Can someone explain the appeal of "V" masks?

[brooklynite]

I've seen all the pictures of Wall Street protestors with these things on, and I honestly don't think it helps their case. First, they're wearing a mask that comes from a niche comic book that was made into an adventure movie, both of which appeal to a relatively limited age demographic. Second, the representation of the mask does nothing to help spread their message (assuming after five days that they've agreed on one. "V" in the comics is fighting against Government dictatorship and oppression. Nothing in the plot talks about economics or financial issues, and Guy Fawkes was challenging religious oppression and was advocating violence to do so. None of these themes seem to be appropriate today.

[Chan790]

1. It's an adopted symbol of Anonymous.

Anons played a big part in organizing and bringing together this protest.

[brooklynite]

5. And why is that good?

If we're opposed to anonymous donors contributing to Super PACs, we shouldn't be in support on anonymous protests, especially if the protest is non-violent, as promised on their website.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

11. I think anonymity in protest is OK.

Because the US government has become much more oppressive of its citizens (across the board) in the 21st century.

But I think the intent is symbolic. The US is an oppressive regime and the people need to resist it, as well as its corporate puppet-masters on Wall Street.

[brooklynite]

13. That's where I have to leave you...

...complain all you want about corporate influence, but the US Government is not an "oppressive regime". It is the Government we have chosen to address our needs, whether those choices were made responsibly or not. Hyperbole like this makes its even harder to convince people of the need for improvement.

[ret5hd]

30. that's pretty easy to say if you are a millionaire.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

37. The US is not oppressive?

Are you aware that the American government now claims a legal right to torture its own citizens without due process?

It has been oppressive throughout my lifetime (Cointelpro, etc.). But the disproportionate power of RW elites in the 21st centuryand media malipulation of the people is raising governmental/corporate power to new heights. The trend is very ominous, in my view.

As one example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISkqQ3hpW5E

[MADem]

44. Oh well, you know...

All that "Of the people, by the people, and for the people" stuff, notwithstanding!

I concur that improvement is needed, but we've got the tools to do it in our system of government--we just need to bend to the task.

[99th_Monkey]

55. Stolen elections (think 2000 Bush v. Gore) do not reflect citizen's "choices". please. ~nt

[Javaman]

56. You forgot to click your heals and salute. nt

[alarimer]

82. Well compared to, say, Iran it isn't.

But various arms of the government (including the NYPD who has been in cahoots with the CIA to spy on Muslims) have been engaging in oppressive tactics.

The American people are almost wholly ignorant of the evil things done in our name.

[NeedleCast]

20. Hehe, if you think the US is a oppressive regime I hope you never have to travel outside the country

[Admiral Loinpresser]

35. I have traveled abroad several times.

The US is certainly *not* one of the most oppressive regimes in its treatment of all of its citizens (at least not yet), although it has been extremely repressive historically regarding people of color. Outside US borders, I believe the US ranks pretty high in its oppression quotient. But the encroachment against civil liberties and the democratic process in the 21st century is a clear pattern, wouldn't you agree? For example, we didn't used to claim a legal right to torture people.

[Robb]

64. I'll bite:

We didn't used to claim a legal right to torture people, because we didn't have to. No one cared, so long as they didn't have to hear about it.

That governments find themselves doing legal gymnastics to attempt to justify their actions says to me the trend is toward more liberty, not less. How many Americans heard about Pforzheim in 1945? Was the government asked to legally justify bombing an entire town into dust?

[MADem]

67. +1 n/t

[Admiral Loinpresser]

85. I'll bite back.

Wiki says Pforzheim was mainly the RAF, but arguendo, let's say Uncle Sam was guilty of a war crime. We used to have the redeeming quality of being a liberal democracy that opposed war crimes. That's what My Lai was about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Pforzheim_in_World_War_II

I beg to draw a difference between the horrors and vagaries of a war fought against fascism and the illegal activities of the US government in engaging in torture, including its own citizens, and pretending it's OK under international law.

