats forage for food in pillaged supermarkets and sheep and donkeys wander along eerily deserted streets flanked by palm groves and homes fashioned from concrete blocks, now marred by anti-Kadafi graffiti.

With the revolutionaries' victory here, Tawurgha's residents have been barred from returning until a still-undefined process is completed to determine who among them may be guilty of war crimes, say Misurata officials, who accuse the pro-Kadafi Tawurghans of sundry offenses — among them raping women and shelling civilians during months of fighting. The enmity between the two towns is unambiguous and chilling. Reconciliation, a professed goal of Libya's provisional rulers, seems a long way off.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-blacks-20110923,0,7510286.story

The remainder of the article examines the issue very fairly and includes interviews with both Misratans and residents of Tawurgha.

[pinboy3niner]

86. Libya: success 'relied on luck'

David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy relied more on luck than judgment in the Libyan conflict, claims a new report.

6:00AM BST 23 Sep 2011

The Royal United Services Institute’s analysis of the operation said that the success of Nato air strikes relied on “improvisation” and “good luck”, as well as military prowess.


The Prime Minister and his French counterpart received a rapturous reception when they addressed a crowd in Benghazi last week. Their visit, to demonstrate support for the fledgling new government in Libya, came less than a month after the final overthrow of Col Muammar Gaddafi.


However, Mr Cameron and Mr Sarkozy had been left “politically exposed” after the US pulled out of the operation, according to Rusi.


Prof Michael Clarke, the director of the think tank and a contributor to the report, said: “Mr Cameron and Mr Sarkozy became accidental heroes in a civil war, justified – unlike most civil wars – on grounds of principle.

...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8782805/Libya-success-relied-on-luck.html

BBC's report:

Libya conflict: 'Luck' played part in success
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15018143

[pinboy3niner]

87. Families call on NTC for compensation

Published 23 September 2011 08:26

Many Libyans lost their lives fighting against Muammar Gaddafi's forces during the conflict.

Now their families are calling for the National Transitional Council to give them compensation including monthly salaries.

The NTC has promised to look after the victim's families, but that may take some time, as the state's unfrozen funds are yet to trickle in, and security is still a top priority.

Al Jazeera's Hashem Ahelbarra reports from Tripoli, Libya (2:15):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udmo6virJo0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[pinboy3niner]

88. Secrets of a 'super-fixer' in Libya

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:47am GMT

By Emma Farge and Paul Hoskins


BENGHAZI/LONDON, Sept 23 (Reuters) - Flanked by two colleagues, a 60-something Englishman quietly worked the lobby of Benghazi's Tibesti Hotel last week, targeting people likely to be the power brokers in a new Libya.

Approached by a Reuters reporter, the man declined to give his name or even shake hands, describing himself as "a very private person".

Evenings, he was at the bar, smoking cigars and talking to friends -- not in short supply given the number of former British military currently in Benghazi, a rebel stronghold. The men are there, a few of them told Reuters, as fixers or "pathfinders". Their mission is to gather intelligence and build relationships on behalf of UK companies in post-Gaddafi Libya.

His rivals said this man is a "super fixer".

They identified him as John Holmes, a highly decorated former SAS commando and retired British army Major General. This was confirmed by a a western diplomat and a member of Libya's National Transitional Council (NTC) who has held talks with his client, British firm Heritage Oil.

...


Former members of the highly secretive Special Air Service (SAS), or "The Regiment" as it is also known, have a "frontiersman spirit" that makes them particularly well suited to this sort of work, says one person with detailed knowledge and experience of the inner workings of Britain's special forces.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KM3BJ20110923?sp=true

[ellisonz]

91. We Americans aren't very good at empire. In fact...

...we fail miserably in one aspect or another every time we try.

"Some in Britain believe the training given to the special forces, moulding self-starters in an environment where officers must win respect, may make them better suited to the sometimes lonely role of fixer than former U.S. Green Berets, Navy SEALs or members of Delta Force."

[pinboy3niner]

89. Libya restarts gas output to feed power plants

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:36am GMT

• Gas flows to power plants of Benghazi and Zuetina

• Need (for) diesel imports significantly reduced

• Diesel imports cost Libya billions of dollars


By Emma Farge


TRIPOLI, Sept 23 (Reuters) - Libya has restarted its eastern gas fields to feed its large power plants on the Mediterranean, thus reducing the need for diesel after having spent billions of dollars on fuel imports during the seven months of civil war.

Energy firm Sirte Oil's chairman told Reuters gas output has resumed from the Hateiba and Assoumoud gas fields in eastern Libya and supplies were now flowing to coastal power plants.

"We have started producing and sending gas to the power plants of Benghazi and Zuetina. We even sent some power to Egypt the other day," Sirte Oil Chairman Fathi Issa told Reuters by telephone.

