the bigotry toward southern states

[seabeyond]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states

Red states
Utah
Idaho
Wyoming
Nebraska
Alaska
Oklahoma
Kansas
North Dakota
Alabama
Texas
Mississippi
South Dakota
South Carolina
Montana
Kentucky
Indiana
Georgia
North Carolina
Tennessee
Arizona
Louisiana
Virginia


Purple states
Nevada
West Virginia
Arkansas
Colorado
Florida
Missouri
Ohio

List of current Republican governors
Current Governor

Robert J. Bentley
Alabama
2011

2014

Sean Parnell
Alaska
2009

2014



Jan Brewer
Arizona
2009

2014



Rick Scott
Florida
2011

2014



Nathan Deal
Georgia
2011

2014



Butch Otter
Idaho
2007

2014



Terry Branstad
Iowa
2011

2014



Mitch Daniels
Indiana
2005

2012 (term limits)



Sam Brownback
Kansas
2011

2014



Bobby Jindal
Louisiana
2008

2011



Paul LePage
Maine
2011

2014



Rick Snyder
Michigan
2011

2014



Haley Barbour
Mississippi
2004

2011 (term limits)



Dave Heineman
Nebraska
2005

2014



Brian Sandoval
Nevada
2011

2014



Chris Christie
New Jersey
2010

2013



Susana Martinez
New Mexico
2011

2014



Jack Dalrymple
North Dakota
2010

2012



John Kasich
Ohio
2011

2014



Mary Fallin
Oklahoma
2011

2014



Tom Corbett
Pennsylvania
2011

2014



Nikki Haley
South Carolina
2011

2014



Dennis Daugaard
South Dakota
2011

2015



Bill Haslam
Tennessee
2011

2014



Rick Perry
Texas
2000

2014



Gary Herbert
Utah
2009

2012



Bob McDonnell
Virginia
2010

2013 (Term limits)



Scott Walker
Wisconsin
2011

2014



Matt Mead
Wyoming
2011

2014



granted, i don't believe the majority of du would embrace declaring that it is the south, and only the south. throwing the south away would solve democrats problems. but i have to wonder when i hear all the blame being foisted on the south, how a reasonable person, with a bet of common sense can ignore all the other states that vote red.

[pintobean]

1. Rec

Edit: That thread has been locked.

[Hosnon]

2. It's a convenient "go-to" for simple-minded people.

Like blaming Jews for economic woes, Blacks for crime, gays for HIV, etc.

[izquierdista]

3. The real, underlying problem is religion

Why are Utah and Idaho at the top of your list? The Mormon religion. The church holds sway over how people vote there.

Kansas, Nebraska, and Oklahoma? Again, religion. This time fundamentalist Baptists. Their churchgoers hold the key to the vote.

We're never going to get people to vote for their own interests after some preacher has convinced them how God wants them to vote.

[seabeyond]

5. calif, reagan and arnie? nt

[izquierdista]

27. The Church of Hollywood

Oh, he's a movie star! I loved him in Bonzo II, Return of the Machines! He's sure to get my vote!

[Supersedeas]

159. Zing!

[CrispyQ]

22. Yes.

The "We Fool You" tier is critical to the entire system.

[Union Scribe]

151. So, how do you explain this?

http://www.blackdemographics.com/religion.html

"According to a report by The Brookings Institution in 1999, Black Americans are in many ways "the most religious people in America." It cited that 82% of Blacks (vs. 67% of Whites) are Church members. It also found that 82 % of Blacks (vs. 55% of Whites) say that religion is "very important in their life". And when asked if religion "can answer all or most of today's problems" 86% of Blacks (vs. 60% of Whites) say yes."

And yet the black community votes overwhelmingly for Democrats. Perhaps you should narrow your "problem" from religion to RW versions of it.

[izquierdista]

163. And they vote as a block too, don't they?

It is just that in their case, their churches have been supportive of their interests instead of aligned against them. That, I can understand, but white churches that preach the Sermon on the Mount AND the prosperity gospel at the same time, that requires some cognitive dissonance.

[Union Scribe]

167. Quite right.

At least it's dissonance until they opt for the prosperity gospel and stuff the social gospel (I think that's what it's called, focusing on the needs of people) in the coat room.

I'd like to think that many minority churches, understanding struggle, have held onto that social gospel. Not sure if that affects their political beliefs or vice versa, though.

[izquierdista]

169. You should check into that more

Religion has held sway over politics for a long time. Church leaders always wanted to pick the king, or tsar, or emperor. That's why the little prince was carefully schooled by monks and his coronation was the church saying that God has installed this monarch.

In our secular United States, Maryland was set aside to be the Catholic colony, and other colonies had their dominant religion. Al Smith and John Kennedy were asked about their political beliefs and had to go to lengths to convince the voters that their religious beliefs weren't going to affect their political beliefs.

Religion just doesn't seem happy unless they are preaching their views to large crowds of people; which is exactly what politics is. When uninformed people wonder who to vote for, clergymen are right there telling them who is the most moral of the candidates (according to their own dogmas).

[racaulk]

4. K&R!

Thank you for this. :thumbsup:

[bluestateguy]

6. I'm all for leaving Virginia, North Carolina and Florida alone

I'll let you figure out why.

[AverageJoe90]

158. well.....

Virginia has the D.C. suburbs, North Carolina has Asheville, and Florida has Miami..........am I right? :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. Forgive me, but I don't understand WTF all the numbers mean.

If you are going to throw up data, at least give a hint as to what the data IS.

[seabeyond]

9. the numbers are irrelevent to my OP. it is a list of red states. that is the only point

here is the site at the bottom of this page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states

[B Calm]

124. but. . . Indiana voted for Obama

[seabeyond]

10. better? took the numbers out to lessen any kind of confusion. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Thanks - I had thought the pont was the numbers, not the list.

That clafifies it.

[Cirque du So-What]

8. I'll second that

As I consider both bigotry toward southerners in general and apathy concerning GOTV in southern states, I always express my disdain for those overwrought responses whenever I encounter them.

