why occupy wall street is doomed to failure

[rdking647]

this isnt the mid east... we dont have a dictatorship...
in addition what began as a protest on wall street turned into a march to union square.... blocking traffic.
when you block traffic you get arrested. If the protestors had stuck to their original plan an dhad stayed downtown there would have been no arrests. but by marching and causing a confrontation with the cops they have pretty much put an end to their protests having much if any net effect..

[Fire Walk With Me]

1. Do you understand where we're headed if it doesn't succeed?

Don't reply to this, putting your thread on ignore. Can't waste time and energy on the negative...we're fighting the negative.

[rdking647]

4. thats the type of responce Id expect from the tea party

blah blah blah... I cant hear you so what your saying doesnt exist......

[October]

173. Actually I don't understand YOUR response...

[bluestate10]

196. Minimalist response. Don't agree with someone, but instead of battling on ideas, just

shove one's head up one's ass. Losing strategy every time.

[OHdem10]

2. Where would we be if the people in the 60s had been so willing

to give up before they got started. Protests are hard
work.

[Marrah_G]

3. People are starting to take notice.

It's starting to get talked about on social networks alot more. People are angry. People don't have jobs. The wealthy can only push this so far before there is a backlash.

[patrick t. cakes]

5. well thanks,

now get the fuck out of the way.

[white_wolf]

6. I'm confused about your argument.

Are you saying that getting arrested ruins any chance of a protest being effective? Do you have a clue about the history of labor in this country, people got arrested all the time and did much more than block traffic. Hell, Debbs conducted his third presidential campaign from inside a jail cell. Martin Luther King got arrested and his protests and actions were certainly successful.

[Scruffy1]

141. Here, here. You'll upset the law and order wing of the Democratic Party.

Gotta have a big tent, you know. Can't offend the gun nuts, capital punishment enthusiasts, scisssorbills, corporatists, and of course the worshippers of the boys in blue. I always carry a copy of MLK's letter from the Birmingham jail at all protests. Somehow it gives me more courage.

[bluestate10]

198. Reverend King always led protests that had a central theme behind them.

Just raising hell because one is fed up is no central theme, I say, no theme at all.

[ohheckyeah]

7. Lead, follow or get

out of the way.

[rdking647]

12. do what exactly is this movement demanding???

you have no coherent demands,no leaders etc...
basically you have a group of pissed off protestors but every one has something else they are pissed off about..
basically its anarchy... thats not an effective protest thats a mob...

If the message was arrest the crooks on wall street then shout it out.. name names... If its anti death penalty shout it out...
etc...

right now its just a mob of people with nbo clear message.. and as such is doomed

[cherokeeprogressive]

94. +1 "Hey, you wanna go to a protest? It'll be COOL, and I understand Dominoes is sending FREE pizza

let's GOOOOOOOO!

[Leopolds Ghost]

119. You keep saying no reason to protest-So tell me how is it our country is so much freeer than others?

[bluestate10]

197. Look.

You must understand that the modern progressive mindset on change is to get arrested, spend precious money paying fines, turn off the general public and get lots of wingnuts elected, those wingnuts subsequently take the country back twenty years, then progressives repeat the cycle. A disorganized protest that does not have a central theme other than people being fed up is bound for failure, and that is sad, because the country certainly needs to reign in Wall Street to save itself.

[Yo_Mama]

210. I don't get it either

I'm still trying to figure out the objective? What do the protesters expect to achieve?

[Marrah_G]

238. To bring focus to the huge problem that is Wallstreet.

And they are. More and more people are taking notice. Especially the younger generation.

[Yo_Mama]

248. I think everybody realizes that WS antics are awful

I was thinking more of a "how to deal with the awfulness" objective.

[Marrah_G]

255. Actually alot of people sadly dont pay attention until something bring it to their attention

Social messaging is also a great tool. If you post updates and stories everyday that drive home one point ~ 400 people in this country own more wealth then the bottom 150 million~ it is simple enough to get people thinking.