"Soon we won't have to use diesel anymore."

...


Issa said Sirte Oil's coastal power plants were now running at around 800 MW out of a total capacity of 1250 MW.


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KN0XI20110923?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

90. Libyan oil flows, foreign workers wait

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:47am GMT

By Emma Farge


BREGA, Libya, Sept 23 - Scribbled in blue marker in Arabic on the walls of Brega oil terminal of Brega is a message meant to cheer returning workers: "Gaddafi is gone and the place has been checked."

Oil production has restarted in some Libyan fields including Sarir in the east, but the near-deserted Sirte Oil headquarters to the east of Muammar Gaddafi's hometown is testament to the damage the conflict has done to the country's main industry.

Amidst a cluster of crude oil storage tanks, gleaming white in the Mediterranean sunshine, stand at least two charred grey ones. The chimney of the site's power plant lies in a gnarled wreck in the courtyard. A warehouse used for weapons storage, hit by a NATO bomb, is a tangle of wood and piping. A stash of missiles nestles in a petrochemical site, stored there by Gaddafi troops who took the gamble that NATO would not target expensive infrastructure.

...


Yet safety remains a major concern, especially after militia killed 17 guards at the nearby Ras Lanuf refinery last week. Brega is probably out of range of even the most sophisticated rockets in Gaddafi's arsenal. But the area is full of mines, and the country is strewn with ordnance dating back to World War Two.

...


"We will bring all the workers back when it's safe. We find something new every day," Issa told Reuters last week.

According to official figures from the National Transitional Council (NTC), 40,000 mines were planted around the Brega area during this year's fighting; Military spokesman Ahmed Bani told Reuters an order for 120,000 from Brazil was placed by a Gaddafi officer during the conflict, suggesting the number could be much higher.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KM21V20110923?sp=true

[ellisonz]

92. AJE: Battle for Sirte Continues

Libyan fighters are entrenched on the outskirts of Sirte's western gates. The city is the hometown and stronghold of the former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. The fighters say they want civilians trapped inside to escape before they start their final advance. But Gaddafi's loyalists are also putting up a fight. Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr reports.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z4mlWSukJM

[pinboy3niner]

93. SPECIAL REPORT - How to win business in Libya

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:47am GMT

By Emma Farge, Lorraine Turner and John Irish


BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) Sept 23 - In August, as rebels fought forces loyal to President Muammar Gaddafi, two representatives of a British business consortium took a "rather long and arduous ferry journey from Malta" to the North African country.

"To describe it as a ferry would be very polite," according to an executive at a London-based global engineering company, whose interests the two men represented. "I think it was a trawler."

The men travelled to Libya at the invitation of the rebel administration. Britain, along with France and the United States, had given political and military support for the uprising against Gaddafi and sponsored the rebel leadership, the National Transitional Council (NTC). This was a chance to close some deals.

"We had people on the ground in Misrata," said the businessman, who spoke by phone on condition of anonymity. "You could still hear ordnance from the centre of Misrata, so it was very much an ongoing situation. But they were already talking about training and equipping fire brigades, training and equipping police."

The visitors keep coming. In the lobby of the Tibesti Hotel in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi, opportunists mix with diplomats, journalists and aid workers. With NATO's help, the rebels have deposed Gaddafi and now control Tripoli, the capital. Elsewhere fierce fighting continues and Gaddafi remains holed up. The country has yet to pay its workers, write a new constitution or even name a transitional government. But it is a land with deep pockets, and plenty of new friends.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KM2Q720110923?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

94. Libya's NTC captures three southern towns

Source: Al Jazeera

Escape route for Muammar Gaddafi now cut off, but combat suspended in tough battles for Bani Walid and Sirte.

Last Modified: 22 Sep 2011 18:40


Commanders with the National Transitional Council (NTC) said their forces now controlled all three main towns in the Al-Jufra oasis, 24 hours after they announced the capture of Libya's largest desert city, Sabha, in the deep south.

"Al-Jufra - Hun, Waddan and Sokna - is liberated," a military spokesman in Libya's third-largest city Misrata said in a statement early on Thursday.

The defeat of Muammar Gaddafi loyalists in the Saharan oases left his remaining forces in his hometown of Sirte on the Mediterranean coast and the desert city of Bani Walid to its west effectively cut off from any line of escape to the south.

...


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/09/2011922152622700880.html

[pinboy3niner]

95. NTC to announce interim government within days

From AJE's Live Blog:

An interim government in Libya will be announced within the next few days and include 22 ministerial portfolios, a spokesman for the North African country's transitional rulers said, according to Reuters.