Another thing to consider: some blue states are losing population (and therefore electoral votes). Where are these people going? By and large, to 'red' states in the southern half of the US. Those so willing to write off the 'red' states as washouts are wasting a wonderful opportunity - and I question the motive of 'Typhoid Mary' emulators who seem hellbent on 'infecting' the rest of us with malaise (NOT the DU member, BTW :hi:) and lethargy by telling us that trying to organize in the south is a lost cause.

To those who persist in making snarky remarks about southerners in general: try a simple exercise in which you substitute African Americans, GLBT individuals, Jews, etc., for southerners - or people from any part of Appalachia, and that could be expanded to include people who live in rural areas for that matter, who some think are 'fair game' for their cruel comments - and see how your snark sounds THEN. Be aware that I alert on this shit whenever I encounter it and encourage others to not turn a blind eye toward this form of bigotry when they encounter it.

[Shagbark Hickory]

11. I'm tired of all the anti-south rhetoric like the south is the only place with rightwingers.

Funny how most of the people posting that stuff don't have their profile turned on or they don't post their location. People might find out they're in a red state. Oooh.

[Hosnon]

12. It's like a seasonal rash around here or something. Flairs up on occasion. nt.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

13. Native Texan here.

No we are not all idiots. But in the part I live in, in the country, MOST of the white folks, not all, hate Black and Brown people because it makes them feel superior, I guess.

Even a librarian that ranted about how she called her cable provider and yelled at the because they had "them Spanish programs" and she didn't like that they had a Mexican food aisle at Wallyworld.

I told her that I WISHED I was fluent in Spanish. I thought, "This woman grew up in Texas, probably, and has never had a taco or a burrito?"

I guess I should have asked her if she hated everyone.

In the cities they are far more liberal.

[Shagbark Hickory]

16. There are bigots in every corner of the country. My elders from ROCHESTER NY are like Archie Bunker.

And some Yankees have gained notoriety for their intolerance of the Spanish language. Such as Geno from Geno's (Cheese) Steaks in Philly. I don't know of a single restaurant down here that requires you to speak English in order to be a patron.

It's pretty clear you have begun believing where you live is vastly different than the rest of the country and that's precisely why I have a problem with this. It's a form of sterotype and I'm not having any of it.

[seabeyond]

17. nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

19. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion.

So long as it's not a stereotype about my neighbors or where I live, I promise my feelings won't be hurt.

[seabeyond]

21. bah hahah, so sweet and cute. when have i ever been afraid to express

lol

i was merely being redundant. and that.... ew.

[GoneOffShore]

165. If you spoke Italian to place your order they welcomed you like a long lost brother

The guy that owned Geno's died recently. Hasn't made their sandwiches any better.

[WolverineDG]

18. Wow, if she's avoided Tex-Mex food her whole life,

that's a whole new level of hate I've yet to encounter. Thankfully.

Just *HOW* can you live in Texas and NOT have tacos/burritos/fajitas at least once?

dg

[Manifestor_of_Light]

153. I don't understand it.

I grew up on bland Tex-Mex and I love it. But I can't eat spicy food or tomatoes, so I'm limited to El Monterey Bean n Beef Burritos, which have no tomatoes. They're frozen.

I grew up in the same town as the original Monterey House, if you remember that chain. They later changed their name to Monterey's and I don't know if they are still around.

I thought about getting some take out tacos for the woman. There is a mexican joint here, run by mexicans.

[WolverineDG]

15. Because the bullies like easy targets

and the easiest thing to do when they're jonesing for a Two Minute Hate is to pick on any state in the South, Texas & Florida being the biggest targets.

Hell, they couldn't even let DU celebrate Houston inaugurating its first openly-gay mayor without picking a fight over how the swearing-in ceremony was handled (I think it was over a singer, of all things).

dg

[cordelia]

20. Why, just in the past week

Southerners were called "cocksuckers" by one poster, and another wished that the state of Georgia had been burned to the ground by General Sherman and the earth salted.

Such progressive attitudes!

[seabeyond]

24. kinda like sittin in a PTA meeting and listening to a woman shout, rather have a robert e lee day

instead fo a martin luther king day.

geeezus. give it a break. how do people flip flop it around in their mind to point the finger at one, as they do the same.

truly amazing.

[Phentex]

31. I think it was the same person...

I find it hard to believe they post here. The thread was deleted but not before I saw that no one retaliated in the same manner. I GET that emotions were running high but damn it got ugly.

[SoCalDem]

23. It's probably more about rural v urban, in the final analysis

"The South" has a LOT of very small towns with deeply rooted families, many of whom may have never left their immediate area. Urban areas are there as well, but not nearly as "fluid" as the coastal states or the rust belt states.

Small towns tend to be more conservative, and probably more susceptible to the rantings of fundamentalist religious movements.

"Southerners" love to brag about their "heritage" and that may open them up to "push-back".

The bright red middle states have a lot in common with all red-staters.. I don't understand their mindset, but it may have more to do with their isolation than anything else.

[seabeyond]

26. socal, you and i know we can go to the small valley towns in calif and get the same

i grew up in fresno and bakersfield. lol. i know what i speak of.

[SoCalDem]

28. Fresno

:scared:

[seabeyond]

29. i know. that was

so many decades ago. it was a nice city. now i read about it and think the same thing, lol

[SoCalDem]

30. My town is 160K+ and as red as Oklahoma dirt

:cry:

[seabeyond]

32. really? isnt that a hoot. and i guess this is why, as a calif living in texas

though i dont want to be here, and i complain with exactly what people are talking about, i also know calif has it's issues too. along with every other state. oregon. i have been looking to relocate. but it has to be more inland to not so rainy for hubby. found a couple good size towns and people say they are so red and bigoted. i think, that is one of the things i am trying to run away from.

[PufPuf23]

142. Ideas for you in Oregon

Jackson county (Medford-Ashland)

Benton county (Corvallis)

?? can't remember county (Eugene)

All three counties are blue and have 4 year universities and lots of outdoors and culture nearby.

Summers are warm and dry, spring and fall very nice, and winters mild.

East of the Cascades is red, remote, and cold in winter. The west side of the coast range is rainy and somewhat remote.

I lived in Corvallis from 1994 to 1999 and Portland from 1987 to 1992 but am a native Californian and live there now.

