Pit Bulls

[JVS]

I did not grow up with dogs. Thus when I contemplated whether I would like to have a dog, I thought it wise to do some research. After all, it's better to think twice than to jump in and make a hash of things, especially when the well being of a living creature is involved. I found the information on dogs to be most fascinating.

One thing that I noticed in my research is that different dog breeds had different needs. One who lives a sedentary life should avoid a dog that needs activity. Conversely, there are breeds of dogs that are really not able to keep up with someone who intends to run 5 miles each morning. One aspect that I considered very important was the issue of safety. I certainly do not want a dog that would rip my throat out while I'm sleeping, or one that treats me fine but is liable to kill my nephew or niece. So I read up on the behavior of various breeds.

What I learned can be summarized in several points.

1. Dogs don't think like people while humans generally form affection based relationships with their families, dogs are pack animals and need to either have a leader or be a leader to feel happy.
2. If your dog knows you are the leader s/he will be happy because h/she can obey you, if your dog thinks s/he is the leader then s/he will be stressed and unhappy because there is no way for you to even perceive, let alone obey his/her wishes.
3. A dominant dog will be dangerous to humans and a submissive dog will be safe. Recognizing and correcting dominant behavior on the part of your dog is essential to safe dog owning.
4. Dogs can sense fear or nervousness though, so if you are afraid of your dog it will be difficult to assert dominance.
5. Small children are an especially difficult ingredient to the mix because they are weak, easy to frighten, and not yet wise but you must make it clear to the dog that the child is higher in the pack than the dog.
6. There are no bad breeds of dog, but there are some breeds that are more difficult to dominate than others. There is also the issue of size that contributes to the urgency of making sure your dog is submissive. If I have a massive rottweiler or pit bull then it is my responsibility to recognize and correct dominant behavior immediately, lest there be catastrophic results. Conversely, there are a lot of small dogs out there that are allowed to get away with dominant behavior even though they shouldn't because their owners consider it harmless or even cute.

So when I see these flame wars about certain breeds, I disagree with those who think that certain breeds should be illegal or should not exist. I think that the problem here is that many owners are not capable of handling their dogs.

Any thoughts?

[Brickbat]

1. Submissive dogs are not necessarily safe; they can act out of fear if they get pushed too far.

Basically, I assume that any dog can flip its shit at any time and act accordingly.

[rug]

2. You don't have to deal with this crap if you have a cat.

They just don't give a shit.

[RKP5637]

4. I find it harder to gain the respect of a cat than a dog. My current cat I raised

from a lost kitten and was working at home. He spent a lot of time with me and we've become best of friends. Yep, and I agree, some cats don't give a shit.

[rhett o rick]

30. I just go with it. My cat is in charge, it's cool. nm

[Buddyblazon]

55. My cat Coltrane thinks we're litter mates.

He gives me "baths" at night before we go to bed. Licks my neck and lips until I'm clean, then sleeps in my armpit for the rest of the night. He follows me around when I'm doing yard work...including while I'm mowing the lawn, though he keeps his distance because of the noise. He comes when I call him....plays fetch...and is the best mouser and bird catcher I've ever seen.

My friends call him the "Cat Dog". I think a lot of his behavior comes from the way I raised him. He's 12 this year. Got him as a kitten, and as a little guy I would take him in the car to band practice where he'd hang out with 3 grown dogs. He would play with them like he was a dog, and being the smallest one, the dogs kind of formed this parental protection thing with him. Plus he was always around new people.

Smartest animal I've ever owned. And certainly not your typical cat.

[rhett o rick]

56. Sounds special. My cat and I have a battle as to who is "training" whom. nm

[jberryhill]

24. Having both is a hoot

Cat/Dog relationships can go in different directions, and are fun to watch.

It's weird that we have this notion of dogs and cats being some kind of natural enemy - "they fight like cats and dogs".