In WW II German soldiers wanted to surrender to American troops because they knew they would be tortured and/or killed by Soviet troops. We were in that sense, the good guys. Now we have gone over to the dark side. I don't think Afghans expect humane treatment if they surrender.

So your position is that now that the US regime claims that torture is legal and justified, we have more freedom? That doesn't seem quite right to me, somehow.

[Robb]

88. Mai Lai also fits with my (arguably un-fleshed-out) theory

... Specifically, an increased level of awareness on the part of the population, forcing the government to take increasingly significant measures to attempt to placate us. No one was ever even looked at sideways for ordering or participating in the bombings of Pforzheim or Dresden -- war crimes by any measure, with the benefit of hindsight. But there was a massive public outcry when Mai Lai became a household name. And the discussion in the public sphere on torture is unending and (nearly universally) condemning.

Warfare is no more atrocious today than it's ever been. I consider it to humanity's credit that the circle that contains "acceptable tactics in war" is increasingly smaller.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

91. Please advise me of these

"increasingly significant measures to attempt to placate us." I would love to be a knowing beneficiary. Last time I checked Obama was continuing the Bush 43 trend of decreased civil liberties and continuing the class warfare begun by Ronald Reagan in 1981. I believe the 21st century in America is celebrating the greatest reverse-Robin Hood transfer of wealth in world history. Please tell me how to get my placate on!

[Robb]

94. That's another topic, certainly.

But talking about torture and "war crimes," I maintain that a government that has to go so far as to attempt to legalize its own behavior in wartime is staring down the barrel (pardon the pun) of a real anti-war movement.

How many years after the end of WWII was the first book written critical of the bombing of Dresden? And how many months after Mai Lai? How many hours after "enhanced interrogation" entered the lexicon?

[Admiral Loinpresser]

96. A draft is the usual ingredient

for an anti-war movement of consequence. That's the only reason Obama is able to stay in Afghanistan: no draft. War crimes are almost inherent in modern warfare, because the level of civilian casualties in war is much higher than a century ago. So I don't think Obama has been held accountable for his escalation of the war, because of the lack of a draft.

Certainly in the information age criticism is organized more quickly, but not necessarily effectively. Blowback against the government in WW II wasn't significant because it was a popular war, whereas My Lai was a big deal because it occurred in an unpopular war with good investigative journalism. US torture has not stopped, with or without all the alleged placation. The only placation of which I'm aware is that campaigning Obama promises he will insist on a tax hike on the rich in exchange for selling us out on our social safety net. Whoopty-do. I hope Perry advocates doing away with Social Security, so Obama can be against it.

[JohnnyRingo]

27. ...and because a Mickey Mouse or Spiderman mask would make them appear silly.

Though on second thought, seeing an angry mass of grinning Mousketeers marching in protest with might be just a bit unsettling. hahaha

[surrealAmerican]

41. To people who are not fans ...

... those "V" masks are just as silly.


By the way, mouseketeers wore hats with ears, not masks.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

59. I prefer a protester with a mask

to a pirate with no mask in the Rose Garden.

[Marrah_G]

14. Annonymous is a group, albiet losely knit

I support anyone right to protest, in a mask or not. If 5 million people in V masked marched on Wall street or the capitol, perhaps it would instill a bit of the fear of the people that our leaders have been missing.

[brooklynite]

19. If 5 million people protested, they wouldn't need masks...

[Taverner]

78. Because you don't have Johnny showing up at your home...

With some truncheons and a one way ride...

[mike_c]

2. um, because they're Anonymous...?

Old symbols can be retasked, too! Oops, there's one in my avatar!

[LoZoccolo]

3. lurk moar n/t

[arcane1]

4. Viral marketing for Warner Bros?

:shrug:

[Bucky]

97. Thank you. And the marketing works because Americans are a bunch of whiners.

You know, except for our First Responder heroes... yada yada yada

[OnyxCollie]

6. Why are you so bothered by them?

Because they challenge the status quo?