[PotatoChip]

185. +1000

[grntuscarora]

8. My God!

I had no idea they were blocking traffic. What were they thinking! :sarcasm:

[rdking647]

13. and that gets you arrested.. end of story

[patrick t. cakes]

28. matlock reruns are playing somewhere

[grntuscarora]

46. Actually

I don't believe it's the end of the story. Arrest a few people and a whole lot more people get angry and start asking why. And then you have a snowball effect.
http://october2011.org/

[Admiral Loinpresser]

62. Getting arrested is part of the process.

Resistance is not paddycake. This is a struggle to seize power from the 1% who are destroying America. If you respond, don't forget to say "blah, blah, blah." But go ahead and resist the tide of history, as the number of disaffected Americans grows daily (and the middle class shrinks).

[bluestate10]

199. Getting arrested with no central theme to articulate from jail is stupid. nt

[-..__...]

139. Self delete...

wrong spot to reply.

[October]

174. Noooo, that BEGINS the story, coverage, etc.

None of this was covered UNTIL the arrests, sprayings and police rough-handedness.

[bluestate10]

200. There is a woman in India that is and has been on a hunger strike

against corruption by her government. She has had more impact on a seriously wrong system than the thousands of people running around lower manhattan will have in a century. Tell me, why doesn't the people protesting go on a mass hunger strike? No free pizza, no water, nothing. Force the world to watch protesters starving on the sidewalks of Wall Street and lower manhattan. Force the suited bankers and fancily dressed office workers to step over and around starving protesters. The cameras will come, along with tv trucks, and the powers that be will surrender or look like demons for not surrendering. The true test of a person's dedication to an idea is the willingness to suffer, even suffer horribly for one central principle.

[saras]

232. Maybe the people she's protesting to have some humanity or ethics. Not here.

What you're proposing is giving the bankers exactly what they want, which is that the poor starve right in front of their faces while they drink champagne. It's not like they don't look like demons already.

And personally I've never found any value whatsoever to suffering. Not being saint material, like most people I know, it just makes me bitter, cynical, and sometimes even hateful. No, productive work doesn't feel like suffering at all. It feels like moving in the opposite direction, towards life and not towards death.

[Leopolds Ghost]

116. IN AMERICA, you can't get angry enough to block traffic, unlike ANY OTHER COUNTRY!!! Cuz we're FREE!

[GreenStormCloud]

155. By blocking traffic you are restricting the freedom of other people.

What gives you the right to obstruct others freedom?

[quakerboy]

203. Calling it a restriction of "freedom"

is a pretty big stretch, on several levels. I suppose if it was the only road that gets to a location, and a road was the only way to reach that destination, you might have the beginnings of an argument. But that's not the case.. NYC... Lots of roads, multiple forms of transportation, many ways to get somewhere.

Then again, by not allowing me to protest in the middle of a road, that obstructs my freedom. What gives you the right to obstruct my freedom?

Freedom is inherently limited, because any time two people have a different conception of what should happen with a finite resource, one or the other or both will not be able to see their vision come to fruition.

So who's freedom is more important?

[GreenStormCloud]

216. There are already laws on the books that give the auto traffic priority.

Exceptions are made for parades and such where application is made well in advance. The application has the possibility of being denied. There are other places for political demonstrations. Blocking traffic for your political cause is not a good reason. After all, you would be outraged if an Tea Party demonstration (without parade permit) tied up traffic.

[quakerboy]

219. Would I?

Actually, I happen to believe that peaceful demonstrations should be given a lot of leeway and priority. Even if they happen to be idiot racists.

And I also strongly believe that civil convenience laws, such as "auto traffic priority" are very much fair game when it comes to civil disobedience. And further that civil disobedience is one of the few options remaining to us in the face of the dominance of money.

[GreenStormCloud]

222. Civil disobedience means that you accept being arrested as part of the deal. N/T

[quakerboy]

225. Truth

I would even go so far as to say that the protestors should be peacefully forcing that option. I have stated before that I believe the only way we will see change are protests so large and so deliberate that we flood every prison and overflow containment, and still choke the streets, refusing to leave until change is delivered.

[GreenStormCloud]

227. The Wall St. protest is waaaaay too small for that.

Nothing will come of it.

