I don't think our economy will ever recover significantly until the price of

[demosincebirth]

gasoline comes down and stabilize to around 2.00 - 2.50 a gal. I am currently paying $100 s month more on gasoline than I was when it was down that low three or so years ago. I know that many of us pay more or less, but just think if that extra $100 going into the economy instead of to the oil companies what a boom that would be to our economy.

[Pirate Smile]

1. I just noticed that it had come down around a dime or so over the past week. It was supposed to be

dropping but then stalled.

I was hoping it would drop below $3.

It is heading down now. It just needs to keep going.

[graywarrior]

2. I totally agree with you.

Most of my paycheck goes into the gas tank and I get 40 MPG.

[bigwillq]

6. Don't you know

you're supposed to drive your bike or run to work. I mean, COME ON, get with it.

[LadyInAZ]

8. For some of us....

this is not an option... living in a desert area with a distances of miles to travel, riding a bike to work isn't the way to go... getting with it can not apply to everyone... special when the heat index can be as high as 120 or more degrees.

[a la izquierda]

10. I'm pretty sure he was being ironic...

but since you're new, I can see how that would be hard to miss. It's a current jab thrown at drivers. A lot of us do get it (even some of us cyclists).

[bigwillq]

12. I was joking.

Yes, it's not an option for everyone, me included.

[Eddie Haskell]

53. Move!

You're unsustainable.

[LadyInAZ]

70. wondering... are you paying for relocation?

[Eddie Haskell]

71. Sorry, but I spent all my money on a hybrid ...

bike. The age of cheap oil is over. Get prepared.

[graywarrior]

15. Or ride my pony

[bigwillq]

16. How could I forget about your pony!

:rofl:

[graywarrior]

17. His name is Alan

lol

[bigwillq]

20. I would've guessed Dylan

;)

[graywarrior]

21. Idiot Wind!

He's my spanking toy.

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. ...

:evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

62. I know that if it wasn't for whiny, anti-gas environmental types

oil would be, like, totally cheap if not free, and it would NEVER RUN OUT!

Fie on you, hippies!

[OhioChick]

3. The economy won't recover significantly until people have JOBS

[demosincebirth]

5. Really?

[OhioChick]

11. Truly...

People in this neck of the woods are letting their cars sit.

No job = No gas $$$$ for the car

[abelenkpe]

18. +1000

Europe has always paid far more. I think jobs are the key not the price of gasoline.

[SmileyRose]

25. We all had jobs when the economy went south - so that's not the real issue

Unemployment is only a symptom just like the loss of buying power over the last 3 decades was. The real root of the problem that needs to be fixed won't be though.

Just my opinion.

[Eddie Haskell]

55. I'll bite ...

What's the real root?

[raccoon]

50. Yes, JOBS, not just McJobs. I wouldn't hold my breath. nt

[begin_within]

4. The only thing that would make that happen is if people stop buying it.

And that's not going to happen, because Americans are addicted to gasoline. And to an addict, the price doesn't matter - only the availability matters.

[demosincebirth]

7. I don't know about you, but to some of us it's a matter off survival

[SammyWinstonJack]

54. Don't you know, you're suppose to live within walking distance of your job?

:silly:

[demosincebirth]

65. Darn it! I should have taken that job at McDonalds, around the corner.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. What do you think's going to happen when the oil runs out?

Ever bother to consider that?

[NYC_SKP]

9. Our economy, as we knew it, and $2.00/gallon gas, will never return...

And just as well, it was unsustainable and bound to crash, all based on speculation and dependent upon an impossible model of expansion and exploitation.

No more $2.00 gas, but we can hope to drive vehicles that get double the mileage, or find work that requires half the travel, and if we do both our costs drop to 25% from before.

We need to be prepared for a very different future.

Next crisis, Water.

