Just a note on the McPhal family

[nadinbrzezinski]

I want to explain something about victims, having worked with a few over the years.

They WANTED this execution, not because they are evil, or depraved, or want a pound of flesh. They think, in the most honest of ways, that the death of Troy Davis will bring them peace.

I can ALMOST guarantee that this will not be the case. The families of people who die violent deaths think they will find that peace, but rarely do.

I do not begrudge them... I actually get it... but here is where justice has no place for human emotion. Emotions cloud our thinking and make us wish for things that are crazy... and at times... yes, smile at the death of another human being. It is socially inappropriate... but I get it. It truly is not black and white, it truly is not.

And I sincerely hope they find their peace... even if I doubt they will because that rarely happens. And that is the empty promise of the eye for an eye legal system.

This will move things though against the Death Penalty. Listen to the former warden who actually carried them... that is what we will need.

Thanks Warden for saying this too.

[seabeyond]

1. agree. nt

[a kennedy]

2. I still haven't found peace and my sister died of cancer a year ago....

so, I'm sure his death is NOT going to give they any peace either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. It rarely happens,

but it is so dang rare...

Peace...

When dad died we mostly had gone through the whole process... and I know I am blessed on that,

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

4. One of the witnesses reported that some members of the family smiled afterwards.

They obviously are very pleased with themselves. May they rot in hell.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Tonight they are satisfied, even happy.

Listen to the warden, he just repeated the same thing I did. The nightmares most likely will not stop... the what ifs will not stop... it's not tonight... but closure... chances are they won't get it. Even if they are smiling tonight. I don't have a black and white thinking about this... and it has to do with some of the customers I took care over the years, ranging from the child abuser all the way to rape victim.

[hlthe2b]

20. They wanted desperately for something to take their pain away...

They will suffer the hell of eventually finding out that nothing will do so and that they will feel duped by those who told them that vengeance would bring closure. Pity them. They can only be victims once again--this time from their own making.

[joeglow3]

29. Holy shit, are you kidding me???

May the rot in hell?

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Yeah they did

they think they got what they wanted. They are not monsters, Read the OP again. Serious.

Today they think they will finally be able to move on. This is the other sickness of the DP... the vicim's families are also held hostage in the HOPE of closure, and the promise of it. So at times people smile during executions...

They are victims too. And moving on... no, not really.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

37. Yep. That's how I feel. I'm not as Christlike as others. The possibility

that they smiled at killing an innocent man is preposterous to me!

Nothing you say can change my mind on this issue.

[jwirr]

31. Slowly, very slowly the doubts of his quilt will sink in and they will

then have their own quilt to live with the rest of their lives and their loved one will still be gone. This mans death will not bring their loved on back and they will recognize that soon.

[bluestateguy]

5. True, ask the 9/11 families

The 9/11 hijackers are dead. Osama is dead. Tens of thousands of Al Qaeda and Taliban footsoldiers are dead.

I'd be astonished if they feel "peace" now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. One or two does

:-)

[hlthe2b]

8. They deserve pity, understanding... not castigation.

They will likely come to regret their attitudes and convictions and realize, with horror, just how empty this promise of "justice" (disguised as vengeance) has left them. It is sad that they could not have come to that more enlightened state over the years. Pity them. Their failure to do so will bring them anything but peace. They remain victims. This time, of their own accord. :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yup, and it will be ten times as hard

if they ever decide to go after the actual perpetrator.

The warden made that point... and lord knows I have seen it.

[Worship Money]

12. I disagree with your earlier posts on this, but..

On this one, this was extremely well put and accurate. Completely agree.

[hlthe2b]

15. Considering I have been saying the same thing all night...

Perhaps you misread the earlier?

[Worship Money]

24. I feel like...

You applied what you were trying to say in the earlier posts in a better and more direct fashion here. Here, you identify that there was indeed a failure in judgment and that the family has failed to come to a reasonable, thought out judgment up to this point that would have more accurately contributed to the application of "justice" in this case.

