At One Time I Was Pro Death Penalty,...

[MarianJack]

...but not for nearly 20 years now.

I realized the barbarity of it for a number of reasons. The one I remember most is listening to some rightist dip co-worker expounding about how justice would be served by the occasional execution of an innocent person. He didn't go for the "Goddam Liberal" argument that it's better for 1000 guilty people to go free than for 1 innocent person to be put to death.

I pointed out to the jagoff that what he was describing was repression, not justice. His soft and pointy little head couldn't process this. The really frightening thing is that the number of people who believe this is growing. We saw them cheering little ricky perry's execution record. We heard them cheering the notion that the government should allow an uninsured man to die. These people have no comprehension of the double tragedy of the loss of an executed innocent person to their family and loved ones compounded by the guilty person's continued freedom to create more victims and more shattered families.

I can't fathom, and don't ever want to experience, what the Davis family is going through tonight and for the rest of her lives. I can only express my deepest condolences for them.

Today I am absolutely opposed to the death penalty. Yes, even for ted bundy, timothy mcveigh and the racist assholes who dragged James Byrd to death. As another poster stated in another thread, principle will be tested. That's life. Being against the death penalty doesn't make one "soft on crime". Do I have even the remotest sympathy for the aforementioned killers in this paragraph? HELL NO! Some, me included, may argue that life without parole may be harder. Ask the menendez brothers who, if I recall correctly, are serving their sentences in separate prisons and may NEVER see each other again and are living lives WITHOUT HOPE. This may quite well be harder.

Just my thoughts. I learned from a mistaken belief. Another poster in another thread tonight became the first person in 8+ years on this site to go to my ignore list for their ideologically pure belief that you can't be forgiven for 30+ year old mistakes. However, the vast majority of DU members are thoughtful and intelligent people. Thank you for reading.

PEACE!

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I was too, until my mother explained how screwed up the legal system is and that

innocence is no guarantee of being set free.

[MarianJack]

3. And THAT is Just...

...too damn scary!

PEACE!

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. Yes,it is. I was once a "person of interest" in a crime simply because

I lived in the neighborhood where it happened, and because I vaguely fit the description of a woman seen in the area. The police officer investigating the case had one person say, "Oh, that sounds like so and so" (me) and he got a picture of me from I don't know where to show to people.

Tell me how fragile, suggestible human memory isn't going to absorb that picture and insert me into the crime scene? I know how many cases are convicted on messed up eye witness accounts. My family was laughing at me, being _so_ upset over it when it was clear to them I had nothing to do with it, but I was scared for a while there. The officer told me that I was his only lead and that he would investigate vigorously. I told him I wished him luck in finding the true culprit.

That was a couple of years ago, and I haven't heard anything since. I hope that means I am off the hook!

[MarianJack]

22. Person Of Interest.

I always thought that was a rather notorious way of accusing someone without acusing them, kind od a law enforcement version of faux news' "Some people say" line of BS.

Sometimes the cops can be more interested in clearing their case load rather than in actually solving the crime.

Other than the fact that I was raised to respect womwn, one reason I never pressured a girl or woman for intimacy in my single days is that my mother explained that in that circumstance, you're guilty until proven innocent and then you're STILL guilty.

I hope you are off the hook. it sounded like you were the cop's chosen target.

PEACE!

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. I don't think "person of interest" even has any legal standing. It's just a phrase someone came up

with.

I felt a little bad for the cop not having anyone better to target, but mostly I was just worried for me. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Actually from stats

people are actually turning away from the DP... we are not yet the majority... but we are.

And executing innocent people will do to our modern day turn away from it, what botched hangings did to earlier Americans who also were horrified by it.

For the record, you will hear the pro DP folks get more and more indignant as more and more people turn away from it.

[MarianJack]

4. Just as the Civil Rights Movement...

...made bigots more loud and shrill. Gay rights too.

PEACE!