[seabeyond]

149. interesting. i had looked at grant pass, bend and salom

a couple others. i looked at oregon, washington, montana, wy, and colorado. oregon really seemed to be the best busk for the house adn my hubby wants a stream to fish in. lol. found some property with it just out in the back yard.

colorado, i seem to get the less house for the buck, but seems where he wants to go. i think he is a tad afraid of too liberal environments. born adn raised in texas

thanks, appreciate it. gonna check those out

[PufPuf23]

154. Oregon has no sales tax but has higher property taxes as a result.

Lots of places to fish in Oregon.

Bend is cold and isolated especially in Winter (but great if a skier).

Grants Pass is more red and less access to commerical airports, culture, 4 year college, etc but cheaper homes and land.

Salem is more urban and rainy and is essentially a suburb of Portland (a quite nice city).

Corvallis, Medford-Ashland, and Eugene have better economies plus the local universities are good (Oregon State and University of Oregon are both large universities while Southern Oregon University in Ashland is a smaller but still public school that does not offer PhDs). Ashland is built with a Shakespeare theme as the live theatre there draws many tourists. Jacksonville is another town in Jackson county you might want to check out.

The three counties are a mix of agriculture, ranching, and forests (much public) and you can find rural properties readily near the small cities.

[seabeyond]

157. sigh.... i want to go. now. lol.

but really, all, quit bashing the south. (teasing)

[HereSince1628]

25. IMO the issue isn't that the south is republican and other parts of the US aren't

The source of the trouble seems to be human nature and the way human groups deal with otherness.

Few people would deny that the south has a distinct identity. It even has a unique name: "Dixie." While the rest of the US can be divided into regions, and some states have strong characters, no other group of 8 (or up to 13 depending on who is defining the south) states in the country coalesce along so many natural and anthropological dimensions to produce such a geographically strong self-conscious cultural uniqueness. This _does_ makes the south "different" from the rest of the nation.

Sociologists recognize "otherness" can be a source of both positive things (identity, self-confidence and pride) and negative things (identity crisis, defensiveness, and envy/jealousy and xenophobia).

I think we all recognize that distinctive "otherness" can and does provide a target of opportunity for ugly stereotyping and xenophobia that isn't part of our better natures.

[dawg]

33. No region of the U.S. is exactly covering itself with glory these days.

Weiner's district just elected a Republican. Massachusetts gave Teddy Kennedy's seat to Scott Brown (An injustice that will, hopefully, soon be overturned).

The South is not monolithic.

[seabeyond]

34. true that... dawg. i always say you name with my texas twang in my head,

lol

you just cant hear it.

[dawg]

52. Proper pronunciation is with a Georgia twang ...

but I'm sure the difference is slight. :)

[seabeyond]

63. ha ha... calif with a texas twang

my husband and kids try to talk texan (true texans) and they are so bad. i pick up accents.

[oldlib]

35. The South is an appreciated section of these United States.

We as Democrats must carry our message to all the states, to eliminate the indecent problems that the Goop has brought to our country.

[MadHound]

36. Well, let's look at your list

First of all, I would have to contend that Arkansas, and Florida, given their voting record and politics over the past few decades, are red states. But that quibble aside, nine of the eleven states of the Confederacy are, by your admission, red states. The three Western states that were heavily colonized by ex Confederates, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, are also red states.

Also, Jim Crow laws were the law of the land in the South until forty six years ago, a generation. Attitudes and bigotry don't die in one generation.

Southern culture not only passes along politeness and sweet tea, but bigotry as well. Not to mention organizations such as the KKK and the Conservative Citizens of America(a descendant of the old Citizens Councils of America, which were ubiquitous throughout the South, as is the modern CCOA, with chapters in ten of the eleven Confederate states).

What this amounts to is a culture of racism, bigotry and radical conservatism that stretches back unbroken for centuries. Yes, the South has made progress, and I applaud that, but it still has a long way to go. Yes, there are racists and bigots all over, but not in the concentration that we still see in the South. After all, when I travel in New England, or out West, or even here in my home state of Missouri(a border state in name, but a Confederate state in spirit, especially the southern half), I don't see people wearing shirts emblazoned with a Confederate flag and the caption "It's a white thing, you wouldn't understand".

The fact of the matter is that the South has gotten a bad reputation, deservedly. It is changing, and hopefully it will change for the better. But it still has a long way to go to live down centuries of racism, brutality and bloodshed. And complaining that the South is experiencing bigotry is ironic on so many level that it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic and insensitive to the real bigotry that the South has, and continues to deal out to anybody who doesn't fit in with Southern ideals.

[seabeyond]

37. ummmm, regardless of your reasons why, states outside of the south vote red

so when there are threads saying get rid of the south, they are being disingenuous ignoring the many states not in the south voting red.

[Hosnon]

38. You don't get it. Those non-Southern states were colonized by Southerners hundreds of years ago.

Therefore, they're really Southern states. Duh.

[seabeyond]

41. bah hahaha, you are right. i dont.... get it. nt

[MadHound]

44. Actually in the case of Wyoming, and especially Idaho, that is the truth,

Though you try to pass it off in jest. After the Civil War, many Confederates went west, wanting to find a fresh start after the devastation of the South, and a place where they could retain their customs, peculiar and otherwise, in peace, far from others. Idaho was thought to be Confederate heaven, and to this day remains a state full of radical white nationalists and other bigots who control the state.

[Hosnon]

49. Mmhmm. Care to explain away each of these non-Southern states:

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

And this is a per capita list compiled using that map and Census info (to directly address your "concentration" point): http://www.city-data.com/forum/general-u-s/1155885-hate-groups-state-where-does-your-7.html

From that list, here are some non-Southern states that beat out my home state (Georgia) on the hate-concentration list: Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Iowa, Nevada, New Jersey, Delaware, and Oklahoma.

[MadHound]

56. And yet your very map proves my point

Across the states of the Old South, you find hate groups in the twenties and thirties, across all of the region. Yes, there are exceptions like NJ that have a high number, but no other region has so many, or so many per capita.