[Angry Dragon]

13. Last I heard was oil was at about $85/bl

before it was around $120/bl when gas was this price

Someone is gaming the market
kock brothers and other hedgers

[Spider Jerusalem]

26. No-one is gaming the market. Oil is at about $110 a barrel.

North Sea Brent crude, $111. Louisiana Light Sweet, $114. Arab Light, $107. Alaska North Slope, $114. Bonny Light crude: $114. The West Texas Intermediate oil used as a benchmark in the US is not reflective of the real market price of oil because of an excess of inventory at the oil depot in Cushing, Oklahoma and a lack of pipelines to move it to refineries.

[demosincebirth]

27. High gas prices, less hiring. Who benifits?

[Another Bill C.]

14. Using 1980 as a base,

the inflation-adjusted price of gas should be $3.26/gal.

The 70s saw the beginning of major increases in gas prices so using 1970 as a base, the price should be around $2.00/gal.

[dkf]

19. 1.3 billion Chinese and 1.2 billion Indians who want to drive cars won't let that happen.

Dream on.

[Cool Logic]

22. It's not just our economy anymore...

The price of crude oil and other world commodities are governed by the simple economic principle of supply and demand.

[demosincebirth]

29. It's no longer a matter of supply and demand, here. It is the manipulation of the

supply and demand factor by the oil companies and the speculators.

[bhikkhu]

42. The cost of production is a significant factor

while I wouldn't argue that the oil companies are profitable - that tends to happen when one has a commodity where supply is limited and demand is high - one thing putting a pretty solid floor on the price of oil, and so on the price of gas, is the cost of production. It has gone up significantly in the past ten years, and the fields being developed now are increasingly remote, technically difficult to exploit, and yield low grade oil that is more difficult to refine.

The days of cheap gas are over. I'd advise anyone who hasn't done so already - think, if you had two or three years to arrange your affairs so you didn't depend upon oil so much, what would you do? Find different ways to get around, move closer to work, work closer to home, etc...

[demosincebirth]

64. according to your last paragraph you are one of the few who doesn't have to worry

about the price of fuel. That's nice.

Back to subject or price manipulation. We (Bay Area) have five major refineries within 25 miles of any city in this area, yet our gasoline is the highest in the nation. You can travel to the central valley along the 99 corridor and find gasoline selling for thirty cents a gallon less. All of their fuel is refined in the Bay Area. Oil companies and experts in this field, for many years, have given us explanations why this is so and none of it has made sense to me or to any other person I know. They don't seem to give a direct answer to any question they are asked. They remind me of politicians.
They are manipulating the factor of supply and demand, just like a magician doing a slight of hand trick, and explaining it with double talk. I haven't, as yet, gotten a straight answer from any official of the Oil industry including those talking heads in the MSN.

[bhikkhu]

68. True, local manipulation and collusion to keep prices high is possible

because people won't drive very far to get cheaper gas if its 25 or 30 cents the next town over. But the major underlying factor of higher gasoline prices isn't local manipulation, or gas station profit-taking, or refinery margins, or even commodity trading - its the higher cost of getting the oil out of the ground.



...for a general idea of the rising costs. On the right is the cost of the "old oil". For the most part, the cheap stuff is running out and the new stuff costs a lot more to get to, and then there's refining and so forth before it gets to the gas station. Basically, there isn't going to be any more cheap oil, and we may as well accept it and do our best to plan accordingly.

In 2008 my family had a couple of setbacks, and I decided the easiest way to cope would be to reduce to one car, and I'd commute to work and run errands by bicycle. That's what I've been doing since, and just that one change has a great deal of money, and more or less solved our budget problems.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. The only way that's going to happen is if there is another severe recession/depression

that leads to significant global demand destruction. Oil is still at about $110 a barrel. The oil price quoted by US financial news is very misleading and inaccurate; see here.

And while demand is relatively flat in the developed world it's continuing to increase in China, India, and Brazil. The US imports over half of its oil and the global market price is a significant factor.

[Auntie Bush]

24. My daughter and her husband pay $500.00 /mo. for gasoline.

There are lots of things they planned to do and places to go but now they can't. Took a 3 day vacation at a local Inn and cancelled a trip to Italy. Yes, high gas prices are damaging our country and the recovery.

