I Was Wrong

[LadyHawkAZ]

This seems to be the best place to say this.

I've always been a supporter of capital punishment. I have always believed that there are some individuals, and some crimes, that can be effectively punished in no other way. I still believe that, but I can no longer support capital punishment.

There is no way to set a concrete standard of application, and no way to prevent people from bringing their opinions and prejudices into the judicial system. I have my doubts that those two variables can ever be removed from the system completely, and as long as they are present the death penalty cannot be considered a just punishment. Do I think we killed an innocent man last night? I don't know. I *do* know we killed one with a trainload of reasonable doubt. That should have been enough to stop it, and it wasn't.

I have spent much time insisting that the death penalty is necessary in spite of its flaws. I was 100% wrong about that. I still think there are people who deserve it, but it isn't worth the risk to those who don't. I am disgusted by what happened to Davis, and ashamed to have supported it in any way, however indirect. So this morning, there is one less person supporting the death penalty.

Just something I had to say. Thanks for listening.

[Turbineguy]

1. I'm pretty sure

you are not alone here.

But perhaps there's another way of looking at it:

Maybe some deserve to die for the heinous acts they've committed. But the question is, do they deserve to be killed by somebody like you? Maybe they are beneath that. Maybe they deserve to be killed by some similarly minded low-life as they are.

But yes, on an upward trajectory toward a proper civilized society, the death penalty should be abolished.

[SharonAnn]

29. Yes, I once thought that Capital Punishment was appropriate in some cases.

Life, and I hope wisdom, have made me realize that human systems are not infallible and are often compromised. Therefore, we cannot morally act as if perfect knowledge were available and killing somebody is appropriate without question.

It took a while for me to work through these issues, but eventually I got it.

I, too, was wrong.

[CTyankee]

82. The closest I have come to thinking it appropriate has been with the home invasion

case here in Connecticut. Two men invaded the home of Dr. Richard Pettit, beat him with a baseball bat, raped and strangled his wife, molested his twelve year old daughter, tied her and her 18 year old sister to their beds, covered them with gasoline and set the entire house on fire.

Dr. Pettit has attended every day of the two men's trials to date. One was convicted last year and sentenced to death. The other one is on trial now. Dr. Pettit and his family and wife's family have been strongly opposed to the CT legislature proposed outlaw of the death penalty. The proposal failed, largely because public sympathy was with the Pettit family.

The second trial is underway in my city, New Haven. You can imagine what the news every night brings. The images and the testimony are hard to take. I can understand why people want these murderers dead.

But I do not believe that such acts of barbarism are deterrents to such crimes. Obviously, that didn't work in this case. Pettit, a devout Methodist, has called the death penalty "justice" in his family's case. I think he truly believes it.

The problem arises when you confront the evil that has happened to Troy Davis and so many others like him. I don't think Dr. Pettit is able to understand the arguments against the death penalty. He has been permanently damaged as a result of what happened. He cannot practice medicine and needs medication on a daily basis.

I believe that fear and a strong urge for revenge (and sympathy for the victims) drives much of this.
I hope we get a repeal of the death penalty in CT so we don't have our own version of what happened in Davis's case. But in the current atmosphere, you can understand why that won't happen too soon.

[closeupready]

2. Thank you.

K&R

[EOTE]

3. Thanks for sharing.

It can be tough to have a strictly anti-DP stance, especially when there are so many horrible people who really seem to deserve it. But, as you note, no "concrete standard of application", that's shown extremely well by comparing how frequently the death penalty is applied when the victim is white and the defendant is black compared to when it's the other way around. If the DP could be applied far more perfectly, I might support it in very rare cases. As I don't think it's possible to fix the death penalty, I can never support it.

[JuniperLea]

4. This is good to hear...

I hope there are more just like you out there.

I really wish that people realized that we have no right to take the life of another. Killing is never a good idea and should be avoided at all cost and in all circumstance. We are one of very few countries who still practice this barbaric ritual. We should have evolved beyond this by now.