[Hosnon]

58. Former Confederate states are 60% of the top 10 (per capita). That's a majority, but not by much.

And by the way, your bigotry assumes an extremely low mobility rate over the last 150 years.

[MadHound]

66. Well, in the Senate, and for voting purposes, sixty percent is considered a super majority

Meanwhile, you keep calling me a bigot, yet I have only presented facts, not bashed the South. Unless you consider facts to be bashing:shrug:

[MadHound]

40. But your post wasn't about states voting red,

But about perceived bigotry towards the South. And the fact of the matter is that Southern culture was, and still is, steeped in racism and bigotry. Hell, just look at one of the Southern fraternities, Kappa Alpha(which originated in Virginia and is nicknamed the Southern Gentlemen). Go to any KA house, which are primarily in the South, and you will see a cannon sitting on the front yard. This cannon symbolizes the fact that that particular chapter has never had a black member. There are only two houses in the entire country that are without cannons. The one at Westminster College in Fulton Missouri, which started admitting black members over thirty years ago, and had their cannon taken away, and the one at the University of Missouri, whose members were stupid enough to blow up with fireworks.

This is the culture of the region, a culture of racism and bigotry that goes back centuries and is still alive and well today.

[seabeyond]

42. yes. it was. hence the simplicity of listing out all the red voting states adn red gov.

and stating getting rid of the south does not eliminate the dem problem.

that is all my post was about

[MadHound]

47. From the subject line of your OP,

"the bigotry toward southern states"

That is what I was responding to.

[cordelia]

55. And you have confirmed your bigotry toward Southern states.

[MadHound]

57. Pointing out historical, cultural and current reality is now bigotry?

Umm, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Hosnon]

43. It's alive and well across the entire country.

You are not doing any good by singling out the South for racism.

[MadHound]

50. I'm fully cognizant that racism and bigotry are alive and well across the country

And I acknowledged that in my OP in this thread, "Yes, there are racists and bigots all over, but not in the concentration that we still see in the South."

What I am pointing out is the fact that racism and bigotry are woven into the fabric of Southern culture, and have been for centuries. That is what is unique about the South.

[Hosnon]

59. Your regional bigotry is clouding your opinion, unfortunately.

40% of the states with the highest number of hate groups per capita are not in the South. Explain that one. Southern transplants I guess?

[MadHound]

65. And yet the eleven states of the Confederacy, one fifth of all our states,

Contain 41% of the hate groups in this country. Care to explain that?

[Hosnon]

74. Per capita is probably a better metric. nt.

[MadHound]

76. Either way, as you've pointed out, the South is the leading region in hate groups

:shrug:

[Hosnon]

78. Probably. Exactly how does that equate to:

"The overriding culture of the South is one that still promotes racism."

We have more Waffle Houses too. Why isn't that our overriding culture?

[MadHound]

80. Take a look around at their cultural symbols,

The things that are celebrated, the traditions, the rituals. You will not find another region who has racism and bigotry so deeply embedded into its culture as the South, and if you can't see that, then you are being willfully blind.

[Hosnon]

84. MadHound, this is not 1864. Have you ever actually lived in the South?

I don't wade through a daily mudpit of racist symbols, traditions, and rituals.

You clearly have an extremely negative idea of the region and its people that does not conform to reality. That is bigotry.

[MadHound]

88. Live there, no, traveled there, a lot

And yes, I've seen the Confederate flags, the racism, the white nationalism. I see it in the culture, on the back of cars, on T-shirts that are worn there. I see it in the politics and politicians.

No, not everybody in the South is a racist bigot, and the South has made many fine contributions to this country. But the fact of the matter is, both historically and currently, the South, Southern culture, is awash in racism and bigotry. Pointing that out isn't bigotry on my part, but reality.

[Hosnon]

101. Merely travelling here - even "a lot" - does not qualify you to make broad statements of fact

about the culture.

And you don't get "reasonableness" points for acknowledging that "not everybody in the South is a racist bigot"... good lord...

[MadHound]

105. Ah, well, by that metric of not living there,

Then people aren't qualified to make any judgment about any region, within or without the United States. Yet gee Wally, that happens all the time.

But it is nice to see that you recognize that I am making factual statements, as hard as it is for you to admit that.

[Hosnon]

113. To the degree you are claiming? No, no one can.

Just as I cannot claim to be an expert on the culture of, say, Japan.

[MadHound]

119. LOL!

I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert. I am pointing out historical, current and cultural realities. Nice try at sticking words in my mouth though.

Sorry, but anybody can read history, investigate cultures, keep up on current events and draw conclusions from that without having to live in that particular region or country. It is called scholarship, research, knowledge.

[Hosnon]

121. You are claiming to have intimate knowledge of the daily lives of people in the South.

"... the things that are celebrated, the traditions, the rituals".

You don't acquire that knowledge any other way but by immersion.

[MadHound]

126. Oh that's bullshit and you know it.

If you want to pick up on subtleties, I would agree with you. But racism and bigotry aren't subtle, you can see it all around the South as you travel and stop various places. Besides, for years and decades the South has tried to push its culture off on the rest of us, so its not like the South was/is hiding it under a basket.

[Hosnon]

129. What is exported as southern culture is an exaggeration.

No, I've never had a mint-julip.

Yes, it is all over the South but it is also all over the country. But simply being all over does not make it the defining cultural characteristic.

[MadHound]

132. Ah, so I shouldn't take the words and actions of Southern leaders as real or true?

I should simply disbelieve the history that I research, the culture that I personally see in the South when I'm traveling there, because it is all an exaggeration?

Sorry, don't buy that. I know the difference between exaggeration and reality.

[Hosnon]

134. You can ascribe the words and actions of Southern politicians

to to entire region to the extent anyone can ascribe W's words and actions to you.

And I was referring to the culture you said is pushed by the South.

[MadHound]

135. Except Southern politicians is plural,

And they were/are all across the South.

And yes, whether you like it or no, there is a certain culture that is native to the South as a whole. You may not like it, you may try to deny that, but it is still reality.

[Hosnon]

138. Not sure how that changes anything.

But, I'll play: We have a GOP House, so is it fair for the rest of the world to saddle you with what the GOP House members do and say?

