Legalize drugs. Yeah, you heard me, ALL OF THEM

[Taverner]

"But - what about Meth/Heroin/PCP/Boogeydrug of Choice?????"

OK - let's play a thought experiment. Let's say Crystal Meth is legalized. Completely. How long do you think the clandestine meth labs will stay open, with their toxic chemicals and watered down product? When a user could walk down to CVS, and get Desoxyn (trade name for methamphetamine) over the counter? With users and addicts able to get the real stuff, without cuts or adulterants, why would they want to buy from the Zetas?

The drug gangs and meth labs would be out of business in minutes.

Same goes for Heroin - and it would reduce the chances of overdose, since when a user used 10mg, it really would be 10mg, and they would know their dose.

Of course, this means Law Enforcement doesn't get to fill up their prisons with non-violent offenders, something they are scrambling to do more and more every year.

This would mean the courts wouldn't be packed, cops wouldn't be given carte blanche to stop anyone for "suspicion."

"But - what about that crazy drug user who goes nuts and kills a bunch of people?"

What about him? Most of you don't want to make religion illegal because of 9/11. And I can guarantee you, the heroin user - he's not doing anything. Literally. He or she doesn't even want to eat, let alone kill.

[FarLeftFist]

1. I would love to see the advertising campaigns for drugs.

Looking to act like a crazy person 2-3 weeks at a time without having the inconvenience of sleep? Try Meth! Now on sale!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

68. The actor playing the meth user will be alert, good-looking

Check out an advertisement for liquor. Do they show people puking on their shoes and forgetting to unzip before taking a leak? No, they are beautiful people. Same as the meth user/ heroin user/ etc.

Wait, do they still have liquor ads? I haven't noticed.

Anyway, I want to see the marijuana ads done by the Budweiser frogs.

:hi:

[Taverner]

71. Or it would be a 'before' and 'after' woman

Just like Hydroxycut and Xenadrine did before Ephedra was banned

Seriously - I can't believe the FDA banned a plant in our lifetime!

[Occulus]

101. Or smiling, happy kids.

Methamphetamine has been FDA approved for the treatment of ADHD and exogenous obesity in children and adults under the trademark name Desoxyn. It's also apparently used for treatment of narcolepsy and treatment-resistant depression.

That, from the Wiki on Desoxyn, which redirects to the page about methamphetamine.

So, what we actually have here is a normally reviled and despised Schedule I drug that actually can kill immediately if the dose is too high, a substance we regularly imprison people for possessing, being legally used (under a trade name, even) for the treatment of medical conditions in children.

Isn't that interesting?

[lark]

121. They won't show the real speeds freaks.

Meth addicts have to wear long sleeved shirts because their arms are a mass of sores, they have horrible teeth (if they have any at all), their skin is a disaster and their hair and eyes are dull and lifeless. They definitely do not make a pretty picture.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

153. How much of that damage is due to meth

and how much is due to the messed up chemical soup from some skunkworks lab?

Of course, the ads will only show beautiful people, that's what ads do.

Legalizing all drugs would be a dangerous experiment. My feeling (and that's not worth much) is that it's less dangerous overall than the current drug war.

But I don't think we'll find out anytime soon.

:hi:

[kestrel91316]

107. Advertising for legal recreational drugs should be handled like advertising for

tobacco and hard liquor - highly regulated and limited. Perhaps prohibited altogether. We The People can decide to do that, you know. We have the right.

[liberal N proud]

2. I think the solution is to tax them

Illegal Drug Sales in Nation Put at $40 Billion
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/20/us/illegal-drug-sales-in-nation-put-at-40-billion.html


Put a tax on that to help pay for health-care for all. Imagine what that would do for the economy!

[Hepburn]

3. I totally agree and...

...legalize prostitution as well.

[hifiguy]

4. I agree completely.

Always have. That's one issue on which I am an unbudgeable and absolutist libertarian. Adults should be able to smoke/snort/ingest whatever the hell they want so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. Period.

[mdmc]

5. k/r

clozeril and suboxone are legal.. everything should be..

[FarLeftFist]

6. It's not what they do to people that keeps them illegal, it's what people do to others while on them

Legalizing drugs like meth, heroin, etc. is advocating for violence, rape, abuse, armed robbery, and the decimation of families.

Edit: Also, legalizing heroin is one way to be sure to fund terrorism. Lets legalize marijuana instead.

[Taverner]

7. One could make the same argument for religion...

I seem to remember couple thousand people killed by some folks all hopped up on religion...

Drugs don't MAKE you do anything

People just use it as an excuse, because otherwise they'd have to admit they were immoral fucks

[FarLeftFist]

10. I will help you make that argument for religion, but drugs definitely DO make you do things.

[RadiationTherapy]

12. What do "drugs" "make" you do?

[Taverner]

13. Drugs don't make anyone do anything

If they killed somebody while high on meth, they would have killed them stone cold sober

And last I checked, murder, for example, is still illegal

Book 'em Dan O!

As for Religion, I am not a big fan of it, but I don't think religion makes anyone do anything either

In both cases, the person convinces themselves to do something - not the drug or religion

[FarLeftFist]

23. Tell it to this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lurch

Antron Singleton (born September 15, 1976), better known by his stage name Big Lurch, is an American rapper. He is serving a life sentence for murdering 21-year-old female roommate Tynisha Ysais and eating parts of her body while under the influence of PCP in April 2002.

The victim was found in her apartment by a friend. Her chest had been torn open and a three-inch blade was found broken off in her shoulder blade. Tooth marks were found on her face and on her lungs, which had been torn from her chest. An eyewitness reported that, when Singleton was picked up by police, he was naked, covered in blood, standing in the middle of the street and screaming at the sky. A medical examination performed shortly after his capture found human flesh in his stomach that was not his own.