Fear of change is not just for republicans anymore.

[brooklynite]

8. I'm not bothered....but I think they're a wasted effort

OCCUPYWALLST is failing because it doesn't have a clear message about what it's against and what it's for, nor does it have a clear mechanism to convey that message. I've walked by their campsite several times, and nobody's paying attention to them, except for the police and the odd reporter. If they're going to use iconography to help spread their message (whatever it is), it needs to be an icon that resonates with the audience.

[OnyxCollie]

10. I feel the same way about Obama 2012 campaign buttons. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

90. Mrawr!

[marions ghost]

21. You don't KNOW

what they're against?

That might be your basic problem. :shrug:

[Admiral Loinpresser]

25. I believe the reason they are being ignored by SCMSM

is because their message is not right wing and they are not militant. They aren't perceived as "real Americans" by corporate media unlike the kooks in the Tea Party. The same thing happened to the pre-invasion Iraq war protests, even though millions took to the streets in the US & Europe. Corporate media are anti-democratic.

They are just getting started. I believe this is the most important US protest since the early 70s. I'm going to try to help organize a solidarity march in my town.

I believe the theme should be that financial corpoarations which are too big to fail must be broken up by the "Justice" Department.

[LanternWaste]

83. I think it may be a wee bit more truthful if your statement read...

"it doesn't have a clear message about what it's against and what it's for..."

I think it may be a wee bit more truthful if your statement read "I don't have a clear message about...." A lack of information in the here and now is more often than not, our own fault.


"I've walked by their campsite several times, and nobody's paying attention to them..."
I imagine your anecdotal evidence will be given all the credit its due. :shrug:

[aikoaiko]

7. i give them the benefit of the doubt because they are there and I am not.

[WCGreen]

9. I think because they look cool and iconic...

[brooklynite]

15. Why not dress up like Moses?

And hold up signs advocating forgiveness of debt every seven years? Just as iconic, far more relevant, and you might get the religious right on your side.

You'd probably also find the police far less willing to seize banners with quotes from the Bible printed on them.

[NeedleCast]

22. Because Moses isn't a hipster

[patrick t. cakes]

32. whats a hipster?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

45. Here:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+is+a+Hipster

[patrick t. cakes]

106. I was hoping needle cast would explain

i know what a "hipster" is, or what people define them as.

I'm glad to see hipsters actually protesting, seems nobody else is. Maybe the rest of America will follow, and not form shallow opinions on clothing etc..c

Didn't the hippies get shit too for their weird appearance?

[MADem]

47. Most of them, at this stage in their lives, are looking at new hips! NT

[NeedleCast]

51. A 25 year old white suburbanite kid wearing a Che shirt

Who thinks Che was an awesome boxer in the 80s, or something, man.

[patrick t. cakes]

107. Not from my experience

[Bucky]

98. .

[Bucky]

99. and

[Bucky]

100. and

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

109. haha! n/t

[marions ghost]

31. Probably better to leave the religious symbols to the right

these days... :eyes:

Wouldn't your suggestions be basically dishonest? U R suggesting to use Christian iconography and texts to:

1. Pose as Christians (doubt that right wingers would fall for it)
2. Play confusa cat with the police (could rile them up more actually, if they realize the sham of it)

[greyl]

72. Moses wasn't a Christian. ;) nt

[MADem]

79. Don't tell the fundies that--they can't deal with the fact that JC lived/died a Jew, either!! NT

[marions ghost]

86. I know

but the point was made that biblical characters might work better in a protest demo...because they would appeal to Christians.

Personally I'm a bit tired of appealing to Christians...

[Admiral Loinpresser]

89. Nor was Jesus! n/t

n/t

[WCGreen]

58. The post asked what is so special about the mask...

I replied that with my thoughts on the mask...

I attended many protest in my life, always with my face front and center.

I don't condone the use of the mask, in fact I think people who wear the mask during a protest do a disservice to the cause as they appear to be petulant children.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

62. Do you support the point of their protest?

That to me is the real issue, not whether they are doing everything perfectly.