But in the ones I've seen, the cats tend to get the upper hand as long as they don't piss off the dog beyond a certain point. Dogs will put up with a lot of crap from cats, since they know they aren't allowed to rip their heads off.

[RKP5637]

26. I raised a cat and dog together. They were the best of friends, used to play and

chase each other all of the time. The cat used to sometimes jump on the dog's back as he climbed the stairs and the cat got a free ride up the stairs. It was really funny to see! The dog and cat used to egg each other on, it was hard to tell which one had the upper hand.

[iris27]

29. Cats may not give a shit, but some will just flip the hell out and attack for no fathomable reason.

I've had a cat dart across the full length of a room to bite me on the ankle (as I was sitting at a computer not moving), then run away again.

[Karenina]

53. They also attack babysitters!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOEwB0qjGpo

:wow:

[astonamous]

3. Pit Bulls for Dummies

[InvisibleTouch]

8. And there sure are a lot of dummies...

...when it comes to the subject of pit bulls. ;)

I'm not a pit bull person myself, but when I see so much ignorance, hate, and bigotry heaped upon a breed, I feel more and more protective of them.

With *any* large breed you have to know the psychology of the breed, the psychology of dogs, and be willing and able to establish yourself as a benign alpha. Ideally you also start with a dog from a reputable breeder who has a stable temperament. They are not that hard to find.

[astonamous]

18. Breeders...

http://youtu.be/ajfi0fXE858

[patrick t. cakes]

5. If your active and run 5 miles a day or more

get a brittany. An absolutely wonderful dog. Not too big, not too small. Love people, intelligent, easy to train; the breed is a very smart dog.

Been taking my roommates one year old running every other day, through a wooded park and it's been blast.

Just a sweet, happy, energetic pup.


<>

[baldguy]

6. There are no bad dogs; but there are plenty of bad owners.

[jberryhill]

7. The "pack animal" thing only goes so far

Domesticated dogs are domesticated dogs and have been that way for thousands of years.

Wolf behavior only goes so far in providing insight to the behavior of these animals which have been our constant partners since the dawn of civilization, and who made civilization possible in that partnership. We have always needed dogs, and they have always needed us, because not only did humans make dogs what they are, but dogs also were part of making humans what we are.

You can release, say, basset hounds into the wild, and they are not going to form autonomous packs of bassets.

The ones to keep an eye on are border collies. The average border collie is smarter than most people.

[patrick t. cakes]

12. There are cases where family pets do pack up when they get loose

I've seen them.
And size didn't determine the leader either.

That basset I bet would find a pack, given enough time.

[jberryhill]

15. I've heard that packs of domestic dogs can be dangerous

...and more dangerous than wolf packs, which don't go after people.

I don't doubt that they do that, but it seems that dogs understand that dogs are dogs and people are people. It doesn't seem, in my wholly untrained opinion, that dogs see humans as "substitute dogs".

It's useful, but I've seen people who think that is all there is to know about dogs.

[patrick t. cakes]

19. I'm with you there

The dynamic is more complicated than "we're one happy pack."
I'm just learning about dogs (see above post) and haven't really experienced them on an intimate level, but,

I agree that they see us as something other than two legged dogs. They don't interact in the same way with us, they don't sniff humans in the same way, etc...

I just wonder what they see us as, (i suppose food suppliers)

[jberryhill]

21. Here's a weird one

My dog (a mutt found years ago abandoned and injured), has a very strong maternal instinct, and treats just about anything as a puppy.

For years she used to lick my face for a while every night at bedtime.

I grew a beard, and she started licking my wife's face instead.

I think she thinks she succeeded in getting my fur to grow, and is working on her now.

There are general commonalities of behavior of dogs, but each one has its own personality and I swear that many have a sense of humor. If a dog can figure out how to make you laugh, and then understand that you like to laugh, some will keep trying. Since they live with these big unpredictable two-legged animals with fur deficiency, they seem to put as much effort into figuring you out as the other way around.