And of course there is a Southern culture, but racism is not its defining characteristic.

[seabeyond]

93. now, we are in texas, not really the south. but i couldnt think of any, either.

i understand the issues in the south and texas. but the bigotry, bashing, and flat out lies about the area is what bothers me.

[MadHound]

97. What flat out lies have I posted? n/t

[seabeyond]

100. not you. at all. i was not addressing your posts. no implying, nothing.

more like when people start threads talking about what the kids are taught in schools, without fact or knowledge and refuse to listen to those of us that have kids and school. perpetuating lies.

not even kinda talking about you

[MadHound]

106. My bad, sorry. n/t

[Marr]

89. Wait a minute. There are only 14 southern states.

Those fourteen states comprise 60% of the states with the highest number of hate groups per capita, and you're trying to suggest parity? There are fifty states. If 14 states dominate any list from a group that large, it signifies a pretty serious statistical reality.

[Hosnon]

96. I used the 11 Confederate states. And, no, I'm not trying to suggest parity.

I'm suggesting that 40% of the top 10 most "hateful" states per capita are not in the South, and therefore that the problem is a national problem (and singling out "the South" is counter-productive)

[Marr]

104. Eleven would be worse.

Eleven states comprise 60% of the top ten 'most hateful' states per capita. No one is denying that racism and bigotry exist outside the south. They're saying it's more prevalent and pervasive there. The statistics you're citing seem to back up their claims rather strongly.

[cordelia]

51. Poster just exposed him/herself as yet another

bigoted region basher.

[MadHound]

54. Actually, I don't bash any region

And you can go searching in the archives and find that is true. What I'm presenting here are facts. You don't like those facts, oh well, deal with it.

[pintobean]

48. Wrong. This is not THE culture of the region

There are many cultures in any region.

[MadHound]

53. Really?

Robert E. Lee day, Confederate flags designed into state flags, Confederate flags just ubiquitous throughout the South, fraternities that are proud to be all white, it goes on and on. This is the culture of the South that presents its face to the rest of the country. That is a fact.

Are there other cultures in the region, certainly. But the overriding culture of the South is one that still promotes racism, bigotry, radical conservative politics.

[Hosnon]

60. "The overriding culture of the South is one that still promotes racism, bigotry..."

Wow. Fail on a massive level.

You might want to do a bit of introspection on this.

[MadHound]

61. Can you show me any other state outside of the South that promotes Robert E. Lee day

As a holiday? Or that includes a Confederate flag in the design of their state flag? I could go on and on here, but I don't want to tax you too much.

[Hosnon]

62. That's it? Robert E. Lee Day and Mississippi's flag? Clearly that proves your point.

And for what it's worth, I've lived in the South my entire life and have never encountered anyone who acknowledges or commemorates Robert E. Lee Day. I don't even know when it is (or if Georgia recognizes it).

[MadHound]

67. So I guess that means no, you can't find any other state outside the South

That includes those, and other such threads in their culture. Good thing I didn't give other examples, otherwise you would really be out of your depth. I make it easy for you, with only two examples, and you can't refute either one.

And yes, Robert E. Lee day is recognized by Georgia, along with Mississippi, Florida, Alabama and Arkansas, among others. January 19th.

[Hosnon]

70. Of course it means no.

What a silly point.

The South certainly has its problems but they are not unique, by any means, to the region. Singling it out simply provides cover to the rest of the country ("Well we're not as bad as them.") It's counter-productive and, yes, regional bigotry to malign the region for what is a nationwide problem.

[MadHound]

79. I'm not trying to provide cover for the rest of the country

I'm simply pointing out that there is good reason why the South gets slammed. It's record of bigotry, racism and radical conservatism goes back centuries. Yes, as I've said before, all states have their bigots and racists, but the history of these groups in these states doesn't go back decades, and isn't an interwoven part of their culture. Big difference.

So pointing out historical and cultural reality is now bigotry? As I've said before, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Hosnon]

92. You do realize that the Black population of your monolithic, racist South

is approximately 20%, right? No other region comes close to that.

So a solid 1/5 of the population (that is Black) has racism at its cultural core?

[seabeyond]

94. and i read recently that there is an immigration from the north, back to the south

by the black community, which i found interesting.

[MadHound]

102. Ah, so are you going to tell me that because of the population of blacks in the South

During the Civil War and after, when blacks were much more than twenty percent of the population, that the South wasn't racist then?

It isn't the population ratio that makes the region racist. It is the bigotry, racism and radical conservatism interwoven into the history, politics and culture of the region, as it has been interwoven for centuries.

[Hosnon]

108. Nope - sorry to disappoint.

But why are you dismissing 20% of the population in your Culture Calculus? I can answer that one for you: it doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

[MadHound]

112. You're trying to animate a strawman there, sorry, I won't play. n/t

[bvar22]

114. Do you know which state holds the World Record...

...for The Most Black Men Lynched on a Single Day ?

[MadHound]

123. Do you know which five states top the list in overall numbers lynched?

Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia.

To answer your question, probably New York during the Civil War draft riots.

[bvar22]

145. I'm not the one trying to draw lines or make spurious claims...

...that simple Geographical Separation makes some people better than others.
Good luck with that.
You aren't doing very well so far.

BTW: Are you aware that the Army of the North,
the same Army that "Defeated the South and Freed the Black Man",
turned right around and waged a Government Sanctioned War of Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing against the Native Americans?
...and a very successful War it was too.
I don't believe that The South even had a vote on that one.




My Wife & I moved to The Rural South from Minneapolis in 2006,
and are living happily here.
We belong to the church of:
"We ALL have a lot of work to do removing the logs from our eyes."
So far, so good!

The South is beautiful, and belongs to ALL of us.

Its a shame to waste it by hating it.
The choice is yours.

[seabeyond]

150. you have beautiful pictures. so clear. nt

[cordelia]

77. The only time I've ever been made awre of R.E. Lee day

is when some South bashing bigot from elsewhere reminds us it exists. I think they have it marked on their calendars to bring it up.

[MadHound]

81. Well, your state celebrates it.

Show me any other non-Southern state that celebrates the birthday of a man who was a traitor to his country.