He claims to this day that he has no recollection of committing the crime and had no motive to do so.

[Taverner]

29. "He claims to this day that he has no recollection of committing the crime"

I'd try to forget something like that too...

But no, PCP didn't make him eat her. The devil didn't either. He's just a sick fuck.

[FarLeftFist]

37. Besides the cannibalism, the drugs made him stand naked and bloody screaming at the sky

I'd rather not have to raise my kids in an environment where thats the norm.

[Taverner]

41. That's not the norm and you know it

Everyone is not going to start using PCP just because its legal.

And of the hundreds of people I know who have done PCP, not just once but regularly, they NEVER had the sudden urge to eat their roommate.

[Abq_Sarah]

149. And the Devil sure as hell

Didn't make him take PCP in the first place.

[reggie the dog]

47. why didnt pcp make me kill anyone then?

[FarLeftFist]

49. Don't know. But he admits to having used it for about a decade.

Maybe eventually it would.

[Taverner]

52. Or maybe - just maybe - he was mentally ill

Jeffrey Dahmer didn't need PCP, nor did Issei Sagawa

[FarLeftFist]

54. Maybe the decades of drug abuse made his normal brain mentally ill.

I'm for the legalization of some drugs, but not most.

[reggie the dog]

maybe i am just not a murderer

[Taverner]

70. Maybe MOST people aren't depraved sinners, waiting to kill, rape or steal

Maybe most people agree with the precepts of the Social Contract

[FedUpWithIt All]

124. Probably because you had people around you, with more sense, who worked hard

to make sure you didn't hurt yourself or others.

My mom, who, now that she is sober, is generally regarded as a sweet and gentle Mrs. Clause type of character, never killed anyone because her children...often me, would stand between her and the person she was attempting to brain with a brick. We became adept at limiting her exposure to events which might "set her off", learned to do unusual tasks like stuffing cotton into and cleaning the knife wound she inflicted on the boyfriend who pissed her off.

Most people who have a history of heavy drug use typically have a co-dependent network picking up pieces. A fact that the users themselves are usually not in a mental position to even notice.

[Enthusiast]

89. The cost of illegal drugs makes the addict do things.

Damn. You really have no understanding of drugs. One gets the impression that they are talking with a Republican.

[lark]

125. Drugs make people rape others?

I hung around with a number of people in the heavy drug community when I was younger, and the only person I ever heard of "forcing" anyone was a pot dealer. Meth and H freaks were way too strung out to be involved with much of anything except getting high. Never once saw or heard in any violence from them. Thank God I had such bad veins I never participated with the hard stuff.

[LanternWaste]

28. Just like alcohol is merely an excuse for poor driving...

"Drugs don't MAKE you do anything. People just use it as an excuse..."

Just like alcohol is merely an excuse for poor driving...

[Taverner]

31. Apples and oranges

The drunken driver isn't exactly trying to mow down kids and old ladies. But his Central Nervous System is impaired, and does not respond as quick as a sober person's.

No doubt a meth user's CNS is impaired too - and he shouldn't drive - but there is no evidence to suggest that the drug fundamentally alters his psychology to make him do something he would never think of.

[LanternWaste]

40. Precisely. Alcohol never makes us do anything we wouldn't otherwise do.

Precisely. Alcohol never makes us do anything we wouldn't otherwise do.

[reggie the dog]

58. alcohol disinhibits and leads to poor decision making, it is the nature of the drug alcohol

people do alcohol just so they can feel comfortable doing shit outside of their comfort zone.

people do meth to be extra alert and awake

people do crack to have a kick ass rush, to be alert and awake

people do cocaine to have a rush, be alert, and awake

people do lsd to trip out and have hallucinations

people do shrooms, dmt, pcp, and mescaline for the same reasons but to do slighly different trips

people do mda to have a sense of happiness and giddieness and disinhibition without poor decision making of alcohol

people do mdma to have a sense of happiness, giddiness, disinhibition without poor decision making, euporia and a mad rush of empathy (ecstacy)

people do heroin to feel as if everything around them is a distant ship, something far away, to get a killer rush, and to feel a wave of warm happiness flow over thme sort of like an orgasm

people do opium for the same reasons minus the rush

people smoke pot to kind of unwind and relax (pot sort of makes you feel like u just had a massage or are in afterglow from sex)

people do ketamine to have out of body experiences

do not simply think that all drugs do the same things

drugs do things to our brain, different flavors for different folks, but the poor decision making process that you see with alcohol is far worse than it is for nearly all illegal drugs. if prices were lower do to legalization and people didnt have to wander the streets to find their next fix, if they could go down to cvs and have enough to fix for the day for five dollars, the hardcore addicts would actually be less likely to rob, be healthier and more likely be able to hold down a job

[amyrose2712]

139. Enticing....

:evilgrin:

[jmowreader]

78. There's plenty of evidence that meth alters the brain itself

[reggie the dog]

84. as does prolongued alcohol use

abusing drugs can have negative health effects for the user, now using drugs without abusing on the other hand often has little or no negative effects on health

[quakerboy]

144. Yes it does.

So how do you deal with abuse, whether it be of legal or illegal substances? We certainty do not seem to have a good system in place as things are now, for either?

[jmowreader]

157. We're talking about meth, right?

Meth is a drug so bad they should make a Robocop movie about it. Meth screws you up the first time you use it. Alcohol takes a while to destroy you, and in a lot of cases it never does.

Go to erowid.org, which is not a pro-drug-war site, and look up Meth. Even Erowid, which is very much pro-soft-drugs, is anti-meth.