After a while, they seem to understand a lot of what you say to them, and you understand their communication through body movements and postures in a way that "feels" almost like psychic communication, since your interactions with each other are based on years of closely watching each other's behavior.

And.. they don't talk much.

[patrick t. cakes]

25. yeah, thats about right

"Since they live with these big unpredictable two-legged animals with fur deficiency, they seem to put as much effort into figuring you out as the other way around."

I definitely can see Clyde trying to figure out what the hell we are. And we most certainly must appear highly unpredictable and strange (think mowing the lawn - how does a dog process that? Clyde runs.)

And he most certainly has a distinct personality; and the range of emotion is fascinating. Food plays a lot into their motivations, but companionship is a close second. Lotta love in that dog, especially after a long day of being separated.

He's learning, I am too.

[LWolf]

50. Whether they see us as "dogs" or not, pack mentality is still at work.

My current dog is an australian shepherd. I've had a variety of dogs in my lifetime, but she is my first herding dog.

I am the pack leader. She is happy when she is with me. She is happier when she is with me and we are doing something. She must "help" whatever that is.

She does not interact with a single other human the way she does with me. She considers herself 3rd in pack rank: Me first, then the cat, who was here when she arrived, then the rest of the population.

She lives among free range chickens, has since she was a pup, and in 8 years has never harassed or harmed a feather. She lives with horses and sheep, and has never, ever, chased one. She DOES happily chase the rabbits that overpopulate the place. She knows the difference between who is "pack," and who is not.

She likes other dogs, and will happily play for hours, as long as they don't approach me. If they do, she will try to engage their attention in play AWAY from me. If that doesn't work, she will bark at them. If that doesn't work, she'll push and nip..."herd" them away from me.

People? She treats other people the same way she treats other dogs. She likes them. She'll happily accept treats or scratches. She gets anxious and unhappy, though, when they approach me. She uses all the same moves with people she does with other dogs, except instead of nipping, she'll jump on them, which she NEVER does with me.

When I tell her to do something, she does it. Without question. When someone else tells her, she ignores them completely. As far as she is concerned, she outranks every human except for me.

[roguevalley]

57. I had five dachshunds and you better be the pack leader from

day one. Small may be easier in some ways but they can still rip each other's guts out.

[Edweird]

9. Understand pack dynamics. Adopt a pit bull. Assert and reinforce your pack leadership.

Have a happy relationship with one of the best dog breeds around.

[Edweird]

Understand pack dynamics. Adopt a pit bull. Assert and reinforce your pack leadership.

Have a happy relationship with one of the best dog breeds around.

[Edweird]

10. Understand pack dynamics. Adopt a pit bull. Assert and reinforce your pack leadership.

Have a happy relationship with one of the best dog breeds around.

[madinmaryland]

11. Get a cat. nt

[RKP5637]

14. +1, n/t

[xchrom]

13. All dogs raised right - are great dogs - & most dogs NOT raised right

Are still great dogs.

I have a pittie mix & an American dingo - they're wild - but they are wonderful.

Too rough for most - but hearts of gold.

[roguevalley]

58. we had an Australian Coolie, heeler and dingo mix. AWESOME

dog. Herded me around all the time he wanted to herd so badly.

[astonamous]

16. Be a good pack leader.... breed doesn't matter.

I guess I have been lucky. I never go out looking for a specific breed when ADOPTING a dog. The dog usually picks me or my husband and that's it, we have a new family member. We just don't over think the process. Love is what it is and the "color" of it's fur doesn't matter.

We have had a couple of puppies and the rest have been older rescues. We have also been lucky with our fosters.

Older dogs are better for first time dog owners, in my opinion. Not old dogs, just older. Better chance of knowing what you are getting with an adult dog.