[cordelia]

115. Now that I've looked up when Robt E Lee Day

is, GA State Holiday is "observed" from 19JAN to 25NOV. It coincides with the day after Thanksgiving holiday.

Some celebration, huh?

[MadHound]

127. Got a link? n/t

[pintobean]

72. Why would they?

[Hosnon]

75. That is an excellent point and one I often point out.

At least someone flying the Confederate flag in Georgia can try to claim its not because they're racist (e.g., heritage). Someone outside of the South? Pure racism (with a few exceptions perhaps).

[MadHound]

82. Why should the South celebrate him?

He was, after all, a traitor to his country. But the South continues to celebrate this man, and not only that, but uses his birthday to grind the political ax about celebrating Martin Luther King day.

[Hosnon]

86. Sigh. "The South" does nothing of the sort.

You are oozing bigotry all over the place and cannot even recognize it.

[MadHound]

95. Then why is his birthday a holiday in Southern states?

Why celebrate him? Why not just let him fade into historical oblivion.

And again, you claim I'm a bigot on this matter, when all I've done is point out historical, current and cultural realities(some of which you even agree with). Why do you consider it bigotry to make these valid and real points? Because it makes you uncomfortable? It should.

[seabeyond]

98. texas doesnt. i have only heard one person in all the years here, say that.

had me facepalming in the middle of a meeting and president winking at me. didnt hear a single person in the room agree with the woman.

[Hosnon]

103. It's bigotry to say the South celebrates Robert E. Lee day.

Sure, some states officially recognize it, and I'm sure some people actually celebrate it. But that is light years shy of "the South celebrates it".

That is bigotry.

[MadHound]

111. It is an official state holiday in a number of Southern states

If making it an official state holiday isn't celebrating it, well hell, I guess Memorial Day, Veterans' Day and other such holidays aren't celebrated either. What, you want presents like on Christmas.

Not to mention that it was used, and still is used, by Southern bigots to play political hardball concerning Martin Luther King day. Speaking of bigotry, WHOOOMP, there it is.

[Hosnon]

118. I am not Georgia and vice versa. That should be pretty obvious.

Can I ascribe every proclamation made by George W. Bush as President to you? No.

You cannot support your claim that "the South" celebrates that holiday (because it isn't true).

[MadHound]

128. I'm not ascribing anything to you, stop trying to take everything personally

Because it isn't.

And when Robert E Lee day is an official state holiday across the South, yes, I would say that qualifies as celebrating it.

[Hosnon]

131. If you don't want it to be personal, quit saying "the South this", "the South that", and

"Southerners thing/act/do this or that". And the holiday is not celebrated across the South. Put down that broad brush for crying out loud.

As a Southerner living in the South, how exactly is your broad brush not going to include me (and everyone else for that matter)?

[MadHound]

133. Again, you are taking it personally, when I'm not making it personal

If I were making it personal, I would say "Hosnon this" or "Hosnon that". I am referring to a geopolitical region, and there is no other way to put it other than "the South" or "Southern".

You are trying to play semantic games now, why is that? Because you've run out of strawmen and valid arguments? (Psst, those last two lines were personal, note I said "you." Get the difference now?).

[Hosnon]

136. Have you missed EVERY DU Southern thread?

One of the main complaints is the broad brush generalizing.

It's harder and less simplistic to speak accurately and specifically, true. But if you don't want to be accused of using a broad brush, um, don't use one. And that is not semantics or word play.

[pintobean]

99. I don't know. I'm not a southerner.

I would guess heritage. I've visited the south many times and wouldn't assume it's due to racism. My experience was hospitality regardless of race.

Robert E. Lee Day was around long before Martin Luther King Day.

[MadHound]

107. What other traitor to our country has his or her birthday celebrated?

"Heritage" is a polite term used to hide an ugly reality.

[pintobean]

116. I see an ugly reality

It has nothing to do with heritage, flags, generals or southerners.

[MadHound]

130. What is that ugly reality that you see?

Truly, inquiring minds want to know. Don't be coy now.

[Worship Money]

39. Little late but,

I've found that a large portion, maybe majority, of the truly steadfast, outspoken, and ferocious liberals out there come from the South.

It's unfortunate that the OVERALL climate in the South trends toward, frankly, batshit insane. But there are tons of brilliant, aware, and great-hearted individuals that come out of that area through no fault of their own.

We don't choose where we're born or come from.

[seabeyond]

45. hey... i know living in texas, and my area, the boys and i have learned to be very vocal

in the most respectful of way, totally informed out of necessity, by living amongst all the fundies and repugs. that is for sure

[Shagbark Hickory]

71. It'd be the same if you lived in california or new jersey. n/t

[seabeyond]

90. sure. my hubby went to a class in toronto. 2 from texas, calif, mass, il and italy

he was telling me the first day, a fox news watching mouth that went on and on about the horrible-ness of obama and socialism, ect.... i laughed and asked, the dude from texas? NO, he said. the guy from massachusetts. lol

it happens

but then, i find more that agree with me in calif than i do in my area of texas.

dallas, houston, austin, san antonio, el paso, it wouldn't be so hard to find those that agree with me.

[Shagbark Hickory]

109. Sure if you live in small specific pockets of california, just like small specific pockets of texas.

But why should a state like California, which, according to the info on the Anti-Defamation League's website, has more hate groups than any other state, get the reputation of being a super tolerant, super liberal place when in reality, it's only specific communities within california that are those things?

Same as anywhere.

[seabeyond]

117. i was talking to a poster above about exactly that. i was checking out oregon

and the areas i could move, smaller towns and away from the rains are strong repug areas and very bigoted, from what i am told. i grew up in bakersfield and fresno calif. saw my share of bigotry. and i know small towns in calif and nevada that are no different from the areas i live in now.

i get it.

i am not living in dallas, houston, austin, el paso, san antonio where i would have more people talking like me.

[Worship Money]

110. Let's face it

These whackjobs can be found all the place

Up here, there was a vomitrocious McCain-well really mainly just a Republican- rally at my local rec center back in 08. It was (probably still is) on youtube. Those proto-Tea Partiers were already out in force right here, trying to bully reporters and peddling their filth.