[quakerboy]

234. Why sounds its deathknell before its done?

You are probably right. But it is still there, which means it could still grow. I would love to see it happen.

[booley]

186. I wish I could recommend your reply

pretty much sums up the problem.

Too many people saying we are free because we say we are free, so it;'s ok if we don't have freedom.

[Scruffy1]

142. Yeah, and a window was broken in St. Paul in 2008.

Eight were finally tried and convicted. A million were killed in an illegal war and millions were left in destitution and no one was punished. Anyone not hitting the streets is not paying attention.

[Zanzoobar]

9. They're going after the wrong people, in the wrong city.

That's the biggest problem.

[white_wolf]

11. Who should they be going after?

Capital is the enemy. The politicians in Washington are just their paid pawns.

[Zanzoobar]

20. Capital is the enemy. That's nice.

Without it your proposed social utopia won't work either.

Going after businesspeople won't get them anything. If it is as you say, their heads will get broken by the very pawns you mention.

They may as well go after the hotdog vendors around Central Park.

[white_wolf]

23. Capital is the enemy.

The working class should own and control the means of production and have full access to the fruits of their labor. If the capitalists want access to it, then they can get off their pampered asses and do some work.

The vast majority of the people in the world are working class. A mass strike could cripple the system and grind it to a halt. How long would the capitalist last when food stops getting delivered to stores, when gas stops being delivered to gas stations, when their cars break down and mechanics refuse to fix them, when their water supply is cut off, etc. Their pawns in Washington wouldn't be able to help them in that case.

[rdking647]

27. lets list all the devolpments your system has given us as opposed to the capitalistic society you ha

your typing on an internet message board..
the internet is a capitalist invention. as is the microchip powering your computer. the cable modem delivering that internet. etc etc..


now what has communism given us..
stalin,mao,castro,gulags,kgb....


I choose capitalism

[white_wolf]

34. Actually the internet was invented by the government not the private sector.

Oh,and for starters the Soviets, though I actually consider them state-capitalist,did give us the first satellite. Oh and a socialist gave us the theories of special and general relativity. Secondly, none of the people you listed are socialist.

[patrick t. cakes]

36. capitalism has given us Hitler,

Mussolini, modern China, the horrible Industrial Revolution...

I'll choose progress and moving forward, which is what other people want. Capitalism, unchecked and rabid, is dying, eating itself and us with it.

[rdking647]

42. damn that industrial revolution

increasing the living standards and per capita income of the world....

[patrick t. cakes]

43. the Industrial Revolution killed and maimed millions

and capitalism still does while reaping the benefits of wage slavery.

[GreenStormCloud]

99. So you want to undo the industrial revolution?

Do you really think you would be happy living a medieval life style, or as a hunter gather?

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. You might want to read Collapse by Jareed Diamond

And then connect a few dots to peak oil and global weather change. It might happen...and this time at a global scale.

[GreenStormCloud]

101. So you think you would be happy living as a hunter-gatherer? N/T

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. I would survive five seconds

But it has nothing to do with me. I recommend you read that. All civilizations have gone away. Some collapsed, like the Maya or Rome, others were superseded. Do you think we are immune to that?

[patrick t. cakes]

104. Doesn't matter

that's where we're heading. It's inevitable.

Do you think capitalism just meanders along for eternity creating worth less junk for people like you to sit and stare at?

[patrick t. cakes]

102. Yep

it's time. the ID and it's fruits has run it course.

Medieval Europe was unfortunately the victim of the rise of the most backward religion known to man, under those conditions, no.
There are places outside of Europe at that time, though, that had very egalitarian social structures. North America for one.

Hell the barbarians of Roman times were fairly egalitarian.

Could I live as hunter gatherer? Maybe not, but study hunter gatherer and other "primitive" cultures. They had, and still have, much more leisure time and less stress filled lives.

Capitalism is dying , the question is how we move forward.

[white_wolf]

184. We know how to move forward.

We must abolish private property and turn it over to worker control. When it was time for Europe to move forward from Feudalism to capitalism, the capitalist had to abolish the Feudal systems of property and replace it with the capitalist systems, we have to abolish private property itself.