[demosincebirth]

28. You are right. Cut that in half and what would they do with other $250,

[garybeck]

30. high gas prices are good. it encourages people to drive less.

i'm sorry it's hitting you so hard, but we need to move away from an economy that is dependent on oil.

there are alternatives. I have a car that runs on vegetable oil.

[Abq_Sarah]

40. Viable alternatives for millions of people?

Not right now.

In any event, if enough people went the biodiesel route, it would be much more expensive in every way than gasoline. I don't know about you, but I'm not too keen about agricultural land being used to fuel vehicles instead of feed people.

[garybeck]

44. waste vegetable oil

is not the same thing as biodiesel produced from agricultural farmland that would otherwise be used to feed people.

my car runs on vegetable oil. anyone can do it. in most cases you can get the fuel which is a waste product, for free. it is also carbon neutral.

of course there is not enough waste vegetable oil for everyone. but there is still A LOT being thrown away. we should use that.

in terms of viable alternatives for millions of people, algae based fuels is the most promising.

cheers.

[Sirveri]

49. Oil won't last forever, and the price will only go up.

If we really wanted something that worked, we'd centralize our economy around major urban hubs and mass transit networks, which would provide enough jobs for full employment for quite a while. But American's would rather have freedom to ignore their neighbors and live in McMansions out in the suburbs that have everything they could ever desire so they have no need to leave the house and actually interact with other human beings. Or something like that. Point is this, we will need an alternative either for oil or for transportation because it is a finite resource and we're using it dramatically faster than we are finding it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

56. It also encourages people to eat less.

High gas prices cause prices to rise across the board. :shrug:

[tech5270]

31. I'm in western PA and the price has been steady for a month

I don't think there's much chance the price will drop. That's one reason I'm glad I can get most everything I need within a two mile radius. I can get by filling up my 10 gal tank every few months.

[demosincebirth]

36. Nice to be in your position. nt

[Abin Sur]

37. I drive 400 miles a week, myself.

Now that I've purchased a hybrid that gets 45 mpg on the highway my gas bill is down to $125 a month...not bad compared to what it was just a little while ago.

[taught_me_patience]

32. Gasoline is a small percentage of discretionary income

If the median family income is 50k, then their after tax net is likely 35k.
If two people drive and average of 10,000/year at an average of 25mpg, they will consume 800 gallons per year, at $4/g, the yearly gas bill is 3,200... less then 10% of income.

[demosincebirth]

35. The average for one car is 12000 a year X 2 =24000 miles a year. Your 10%,

to some is gas for the car to commute or cut back on food. Nice not to have to worry about that.

[Abin Sur]

38. Single, 22,000 miles/year.

At an average of 40 mpg that works out to about 5% of income in my case. Quite manageable.

[OmahaBlueDog]

48. If you have a long commute, or you drive as part of your job, it takes a bite

In my part of the worls, a lot of people (regardless of income) are in pickups and SUVs getting 2/3 the MPG you list. Also, even with your figures, 10% is likely double the % of disposable income that family would have spent on fuel 5 years ago, and they probably have not received a raise in two to three years.

[Marrah_G]

57. Whether its a small amount or not depends on how much you make

The more you make the more efficient car you can buy and often the closer to your work you can live.

[Abin Sur]

33. I recently purchased a Honda Civic hybrid

Luckily, I was in a position to purchase it outright after trade-in. I realize not that not everyone has the finances to do that, of course.

[Initech]

45. I'm buying a Ford Focus - 40 MPG with no hybrid engine.

[Abin Sur]

58. Most hybrids grant only a fairly small increase in fuel economy, granted.

I just happened to really *like* the Honda Civic, and when I saw a used hybrid version at a good price in really nice shape, I snapped it up.

[Initech]

60. That's what I've been told.

I originally wanted a Fusion Hybrid but I've been told by a lot of people that with the way I drive a hybrid isn't the way to go.

[Abin Sur]

63. It takes a long time for a new hybrid to "pay" for the cost of being a hybrid

When compared to a similar non-hybrid. 5 years at least (at current gas price levels) if I remember correctly.