All dogs need to be treated with respect because they are animals and think/behave like animals.


http://youtu.be/EmYSHj62fZc

[patrice]

17. Collies are the best and Zoe is the bestest collie ever!!

[seabeyond]

20. let us say it is all on the owner and not the breed. yet, a particular dog with a bad owner kills.

it isnt the dogs fault. it is the owner. we still have the dead.

we cannot restrict ownership of an animal. we are going off good faith that a person will have dominence, control, be responsible with the dog, not allowing it to maim or kill another human being.

that is not our reality.

there are particular dogs that tend to kill more than others. significantly more than others.

and we are all at the mercy of an owners ability or desire to keep us safe.

[jberryhill]

22. Parents of humans can do that too

[seabeyond]

28. ? nt

[flvegan]

39. "there are particular dogs that tend to kill more than others. significantly more than others."

Please explain your facts here on this. I'll wait.

If you post anything from the defunct CDC report or the laughable debunked Merritt Clifton report, I will mock you openly and repeatedly.

Go!

[roguevalley]

59. given that Cesar Milan has fifty 'bad' dogs all the time it is a given

that it is the person and almost never the dog. He even has dogs who are mentally ill. I love him. He saved my pack.

[baldguy]

44. So that means we kill a random, unrelated dog 30 miles away? With no history of aggression?

That's exactly what the purveyors of anti-dog hype would have us do.

[seabeyond]

49. no

i am not into a bann. never have suggested it and not suggesting it now. what i do have issue with and the point of my post is a vague, ....

it is the owners fault. ok, i get that. so? there is still death and suffering because of it
all dogs are animals, hence capable. ya, and some more capable and likely than others. and can kill.

i dont like pretending otherwise.

it is something i think we have to just accept in our society. when i had 3 rots and then 2 pits next door to me, i had to accept it and take the precautions because the owner was unwilling to. it put a damper living here for a decade.

but i dont like the pretending that all dogs are equal. and there are no issues with the pit bull breed.

[undeterred]

23. Alec Baldwin is hosting Saturday Night Live.

I'm just sayin'.

[astonamous]

27. OMG!!!!!!!11! Again with the Alec Baldwin...

:silly:

[Marrah_G]

31. I absolutely agree

I also think large breed dogs that are capable of easily killing a human should have owners that are required to take a class before owning them and also be required for the dog and owner to pass a training course within the first few months.

Good breeders not only chooose families for their dogs carefully but also follow the progress of the dog. The problem with pit bulls comes from the humans who think it is a cool status symbol to own a dog that they know little about nor are capable of handling. Corrupt breeders take advantage of this and sell badly bred dogs to ignorant humans for cheap money.

If a breeder or shelter is not making you jump through hoops to own a dog... if they are not checking out who you are, who your vet is, and what you know about the animals then run away. When it comes to canines, cheap is not best.

The dogs end up at the pound and are more often then not put down.

IMHO there needs to be alot more regulation in regards to both breeding and ownership.

[Politicalboi]

34. I totally agree with the class

They should have full command of the animal.

[ErikJ]

32. All dogs eventually snap or lose temper, like humans.

The thing is, when pit bulls snap, they usually go all the way and kill whether it be another animal or a hunman. I have had many dogs and have to say the chihuahua is the worst, but they just cut the skin, whereas pit bulls will remove your face.

If you Google News -"Pit Bull Attack" you will see that pit bulls are indeed an extremely dangerous breed.Hundreds of tragedies per month.

[astonamous]

33. DOG AGGRESSION - Tia just posted this and is exactly what she told me years ago.

This is probably the biggest argument among the Pit Bull forums.....is it the way they're raised or.....is it "in their genes?" So for "argument's sake"...let's get ready to rumble! To answer this question you need to go back in time to what makes up the Pit Bull type dog. The first thing that comes to my mind is "terrier". Helloooo??? Can we say "feisty, scrappy and always on the go???" So common sense tells us that because of the "terrier" in the American Pit Bull Terrier or the American Staffordshire Terrier.....this is a dog that is going to keep us on our toes. Think of the Jack Russell Terrier.....yes that little dog that just keeps on going and going and going :) This is a breed that was bred for chasing down unwanted rodents. Thus the term "animal aggression" comes into play. And let's face it, Jack Russells are not only one of the smartest dogs ever, but they have the energy level of a tornado! They are like this because it's "genetic". Not all are like this but let's face it...most are. This is the life of a terrier.