[WCGreen]

70. I do but I think they do a diservice to the cause...

[Admiral Loinpresser]

81. Perhaps,

but I think the main thing is just getting more and more bodies out there and starting to actually disrupt Wall Street activity (i.e. piracy). If they do that, maskless or not, I think they will be effective and garner more publicity.

Almost everybody hates WS now. It is the right focus for attack in my view.

[WCGreen]

102. The news media doesn't take them seriously because they are

dressed up like the WTO hoodlums and so they are, more than likely, painted with the same broad strokes.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

103. What's your theory for

why they largely ignored the massive protests against the invasion of Iraq?

[WCGreen]

104. For that it was because the media was supporting the war....

They know that people are riveted to the 24/7 cable shows when there is breaking news and with a war they have a tremendous built in sense of urgency.

Careers are made, reputations are enhanced in wartime

I also think that a whole lot of people wanted the war to happen and that those who wanted it drowned out those of us who wanted no part of war.

[LanternWaste]

84. What specifically leads you to believe they do a "disservice" to the cause?

What specifically leads you to believe they do a "disservice" to the cause? Any relevant information leading to that conclusion, or is merely a "hunch"?

[WCGreen]

101. It's not a hunch...

It's based on the fact they are not taken seriously...

[Marrah_G]

12. I give them all a great big thumbs up

[NeedleCast]

16. They're trendy

[bemildred]

17. It makes govenment surveillance of political protest more difficult. nt

[pmorlan1]

36. lol

You mean the government surveillance done by that non-oppressive regime mentioned earlier?

[EFerrari]

18. Its a great idea. It takes a commercial icon and turns it to use

for social justice, for once.

[librechik]

23. it's just another generation's heroes. They never heard of Abbie Hoffman

I'm just glad that they're there

[FarLeftFist]

24. Anonymity.

[Whisp]

26. It's a really good movie. :)

the general theme of which is:

people shouldn't be afraid of republicans, republicans should be afraid of the people.

[Fire Walk With Me]

28. Read the book. See the film.

[Xithras]

29. The underlying message of Guy Fawkes worship has a lot of fans.

"Sometimes the system can become so corrupt that the best solution is to tear the whole thing down and start over."

That's the theory, anyway.

[patrick t. cakes]

33. They're there to bother people like you

[sabrina 1]

34. I think you're in the minority on this.

Most people appreciate symbolism, and they associate the mask with Anonymous which is a worldwide group that has appeal to those who feel helpless against what is going on in their countries. They are sort of like Robin Hood. Maybe that's the symbol they should have used.

I think there is someone behind the group, personally and they deliberately chose this way of presenting themselves because it has appeal.

[Fire Walk With Me]

38. Can anyone explain the appeal of trashing the symbols of a struggling protest movement

instead of doing something supportive where it is truly needed?

The V/Guy Fawkes mask symbolizes that the power is and always has been in the hands of the people. That is a powerful symbol, a needed symbol.

[marions ghost]

39. exactly

:applause:

[MADem]

42. I don't think it works, either. It's not "trashing a movement" to say it's a crappy idea. NT

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. Please send pizza to the protesters. Support is needed please.

[MADem]

54. Naaah. Don't think so.

It's just not a focused protest. For that reason, it is not effective.

There are too many factions in there, and it looks like one of those pathetic marches on DC that ended up not making a damn bit of difference. Any time I see Code Pink playing it up, I tune out.

If they want to make change, they need to cease with the "We're cooler than you, this is a party for a crew of 'with it' kids between eighteen and twenty eight" attitude and get serious. They just aren't coming off as serious to me--and if they can't get by my smell-a-vision, they're not going to have much luck with Middle America.

Don't be shooting the messenger, now.

I'm not saying that some of the people there don't have admirable goals, but there's too much diffusion going on with the idiotic "street theater" bullshit. They aren't "making the sale."