[NRaleighLiberal]

5. Thank you. Full disclosure - last night changed my mind as well n/t.

[Ship of Fools]

6. Definitely not!

A sore spot between me and my slowly evolving, life-long Repub husband (as well as abortion rights) ... He could never understand the premise (the way I view it) that if there is even the slightest chance of executing an innocent person, the whole system has to go. That's my take -- as well as a few others ...

[Ship of Fools]

7. ooops -- this was supposed to reply to #1.

[Poll_Blind]

8. One of the great things about DU is that you get exposed to a broad enough spectrum of...

...opinions and a huge enough number of scenarios that you wind up really refining what you believe and why. And sometimes that involves changing your mind on a topic.

:toast:

PB

[Eric J in MN]

9. Officials like Justice Antonin Scalia don't care about evidence of innocence...

...once there is a conviction.

We don't have a system which requires new trials when there is significant evidence of innocence after a conviction.

The government is killing people under a rotten system.

[ceile]

10. Thank you for sharing. n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

11. "I still think there are people who deserve it, but it isn't worth the risk"

I agree completely.

I would add that while some people deserve to die, I'm not sure that we-the-people deserve to become killers just to make that happen.

We should drop the death penalty for OUR sakes as well as to protect the falsely-convicted.

[aikoaiko]

12. Almost there myself.

[aikoaiko]

42. Not there "almost there" anymore. Been accused of bloodlust and sanctioning murder...

... here on DU and I'm backing away from their anti-DP stance.

[reggie the dog]

13. great to hear, i had a similar change of thought myself about 10 years

ago when we found out that many on death row in illinois were indeed innocent....

[joeglow3]

14. I consider a lifetime in jail worse punishment

Sadly, in many cases, we treat our animals better than fellow human beings.

[defendandprotect]

32. Agree -- and its cheaper -- !!

[kenfrequed]

57. Meh

Much of life is endurable, death is not. I would prefer prison to death even if it looked as though I might never be released. There is always the possibility for hope and the great injustice of imprisonment is less than the great injustice of execution. One of them is reversible. The other not.

[Pacifist Patriot]

59. I do jail visitation...

I'd far and away prefer death to a lifetime of imprisonment.

[kenfrequed]

67. I'm sorry

But that argument actually ends up being a "compassionate" rationalization for institutionalized murder. I just cannot accept that. Doing away with the death penalty is a step and an absolutely necessary one. Another would be to do away with imprisonment for nonviolent offences. There is no reason for it. Another step would be attention paid to rehabilitation and reeducation to prevent future offences.

[Pacifist Patriot]

68. Oh no, no, no. Please do not misunderstand me.

I am 100% against the death penalty with every cell in my body. I've preached against it (quite literally) on a number of occasions.

I'm simply stating a personal observation that death would be preferable to me than life imprisonment. A life sentence is not a "letting the criminal off easy" as some proponents of the death penalty seem to think it is.

[kenfrequed]

78. Sorry,

At this time I'm just concerned about any argument that might be used to prop up the pro-death penalty side. I have actually seen some posters on DU that seemed happy or satisfied with this conclusion so my hackles are still up,

[Uncle Joe]

79. That might be the case if you were guilty but what if you were innocent, would you feel the same?

If you were innocent and sentenced to life, you would know that you could fight for, possibly be vindicated someday and released from prison, on the other hand, if you're executed there would be no going back and the guilty party would be more likely to get off scott free.

"I'm simply stating a personal observation that death would be preferable to me than life imprisonment. A life sentence is not a "letting the criminal off easy" as some proponents of the death penalty seem to think it is."

[Pacifist Patriot]

84. Fair enough. I'm presuming guilt I suppose.

[ScreamingMeemie]

81. As one who, at times, has found life rather unendurable...I have to disagree

with you. What is truth for you, in this case, is not for others.

[RevStPatrick]

15. I don't think the state should put its citizens to death.

And from what I'm starting to see in the twitter/blogshere, a company called Correct Health may have been subcontracted to do the deed. Privatizing executions? Can you say slippery slope? Particularly since the owner of Correct Health has apparently been dealing with some sort of corruption charges?

