Just today "uncivilized" Iran frees innocent prisoners, and the U.S. to kill an innocent prisoner?

[cascadiance]

They treat American prisoners better and ultimately with more justice than we do, as badly as they've treated those hikers already.

The irony of this is dripping and chilling! What kind of country have we become! Why do I have to feel I have nothing to celebrate on my birthday this coming weekend! Sheesh!

http://abcnews.go.com/International/shane-bauer-joshua-fattal-american-hikers-freed-jail/story?id=14569697

[digitaln3rd]

1. He killed a cop.

He's not innocent.....

[white_wolf]

2. The evidence suggests otherwise.

Besides as I've said before the death penalty is nothing more than state-sanctioned murder. It's barbarism and anyone who advocates for it needs to abandon their dark ages mentality and come into the 21st century. Looks like Iran is better than us in this instance.

[digitaln3rd]

9. Yes, Iran is better...

The country that stones people just for being gay.

Right.

And the death penalty isn't barbaric - it's quite the opposite. They get off pretty easy compared to what they did to their victims.

[marmar]

13. It's state-sanctioned murder, no matter how much lipstick you put on it.

nt

[white_wolf]

16. Your reading comprehension must be off. Here is what I said:

"Looks like Iran is better than us in this instance." Notice, how I said in this instance? I said that so it would be clear that I don't think Iran is better than us in all cases, but in this one specific one they are. Once again, the death penalty is state sanctioned murder, to support it is to support murder. You can try and justify it all you want, but it doesn't change a damn thing.

[teddy51]

22. No, the DP is Barbaric.... Taking someones life is a barbaric act. n/t

[cascadiance]

3. Do we know that "beyond a reasonable doubt"?

Don't think so!!!

Seems like we've turned back on that long held principle of American justice to facilitate people's need for revenge in this country.

http://yourblackworld.com/2011/09/09/facts-you-may-not-know-about-the-troy-davis-case/

[midnight]

4. A great big thank you to responses 2 & 3.

[uppityperson]

6. He was convicted on the basis of witnesses who have since recanted (ie, they lied)

Another man said he killed the cop, not Davis. He could be innocent of cop killing.

[cascadiance]

19. And that man was one of the two people that didn't recant their testimony...

I wonder what the story is of the other one that didn't recant his/her testimony who wasn't a suspect in the killing.

[treestar]

But the evidence is highly questionable.

He may not have killed the cop, and that's what the issue is.

[Firebrand Gary]

So say you.

And from what is being said by former Presidents, Republicans and Democrats alike along with the POPE I choose to believe them rather than you.

[NaturalHigh]

5. I don't believe that he's innocent.

Apparently a lot of courts don't either. We know for sure that he shot someone else and beat up a homeless man that night. I'm more than willing to have a conversation about the death penalty, and it wouldn't bother me at all if it were abolished; but I'm not willing to make a hero out of someone who has committed such vicious crimes.

[cascadiance]

8. The crime of which he's sentenced to death is seriously doubtful...

Now. If there's another crime that he's committed, and evidence can be found for it, and I don't think there's a statute of limitations on murder, try him for that if there's evidence to put him away and do so.

But at this point, to kill someone (and not be able to "correct" that punishment later when this "crime" is seriously in doubt I feel is an indictment on our state and collectively all of us that want to pull the lever equally for the crime of murder. Why do we want to kill people so much! Who are the real murderers here?

I have no problem to keeping him in prison until he has a trial that can prove him to be innocent, but killing him now with this sort of doubt in my book is a crime.

[NaturalHigh]

24. Cascadiance, I'm not trying to advocate for his execution.

I just don't believe that he's innocent. Certainly his behavior on that night was savage. However, I would not be unhappy to see his and all other death sentences commuted to life without parole.

[cascadiance]

27. Agreed...

I don't know enough to let him off the hook completely. But our system is broken when there's this much doubt on whether he committed this crime and we still want to commute the ultimate sentence without helping ourselves be sure. I feel far more confident that OJ committed those murderers than this guy. And he was freed.

DNA evidence over the years have shown that so many people are unjustly convicted. We really can't afford to make these mistakes where there's no way to try and make amends for it. It's bad enough that many of those that were found innocent later have had to live for so many years in prison unjustly. But at least they get a chance to restart their life and we have a chance to help them do so when we make mistakes then.

[teddy51]

32. I don't believe that Troy Davis was a choir boy either, when all of this went down.

But the question before us is he guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, given all of the new information coming forth? I think that a stay should be granted in order to assess the new information.