[duhneece]

122. As does nicotine

Actually, everything we do alters our brains, which are very 'plastic' in the sense that they adapt, respond to what we eat, drink, or imbibe.

[BrendaBrick]

128. The Montana Meth Project/Diane Sawyer last night:

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/popup?id=1773914

Though I can't say for sure if it were pure and legalized that it would have the same effect? Tough call.

[FedUpWithIt All]

112. Were you raised by addicts?

Were you the child of people who "did things" while under the influence of these substances? Did you see the difference between these same people "altered" and unaltered?

Some of us have and most of us who have are VERY opposed to drug legalization.

[EC]

20. Huh?

The violence comes from trying to obtain them illegally. via the higher cost and lack of availability. If legal, those problems no longer exist. When something is made illegal, it just creates a black-market which is what leads to the violence.

[Taverner]

24. And most of those "crazy guy on drugs kills a family" stories are urban myths

It used to be PCP. Guy on PCP goes crazy and starts killing people. Cops shoot him full of holes, but like the boogeyman, he keeps coming.

Now it's Meth. I'll bet in the 50s, the same story was applied to Marijuana.

[EC]

33. Does anyone still do PCP?

Why would anyone do any of those idiot drugs if there is a less harmful, cheap alternative?

I've seen more of those cases as you discribe about alcohol. Those people were just as crazy sober, so just because they were on whatever drug...it's just an excuse.

[reggie the dog]

42. i have done pcp several times

not something i would do again but i just got "stuck", like glued to the chair fucking stoned with weird hearing and sight, seeing and hearing shit not there

[EC]

55. I remember once back in the 70's

was told it was something else (don't remember what) but ended up asking to be taken home and immediately going to bed because of the same you experienced. Didn't make me go crazy and hurt anyone though, maybe because it's NOT IN MY NATURE?

[Taverner]

45. Back in the 80s, before X and Ketamine, PCP was big

Since then the market provided healthier alternatives. And yes, X and Ketamine are WAY healthier than PCP.

[jmowreader]

79. That goes without saying...

Most things are healthier than PCP, including drinking Agent Orange.

[Taverner]

80. PCP is a crude animal tranquilizer

There have been innovations in both recreational, and animal drugs

[Occulus]

97. It was.

It was called, I believe, 'Marihuana Rage', and it happened when the drug was being made illegal- before the '50s.

[amyrose2712]

141. Been there done that, remember Refer Madness ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1jB7RBGVGk

Here is the original....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6MGVpl5ux8&feature=related

[FarLeftFist]

27. No one has ever caused violence while ON drugs?! Thats news to me.

[EC]

36. Where did I say that? ... n/t

[FarLeftFist]

43. You stated the violence only comes from trying to obtain the drugs.

PLENTY of people have been victims of violence while the drugs have already been obtained.

[EC]

51. Not the same.

But okay, many people will get drunk and be violent...then they say it is because they were drunk that they did it...I was married to a guy like that...he was just as violent when not drunk, it wasn't the alcohol that made him violent...it was just him, using an excuse to make himself feel like a good guy that was "just drunk".

I see it the same with the drugs.

The person themselve is usually sick to begin with, it's them, not the drug.

[Webster Green]

22. That's absurd.

Most of the violence associated with drug use is due to the fact that they are illegal.

Heroin doesn't make you violent. It makes you relax. Really relax.

Meth doesn't make you violent. It makes you clean your house all night and put labels on everything.

[FarLeftFist]

30. False. Meth can keep you awake for weeks at a time causing delusional psychosis.

And heroin funds terrorism.

[Taverner]

38. "And heroin funds terrorism" Wrong. The Black Market for Heroin funds terrorism.

If it were made by, I dunno, Bayer...




I don't think it's funding terrorism

That's a bad argument anyway - "terrorism" is a boogeyman in itself.

I am convinced there are no "terrorists" - terrorism is a tactic, not an ethos

[FarLeftFist]

53. But how could we educate our kids about the REAL dangers of these drugs if they're legal?

The side-effects are real. But with them being legal it's almost giving them a go ahead. Heroin is not alcohol and the effects are different, I know functional alcoholics, not so many functional heroin addicts.

[Taverner]

56. We educate our children about alcohol and tobacco pretty well

Here in California, cigarettes are 100% legal. Almost nobody here smokes, and the ones who do are usually 40+.

I chalk that up to an EXCELLENT smoking prevention program that has been going on since the early 70s.

If we're talking teen rebellion, driving the family car at 120mph is much more popular than smoking.

[reggie the dog]

63. california to france is day to night

here in france the percentage of teens 20 and 30 somethings who smoke is just over half.... i am in the minority on that one, and when they smoke weed or hash they always mix tobacco with it, even people who claim they dont smoke tobacco roll joints that are 80% tobacco, they cough and cannot hang smoking my durban poison pure....

[quakerboy]

147. Your "facts" are not true

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/state_data/state_highlights/2010/states/california/index.htm

According to the CDC, 6.99% of California teens have smoked in the last month. Do you really believe that more than 1 in 14 teens has gone 120 MPH in the last month?

A lot adults people smoke, about 14% in California. That would be 1 in 7. Of those people the group most likely to smoke are the 18-24 y/o, at 16.8%, and the 40+ crowd are less likely to smoke, with the 65+ at only 6.5%.

Likewise I would vehemently disagree with the assessment that we are well educating your youth about alcohol and tobacco. California is better than average, apparently, but as a nation, 1 in 10 kids is smoking, and just under 1 in 6 adults.