The idea of prisons and executions for profit is going to give me nightmares tonight. Now at this point, as far as I can see, it's only rumors, I haven't seen anything concrete about this. Time will tell.

All that being said, again, I don't think the state should take the lives of its citizens under any circumstances. However, I do think that maybe some members of the human race have done things that are so terrible, that they don't deserve to breathe oxygen anymore. I would be open to the most heinous among us given a choice - Spend the rest of your natural life in a 9x9 prison cell for 23 and a half hours a day, eating the same food day after day, with nobody to talk to... you know, punishment. Or take this pill and drift away.

State-sponsored suicide is just a little less abhorrent to me...

[FiveGoodMen]

17. Agreed on all points.

[Bluerthanblue]

16. thank YOU for speaking-

and for being willing to question a long held perspective.

Not everyone is willing or capable of doing that-

[TheKentuckian]

18. That is the post of a thoughtful soul

[grntuscarora]

19. Often on DU

I'm struck by a post that expresses so well what I'm feeling. Thank you for articulating your thoughts, and sharing them....

[louslobbs]

20. Excellent Post

Lou

[frogmarch]

21. I'm there now too.

Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

[ClayZ]

22. That is where I stand, too!

K and R

State by state, we should change it!

[DeSwiss]

23. Thank you for your honesty, it's refreshing in these days and times. And welcome to the club.

One can easily understand how so many at one time came to believe in retribution and capital punishment given the lies we've been told about life since birth. Breaking from the herd-think of such a negative mindset, is proof of our continuing evolution and is to be celebrated in the highest. It means that there is still hope for us.

And yet when one realizes that we are a country whose founders were mainly slave-owners demanding to be set free, it's not too difficult to see how we could likewise believe that by executing its citizens a country can guarantee life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

- While also denying it......

DeSwiss

[defendandprotect]

33. Remember that the Supreme Court overturned it once -- and RW brought it back ...

at huge cost to taxpayers -- from state to state millions and millions of dollars

to do it -- !!

RW has to surround us with violence -- it's the only way they can rise -- !!

Every bit of violence helps them --

[Enthusiast]

43. Without cruelty

and violence the right wing can not survive. This is lost on many.

[defendandprotect]

50. One of the things that has so concerned me ....

about the T-baggers is that I think they are intended to create a more

aggressive and violent political arena --

they certainly did damage via the town meetings --

and the incident where some were spitting on members of Congress --

Doubt corporate-press shows any of that any more?


Just noticed also that Fox News audience was booing a gay soldier?

The RW thugs are feeling emboldened -- !!



:hi: :(

[Enthusiast]

88. "The RW thugs are feeling emboldened"

Just like the brown shirts.

[mac56]

24. Thank you.

nm

[Orrex]

25. A truly excellent post

Even insofar as it's hard to change any strongly held opinion, it seems that one's support of capital punishment is particularly hard to reexamine.


Bravo to you for having the courage to scrutinize your beliefs.

[JDPriestly]

26. I oppose the death penalty because I do not want to ask anyone

to put someone to death. I don't think I have the right to ask that of anyone.

[defendandprotect]

34. +1000% --

[AllyCat]

27. Well said. I don't believe people deserve it, but your argument is valid.

Thanks for putting this out there.

[Paka]

28. I too have mixed feelings.

My cousin was one of the first to be killed by Ted Bundy, a man who bragged about how many he killed, showed no remorse and thumbed his nose at the whole justice system. If anyone deserved to die he was one. But as you point out, is it worth the risk to those who don't? Is it worth the loss of our internal moral compass? The law of the land says murder is a crime and then the land itself turns around and commits that crime. The stain on our soul is indelible.