It's not about castigating, or hating them. It's about considering the situation as is, and considering things that are being said that are deleterious and/or incorrect, regardless of who is saying it. Once again, not a zero sum game. We can sympathize and empathize with the family while still categorizing (correctly) their reaction as untrue and actively harmful.

I still disagree with your earlier posts and think your post in this thread is more accurate and cogent. That's it. Make or take from that what you will if anything. /

[Zax2me]

9. Funny how people know how/what the family feels.

She will find peace that her husbands murderer failed in his attempt to dodge his conviction and sentencing.
No longer does it matter how many people he played like a fiddle.
And for that, I'm happy for her and the family.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Listen to the Warden

who said the same about people not finding peace after executions... regardless of guilt or innocence.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

18. That is just sick....

get some help...

[pacalo]

27. You sound very sure that Troy was guilty when many worldwide recognize that evidence

proving he did the shooting was totally lacking -- except for the real shooter's testimony against Troy.

[Arugula Latte]

35. Funny how you act like you actually witnessed the murder.

You weren't there, and grave doubt has been cast on this case. Yet you are deaf and blind to all the evidence that raises not just a reasonable doubt, but a huge doubt.

[EOTE]

40. What evidence are you aware of against Troy Davis?

I've asked you this many times, but like a sad little coward, you've refused to respond. So now that you've been able to satisfy your blood lust, what have you got? Or are you just a psychopath that likes cheering for the deaths of others?

[kenfrequed]

45. It amazes me

That you take the person as guilty automatically when so many have so many questions about this case and the evidence seems shakey. No material evidence. 7 of 9 witnesses changed their statements many of whome were coerced into testifying against him in the first place.

Whatever the state of mind of the family we should not be executing people just so people can feel better. That is absolutely absurd.

[Hippo_Tron]

11. Agreed completely

If somebody killed my loved ones I'd probably want to torture them to death myself. Of course, I probably wouldn't feel any better after doing it. Nor does it mean that the justice system ought to act on the whims of my completely irrational feelings.

[WildEyedLiberal]

16. I don't judge them

They lost someone too. But killing Troy didn't bring him back. They were too close to this to see the pall of doubt hanging over it, and I can understand that they need to believe that the right man was executed, because otherwise, the man who killed their husband, father, and son is still out there free as a bird, and who could take that and stay sane?

I don't judge them, but I DO judge every magistrate between 1991 and now that turned their head when he asked them to LOOK at the doubt and spare his life. The blood is on their hands, not MacPhail's family's.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Oh it showed once again

why fallible humans should not use the death penalty...

:-)

I am pretty hard core about this... my ONLY exception and not because it brigs the millions of dead back, and even there I might make an exception... is in war crimes, like genocide. You know somebody like Hitler... or Pol Pot... but even then we need to be careful that it is not victor's revenge.

[RZM]

17. Well said. And classy to boot

Happy to rec this.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

19. One of my relatives was murdered by a drifter who pawned his tools for $45

At no point has the thought of a theatrical and ritualistic death suggested either euphoria or catharsis. The fucker died of hepatitis in a mental hospital in 2003 and I don't recall the news being greeted with anything other than an a collective "Oh..."

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I am sorry for your loss

:hug:

[joshcryer]

25. Did "the fucker" come with the spectacle? Pope? Former President? Human rights activists?

Hundreds of thousands of people?

No doubt the hell that the family in question has had to endure is the spectacle that surrounded the case. There are many many other cases that only get a blurb on the local news every now and again, and they're much more somber (recently a guy got life for killing a young woman and the family of the victim had no comment other than they felt justice was served, etc).