Then you have your Labradors who love water. Again, not all but most. Then there are the Border Collies and Australian Shepherds who on a split second impulse will "chase" down anything that moves and herd it into whatever corner of the yard seems best. I know this by experience because my parents had Welsh Corgis and as kids we were constantly getting nipped in the ass and on the back of our legs. Why? It's called "genetics!" My parents never taught our Corgis to do this. Even as puppies they were constantly chasing our horses.

Okay so back to our breed. If I had a dime...Hell...a penny, for everyone that emailed or called and said, "I don't know what happened. My Pit Bull has been great with other dogs and then ALL OF A SUDDEN he attacked my neighbor's dog or went after a dog at the dog park" and of course my knee jerk response is always...."ah....what's the question?" It's like saying..."I don't know what's wrong with my Lab....he won't stay out of the swimming pool".

Now here's where the argument begins. There are those of us that have been around these dogs for not only years but have dealt with them in large amounts whether it be working at a shelter, or a vet's or a groomer, trainer, whatever. We sit back and say...."well......ah.....well.​...that's what Pit Bulls do sometimes." But then you have the group of owners who believe.......oh geez.....I'm preparing my flame retardant suit......the group that says....:"it's all in how you raise them." Okay....kinda.

Here's the dealio. Some of you have Pits that will NEVER EVER display dog aggression. Great! Congratulations! And yes, some of that should be credited to you as an owner for not putting your dog in a situation that warrants him/her to have to fight back. But more than likely you just got lucky and your Pit just has a kick back temperament combined with a lifestyle that keeps him out of harm's way and trust me...I wish all Pit Bulls could live like that.

But truthfully, in dealing with hundreds to thousands in my rescue career, most Pit Bulls that have come thru here, display some form of dog aggression. Maybe not full blown, "I want to kill another dog" but even so much as giving each other the "stink eye" has caused a ruckus. I'm not saying that your dogs are going to "snap" (geez I hate that word) and all of a sudden go on a doggie killing spree. But what I am saying is that most Pit Bulls (yeah yeah, go ahead and cuss me out) have that "genetic make up" of dog aggression. And though they may never display it, to deny it exists, is only potentially putting your dog in a situation that may cause him/her to fail. All I'm saying is just be aware that it may surface if pushed too hard (example: allowing a bunch of ignorant dog owners at the dog park to have their dogs run up on your Pit Bull) and you just need to be that "defensive driver" for your Pit Bull's sake.

When out in public, I never ever let some stranger come up to me with their dog and do the...."oh can my dog meet your dog?" Ah....that would be a big fat "NO". Don't let your Pit run off leash out in public. You never know what idiot may be around the corner. And I know this one is gonna piss some people off but I don't recommend dog parks. Good way to not only set your dog up for failure but the "what if" a dog fight happens. You've now put your Pit on the defensive and there is a good chance that he/she may now want to go after every dog he encounters. I've had dogs like this come to my training class after a bad dog park encounter and it takes some time to "unring that bell". Instead maybe find some people you trust and who's dogs you know and create play dates.

So no one says you have to take my words to heart but at least I can tell you these words come from 18 years and thousands of Pit Bulls later. I've learned from my mistakes and I would rather be safe than sorry. Like I said, if your Pit is dog friendly....HOORAY!! I'm jealous. But still just "be aware" and at least practice "safe Pit" :)

~Pit Tip From Tia
http://www.facebook.com/#!/VillalobosRescueCenter

[ErikJ]

36. Terrier=killer

That's what they were originally bred for, to kill vermin. Period case closed. Wish they could be used on GOP vermin.