[reggie the dog]

62. i know at least 2 functional heroin addicts

one deals and bartends and never has to worry about making the scene to cop before jonesing,

the other works and does skag after work but joneses sometimes and needs to be driven to go cop...


price and having to make the scene combined with workplace drug testing make it harder to be a functional illegal drug addict than it is to be a functional alcoholic who can have their fix for 5 dollars a day and can fix themselves up at the grocery store.

[Webster Green]

69. There are plenty of them.

Your main problem here is that you don't know what you are talking about.

[loyalsister]

83. For this very reason, I think we need to rethink the idea of intoxication

There are kids killing themselves trying to get a head rush by cutting off oxygen. The choking game is popular among kids who dare not experiment with alcohol or drugs.
IMO if we were to legalize and regulate substances commonly used for intoxicating effects, we might see some positive changes. If a person's high of choice were available with some health oversight, they could have access to stimulants, opiates, etc that have been are produced under qualified standards to ensure safety. Illegal drug traders would lose business and the violence and crime related to the business of drug trade would at least be reduced.
Drug addiction and the damage that goes with it would persist. But, it would be possible for people to live their lives with normal function if they are paying reasonable amounts of money for the drugs and are able to maintain controlled addictions.
I think there is a way to be responsible about to experimentation with intoxication if we would acknowledge the universality of the impulse. People consume gallons of alcohol without admitting the intent to get drunk. Viewing it as an experience to explore with caution might give us a chance to address the negative effects more effectively.

[_ed_]

96. It's not society's job to educate your children

That is your job.

[RaleighNCDUer]

118. The same way we teach them about the REAL dangers of alcohol.

By telling them exactly what it does, what the effects of overdosing are, and explaining that use of a drug does not excuse bad behavior any more than being drunk excuses bad behavior.

And before it was made illegal there were MANY fuctional heroin users. As for addiction, it is easier to quit heroin than it is to quit alcohol or, particularly difficult, cigarettes.

[Webster Green]

44. More harm is done by keeping the substances illegal.

Harm reduction is achieved by taking the black market out of the equation. I would prefer to just grow my own poppies anyway. That would not be funding terrorism.

Buying Mexican pot is funding drug gangs. Do you understand that legalization would eliminate that?

[lark]

126. That's rather exaggerated

It only keeps you awake for weeks at a time if you are doing itoften during that week. I did have a boyfriend that I met after he'd cleaned up his act who told me he and a buddy had a bout with psychosis after heavily doing "crystal" for a couple of weeks. They climbed a big tree to get away from the aliens and stayed there all day. Of course, this brought them down since they weren't renewing the high, and they realized they needed to slow way down.

Not saying "some" shithead on drugs couldn't hurt someone, but really think they'd have to be hurtful people in the first place and drugs just gave them an excuse. That's strongly been my experience.

[naaman fletcher]

137. "heroin funds terrorism"

because it is illegal. Terrorists, already operating outside of the law, get involved with illegal businesses to make money.

[Atypical Liberal]

34. No one is saying make those things legal.

Legalizing drugs like meth, heroin, etc. is advocating for violence, rape, abuse, armed robbery, and the decimation of families.

No, it isn't. Saying it's OK for you to use drugs is not saying it's OK for you to commit crimes while on drugs.

This is the same argument people try to use to restrict firearms. "Nobody should be able to have firearms because some people commit crimes with them!"

Hogwash.

Your body is your body. The ultimate freedom is what you choose to do to your body. Just because you have that freedom does not mean that you have the freedom to do things to other people's bodies.

[Taverner]

39. Yep. What you said.

[reggie the dog]

35. people rape, drugs do not make you rape

i have smoked crack, freebased, done speed, opium, mdma, lsd, shrooms, pcp, weed, alcohol, tobacco, and downers and have never
raped, abused, done armed robbery or decimated my family.

Heroin funds who now? Terrorists? cia? mi6??? legalize production and the usa could grow poppies and make heroin, we get moriphine like that already here in france and could produce heroin no problem. domestic poppies and domestic heroin would cut down or nearly eliminate black market heroin and the funding of countries like afghanistan.

if legalized the price would go down so addicts would be less likely to rob because they could ward off a jones with far less money, begging would likely cover the habit at that point. drugs are expensive because they are illegal. in places where weed is endemic and tolerated you get pot for less that 50 CENTS a gram.

[Taverner]

48. And, if legalized, Big Pharma would step in and make a killing

no pun intended

[reggie the dog]

59. do like in switzerland and the netherlands

make heroin available for addicts in medical grade with purity and dose lableing, make it free paid by national health coverage, make the heroin from domestic grown poppies and sell it for no profit.

[markpkessinger]

61. On that basis, alcohol should be illegal, too n/t

[Sirveri]

85. violence, rape, abuse, armed robbery are all illegal. So what's your point?

Also, *cite needed*.

My guess is that those things relate more to POVERTY than to anything else.

[Enthusiast]

88. Decimation of families? Armed robbery?

Don't know much about the consequences of addiction to illegal drugs do you?

[Threedifferentones]

91. Illegal heroine funds terrorism just fine?

Your logic isn't logical...

[LiberalLoner]

115. Yup. I think we should work on WHY as a society we are turning to addictive substances.

[BrendaBrick]

127. "I think we should work on WHY as a society we are turning to addictive substances...EXACTLY!!!!!nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. We have from the dawn of time

actually.

We have used, as a species, all kinds of happy drugs and intoxicants starting at least 50K years ago... yes shrooms have been found in... ancient lithic period graves.

[LuckyLib]

116. With that line of reasoning, alcohol should be illegal.

[BadDog40]

132. You mean like alcohol

The worst drug on the planet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. Hmm should I point to the other LEGAL drug

that leads to the same crap?