[seabeyond]

120. traveling up to cape cod mass, i saw more channels set on fox news than even in my area

of texas. we use to be bad here, but now a days, more and more people have it on other channels.... thankfully.

i get tired of throwing fits. now i get to praise, because it is not set on fox

[bvar22]

46. The South is BEAUTIFUL, and belongs to all of us!

Its a shame to just give it to the assholes.

If you Hate the South,
please stay away.
We already have enough bigots.
All the rest of you are invited over for Greenbeans & Cornbread !

bvar22 & Starkraven
Turning the South Blue!

We moved from Minneapolis to The South in 2006.
We saw more Rebel Flags & "I Love Rush" bumper stickers
in the north Minneapolis White Flight suburbs
than we have around our new home,
and Re-fighting the Civil War seems to be a much bigger issue
with those who Live to the North of us,
even on DU.

[Shagbark Hickory]

69. +!

[hifiguy]

64. What I call "The Stupid Belt"

is not geographically contiguous whatsoever, though it is more concentrated in certain places than others. Minnesota has plenty of snowbillies and a fair assortment of bigoted assholes. Viz, Batshit Bachmann. The one thing they most often share is fundymentalpatient religion.

[Shagbark Hickory]

68. Then why do you call it "The Stupid Belt" ??? As you said, your state has it's share of bigoted ass-

holes.

Unfair to label everyone as being stupid.

[hifiguy]

73. Stupidity is everywhere

I merely call it the "stupid belt" to encompass those areas most likely to have high concentrations of such idiots regardless of what state they may be in. Exurban areas - one might call them "white flight areas" in most places tend to have high concentrations of stupidity whether in Minnesota, Texas or California. It's a metaphor, not a blanket condemnation.

[Shagbark Hickory]

87. That's utterly preposterous.

But it figures, you being in the Preposterous Belt and everything.

Not a real nice feeling being labeled, is it?

We have an ample supply of "metaphors" like this and we can do without them.

[hifiguy]

140. I couldn't begin to care less about how you want to label me.

Honestly, I really couldn't. I know who and what I am and that's what matters to me. FWIW I label myself as a writer, an atheist, a structural Marxist, an Asperger's person, a musician, a Social Democrat, a Democratic voter, a law school graduate, a reader, and a lot of other things as well. Where I was born and live is so far down that list I can't see it from here.

It seems readily apparent to anyone who looks at national maps showing which areas consistently vote which ways will see consistent, concentrated pockets of people who vote majority Repuke election after election. The craziest among these areas vomit up people like Bachmann, Virginia Foxx and Eric Cantor, to name the first three idiots that came to mind.

Idiots are everywhere, and they tend to be majorities in certain areas whether the state you're looking at is Maine, Florida, Missouri, Washington or California. That is the only point I was trying to make. :eyes: I am "bigoted" against people who are either stupid or willfully ignorant, but bigotry is based on ignorance and/pr prejudice and has no rational base, whereas I have spent a lifetime amassing rational reasons why I dislike the stupid and the willfully ignorant.

[Shagbark Hickory]

141. Most people do care.

You've made it clear that you have no business calling any other region "stupid" based on concentrations of supporters of politicians you don't agree with since your region has a very high concentration of such supporters.

I do care that you label me "stupid" because I live in a particular region. It's hurtful, disrespectful and counterproductive.

There are times you need to keep your opinions to yourself in order to be respectful of others. This is one of those times.

[hifiguy]

144. You miss my point entirely

The region I refer to as stupid is NOT geographically contiguous or even geographically defined. It is shorthand for a construct. Perhaps it is best defined by certain demographic characteristics, of which geography is not a controlling one in any sense. The type of politicians elected by such areas - say congressional districts - seems to be a constant regardless of their location.

There is another thread that addresses the issue better than I apparently have and it can be found at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1991689

The map in that thread shows exactly what I was trying to describe.

[Shagbark Hickory]

146. Perhaps. All you had to say was "I'm sorry"

I'll leave you with this final thought....
The South, or "The Stupid Belt" as you call it, is part of your country.
It's your country too.

If you take so little pride in your country, even with all it's problems, to write off a huge chunk of it despite many people there trying to change things for the better, then I feel sorry for you.

[geardaddy]

148. He never said the South = The Stupid Belt.

[hifiguy]

152. I never said "the South" was "the Stupid Belt."

EVER. Which is why I used an initial example - Bachmann - from my home state and specifically defined it non-geographically or perhaps more accurately, trans-geographically. I honestly thought by putting it in the terms that I did, that I was making that point clear as was my intent. I did so for the express purpose of avoiding the very thing you are accusing me of.

I have nothing but admiration for the good progressives who live in the South. There are times when that must be a very frustrating and infuriating experience, politically speaking.

[Shagbark Hickory]

155. What were you talking about in the subject for post #64

[hifiguy]

156. You did read this line in that post?

" is not geographically contiguous whatsoever, though it is more concentrated in certain places than others." (emphasis added). Again I refer you to the map in my post upthread. This was an attempt to put into words what that map more clearly shows. Apparently I did not succeed in that effort.

[Shagbark Hickory]

164. OK. Case closed.

I had enough of this. I'm glad you don't really think the south is the stupid belt if that's what you're saying.

[hifiguy]

166. That is exactly what I am saying

so we have something we can agree on. Cheers! :hi:

[TheKentuckian]

172. That isn't what was said and you are either taking yourself too seriously or have skin a micron

thick.

There are stupid fucks everywhere but in some pockets they are a bit more thick with numbers and certainly are more proud of being fuckwits than other areas.

Now, I understand that the south gets more than its fair share of heat when you think about states like Oklahoma and Idaho that make states like Kentucky, Georgia, and Texas seem like liberal bastions but I don't really understand the steady simmer of anger about bigotry against the south. It isn't undeserved, I just wish people would grasp that most places have a majority of idiots and bigots but very sizable minorities of decent thinking, reachable, and even liberal folks as well as admitting their liberal majorities are not as overwhelming as is pretended.

The real deal would be that rural areas are generally conservative and metro areas are much more liberal, that is the real split. If you are in a blue state, it is most likely because you have a lot of cities or a very large one and your outlying regions are just as red, if not more so, as the ones in red states.