[NaturalHigh]

36. Yes, that's the heart of the question.

Again, I frankly believe that he's guilty, but I agree with the need to be more than certain in this type of case.

Oh, by the way, I think you meant "assess", not "asses". :)

[teddy51]

38. lol Thanks for pointing that out.... My spelling is bad and I usually rely on spell check. Thanks!

[EOTE]

45. We certainly do not know that.

There is no physical evidence linking him to either crime. The only reason he was brought up on charges for the first shooting was so they could link the bullets used in that shooting to the fatal cop shooting. No weapon was retrieved in either case.

[RZM]

7. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Iran has executed innocent people before

Or at the very least people who may or may not have been innocent but whose convictions were based on problematic evidence (or lack thereof).

Maybe it would be more appropriate to compare one of those cases to the Davis case.

The hiker case in Iran was a stunt from the beginning. The Iranian authorities took advantage of the boneheaded decision these people made to hike where their did to make hay and shame the US. It was about politics, diplomacy, and posturing, not justice.

[cascadiance]

14. Oh, I'm sure that Iran has done so too.

This is by no means any effort to excuse Iran for the many criminal acts that they've committed in the past. Still remember that woman who was killed in their protests by "agents" of the government there.

But I just find it odd that juxtaposed against us likely killing an innocent prisoner, Iran has chosen today to let go some long held and prominent prisoners on the same day. I'm guessing that many in the rest of the world are also noticing this.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. Except that your wording does excuse Iran, it declares that they

release the innocent and we do not, which means that when they kill gay people, you are saying those are not innocent people. You also claim that to call Iran uncivilized is not appropriate on your way to making your point, which was I hope, not to defend the human rights abuses in Iran, which are rife.
I am against the death penalty in all cases. Not just the ones here, not just the ones Iran says are 'not innocent'. So whatever.

[cascadiance]

33. I'm saying that today in this instance they freed prisoners...

I haven't said that they do it routinely, and wouldn't say so. I was trying to fit this irony in the wording of a subject line, not make a case there for complete story of whether Iran is a "good" justice system or not.

I just find it ironic that a state that we know have in the past abused the innocent and justice for its people happens to right a wrong they committed, but our government doesn't seem to be able to do so when it likely has an innocent person waiting to be killed.

And Iran along with the U.S. is one of something like only nine countries on this planet that still uses the death penalty to punish its guilty citizens. I certainly don't endorse their system.

[marmar]

10. Some of the responses in this thread give a scary glimpse into the mindset of many.....

...... no matter how much contradictory evidence there is, he's gotta be guilty, 'cause the perfect justice system told me so.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. Iran executes gay people. And you say they free the innocents?

Bite me.

[pintobean]

12. Iran released 2 hostages for a million dollar ransom.

Bail? After a conviction and while serving a sentence? They were always hostages. The trial and conviction were a farce.

[treestar]

15. There's a fallacy there

I am against the execution but recognize the death sentence was arrived at under our legal proceedings. I oppose the death penalty but that does not mean people can't be legally sentenced to death.

Whereas Iran is a major violator of human rights.

You can take any two distinct cases, but they will not reveal the overall facts. Iran may not want to risk harming Americans as a matter of foreign policy. But that doesn't mean they have a legal system we would want.

[virgogal]

17. Celebrate the fact that you are alive on your birthday,that's what

birthdays are about.

Lighten up.

[Firebrand Gary]

18. As the UN recognizes today as an international day of peace.

[Fool Count]

20. I don't know about "innocence" of US "hikers".

They did cross the border illegally, didn't they? That's, like, against the law even in the US.

[cascadiance]

23. There was a question on whether they knew they'd crossed the border or not...

And I recall the woman that was released earlier noting this on Democracy Now a while back and that other factors perhaps encouraged them to go that direction, perhaps even lured over by the Iranian border police that were on the scene then.

[Hoosier Daddy]

25. Who the Hell goes hiking in a war zone???

Remember, this incident occurred BEFORE our combat mission in Iraq was "over."

[Poll_Blind]

28. Ding! Ding! Ding! Who the hell decides that is a good idea?

Really. I mean, anyone reading this message should actually consider that simple fact. It's like going hiking through Fukushima or across the North Korean border.

Come on. Of all the fucking places in the world...why hike in one of the few places where you are guaranteed to be killed or captured? Are the rocks really that much a better shade of dead?