This argument don't mostly wash. Yes SOME addicts will do that.. but not because of the choice of drugs...

[PDJane]

8. I agree.

Set up safe injection sites, too. Saves a lot of disease floating around.

I am of the opinion that addiction is not a moral weakness, but a genetic one. Treat it with education and harm reduction, and life gets easier.

[Taverner]

9. And have an OTC market for folks who want to quit

For example, step-down meds like suboxone, kratom or tramadol for those wishing to quit opiates

[BrendaBrick]

133. Agreed.

[RZM]

11. I support that, but I disagree that it's a panacea

Nonetheless, I agree with legalizing everything. But your last line in particular is dead wrong.

Heroin will still ruin your life even if it is legal. It will still take everything you own and you will still be forced to go out on the streets and do whatever it takes (including rob, steal, cheat, and sell your body) to get more heroin. That's especially true if you are poor and don't have resources to begin with.

I think it's a misconception that our prisons are 'filled with non-violent drug offenders.' What they are filled with are poor people who are enmeshed in the drug culture. Some are there just for possession. Some are in there for dealing. Some are in because they robbed somebody to pay for their habit. Some are in because they got into violent altercations because dealing drugs is a rough business. And some are in for acts they committed because they lose control when on benders. Often, one or more of these circumstances are in play simultaneously (not to mention the dozens of others I didn't think of). Legalizing everything will tamp down on some of those things, but only some.

Like I said, I agree with legalization, I just think that it's wrong to portray that as a cure for all of society's ills vis-a-vis addictive substances. After all, alcohol is legal and look how many people are in jail because of causes related to that.

[Taverner]

14. Not a panacea, but simple harm reduction

And I'd be willing to bet drug use will go up for about 10 years

ODs will go down tho, and if drug cessation products are available, the number of people quitting drugs will go down too


ON EDIT: Regarding Heroin, yes it can destroy your life. So can many things. But it won't destroy every heroin users life, and it won't be the big boogeydrug society has convinced us it is. Heroin and Morphine used to be OTC. Opium and Laudanum too. In fact, there was a time laudanum was cheaper to buy than liquor, and the poorer folks in the White Chapel District of London really took a liking to it.

But if Heroin is legal, OTC drugs to step down off of it (Fentanyl Patches, Codeine, Suboxone, etc) will make it easier for folks to quit.

[RZM]

17. Like I said, I'm fine with it

But I don't think it's realistic at the moment. What we need first are focused efforts on what is achievable. Right now I think that front is weed and the battles are medical marijuana and decriminalization of small amounts. I think energy needs to be focused on those specific issues. When we can show clear gains on those, then the scope of the reform movement can widen.

[Taverner]

21. Well, yeah...

You know, we could use a five-year-plan in this country!

[RZM]

25. We probably do. But I'd go with a different choice of words to describe it n/t

[Taverner]

32. How about "Great Leap Forward?"

[RZM]

50. Or 'Stimulants Package?'

[reggie the dog]

66. a 100 dollar a day habit will likely go down to 5 to 10 dollars a day

a 10 dollar bag of heroin (for sake of easy math say 1 gram) only contains about 20% heroin. just taking out the cut and imagine that 2 dime bags only had a total of 0.4 grams of heroin, legalized the 0.4 grams of heroin will cost about one tenth as much if the "risk factor profit" is taken out, so instead of paying 20 dollars for 0.4 grams of heroin the person will pay 2 dollars, so for 10 dollars a day they could have as much legal heroin as they had in 100 dollars of illegal heroin cut with who knows what, ten dimes will keep a hardcore addict happy, this could easily be paid for by nhs

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

15. Kicking Darwin into high gear... I love it.

We can empty the prisons of people held on drug charges...
and then overflow th eprisons with shitbags who can't control themselves while high.

Sort of a social a social and prison cleansing.

[Taverner]

19. People who can't control themselves while high usually can't control themselves when sober

[EC]

16. I believe it was said best by the nut Ron Paul

it's not like everyone is suddenly going to start doing drugs, when they didn't before. And you're right too. If you can get a drug that does no harm (pot) then why bother with the others? And maybe education about the drugs would get better, when there is no reason to lie about them anymore.

[jmowreader]

158. People would bother with the others...

because they like the effect the others have.

Look at our LEGAL drugs. People choose to drink absinthe rather than beer because they like the effect absinthe has on them. They choose to smoke perique tobacco rather than burley because they like the effect. The same thing holds true with amphetamines, say, versus benzos.

[LadyHawkAZ]

18. Why not? It worked for Portugal.

although there's been a giant hush around Portugal's good results in the U.S. media.

[amyrose2712]

143. +1nt

[FedUpWithIt All]

150. Portugal decriminalized, they did not legalize. There is a huge difference. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

26. Legalize pot first, and see what happens.

If that goes well it could be expanded.

[sixmile]

46. Only if it's ALL FREE

Cash flow will guarantee illegal trade - the exact opposite of the argument for the legalization.

[Silent3]

57. I'm good with that n/t

[War Horse]

60. Recced for good points

I have my reservations, although I'm very much pro the legalization of cannabis, but kudos for making me think.

"Users" use whatever they can get - maybe total legalization would be the ultimate damage control?

[defendandprotect]

64. Agree --- and do it now -- !!!

[FiveGoodMen]

65. Completely agree.

:toast:

[0rganism]

67. the cartels will never allow it

When you talk legalization, you're talking about stepping directly on the toes of some very powerful organized criminals who use the price supports from illegality of mind- and mood-altering substances as a way to pay the rent.