[Fire Walk With Me]

63. Here is how to send food and to support them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1978221&mesg_id=1978554

Thank you for your support.

[MADem]

66. Again, sorry.

I just don't think they "hit the mark."

Good effort, lots of enthusiasm, but the presentation is poor and the message unfocused.

[Fire Walk With Me]

69. Well then, if you can't say or do anything nice....?

[MADem]

71. I think my constructive criticism hasn't been unkind or "not nice."

This is a discussion forum, you know; not a "Me too" cheerleading camp. We all have a right to our POVs, and that includes mine, as well as yours.

[Fire Walk With Me]

75. Certainly.

[JuniperLea]

93. So very true!

And uses as a symbol, it's not violent or destructive at all.

Imagine the level of Pubbie Pants Pooping that would happen if millions of people gathered today wearing that mask!

[MADem]

40. I am with you. You know what would scare the living shit out of "The Haves?"

If everyone in the protest was wearing a pressed suit, shirt and tie (or women's office equivalent) and a decent haircut and shined shoes.

If you look "fringe-y" that's how you are treated. If you look uber-mainstream and are pissed off in a large group, that's what is truly scary.

It's why the Civil Rights marches had such a profound effect. When the "silent majority" who had lost sons in Vietnam started marching in their chinos and feed caps, and flowered dresses with perms/hats, joining up with the long haired pothead hippies, that's when the tide started to really turn.

When you affect "costume" to garner attention, you certainly do get some--but it's often the wrong kind. It's easy to ignore someone who looks like a flake. It's way harder to ignore someone who looks like the person who works in your office two cubicles over--especially if there are a shitload of 'em.

[The2ndWheel]

50. Or if enough people stopped believing what the haves have is wealth

and stopped wanting some of it for themselves, that would do the trick as well. If you have something that nobody else wants, you have no control over them.

If most people didn't agree what the haves have is wealth though, there really wouldn't be much of an economy, or a state for that matter.

So for the economy to get better, the haves need to have what everyone else wants(or, again, they wouldn't be the haves, and everyone would do their own thing), and there just needs to be a way of getting it from the haves.

[brooklynite]

52. I agree...

...The Tea Party protestors in their tri-corner hats were good for a color story, but the impact of the Town Hall meetings came from people dressed like ordinary people.

[MADem]

60. And who doesn't know how to "relate" a tri-corner hat to our history?

We all studied that crap in grammar school. Not so many covered Guy Fawkes to any great extent (I got a good load of it, myself, but I was educated both here and abroad, so I don't count).


To short circuit any of the "You aren't cool, you sorry old geezer, and didn't see the film" stuff I might receive from contributors here, right out of the gate, I DID see the film when it first came out.

It was "OK." The acting wasn't bad and the girl with the bald head had good screen presence.

Iconic, though? Not. At least not to me. It was a fresh coat of paint on an old tale. Maybe young kids like it, and find it resonates, but to me, it was just "Ehhh." Good little adventure story; apropos to the Bush-y times in an allegorical sort of way, but nothing that might go down in history. IMO.

If the people at the protest aren't reaching and resonating with the drudges who still have jobs, the families with kids and busy lives with not enough money at the end of the month, the middle aged trying to hang on to their work and pensions, the retirees whose monthly stipends aren't keeping up with expenses, well, they're just having a little contrarian funfest that isn't having any real impact. They may believe, in their elite little minority, that they're "making a difference" but all they're doing is reinforcing their own POV amongst their own.

Again, I'm not saying they don't have a point to make; I'm simply saying that they are not getting their point across.

[Greybnk48]

43. To me they symbolize standing up to corruption and

the powerful, in this case Wall Street criminals. I love them!!

[Bonhomme Richard]

48. They are a statement. n/t

[lunatica]

49. I support their right to protest and I applaud them for doing it

[justiceischeap]

53. I think if you read the Wiki entry about the movie, it'll give you a better understanding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta_%28film%29

The film had been seen by many political groups as an allegory of oppression by government; libertarians and anarchists have used it to promote their beliefs. Activists belonging to the group Anonymous use the same Guy Fawkes mask popularized by the film when they appear in public at numerous high-profile events, emulating one of its key scenes.