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Exactly

I was never for it, I grew up in another country Mexico considered bringing it back after a kid was kidnapped and tortured and torn to pieces.

It horrified the country... and yes that is a textbook of who you want to apply it to. So there was a tortured discussion. I remember talking to the AG at the time, he was a friend of the family, and he put it this way. "The cost to the national soul is too much to bear, and for one case a century that might deserve it, we are not willing to go there."

I asked him when I went down for my dad's funeral if his views have changed due to the war on drugs...

"this too shall pass." That was his answer,

[MarianJack]

8. WOW!

The cost to the national soul!

Thank you for posting that!

PEACE!

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. You welcome

I used to have interesting ethical discussions with him. I miss them actually.

[MarianJack]

21. Just One Thing To Say,...

:patriot:

[Kalidurga]

6. How different is a crowd that cheers death from

the murderers they so gleefully execute? I have never felt strongly that we should have a death penalty I think it is the easy way out for all involved, it is definitely easier on the guilty party. But, it is also easier for the system I believe to execute and be done with those who kill or commit other heinous crimes. I think it is difficult to see those that do violence a constant reminder of what they have done, what we are also capable of doing, and perhaps a reminder that we still have people that fall through the cracks in our system that lash out on even more vulnerable people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. That is the moral cost we pay as a society

it made my blood run cold... but that is the cost we pay.

[patrice]

19. Right! So the system kills for it's own motives, just like a murderer. nt

[Upton]

27. Really?

Here's a Gallup poll from last year showing 64% in favor the DP..http://www.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx

And in case you're thinking it's mostly just Republicans...a Field poll, also from 2010, with 63% of California Democrats in favor of keeping the death penalty..http://www.pe.com/localnews/stories/PE_News_Local_D_field22.1d2e5ab.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. It was higher

[patrice]

7. I think it would help if more people understood that once the trial ends, barring new physical

evidence, it's ONLY about the process from that point forward, not about the case for innocence or guilt.

About the process: were the rules followed, all check boxes checked, dotted lines signed, files in the required order, official formulas spoken etc. etc. etc. And there's immense pressure to assure that the process was all a-okay, because to admit anything else, even in the slightest degree, could call all previous and future executions into legal question, which would be budget breaking and, hence, the end of some people's careers.

After a verdict, it's about bureaucratic job descriptions that protect the system, not about right or wrong, not about a life, not about guilt or innocence.

I don't think many people understand this.

[MarianJack]

9. Compounding What you said...

...and making it even more scary is the fact that wealth is about the only guarantee of justice! BRRRR!

PEACE!

[PDJane]

12. I have never agreed with the death penalty.

It is costly, in money, in lives, and in the lives of the people who carry out the death penalty itself. It isn't a deterrent. The moral clarity is illusory. There's an incredibly heavy chance that it will kill an innocent who was 'different' or just plain railroaded. (The three M's brought this home to me a long time ago; David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin, and Donald Marshall. All were wrongly convicted, and all would have faced the death penalty. All of them received exoneration and awards of cash for their time spent behind bars. Add to that Simon Marshall, a mentally handicapped man who pled guilty to 6 rapes. A DNA test cleared him, and he was awarded 2.3 million; that cash is in the hands of his mother, who cares for him.)

There have been far too many miscarriages of justice for me to feel easy about anyone receiving the death penalty.

[MarianJack]

15. At One Time I Didn't Agree With You.

Today, I certainly do.

PEACE!

[shireen]

14. the best way to punish guilty murderers

is to let them live! They can contemplate actions and consequences in prison for the rest of their pathetic natural lives.

In Troy Davis' case, i don't know for sure if he was guilty. But there was enough information to cast serious doubts on his guilt. He deserved a very thorough investigation of his case and second trial with competent lawyers. That he was denied such fundamental rights is beyond horrific.

The state of Georgia murdered a man tonight.

[MarianJack]

16. It Certainly Seems That There Was...

...a great deal of reasonable doubt.