[patrice]

128. Extreme characterizations of other's positions are either stupid or lacking in respect and, ergo,

not deserving respect for how their own conceits fail the tests of validity.

Almost no one wants to undo the industrial revolution.

Most people want a compromise with it that gives it a heart, instead of just a mouth that feeds on our lives to support fiat currency.

A human heart recognizes the REAL VALUE (in Adam Smith's sense of that term) of human lives.

[GreenStormCloud]

145. Certain posters here DO want to undo the industrial revolution.

Some here have a romantic view of pre-industrial societies as being peaceful, egalitarian, and at one with nature. The truth is far different from the romantic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. And some of us realize that climate change and peak oil

May actually lead to civilization collapse. It's not what we want...

I'd prefer we move AWAY from oil and into another energy source that allows us to keep chugging along...alas there is no political will for that in the corridors of power... So what are you gonna do?

A population collapse, and even a civilization collapse is not out of the equation.

[GreenStormCloud]

152. As oil prices rise people will look for cheaper more efficient alternatives.

Pressure will be brought to bear on policies that are restricting some of the alternatives. And people will look for more ways to conserve energy. Those alternatives will be come from industrial socities, NOT from any of the few remaining pre-industrial socities left.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. You realize the real price of gas is nowhere close to what you pay

If we paid the real price we'd all be using bikes.

Yes, once you add all externalities to it...and the cost of the military it is closer to 13 a gallon.

I suggest you read Paul kennedy's the rise and fall of great powers. Pay special attention to the UK and coal, and the us and oil...and then think china and solar.

[GreenStormCloud]

168. Solar is not yet economically viable.

And you have the problem of night, cloudy days, and maintenance of the mirrors/lenses. Nor can you use electricity for very high temperature needs, such as smelting steel.

As the price for any commodity rises people seek alternatives. As people seek those alternative entrepreneurs will provide them. You don't see many horses pulling wagons and carriges on city streets anymore do you?

Personally, I think biofuels will be developed as the answer. But they won't be developed because somebody marched in a demonstration. They will be developed because there will be money to be made for them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. Alas neither was oil on or around 1910

And you are wrong. Oil was (and still is, which makes zero sense) heavily subsidized.

Emerging technologies need that. Don't worry, like we replaced England which did not adapt fast enough to the new tech...and England replaced the Netherlands...(wind vs coal, 17th century) China will replace us.

Your faith in the hand though should be tempered by what Adam smith wrote on it...the list of caveats is long after the SINGLE mention of it in the Wealth.

[GreenStormCloud]

181. First oil well was drilled in 1859.

The Spindletop oil well was brought in in 1901. Oil was a commercial success well before 1910.

I did not say that oil was not subsidized. I grew up in the South Texas oil field where Dad worked daily checking on a set of oil wells. I myself worked on a semisubmersible drilling platform for ODECO, since bought out by Zapata.

Yes, I do have a good bit of faith in the power of the market. One only need to look at the illegal drug market in the U.S. to realize that where there is a demand a supply will orginate. Most innovations come from private enterprise.

The answer will be a combination of alternatives. But massive solar won't be it. Solar will mainly be used as supplements to homes and offices. A new type of wind turbine also looks promising for such supplements. Biofuels appear to be the best bet to replace oil.

[nadinbrzezinski]

183. And they will still need subsidies

Read Smith on the hand though. It s not a libertarian absolute, and for god sakes I think smith had a clue in the concept he created.

[GreenStormCloud]

209. I don't think you even read what I said in my previous post.

I rebutted your statement that oil was not commercially viable prior to 1910. Then I discussed possible alternatives, stating the biofuels appear to be most promising. And you respond with, "And they will still need subsidies".

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. Yes I did

And they still have subsidies to this day...and that is how the market works in the real world.

Search for strategic industries

[quakerboy]

208. Then why are so many places

putting solar into use?

There are ways of storing energy. chemical Batteries of course, but we will need other options if we are to work larger scale. Water seems the easiest to me. Tank up high, tank down low, pump it up with solar during the day, let it flow down over a turbine at night to reclaim the energy.