[Shining Jack]

30. K&R n/t

[defendandprotect]

31. I'm not familiar with the Troy case -- enough for me to know that capital punishment is wrong #1 ...

and glad you've moved away from your prior position ---

[lonestarnot]

35. Yeah this thread!

:applause:

[pansypoo53219]

36. death is easy.

nt

[harmonicon]

37. I was wrong too.

There was a time when I thought it was ok. When listening to the Supreme Court transcripts about the death penalty a few years ago (when was that? 5 or 10 years ago?), I become physically sick, threw up, and had to turn the radio off. That's when I knew I no longer had any doubts - the death penalty was always wrong. Changing your positions - despite what some would have us believe - is no sign of weakness.

[ConnorMarc]

38. Dit and toe!

Ditto, ditto, ditto.

I too, believe that some crimes warrant death, however, they currently get it wrong too often, so it should be abolished.

[WillyT]

39. Most Excellent Post !!! - K & R !!!

:applause::applause::applause:

:kick:

:hi:

[AtheistCrusader]

40. I came to the same conclusion about 3 years ago.

You're in good company. It SOUNDS like it could be valid and just, but one only need see the insane release rate of people who were not only convicted for life, but people who were actually on death row, later exonerated. Even people who had signed confessions, later exonerated.

It's staggering.

[Enthusiast]

41. Congratulations

for expanding your understanding of the death penalty issue. Few, it seems. make this transition. Empathy is in short supply as of late.

[dogmoma56]

44. the death penalty is a promice for blood sacrifice for votes by politicians if elected

[micraphone]

45. You have summed it up..

Why every other 1st world country has abandoned state (us) murder.

[Firebrand Gary]

46. Thank you for sharing this. You are not the only one.

[BlueMTexpat]

47. Like many who have posted here, I have opposed the death penalty

in principle, while believing that there are some whose behavior has been so outside the norm that I did not at all regret their passing - sort of like having one less contagion out there because there are, unfortunately, some in our society who are so sick that they admire and emulate the deeds of such people. Still, I don't believe that the death penalty serves as a deterrent to such people. Either they are too sick already or believe that they will never be caught anyway. If anything, a death penalty seems to make others believe that if they are going to get the death penalty for killing one person, they might just as well be "hung for a sheep as for a lamb" and then their behavior knows no bounds whatsoever.

Having lived abroad for many years and observed that in societies where the death penalty has been abolished, there have been also concurrent and concrete efforts at prisoner rehabilitation generally. Such efforts seem actually to strengthen these societies and make them the "kinder, gentler" societies that we should all aspire to, but that too many (primarily Republicans) seem only to pay lip service to.

For many of the same reasons that you and others here have articulated so well, my fence-sitting position on the DP has also evolved over these past years. There should be NO State-enforced death penalty - anywhere, ever - in any society that considers itself to be civilized or law-based, IMO.

Thank you for your post.

[tclambert]

48. We have a very, very good criminal justice system. Some estimate convictions are 98% correct.

98% is an "A." Yet, there's that 2% incorrect. And some estimate as high as an 8% error rate. We've heard stories of convicted prisoners freed after 18 years because new evidence, such as DNA, PROVED them innocent. People on Death Row have been exonerated and released. You can't fully make up for 18 years of wrongful imprisonment. But at least you can try. With the death penalty, there comes a point where you cannot attempt a remedy.

What I keep hoping for, and dreading, is a clear cut case of someone proving an executed convict was actually innocent. If DNA evidence proves one innocent person was executed, how can the criminal justice system live with that?

[wellst0nev0ter]

63. Jesse Tafero

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Tafero

[tclambert]

89. Thanks for the link and the name.

I saw the play on HBO that included his story. I couldn't remember the names Jacobs and Tafero, though. Susan Sarandon played Jacobs, who was released. I remember one of the other five who were exonerated and released from death row was a guy videotaped playing in a league basketball game at the time of the killing.

[Maraya1969]

49. I have not believed in the death penalty for a long time. I watched a special

about a young girl who was obviously mentally challenged and what her family went through every time one of her death dates would come up. It was barbaric. To see her mother go through the death of her child over and over again, (especially when her mother did nothing wrong) was horrific. I think the family and friends suffer more than the person does and they have committed nothing.