"We've agreed on a number of portfolios and who would hold the most important ones. There will be 22 portfolios and one vice premier," said Abdel Hafiz Ghoga, a spokesman for the National Transitional Council. "It would be a compact government, a crisis government."

Discussions in Libya to set up a more inclusive interim government have been unproductive before. It remains unclear whether the NTC, still based in the eastern city of Benghazi, can unify a country split along tribal and regional lines.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-23-2011-1122

[pinboy3niner]

96. Libya Grenade Blast Boy Treated In Britain

Source: Sky News

9:04am UK, Friday September 23, 2011

Lisa Holland, foreign affairs correspondent


The first of around 50 Libyan patients injured during the uprising in the country has arrived in Britain for medical treatment.

Sky News was introduced to 15-year-old Abdul Malek Elhamdi nearly three weeks ago in a Tripoli hospital.

He had been taken in with his friend Wadir after they suffered devastating injuries when a grenade they were playing with blew up.

They had discovered a stash of ammunition after it was abandoned in their school by Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's forces, as they fled National Transitional Council fighters.

Wadir died but Abdul survived. He has now been given a chance to get better.

Sky News viewers contacted us offering to help Abdul, and it is their donations which have paid for him to be flown to Britain.

The Libyan government is paying for his treatment here, as well as for treatment for the other patients who will come over.

...

Full story and video (2:38):
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16075525

[pinboy3niner]

97. Syrian refugees in Lebanon fear there is no going home

By Natacha Yazbeck | AFP – 33 mins ago.


Abir, her husband and two sons are bracing for their first winter as Syrian refugees in Lebanon's impoverished mountain area of Wadi Khaled, near the northern border with Syria.

...


Since the regime of President Bashar al-Assad launched a brutal crackdown on pro-democracy protesters in March, more than 3,580 Syrians have registered as refugees with the United Nations in north Lebanon.

...


For Abir, leaving behind her parents and her two-bedroom home in Tal Kalakh was the only choice after her younger brothers -- identical twins -- disappeared in a protest three months ago.

One of them made it back bruised and broken, but alive.

The other was found at the local hospital's morgue and was buried 24 hours before Abir fled to Lebanon.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-refugees-lebanon-fear-no-going-home-104447243.html

[pinboy3niner]

98. Back home, Yemeni president calls for cease-fire

By AHMED AL-HAJ - Associated Press | AP – 7 mins ago.


SANAA, Yemen (AP) — Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh has called for a cease-fire after returning to the country, saying the only way out of the crisis is through negotiations.

The statement from Saleh's office was the first message since his surprise return on Friday to the country from Saudi Arabia, where he has been for more than three months. Saleh was recovering from wounds sustained in a rocket attack on his compound in Sanaa.

In the message, Saleh is also urging political and military figures to a truce. He insists there is no way out of the crisis except through negotiations and talks to end the bloodshed.

Yemen's turmoil escalated this week with fighting between Saleh loyalists and opponents, leaving nearly 100 killed.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
...

http://news.yahoo.com/back-home-yemeni-president-calls-cease-fire-113441369.html

[pinboy3niner]

99. Syrian troops shoot at protesters urging unity

AP – 15 mins ago.


BEIRUT (AP) — Activists say Syrian security forces have opened fire on thousands of protesters calling for the opposition to unite against President Bashar Assad's regime.

Friday's protests came as the European Union agreed on an investment ban in the Syrian oil sector to put more pressure on Assad to end his deadly crackdown on the 6-month-old uprising.

The U.N. estimates 2,600 people have been killed since the revolt began in March.
...

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-troops-shoot-protesters-urging-unity-114132041.html

[pinboy3niner]

100. Amnesty: Woman believed killed in Syrian custody

By BASSEM MROUE - Associated Press | AP – 4 mins 28 secs ago.


BEIRUT (AP) — An 18-year-old Syrian woman whose mutilated body was discovered in a morgue is believed to be the first female to die in custody during the country's 6-month-old uprising, Amnesty International said Friday.

The family of Zainab al-Hosni found her corpse by chance as they searched for her activist brother's body in the restive city of Homs, the New York-based rights group said. The family said she had been decapitated, her arms cut off, and skin removed.

"If it is confirmed that Zainab was in custody when she died, this would be one of the most disturbing cases of a death in detention we have seen so far," said Philip Luther, Amnesty's deputy director for the Middle East and North Africa.

Amnesty said Zainab was abducted by plainclothes individuals believed to be members of the security forces on July 27, apparently to pressure her activist brother Mohammad Deeb al-Hosni to turn himself in.

The deaths of Zainab and her brother bring to 103 the number of people who have been reported killed in Syrian custody since the uprising began in March, Amnesty said.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/amnesty-woman-believed-killed-syrian-custody-122200867.html

[joshcryer]

101. Week 31 part 5 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1990185