[LanternWaste]

83. I see it less as bigotry and more as a simpleton's provincialism.

I see it less as bigotry and more as a simpleton's dogmatic provincialism. Regionalism in and of itself provides convenient answers (albeit invalid answers more often than not...) to complex, multi-layered cultural problems.

In that respect, I think many of us are not so far removed from the Philosophies of Simplism the GOP has embraced over the past quarter century.

[Shagbark Hickory]

91. +!

Love the SAT words.

[DainBramaged]

85. Why are the states with the highest levels of poverty, lowest levels of academic achievement

and highest rates of divorce all located in the south? Is it the fault of the rest of the Nation, or a culture that has yet to embrace the 21st Century or God's law of help those who cannot help themselves?


I don't call it bigotry, I call it fact.

[louslobbs]

122. It is not reasonable to blame certain areas of our country for the problems in our country. I do

feel however, that it is reasonable to blame those individuals or groups within various areas of our country for the problems we face. Are there more people consolidated in certain areas of our country that share a certain way of being, an ideology, or fixed way of religious belief that could be the cause of great upsets in our country? Yes, I believe there are, but we can't simply believe that it's "the south." I used to make the statement, that "if all Republicans/Teabaggers disappeared from the earth one day, that all of the countries problems would disappear as well." I still think that sometimes and I wish there were a way to test that theory out, but there isn't. It's important for me, that I try each day, not to generalize or make statements that can be easily challenged or disproved simply because I let my emotions get the best of me. It's difficult to check yourself, to monitor who you are being in any situation, especially when emotions kick in, but it is difficult to control emotions sometimes when the reality of what we might be dealing with is in fact, emotional. The best thing to do in these situations, is to step back, check yourself and ask the question, who am I being in this situation and are my feelings and emotions getting in the way of seeing the situation for what it really is. It works most of the time for me, but not always. However the more you practice it, the better you get at it though you never get it right all of the time.
Lou

[seabeyond]

125. +1. "more you practice it, the better you get "

true that.

[louslobbs]

137. Hey seabeyond! Great to hear from you it's been a while for me as I just finished working on my

20th prime time emmy awards show which kept me pretty busy and thankfully employed for the last several months and past 25years. It's good to see you online again.
Your friend,

Lou

[Zorra]

139. Hey, let conservatives have their own country.

That would mean a much, much, better life for all of us, and our descendants as well.

I'm sick of them, personally, they are nothing but a regressive drain of my time and energy, and they never learn from their chronic costly mistakes.

Fact: We will remain in evolutionary, political, economic, and social stagnation for as long as conservatives have any significant political control over our lives.

Let 'em go. Go Go Go. Just go.

It's like this;

"Buh bye, good riddance, don't let the door hit y'all in the ass on the way out. Enjoy making your own filthy conservative hell for yourselves! Please, don't write, and definitely don't come back any time soon. Don't go away mad, just go away! Hope I don't see ya!!!"

[Shagbark Hickory]

143. Would you believe they say the same thing about us?

It's not like a divorce. We can't both leave and put the country on the market.

[Zorra]

162. Yeah, sure. Lots of kids think they hate their parents until they get left alone.

I could care less what conservatives think or say at this point. It's all bullshit anyway.

Conservatives are doing everything possible to destroy democracy and our very planet itself.

They are forcing us into a life and death struggle. As long as they have power over us, they will continue to render us powerless to make any significant constructive progressive change, and everything will continue in a downward spiral until ultimately they succeed in killing the planet.

I would be agreeable with any reasonably equitable geopolitical division of the US in order to not have to care for conservatives any more.

Let's get on with it.

[bvar22]

147. We'll stay in the part that gets New Orleans,

has plenty of clean water,
and a LONG growing season.
You, of course, are free to do what you want.


--bvar22 & Starkraven

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

173. Thus fulfilling your quota of posting the same

fucking picture of a campaign sign when the shortcomings and inadequacies of the south is acknowledged and discussed.

[S_E_Fudd]

160. No region of the country has been as politically coddled as the south...

Starting with the cave to Southern delegates at the Constitutional convention allowing them to count 3/5 of their slaves for purposes of congressional representation...to allowing Jim Crow laws to flourish, to tolerating segregation, lynching, and public accommodation laws, to coddling southern racists like Strom Thurmond and Richard Russell during the debates over civil rights (until Harry Truman, Hubert Humphrey, Lyndon Johnson and Everett Dirksen had the ballsack to challenge them in 1948, and defeat them in the 1960's) the rest of the country has bent over backwards accommodating these southern politicians united in their racism.

Southerners have been overrepresented in leadership positions in congress...and 5 out of the last 10 presidents have been from the south.

Not to mention the enormous amount of federal money pumped into the region...

Yet no region whines as much about supposed incursions into their sovereignty and about supposed conspiracies to strip them of their power. They still have a confederate mentality in many ways, viewing themselves as separate and distinct from the rest of the country.

When you see the biggest pigs at the federal trough constantly whining about the federal government it does and should breed resentment with people in other regions.

So I think that is why you see this type of ire directed at them and not so much at other regions...

btw: I live in Virginia

[seabeyond]

161. +1. i dont have issues with this conversation

and much of what we talk about is factual with the south. facts are not an issue either.

it is posts that say burn baby burn with the fires in texas, or the ugly with the drought, or all of the south should not be a part of the u.s., or all kids in texas are stupid.

that stuff... is bullshit.

but living in texas, there are certainly issues i have living here.

[Aerows]

168. I'm from the Deep South

and have lived here all of my life. I have no shame attached to it, nor will I ever. Yes, it gets tiring when people classify everyone here as Republicans/bigots/uneducated.

We're also very loving in the South, friendly, courteous and we get along with each other. There is good and bad along with everything.

[seabeyond]

171. i moved to texas from calif. everyone wants to hug me. eeeew, i would say

we barely look in peoples eyes in calif, let alone hug.

yes... lots of nice.

[Whisp]

170. K&R! can't be no bigots here! why we are Liberals!!!!

:sarcasm:

no bigotry, no racism, no sexism, but lots of homophobia!