I also read a study once on killers and it basically asked the question what causes one person to go through on a feeling like, "I want to kill that person" and another to just feel it, ("I want to kill that person"), and then hamper it down and not do it. They found that in each adolescent that had killed someone there was a mental illness and a physical defect in the brain. There was a lesion or other type of physical deformity that caused the brain to brain to malfunction.

I think there are plenty of psychiatric attributes that can be traced back to psychical abnormalities. So who gets punished for this?

[NNN0LHI]

51. You have a trait that many people don't have

You possess better than average critical thinking skills.

Don

[veness]

52. May losing Troy disgust many as it did you...

...and awaken them to your same realizations. Perhaps then his unfair death will not have been in vain after all.

Thank you for writing this.

[LittleGirl]

53. I still support it for some cases

And they have to be cases where there is 'no doubt'. Maybe you'll remember this case here in Indiana?

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/matheney985.htm
The link has the story of Alan Metheney who killed his ex wife Lisa Bianco, in broad daylight, in front of his neighbors and daughters. There was no doubt about who committed that murder as Lisa laid in the middle of the street in front of her own home that she had run out of.

For me, I can defend the death penalty for cases like this. I don't believe in capital punishment unless it is witnessed by others and there is no doubt about who the murderer was. Another example would be Gabby Gifford's shooter. No doubt about him being the shooter and even if he is insane, I still believe he should pay the ultimate price for his crime.

[ZombieHorde]

54. What benefit would come from killing that guy?

Doing so costs the state more money, and seems to lead to Troy Davis situations.

If we are going to spend lots money, and potential place innocent people in a deadly situation, shouldn't there be some benefit?

[Upton]

60. To rid society of an obvious murderer..

and putting him in prison for life isn't good enough...no doubters, such as the one described in the post you responded to, once convicted and the appeals process exhausted, shouldn't be allowed to draw another breath..

[LittleGirl]

85. exactly.

I was disgusted that they waited over 10 yrs to give him the 'chair'.

And if any other death row inmate doesn't have the kind of proof this case had, then I would not be supportive of them being put to death. The way this guy carried out that murder in broad daylight makes me think he got what he deserved. Otherwise, I say let them rot in prison the rest of their life especially now that DNA can prove innocence and guilt in some cases.

[ZombieHorde]

87. What benefit does our society receive from killing these murderers?

Why spend the extra resources on them?

[LittleGirl]

90. this is how I see it

He scarred his daughters for life. How could they ever forget that their father beat their mother to death right in front of them? For the rest of their life, they have to suppress the image of their father killing their mother. I don't know, but to take his life was some kind of justice for what he did to all of them.

This is a 'free' country. You can disagree with me.

[ZombieHorde]

86. Why does his death make our society better?

I don't understand the benefit. Why isn't prison good enough?

[WhiteTara]

55. Glad you came to this realization! Troy's death

wasn't completely in vain.

[Lochloosa]

56. Another way to look at it: Murder is murder be it a lunatic or the State.

Cloaking it behind the courts and the will of the people does not change that fact.

[steve2470]

58. I admire you for your courage and honesty

We need more people like you. Thanks for this thread.

[Surya Gayatri]

61. Well reasoned, Lady...

The US is the only western nation which still practices capital punishment--and in such a cruel, arbitrary and racist manner that it is totally indefensible. SG

[duhneece]

62. 'you did then what you knew to do...when you knew better, you did better'

paraphrasing Maya Angelou.

Bless you.

[millijac]

64. I'm with you

I've always sort of been on the fence. In clear cut cases of absolute guilt here the crime is heinous enough, I supported it.

No longer. It must end and it must end now.

Thanks you for posting this.

[GETPLANING]

65. American justice is about winning, not justice

This is why I oppose capital punishment.

[Beavker]

66. Ditto. Me too.

Like the GOP's lumping of all 99'ers as slackers, Welfare recipients as leeches, Muslims as Terrorists, and people without Health Insurance as...well...deserving to die in the streets because they 'chose' not to have insurance into a single category, you run the risk of literally killing someone that is actually innocent. That shouldn't happen, and if it does it constitutes letting the others that actually do fit the bill slide.