The way things are now, any politician at the national level who proposes blanket legalization is getting a horse head in his bed, at the very least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzlsmSqSqXI <- for those who don't get the reference

[Taverner]

72. No, the CIA will never allow that

[theaocp]

73. Lame.

You forgot to include the word, "regulate." Oh, and I agree.

[wildbilln864]

74. agreed! eom.

[bigwillq]

75. I've always believed that.

K and R

[Nevernose]

76. Give me $20 and 20 minutes

And I can get any illegal drug you want. (granted, it's not a great neighborhood:) ).

So tell me: what the hell is the point of keeping them illegal? It's not helping stop or even slow drug use; anyone who wants to use them already CAN use them. All prohibition does is erode our civil liberties and create a permanent underclass of citizens.

[OwnedByFerrets]

77. I've been saying it for years.

[CloakedClock]

81. I think Ron Paul...

...Kind of has the right idea on this one. I have a love/hate relationship with that guy. Love his stances on American imperialism/needless wars, the Patriot Act/national security state, the Federal Reserve, corporate money, Wall Street, the War on Drugs, and the prison-industrial complex. Not so much a fan of his stance on social safety net programs, regulations, Social Security, the FDA, the EPA, health care, Medicare, taxes, etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Makes a fuckload more sense than what we're doing now

I'll say that.

[dddem]

86. I've been saying that for years

It's pretty obvious that making drugs illegal doesn't prevent drug addiction. And if you tax those government issued drugs, you can easily fund prevention and detox programs. Easy peesy

[Enthusiast]

87. We would be money ahead if we bought

every addict's daily dose.

Keeping these drugs illegal only serves the money launderers, drug producers, smugglers and drug lords.

The legal status of these drugs does more harm than the drugs themselves.

[ellisonz]

90. Meth is some scary shit and heroin kills. But other than that...legalize.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

102. If all drugs were legal except Meth and Heroin ...

then gangs would supply the black market in Meth and Heroin.

There is market demand to be satisfied, so why not legalize them too?

:hi:

[ellisonz]

155. Either that or people could switch to...

chewing coca leaves and smoking opium. Both of which are traditional forms of ingestion, practiced for thousands of years. In my personal experience, I've seen meth drive family members and friends to the brink of insanity and have had friends die from heroin overdoses. You will not convince me that society does not have a role in attempting to regulate and reduce the harm of such substances. I have no objection if they want to sit around and do coke, smoke hash blunts and opium hookah. :toast:

The fact is that currently marijuana smuggling underwrites the transporting of cocaine, poppy fields, and meth production. I think that if you take away that cash cow then the black market will not be able to sustain itself. The street cost of a gram of either substance would go through the roof. Also crack is whack. I'm for legalization, but there has to be some sense to it otherwise society would not tolerate even a step in the right direction. :hurts:

I'm a liberal; not a libertarian.

[A HERETIC I AM]

160. Ever done heroin? n/t

[Dogtown]

92. 100% agreement, Taverner n/t

[Modern_Matthew]

93. It worked for Portugal...

And I don't want to hear that bullshit like "Portugal is a different place. Blah. Blah. Blah."

"Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.

"Between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html#ixzz1Ygdnvb8C

[ProSense]

94. Portugal

didn't legalize all drugs, it was decriminalization.

Time Magazine Examines Drug Decrim in Portugal

<...>

Though the headline — “The Portuguese Experiment: Did Legalizing Drugs Work?” — is inaccurate (Portugal decriminalized, not legalized, drugs), the article itself (which Time is promoting with a fair amount of prominence) provides an excellent discussion of the unambiguous success of drug decriminalization and the impact which those findings ought to have on our own drug policy debates:

<...>

Portugal drug law show results ten years on, experts say

<...>

A law that became active on July 1, 2001 did not legalise drug use, but forced users caught with banned substances to appear in front of special addiction panels rather than in a criminal court.

The panels composed of psychologists, judges and social workers recommended action based on the specifics of each case.

Since then, government panels have recommended a response based largely on whether the individual is an occasional drug user or an addict.

Of the nearly 40,000 people currently being treated, "the vast majority of problematic users are today supported by a system that does not treat them as delinquents but as sick people," Goulao said.

<...>

[Modern_Matthew]

98. If they had that much success with decriminalization, then...

Imagine how we'd do with legalization...

Legal suppliers (safer for drug users), more tax revenues to be spent on rehabilitation and education.

[FedUpWithIt All]

119. This is a very important distinction that many don't seem able to grasp.

This is not just semantics.


I support decriminalization and am VERY OPPOSED to legalization.

[Jim_Shorts]

113. This is one nation , under god

not the 50 states for the heathen pot smoking hippies. The Netherlands wouldn't know a healthy god fearing corporate consumer driven society if they saw one. Thank god we have the largest incarceration rates in the world. Ra Ra Ra ... We are #1
(incarceration rates per 100000)

(hopefully I don't have to add the sarcasm tag to this post)

[duhneece]

95. LEAP agrees with you

Law Enforcement Against Prohibition agrees with you 100%.
http://www.leap.cc/

Vision Statement
LEAP envisions a world in which drug policies work for the benefit of society and keep our communities safer. A system of legalization and regulation will end the violence, better protect human rights, safeguard our children, reduce crime and disease, treat drug abusers as patients, reduce addiction, use tax dollars more efficiently, and restore the public’s respect and trust in law enforcement.

Mission Statement
The mission of LEAP is to reduce the multitude of unintended harmful consequences resulting from fighting the war on drugs and to lessen the incidence of death, disease, crime, and addiction by ending drug prohibition.