The family in this case hasn't had the opportunity to forget about it or move on because since 2007 it's been in their face.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. And the point is that chances are

they won't... not because they will be pursued... but because this atavistic ritual rarely bring peace. Even when there is zero press and the person ADMITS their guilt and are PROUD of it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

28. What does that have to do with a total personal investment in anothers death?

It was never about him, he was just a blurry silhouette on a security tape, another mumbling junkie you ignore walking down the street.

[DinahMoeHum]

23. That the MacPhail family will never really have peace after this. . .

will be their punishment. They wanted their pound of flesh from anybody, and got it; and that's all they'll ever get.

[EOTE]

39. 100% agree.

That was the way she was talking. Why, oh why can't I get my execution? What's that? I have to wait another few hours? But I wanted my death now! She was sickening.

[Rex]

30. People often confuse revenge with justice.

As was the case here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Yup, part of the American myth as well

[Distant Observer]

32. What is that accent the Mom has. It sounds Dutch

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. To be honest I got no clue

[EOTE]

38. I think they are depraved to an extent. At least McPhail's mom.

She certainly seemed bloodthirsty to me. Talking about how unfair it was to her that Davis' execution had been delayed. Talking about wanting peace as if her knowing that someone is dead will bring her that. I was absolutely sickened by her. She's evil in my opinion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Listen to what she told CNN after the execution

a nugget...

"The davis family is also suffering."
she is starting to realize this. It is the promise... a few who openly wish for it after the fact become anti death penalty because they feel betrayed.

[alsame]

52. After the McVeigh execution I saw an interview with a family

member of one of the OKC victims - she was a young woman and had witnessed the execution. She said that she didn't feel any better, she didn't feel the relief she expected. She started crying and it was clear that she now realized the pain wasn't going away just because McVeigh was dead.

I think the survivors who are most rabidly pro execution are the ones who have the most trouble afterwards, when they don't have the closure they long for. I hope all involved get some serious grief counseling - the MacPhails and the Davis family.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. And this is the cruelty of the practice

it creates a new set of victims... .the family of whoever was executed... and the original victims who hold on to this hope that it will really get better.

I realize that the most staunch of pro DP defenders who say it is for the victim... they mean well, they truly do... but in the end they victimize the victims twice.

Oh and trust me I understand the need for revenge, where this is coming from, hell at times I wanted to seek it... but in the end revenge does not help.

What people need to do is to learn how to survive and become survivors.

[kenfrequed]

41. Hmm...

It is more likely that the family of a fallen officer is unable to see the obvious truth that his fellow officers have let him down by catching the wrong damned guy.

[MuseRider]

42. You are correct.

I have seen this and heard that perhaps momentarily they felt like they had justice. Usually it lasts not very long. They either go on with their lives noticing that they still feel bad about the life of their loved one being gone, still miss them and wonder why it doesn't feel any different. Those who have open minds and hearts will have to live the rest of their lives realizing that their pound of flesh was just that. It did not change anything, in fact it hurts more now knowing they did this to someone else and someone else's family.

The story of the former warden was difficult to listen to. The pain was apparent even in his voice. I hope this is the beginning of the end to state sanctioned murder but I tend to agree with the Rude Pundit on this one. We are too far gone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. And for the Officer's mother, it took about an hour

It usually takes a little longer.

Her interview on CNN last night made me have a lump on my throat... that hard core realization...

[Harmony Blue]

47. +1

That is the truth. All humans feel empathy for the most part.

[MuseRider]

48. I missed that.

I need to go look for that thread.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1983277

[MuseRider]

50. Thank you so much.

I wish her peace, don't think she is going to find it now but I can wish her peace so she can understand why this is so wrong. Such a sad thing all around.

[malaise]

46. Well said

Rec

[TacoD]

51. I mostly just lurk but I want to say this was very well put, agree 100% - nt

[Odin2005]

53. I agree completely.

When my friend was raped I wanted to kill the monster who raped her. That is exactly why emotions need to be kept out of the courtroom.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Oh trust me, when we transported a girl

who was raped and stabbed, we wanted to kill the asshole! And we were not even close...