Don't throw the lazy, leeching, mooching, evil babies out with the bathwater.

[Honeycombe8]

69. I haven't quite got to where you are, but I am mulling this over and getting there.

I have always been a supporter of capital punishment in some instances, for particularly heinous crimes, esp those involving children or brutal crimes against strangers (the two men who brutally tortured and killed a mother and her daughter for no reason...one of them was just sented to death, I believe).

But in view of the Troy Davis thing (and I still maintain he MIGHT be guilty...but there was enough doubt raised that I thought he might very well NOT be guilty, and that something with his trial went very wrong), I am mulling over this position. I haven't quite gotten to where I don't think it's appropriate in some instances, but I am grappling with...it's not MY decision or YOUR decision, so how can we control WHEN it is applied?

So....I'm still struggling with this, and am considering that it is probably best not to execute people, since we can't control when it is applied, or things like that.

[Harmony Blue]

70. It take monumental courage to admit that you have changed

your stance on a pivotal issue like this. :dem:

[Iggo]

71. "...it isn't worth the risk to those who don't (deserve it)..."

Exactly.

[Doctor_J]

72. Execution is sometimes warranted; CP as a policy is abhorent

when George Ryan pulled the plug on CP in Illinois, half of the inmates on death row were innocent. When George Bush declared that he was certain that all 115 texans he'd put to death were guilty, he was as usual lying and moronic at the same time. There is absolutely no way that 1 of those 115 wasn't put to death for a crime he/she hadn't committed. That for me is enough to declare CP out of bounds.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

74. Welcome to the right side of the issue.

Here's one resource that opened my eyes: http://www.innocenceproject.org/

[caseymoz]

75. I think you might be right.

I always thought it should be restricted to serial killers of children, but I'm reconsidering, too. I'm now thinking that there's a fundamental difference between the mental process involved in killing someone and incarcerating them. If you consider killing somebody, it seems a different part of the brain has to be engage, one that taps into barbarism and brings you out of reason. A jury, a judge or a review board considering the death penalty has to dehumanize the person they are thinking of killing, and it puts them in a fundamentally different frame of mind than one that's supposed to think rationally. When capital punishment is on the table, it seems they think of the life at stake as being the lesser consideration as compared to other things, like revenge for the family.

There was something creepy about the Davis decision. It was almost like everybody could see it was wrong except those who were making it.

[Uncle Joe]

76. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, LadyHawkAZ.:thumbsup:

[immoderate]

77. Way. Many paths to this conclusion. Yours makes much sense.

I could say that killing them is doing them a favor, and I'd rather they live long and miserable lives. But I'd rather not think about them. Take them away.

The irreversibility is certainly important. Mistakes will be made.

My reason is that we should not set up any circumstance where killing is considered the right thing to do. Bad medicine.


--imm

[ismnotwasm]

80. It's a hard road to get to that point I think

I believe there are human monsters, ones that have no 'redeeming value' whatsoever. Death is probably the best thing for these people, and in some way a relief for them. Maybe even a kind of reward in some cases.

In spite of this belief, I can't, and won't, support state supported murder. It is, evidently, quite easy to kill the innocent and let the heniously guilty live. There is no coherent system for justice in the death penalty, only a kind of lame revenge.

[Jackpine Radical]

83. Thank you for your thoughtful approach to this issue.

As for me, I long ago decided that the question is not whether or not a given offender "deserves" to be put to death, but how much harm is done to society by providing this example of responding to horrendous violence with more violence. In the last analysis, society is really just a large group of people who have assente to playing out their lives within a set of mutually agreed-upon rules. While any society thus construed has a right to protect itself from outlaws, and perhaps to punish its transgressive members, I don't think that the common mass has any more right to kill someone than any individual member does. Just as a person has the right to kill in self-defense, so does a society--BUT--it is not necessary for a modern society to kill an already incarcerated individual in order to protect itself. Societies that perpetrate violence also model violence, just as a parent who spanks a child to punish aggressive behavior models aggression for the child.