LEAP’s goals are: (1) To educate the public, the media and policy makers about the failure of current drug policy by presenting a true picture of the history, causes and effects of drug use and the elevated crime rates more properly related to drug prohibition than to drug pharmacology and (2) To restore the public’s respect for police, which has been greatly diminished by law enforcements involvement in imposing drug prohibition.

[and-justice-for-all]

99. The war on drugs is a joke...nt

[JVS]

100. Music would get so much better!

[AllyCat]

103. You're right. ALL of them.

Get over the "driving under the influence" and make it "driving while impaired" or "unsafe to operate a motor vehicle" or some other designation that would get the people who are also driving on no sleep, or eating, or reading, or talking on their phones.

But this drug thing is a crock.

[spanone]

104. i'm with you. put the cartels out of business instantly.

[JCMach1]

105. I would go for this if they cut out the need for prescriptions to get any drugs...

[drokhole]

106. This needs to be done so everyone can have legal access to psychedelics...

...and, what's more, thoroughly trained professionals to help guide them through their experience. I honestly believe we'd be better off as a society if this were the case. Just listen, for example, to this short lecture by Dr. Roland Griffiths, Professor in the Departments of Psychiatry and Neurosciences at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, where he and his team administered psilocybin (the active ingredient in "magic mushrooms") to several individuals - most of which described the experience as "one of the five most significant" in their lives:

TEDxMidAtlantic - Roland Griffiths - 11/5/09
'Magic Mushrooms' Can Improve Psychological Health Long Term

And then there's this similar study done by Dr. Rick Strassman on the compound DMT:

DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences
DMT: The Spirit Molecule Documentary

And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Aldous Huxley's wonderful account of his experience on mescaline:

The Doors of Perception

Then you have studies/circumstances that have shown these substances to help cure folks of actual dangerous addictions to harder "drugs" - like Ibogaine's effect on heroin users after one administration:

IBOGAINE IN THE NEWS

Or LSD's promising ability in helping treat alcoholics:

LSD Treatment For Alcoholism Gets New Look


But, even all that aside, and on the larger issue as a whole (to the OP's point) - we should end this nonsense of legislating morality. Here is a FANTASTIC talk by Alan Watts that does a spectacular job at thoroughly covering this very issue:

Drug Abuse Law & Sin ∞ Alan Watts (1/5)
(there are links to parts 2-5 on the same page...the entire talk is well worth a listen)

"Let us declare nature to be legitimate. The notion of illegal plants is obnoxious and ridiculous in the first place." - Terence McKenna

[Vidar]

108. I agree.

[Plucketeer]

109. THANK YOU for this thread!

The massive amounts of treasure AND blood that's wasted in trying to keep this stuff away from those Americans who seek it - I'm certain we'll NEVER be able to accurately tabulate!

We'd be better off if we spent a FRACTION of what the ANTI-efforts cost to bring the stuff in from it's various source locations and hand it out for FREE..... to those age 21 or older. Spend another minescule amount to check the purity and strength of what we're handing out.
People are gonna die??? They're dying ANYWAY! And so are folks from the supply lines and the deterrent forces!

Doing drugs is a personal CHOICE. I choose not to. But WHY should I pay to inhibit someone who DOES choose to do so?

[Supply Side Jesus]

110. Have you ever dealt with someone out of the fuckin mind on Meth or PCP

if you did you would feel this way I guarantee it.

[Moosepoop]

111. Yes, I have.

I have also dealt with those out of their minds on alcohol. I'd rather take on the former than the latter.

[FedUpWithIt All]

117. I have also dealt extensively with both

A person with DTs behaves in much the same manner as one altered during certain types of heavy drug use BUT DTs are not common with most typical alcohol use. Typical alcohol use is a non event compared to severely addicted hard drug users behavior.

One is nearly assured to cause severe results the other rarely does. I'll take the one that rarely does.

[Moosepoop]

129. Who said anything about DTs?

The question was about behavior while ON a given drug, not withdrawing from it.

"Typical" alcohol use? You've mentioned elsewhere on this thread that you were raised by addicts.

Was alcohol one of the addictions? Behavior exhibited by alcoholics (even when not under the influence) is not what I or many others who have dealt with it call a "non-event."

[FedUpWithIt All]

131. Some alcoholics experience withdrawl symptoms from even short term abstinance

So even without an attempt to withdraw, the need to experience short term periods of abstinence in typical daily life can cause delirium.

I have had extensive exposure to extreme alcoholism in addition to exposure to addicts of other stripes.

I said typical alcohol behavior is practically a non-event compared to the more common behavior of heavy drug use. By typical i mean common alcohol usage.

I have known extreme violence at the hands of both but the violence administered with a drug induced psychosis was much worse IMHO.

I realize from rereading that i was not clear in the post you were responding to. The alcoholic in my life would hallucinate and experience tremors with even a slight abstinence from alcohol. This experience was comparable to the heavy drug addict behavior. Outside of this type of experience, the alcoholic addict was violent, irrational, manipulative and otherwise dangerous in a number of ways BUT could often be reasoned with to a degree and had a somewhat common pattern to their behavior. The drug addictive behavior had much of the same antisocial behavior but was far more unpredictable, had a much more dangerous edge to the violence and was often far more terrifying.

[Supply Side Jesus]

136. i hate dealing with drunks!

[FedUpWithIt All]

114. I have grown up with addicts and i usually avoid threads like this because they cause me real stress

Your flippant attitude disgusts me and i am not one to state these things lightly.


Addicts would CERTAINLY use non legal means to acquire cheaper drugs or drugs which have no "requirements" attached. You think the underbelly is dangerous and ugly now? Wait.

"And I can guarantee you, the heroin user - he's not doing anything. Literally. He or she doesn't even want to eat, let alone kill."