{snip}

With the intention of modernizing the film, the filmmakers added topical references relevant to a modern 2006 audience. According to the Los Angeles Times, "With a wealth of new, real-life parallels to draw from in the areas of government surveillance, torture, fear mongering and media manipulation, not to mention corporate corruption and religious hypocrisy, you can't really blame the filmmakers for having a field day referencing current events." There are also references to an avian flu pandemic, as well as pervasive use of biometric identification and signal-intelligence gathering and analysis by the regime.<20>

It was also used heavily in the recent Egyptian revolution, so I'm guessing there are some parallels to be drawn there as well.

[dtexdem]

57. They make a better impression than Satan masks.

[EFerrari]

61. LOL

[MADem]

65. Unfortunately, to people who haven't seen the film, they're perceived as Musketeers.

It's just a lame, 'elitist' (in the sense of a group that is closed to a wider audience, not a group of those with great wealth or influence) symbol that causes confusion (and hence, disinterest) amongst the wider, unwashed ordinary people of this land.

[Recursion]

80. Actually, the "traditional" image of the devil with the pointy beard comes from... Guy Fawkes

Funny how that works...

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

73. What, precisely, are you saying? That anyone who doesn't think the whole

trajectory of the protest effort and the little masks are particularly effective is a troll? And a "douche bag fat-assed concern troll" to boot?

It's either "Cheerlead mindlessly ... or shut up?" Not terribly democratic, that.

Or am I misinterpreting your comment?

[Admiral Loinpresser]

77. Good one! n/t

n/t

[bvar22]

74. If you don't already know,

then you won't understand.

When The Working Class & The Poor realize that we have more in common with each other
than we have in common with the Rich Elite Class Leadership of BOTH Political Parties,
THEN we can have CHANGE





You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their Campaign Rhetoric.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[malaise]

76. What masks

I thought the protests couldn't last a full day

[eShirl]

87. Because Burger King masks were a little TOO creepy.

[JuniperLea]

92. It's a symbol of being fed up and ready for action...

Oppressed people can take only so much. I'm against violence and destruction too, but I can't blame people for responding to base, primal brain stem urges.

"Guy Fawkes was challenging religious oppression and was advocating violence to do so. None of these themes seem to be appropriate today." - Continued oppression of the masses is what is inappropriate... this is why I understand.

I need to watch the film again.

[Zax2me]

95. Well, the movie sucked. Tried to sit through it. Ugh.

But I think the mask is cool.

[Nevernose]

105. They started as Scientology protesters

In the current context, the Guy Fawkes masks were a way to disguise protesters of Scientology (which happened to first spread on Anonymous sites; their first enemy is and always will be Scientology).

It made sense, too: the Church of Scientology has a long history of pretty heinous behavior towards heretics, including kidnappings, murders, and bugging U.S. embassies. Pele wanted to protest what they thought was a harmful, worldwide sham, but they felt safer in masks.

[Brickbat]

108. I'm late to this party and totally agree.

Show your face, quit giving profits to movie companies, or go the fuck home.

[Modern_Matthew]

110. I don't question the methods of protest from the comfort of my laptop...

Where I am sitting...

And not protesting.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

111. Boom Shakka Lakka!

Less snark, more support.

[Spider Jerusalem]

112. Was Guy Fawkes "challenging religious oppression"?

Or championing its cause? It wasn't so very long before that bloody Mary Tudor was burning Protestants at the stake, remember. Counter-Reformation, very nasty business indeed. The Gunpowder Plot aimed to assassinate James I and put his daughter on the throne as Catholic monarch; I can't imagine that England returned to the bosom of Rome would have been all that much better for Protestants than it had been 50 years before.

[Chorophyll]

113. I'm with you. If people are scratching their heads at these masks,

which I'm sure they are, they're not effective.