A used hybrid, on the other hand, has a smaller "gap", and makes more economic sense.

As for the way you drive, it does make a difference. To realize the full benefits of a hybrid, you have to accelerate and decelerate gently most of the time.

[Selatius]

34. Low gas prices will hurt less, but there are still fundamental problems with our economy.

[upi402]

39. trade law, campaign finance reform, restore the media

THAT is what I'm thinking it will take.
But I hope you are right cuz it's much more possible.

[bhikkhu]

41. Which is to say - the economy stays at this level

because oil isn't going down. You can blame speculators, but the bigger factor is worldwide supply and demand. And the big factor putting a "floor" on oil prices is the cost of production - the easy oil really is gone, as the saying goes, and the production that is replacing it is much more expensive to get at and to refine.

Which leaves the problem - what do we do if the economy won't grow? A steady-state economy actually has much to recommend it, and is well worth thinking about as a goal, in fact.

[Terry in Austin]

43. Welcome to the post-carbon future

Economy based on ever-increasing energy supply; oil peaks and starts to decline; economy does, too.

Long term, forget gas price decrease. And "recovery," for that matter -- it's a different world now, but nobody has the stomach to admit it yet.

:shrug:

[Initech]

46. But then there's this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1979555

You call it a "wealth increase", I call it fucking theft!

[OmahaBlueDog]

47. It's not just the price, but also the balance of trade issues surrounding the oil

We run huge trade deficits buying oil from the Middle East, Africa, Mexico, Canada, and Venezuela.

Then, we have to invest huge sums in defense to defend these overseas interests.

Drilling for more oil helps in the same way direct pressure aids a bad cut -- it's short term. Substituting wind for oil burning electrical plants can be a big part of the solution. Hybrid technology and better electric cars can help. We have plentiful NG in North America, and retooling to NG engines is not a huge leap from a technology standpoint. It's mostly building distribution infrastructure.

To your bigger point. Energy costs are part of the equation. Housing (little being built or sold and falling prices) is a second problem, and it's likely here for a while. We were in a huge building boom from the post WWII years, through the 60s, 70s, and 80s as the Boomers married and had families, And then through the 90s and into the middle of the last decade as the Gen ys and Gen xs married and had their families. The problem now is that the Greatest Generation is dying off and the Boomers are retiring (when economically feasible), and there will be a glut of used housing coming onto the market at the same time that many still can't sell because their mortgages are underwater. Many of these homes will end up in the rental markets, and it will be interesting to see how that impacts suburban demographics. Meanwhile, growth will likely remain glacial for the foreseeable.

The good news is that if the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan really do wind down, an economic boom usually ensues somewhere between 5-10 years after troops return. The military is good at teaching discipline, leadership, fearlessness, and management skills -- all of which translate well to the private sector.

[Eddie Haskell]

51. Be careful what you ask for ...

Lower gas prices will ride in on the back of a recession or worse. Instead of lamenting about your monthly bill, try a car pool, a bike, a walk, and a plan to cut your usage.

[FreeJoe]

59. Gas prices are too low

It won't help our economy in the short run, but I think that we need to start raising gas prices. I would set a price floor at $2 a gallon for 2012 and have it raise to $10 a gallon by 2022. The price increase should come in the form of a carbon tax that is rebated to people on a per capita basis. We need a carbon tax.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. Crack Addict: crack problem won't be solved until I have unlimited cheap crack

you DO realize that oil is a finite resource, right?

[Eddie Haskell]

72. Hard to keep the price low when your subsidizing it with blood.

:mad:

[Warren DeMontague]

73. The price is never going to be "low"

people need to deal with that reality, and move on.

[kentuck]

66. No doubt.

That would be one of the best stimulus we could get for our economy. That would be an instant pay raise for most working people in this country.

[DCBob]

67. There are much bigger problems than price of gas..

such as jobs, real estate mess, competition from Asia, EU crisis.. just to name a few.

[Nikia]

69. My next car will be an electric car

That can be a viable choice for many Americans. I think if a significant number of Americans made this choice that it would change everything.