And where exactly, does this addict get the money for his drug? Is he going to go get an upstanding job once his "poison" is legal? Are we going to just GIVE him the drug? While requiring what in return? treatment? Therapy? And you think he is not going to search out easier ways to attain his high?

I suppose the domestic crime caused by addicts will suddenly disappear once an addict is "legit"? Your mention up thread that addicts are not influenced by their drug is just laughable due to the obvious ignorance on the subject and should cause most to totally disregard your view on the subject, at large, due to that fact.

So damned arrogant and short sighted.

[peace frog]

120. So true, and thank you for saying it

I don't like to think about what my addicted family members had to do, and did, to score their drugs. Although they have been clean for years, to this day they find that period of their lives shameful and horrifying to talk about. Simplistic? Short sighted? Definitely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Alas two cases of legalization point to the thesis

being somewhat provable... see the Netherlands and yes Portugal.

Oh I should add Berne Switzerland. Of course they also emphasize treatment... but really two countries have so far legalized use and criminal rates went down, as well as yes, USAGE.

[FedUpWithIt All]

146. Portugal did not legalize drug use. It is still illegal

They simply decriminalized it. You do not go to jail, you get mandatory treatment when found with illegal substances. I support this model.

In the Netherlands, there is a tolerance program and certain agencies are allowed to sell marijuana. Possession is still illegal. Due to purchase restrictions, much of the drug is still sought from illegal sources. The use of heavier drugs also increased early on during the time the legalization of cannabis but later stabilized only when more harm reduction policies were implemented.

As for needle park...

“The strange scene has been a fixture in Zurich for several years, tolerated by city officials who are convinced that drug use should be regarded as a sickness rather than a crime. Social and medical workers estimate that about 300 to 400 heavy drug users live in the park without shelter, toilets or showers, and that as many as 3,000 others pass through daily to buy and use drugs………..the midway of the grotesque carnival is a concrete path along the edge of the Limmat River, lined with makeshift counters covered with neatly arranged spoons, bottles of water and paper cups bristling with slender, disposable syringes. The crowd thickens as night falls and drug hustlers work their way through the sea of bodies clogging the path, calling out ''Sugar, sugar, fine sugar!'' when they mean heroin, and ''Cokay, cokay!'' for cocaine……..the other night, three men crouched under a park lamppost, dividing a white powdery pancake of heroin with a Swiss Army knife. Next to them, a woman lay in the dirt in a stupor. Four or five men were intensely working needles into their arms. A woman in a striped sweater probed for veins in one hand, blood streaming down her fingers, as a woman in leather pants and stained blouse wobbled past, a bloody syringe dangling from her neck.”



http://picturesandperspectives.blogspot.com/2009/04/switzerland-platzspitz-or-needle-park.html

Edited to add, i have no dog in the marijuana legalization race. I do not oppose it and since i am not a user i am not overly concerned with the discussion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Yeah and while we discuss this

people die, users, and non users and people are getting immensely rich on BOTH SIDES of the divide. This is why you will not see legalization in the US.

But the two cases I mentioned... point to what needs to happen, for what we are doing ain't working.

[FedUpWithIt All]

151. Just as they would under a legalization. It's what happens when people inject themselves

with potentially fatal substances in ever increasing dosages, often while in a type of altered judgement from other substances and/or some level of brain damage from previous injections of potentially fatal substances.... :eyes:

Legalization IS NOT being practiced in either of your examples, is not proven a successful model and as such should NOT be the goal here. We should be implementing what is proven to work and that is decriminalization of users when found with, selling or using ILLEGAL substances.


The two cases you pointed to are very different in their approach. I support the decriminalization The Netherlands model has not been standing up as well over time and many communities are beginning to withdraw their support.

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. Perhaps I have a slightly different view of drugs

since as a medic I used to administer them too... legal drugs.

To paraphrase my pharmacology instructor all drugs are a poison... all of them, and all of them can kill. Yes, even the very legal and over the counter tylenol.

Yes people will continue to die... nobody is saying they won't.

Regardless that won't happen... way too many people are getting rich from it. So don't worry, we will keep doing what is not working...

In my mind treatment should be the goal, but there is really no money there.

[ellisonz]

156. Marijuana has never killed anybody.

[femrap]

123. If our culture were

rational and filled with educated people, drugs could be legalized.

What should be outlawed is irrational and willfully ignorant people.

[liberation]

130. Drugs are not for everyone, but everyone that wants drugs should have access to them

it comes down to personal choice.

If the government does not want to provide universal health care to take care of my body, they sure as hell should not be able to tell me what I can or can't do with it.


I rather spend a fraction of the money we waste on the drug war on education and treatment of addiction. Some people may be severely affected, in a negative way, by drug use. If they have access to education and treatment the negative effects of drugs can be prevented and avoided far more effectively than under the repressive and reactionary drug enforcement we have to suffer.

[BrendaBrick]

134. I want to reiterate what Liberal Loner posted...

Because I think it is important enough to bear repeating:

"I think we should work on WHY as a society we are turning to addictive substances"...(and I would add)...or ANY ADDICTION, for that matter!

I feel this is at the real driving heart of the matter ~

[rollin74]

135. not going to happen

[sarcasmo]

138. It would solve a lot of bullshit that is for sure.

The problem is there are to many feeding of the criminalization tit.

[Dreamer Tatum]

154. Let's let your kids get access to meth and see how you like that.

Then we'll talk about making them ALL legal.

[etherealtruth]

159. I am not a big fan of recreational drug use ....

I am a fan of legalizing all drugs.

[Dokkie]

161. best thread ever

completely agree with ALL drug legalization. While you are at it, dont forget prostitution

[mdmc]

162. ..