Fox News: Mechanic suggests broken seat why pilot not visible in Reno air crash

[RamboLiberal]

Remember someone here suggesting. I'll wait for NTSB! Also focus on why tail wheel down. Interesting video at link.

A newly released photograph of the deadly Nevada air racing disaster suggests the pilot in the crash may have become dislodged in the cockpit as a result of a broken seat, an aviation mechanic tells Fox News.

Aviation mechanic J.R. Walker told Fox News that the pilot, Jimmy Leeward, would have been seen in the photo even if he had passed out and was slumped in his seat.

Walker, who has worked on similar planes, suggested in an interview that Leeward’s seat may have slipped back, causing him to lose control of the plane.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/20/photos-suggest-pilot-in-deadly-reno-air-crash-had-broken-seat-aviation-expert/#ixzz1Ybs17xAb

[Old and In the Way]

1. I thought that was strange as well.

Don't know if the broken seat was caused by sudden g-forces created by other factors, but I thought the trim tab failure couldn't have been the sole cause of the crash. A busted seat would probably mean loss of control on the rubber pedals. Must have been a horrible few seconds for this poor guy. :-(

[RamboLiberal]

3. I don't know if possible seat back flipped back when loss of tab

Threw plane up. I'd bet he had as light a weight seat as possible in cockpit.

[Fuddnik]

16. Also, if the seat breaks, you have your hand on the stick.

You slide back, and pull the stick back with you. It was obviously pulled back, as evidenced by the planes short, quick climb before the rollover and nose dive.

I didn't think a trim tab loss would cause that much of a reaction either, because you have the elevator control with the stick anyway. Why the tail wheel is down, I have no idea.

Cessna had a problem with their seats latching mechanism for years, and they sometimes slid back during takeoff, and causing crashes. They refused to redesign it for years, and after many lawsuits, they were one of several companies that wanted to limit product liability over time, even though they knew a problem existed, and refused to correct it.

Me and several other pilots who flew Cessna's had a way to deal with the problem. We cut a couple of 2x4's to our personal length, and jammed them between the lower part of the front and back seats, so they couldn't go any further back.

[RamboLiberal]

22. Tail wheel because maybe he grabbed gear lever

Trying to pull himself upright? We need our aviation DU'ers to chime in.

[Warpy]

2. They're going to have to rely on a lot of photos this time

since there was so little left of the plane after the crash.

[RamboLiberal]

5. Plane did have some real time telemetry back to mechanics

And onboard cameras. Found SD cards in wreckage. Wonder if any pointed back to cockpit?

[FarLeftFist]

4. The wheel down was probably a warning sign for the public below that something was wrong.

[RamboLiberal]

6. I seriously doubt that - no time

Wonder where gear lever was and if he grabbed for leverage if seat broke? Hope our aviation DU'ers check in.

[FarLeftFist]

12. No time to put the wheel down? But they're down.

[RamboLiberal]

14. I meant as means to signal crowd

My theory is he may have grabbed lever for leverage or even as attempt to stabilize or even thought of emergency landing.

[Old and In the Way]

23. Doubt he'd have had time to signal the crowd...and I doubt the crowd would have understood such a s

I do think that your idea of grabbing for something like a tail wheel lever is totally conceivable, though. If the seat broke, he'd be reaching out for anything in the cockpit to pull himself back into a position where he could take some active control of the aircraft.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. The exact same thing happened to me with my old Ford Escort.

My seat adjuster snapped and suddenly I couldn't reach the pedals.

Fortunately, I was doing 45 at the time, not 180.

[warrior1]

8. Check the photo out in the link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1967810


The helmet shows the pilot was forward not backward.

[RamboLiberal]

9. Maybe - hard to tell - really needs enhanced

[Fumesucker]

10. I did that the other day..

Here it is..

[RamboLiberal]

13. Still could be a broken seat if it flopped forward on inversion

Or he raised for a moment - maybe when grabbing the landing gear lever. Noticed tail wheel still seems to be stowed in above photo.