Really?

Come the fuck on.

PB

[RZM]

30. What about that kid who went to Iraq during Christmas break?

That was even dumber. He was actually in populated areas when the violence was raging. I don't remember hearing much about him being a spy though . . .

People do stupid shit. It happens.

[Poll_Blind]

37. You mean to Libya? An idiot. BTW, I didn't say any of them were spies.

Just that what they were doing was...well...grotesquely misinformed at best.

PB

[RZM]

40. I was talking about this story from 2005

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Teenager_in_Florida,_United_States_skips_school,_goes_to_Iraq

[cascadiance]

41. These areas have always been a problem. Met the Kuntz bros 1 of who got killed in Afghanistan...

... when they and their mule, who they named "Will E. Makeit" were trying to walk around the world, and were walking through Turkey at the time when we met them when they kept his mule in the horse stable we had there.

Later on they got ambushed by bandits in Afghanistan (and this was back in the early 70's), and one of them got (John) got killed in that event and David Kuntz had to continue this effort on his own... Documented here...

http://home.earthlink.net/~earthwalker1/

Basically in that part of the world... Stuff happens. Doesn't mean that everyone has that happen.

The Kuntz brothers were one of only two sets of autographs I had in an autograph book then. The other was from the Blue Angel pilots who we met at dinner time after they did a show on the Italian coastline. A month later one or two of them died in an air crash they had. As a likely candidate for a Warehouse 13 episode, I put away that autograph book and didn't want to have anyone else sign it from that point forward. Thought about trying to drag it out to get Bush to sign it, but thought better of that too! :)

[RZM]

29. The only thing stupider than hiking there

Would be the government sending these three on an intelligence mission and using hiking as the cover story. I'm going to go with the former.

[Hoosier Daddy]

21. Eyewitness evidence is shaky to begin with

And with seven people retracting their testimony.....

[marasinghe]

31. neither the US, nor Iran, qualify for the description "civilized".

having stated the obvious,
let me wish you a Happy Birthday;
and celebrate the fact of your own humanity, this weekend.
Cheers ~

[pinboy3niner]

34. Um...Iran executed a teenager today by public hanging

September 21, 2011


Iran executes teenager accused of killing “Iran’s strongest man”


A 17-year old convicted of killing an athlete known as “Iran’s strongest man” was publicly hanged in the city of Karaj, near Tehran on Wednesday.

Alireza Molla-Soltani was sentenced to death last month for stabbing Ruhollah Dadashi, a popular athlete during a driving dispute on 17 July. The 17-year old said he panicked and stabbed Ruhollah Dadashi in self-defence after the athlete attacked him in the dark, according to local media reports.

“The execution of a 17-year old is deeply shocking, particularly when carried out in public, which brutalises all those involved, including those who witness it,” said Hassiba Hadj Sahraoui, Amnesty International’s Deputy Director for the Middle East and North Africa.

“Executing juvenile offenders – whatever their age at the time of execution - is strictly forbidden under international treaties that Iran has signed up to. It is high time for the Iranian authorities to take their international obligations seriously and immediately stop executing teenagers," she added.

...


http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/iran-executes-teenager-accused-killing-%E2%80%9Ciran%E2%80%99s-strongest-man%E2%80%9D-2011-09-21

[Starbucks Anarchist]

35. They also try to stone women for adultery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakineh_Ashtiani

Real civilized. :eyes:

[Carnage251]

39. Wrong! Iran treats prisoners and dissenters barbarically

You want to become more like Iran?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/iran/report-2011

In May, four Kurds convicted for their alleged links with Kurdish opposition groups were executed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stoning_of_Soraya_M.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%ADs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran


For fuck's sack they held them for 2 years.

[cascadiance]

43. Again, I called them uncivilized, and know they rightfully have this reputation...

But today they DID let go two innocent prisoners, and that juxtaposed against us wanting to kill someone that very likely is innocent is what makes it feel odd for me.

One of my best friends is Iranian, and has had to stay away from that country for decades since the revolution when he and I were college buddies then. The fact that they otherwise have been such an oppressive regime makes these two events that much more ironic happening on the same day.

[Worship Money]

42. It's not a zero sum game

The fact that our government acts in a deplorable, oppressive manner doesn't mean that Iran doesn't or can't. They do.

The shadowy Revolutionary Guards/Mullah cabal over there is vile.

[emilyg]

44. We don't know if he's innocent.