Even if he was guilty, he should have been given every possible chance.

The time for old west rope law is WAY too long PAST1

PEACE!

[patrice]

17. I'd have mandatory counseling in which, at minimum, they'd have to listen to

carefully designed descriptions of the harm they've done.

Not torture, no threats, no ugliness, just carefully presented facts.

[MarianJack]

24. About 10 Years ago I saw 2 separate stories...

...on TV "news magazines" showing programs similar to that. One dealt with convicted rapists in Vermont. The other was about family mambers of victims meeting the deathrow inmates who'd murdered their loved ones. I don't remember tha state in the second story, though. Again, it was 10+ years ago.

You present a good idea. Thank you.

PEACE!

[patrice]

26. I like the possibility of the victim being allowed a victory in rising above the offender & giving

them something precious that they themselves were denied by the very people whom they now help, with assistance from their families and the state, while the offender makes restitution to ALL victims by working at somekind of decent work that pays into a national or state fund.

[MarianJack]

28. Sounds Good, patrice.

Thank You for your feedback?

PEACE!

[Kennah]

18. I used to think it was necessary--ultimate punishment for ultimate crimes

Two things in particular pushed me away from the DP forever. Read them if you're still OK with the DP.

Ultimate Punishment
http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/031242373X

Trial By Fire
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann

[MarianJack]

20. Thank You For the Links!

:patriot:

PEACE!

[Shagbark Hickory]

25. The man in your avatar gave bin laden the death penalty. n/t

[MarianJack]

30. By that logic...

...my father gave the death penalty to German Soldiers from his bomber in World War II.

The bin laden operation was a military action. Troy Davis a miscarage of justice.

I see a big difference. Maybe you don't. That's why we have a First Amendment.

PEACE!

[Ben Gay]

32. Troy Davis was basically a useless person who would not likely have cured cancer.

The world is not worse off for the loss of a common thug. Sorry.

[MarianJack]

33. So, the likelyhood of his innocence is irrelevent?

The exact kind of thinking that my rightist former co-worker would applaud.

[Shagbark Hickory]

35. So which one is it? You "see a big difference" or you "absolutely oppose" (OP)

You said in your OP that you ABSOLUTELY oppose the death penalty.
You went on to say
"Yes, even for ted bundy, timothy mcveigh and the racist assholes who dragged James Byrd to death."

So if you see a big difference, then you don't "absolutely" oppose the dealth penalty.
You may oppose the death penalty only in state courts as it would appear. Of course Bin Laden never got the opportunity to be tried in a US court.

[MarianJack]

38. HMMM...

...domestic crimes vs. an act of war.

Nope, no difference there. :crazy:

[Ben Gay]

31. The menendez brothers may be suffering more than death, and you think that's better?

I see.

[MarianJack]

34. If You check your dictionary...

...you'd likely see that the definitions of "Harder" and "Better" are quite different.

I cited life without possibility of parole as the most often cited and proposed alternative to the death penalty.

Do you see that?

[aikoaiko]

36. I'm just not there yet., but I have never been as troubled with the DP as I am now.

As much as I opposed the execution of Troy Davis because of reasonable doubt of guilt, I just can't give away that option when we are certain of when someone committed a heinous crime.

[MarianJack]

40. I've come to believe that life without parole...

...is a very aversive but not cruel, punishment.

PEACE!

[Bunny]

37. I used to be for it, too.

You couldn't fry those bastards fast enough for me. But I've changed my mind, due mostly to the sheer numbers of people who are being exhonerated through DNA. When you look at it, you KNOW we've almost certainly executed innocent people. Who needs that on their conscience? Not in my name. Keep them locked up for life, but no death penalty.

[MarianJack]

39. I used to think that "Hang 'em all"...

...was the answer for everything from mass murder to jay walking.

Way too much inequity and way too much reasonable doubt for my tastes.

PEACE!