From a blog:

At that speed, the stress on the elevator assembly due to the violent stick pull-back would have been extreme, possibly breaking off the trim tab. There would probably be no way Leeward could sit back up and regain control. He may have been able to raise his head for a moment which one photo seems to show.

http://www.livinglakecountry.com/blogs/communityblogs/130253333.html

[leveymg]

15. I don't really trust enhanced images - nothing personal - but the original image of the rounded

or oblong object in the front of the cockpit was not nearly so helmet-like. There is a cowling over the instrument panel, and that could also be it. It's not certain.

If it is the helmet - the shoulder harness or mounts failed, which would be very surprising to me in such a well-built aircraft.

[Fumesucker]

18. All I did is enlarge the image and adjust the brightness curve..

..In order to show more detail that was already there in the dark areas, nothing added or taken away, you could do the same thing in a darkroom with paper and chemicals it would just take a lot longer and cost more.

I'd have to know what the pilot's helmet looked like in the first place to make a determination as to what's what in the cockpit, I've seen a few pics of the cockpit I think and it certainly didn't look like there was anywhere for the seat to go.

ETA: If you've ever seen the movie Blowup it shows exactly what I'm talking about..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowup

[leveymg]

19. Given the laws of physics, I think we've solved the mystery of where the pilot

went. From the position of the head, if that's what it is, the pilot appears to have smashed forward into the instrument panel. That would force the stick forward.

But, here's a problem - as the plane was inverted when the photo was taken, that would push the aircraft up, but what actually occurred was the plane instead went straight down into an inverted loop.

In any case, there's no question in my mind that the restraints or mounts failed in some way, allowing the body to move so far forward.

[RamboLiberal]

11. Theory broken seat landing gear from this blog

Photos sent to me by an email correspondent strongly suggest another possible--I would say probable--explanation for the crash. If Leeward's seat had failed during a high-G maneuver such that the backrest broke at the bottom where it meets the seat and fell backwards with him tightly strapped in, his hand being on the stick would have pulled it violently back causing the aircraft to pull up with tremendous force. He would now be in a prone position, unable to reach the joystick controls.

At that speed, the stress on the elevator assembly due to the violent stick pull-back would have been extreme, possibly breaking off the trim tab. There would probably be no way Leeward could sit back up and regain control. He may have been able to raise his head for a moment which one photo seems to show.

This scenario is supported by the fact that one of the photos shows the Ghost in her final dive with no-one visible in the cockpit.
(There is another photo which seems to show a broken seat flying through air at impact.)

The tail wheel extension might be due to Leeward grabbing at anything in the cockpit in an attempt to pull himself back up. The landing gear lever in the P-51 is fairly large, looks like an emergency brake lever and is just to the left of the seat. That might have been the only thing he could grab from a reclining position. As I understand the WW II Army flight manual for the P-51, the gear lever is supposed to lower both the main landing gear and the tailwheel, but aerodynamic forces at that speed may not have allowed the main gear doors to open.

http://www.livinglakecountry.com/blogs/communityblogs/130253333.html

[Fuddnik]

17. Makes sense to me.

[titaniumsalute]

20. While this post certainly sounds plausible

It is way too early to tell what happened. I posted in GD a few days back about the various things that could have happened. A trim tab falling off at extreme high speeds could have caused the nose to jerk up and the seat to break due to extreme G-forces. A seat breaking and the force the pilot falling back could have pulled the nose up with extreme forces, etc.

Not sure about the landing gear but like someone said the pilot may have been fishing for something to grab to try to get erect in the cockpit.

We can all speculate but it will take some serious crash investigators to come up with the best scenario. Very sad any way we look at it though.

[RamboLiberal]

21. That makes sense about the landing gear that he grabbed

If he had blacked out how did that rear wheel deploy?

[warrior1]

24. Not sure if these video has been posted

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/09/shocking_2.php?ref=fpblg

very horrific.

warning....