[astonamous]

37. You and me both but they aren't bred to kill people...

although they are real good judges of character.

I have to be very careful about who comes over to the house.

Then again...

:dilemma:

[nashville_brook]

52. the root of "terrier" is actually "terra" -- for digging in the earth.

they are indeed bred to kill vermin, and as such have performed a very important role in human society. folks often get a small terrier thinking they're "easy" dogs -- but they actually be very demanding b/c of their instinct to hunt. it's a lot of dog in a small package.

[Strelnikov_]

35. Good case for legalizing ownership of heavy machine guns and grenade launchers

I mean, these weapons were developed . . bred . . to kill a fuck-o lot of people in a hurry. Now, if everyone just practices responsible ownership . . and we fix that endemic defect where the weapon just goes off at random . . things will be just great!!!

[flvegan]

38. Allow me:

1. Mostly true
2. First part ture, second part not true.
3. Wildly untrue. A submissive dog can be far worse than a dominant one.
4. They can, but the statement isn't ture.
5. True, but easily taken care of.
6. True, there are no bad breeds of dog. Size isn't the issue, though. Some potentially extremely dangerous dogs are easily dominated, some non-dangerous dogs are not so much. Size matters little.

[JVS]

40. Well then, what does one do to own a dog safely?

[flvegan]

41. One treats them like their child.

Knowing that their influence will go far in their development. Your influence can decide what kind of individual they are. You get a puppy, then you raise a dog. You adopt a dog, and you raise them correcting prior behavior.

Your "own" is "parent" for the most part.

[JVS]

42. Be more specific.

I don't rear children, nor do I raise dogs.

I'm asking more along the lines of, what are signs that your dog is developing violent tendencies and how does one correct that. The points I put in my OP were the ones that I had gleaned in my reading. While you offered an evaluation of the points, you did not offer alternatives. Thus your comments are less than useful.

I know that you're an expert in this, so I really do wish you'd give an answer more informative than flippant.

[flvegan]

43. My apologies.

Correct bad behavior in a positive manner, reward proper behavior in a positive manner.

Be the alpha, and act accordingly. It really is that simple.

"Violent tendencies" is subjective, so I really can't address it.

[JCMach1]

45. Having been chased by a pitbull (and nearly caught) I would disagree...

No other dog ever reacted that aggressively.

Some dog breeds are just too aggressive for the typical urban/suburban environments people live-in today.

[undeterred]

47. I have seen pit bulls at both ends of the spectrum.

There are some that I can tell just walking past them want to kill me and my dog... mostly they are dog-aggressive and were bred to fight. They will kill another dog.

There are others that are very gentle and are no different than a golden retreiver and play just fine with other dogs that have been raised properly.

You can't say its the breed because the breed is incredibly diverse. The owners of pit bulls are incredibly diverse. You have to evaluate each individual situation. Some owners are doing their best to take care of a breed that has been abused. Other owners WANT an agressive dog to make themselves look tough. Its like people... you take them one at a time.

[JCMach1]

54. It was a supposedly 'gentle' family dog

It had great owners...

I just think there much better genetic options for dog owners...

And yes there are bad dogs...

[surrealAmerican]

46. This sort of research will not be adequate.

You need to actually spend time with dogs to understand them.

A lot of people seem to overestimate breed influence on behavior. Each dog is an individual. You can raise two dogs of the same breed with the same "methods", they might be from the same litter even, and their behavior can be totally different. It's not even a question of dominance or submission. Personality is as complex in dogs as it is in people.

[TBF]

48. Training, training, training ...

there's no one breed you can put a bow on and sell as a finished product. You can certainly decide to get the right kind of dog to fit your lifestyle, but that is just step one. Properly socializing and training them (which is an ongoing process) is critical.

[nashville_brook]

51. totally agree -- no bad dogs. sadly, too many owners don't learn about their breed.

or, about what makes a dog tick (so to speak).