How often do you smelt steel? As it turns out you are wrong, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace#Advantages_of_electric_arc_furnace_for_steelmaking

The problem with what you say is that the prices of energy commodities are not subject to their real costs. And your statements indicating the market will take care of the problem are not borne out by reality. The mortgage market is the perfect example. How many people got terrible mortgages because they didn't know better, didn't really understand the fine print and the future cost of a balloon. Same deal with fossil fuels. The cost over time goes up, and as the environment is degraded, then the cost is paid. But in that way it comes hidden until it balloons and causes catastrophe.

[GreenStormCloud]

218. That article says that arc furnaces are mostly used for scrap steel.

Solar is only good for a few hours. There is a limited amout of sunlight that hits any part of the earth. Since the U.S. is pretty much all (Except FL and some of TX) above 30 degrees N latitude then you never get full direct sunlight. Even at best the sun will be about 7 degrees from zenith - at local solar noon. At mid-morning & mid-evening it will at, and below 45 degrees, resulting in a loss of 30+% of power. So you only have about 6 hours of good sunlight. That is for locations in the southern U.S. You can basically forget about usable power in northern locations.

In the worst of winter the sun will be at best only 38 degrees above the horizon at local solar noon. Lower in northern states. At that angle you won't get much solar energy. That's why we have winter.

The lenses or mirrors have to each move to track the sun so the energy is focused on the solar collector. All of those thousands of mirrors have to kept clean, almost daily. Dust and dirt on them strongly degrades their performance. That is expensive to keep thousands of giant mirrors clean.

Many places are using solar supplements to reduce grid power consumption during the day but massive solar plants just aren't working.

The best, and cheapest, solar collectors are plants. Let them convert solar energy into biomass (mostly hydrocarbons) and then process those hydrocarbons (leaves and stalks. Let people eat the food parts.) into oil. Check out http://www.thermaldepolymerization.org/ This appears to be promising.

[quakerboy]

224. I think you underestimate

In point of fact, If I could have gotten the approval from the owners, I could have supplied my entire electrical need with panels on my roof. That's not true everywhere, particularly in dense, areas, but I have less SF to use than pretty much any free standing dwelling, and I am not in a super sunny area. And that's with fixed panels, a few simple cleanings a year. I know others who have done successful installs and have essentially no electric bill most of the year.

The biggest thing is storage. And there are possible and practical ways to store some of the excess.

Other energy sources will be necessary as well. But there is no need to denigrate or down talk Solar to look toward those things, or to acknowledge that the current market in oil is not healthy, sustainable, or wise.

[GreenStormCloud]

228. I am denigrating "big" solar, not small solar.

By small solar I refer to the type things you want to do. Storage isn't a problem as when you are producing excess energy the electric meter simply runs backwards.

Big solar, meaning large scale solar plants will never be viable.

[quakerboy]

233. I strongly believe that small solar can be big

If it were on every rooftop, the amount of difference that would make is huge. And If everyone had it, there would be excess in many places during a sunny day. At which point storage does become a potential need. Wind has a similar problem, it is not a constant in many places. Adding storage would provide a way to use these sources practically as a larger proportion of our energy supply.

I can see some limited application even for Solar plants. Maybe not huge ones, but smaller installations dotting some parts of the country side, the way windmills and oil pumps do now. Or, I saw a while back someone was trying to figure out dual use road surface/solar. If that could be done, it could put out some pretty massive power if enough was put in.

[GreenStormCloud]

235. You can't get around the laws of physics.

Even small solar is only good for about six hours a day and then only in the summer. Wind has limitations but at least it often blows in winter and at night and on cloudy days. A new design will work with winds of only 2 mph, mounts on a rooftop, and is fairly quiet.

[quakerboy]

244. Strawman

Solar can supply more than a household needs during those "6" (I would argue its more like 8-10) hours a day (and it works in winter as well, sun does happen then, even in the absence of heat), then some of that can be stored and used during off times. Same thing with wind. If it can supply a bit more than is needed on a very windy day, and that can be stored and used when you are becalmed, then you have another margin.

Again, did I say that we will never need other energy sources? No. But with proper application, with wind and solar, our needs to burn anything would be very much reduced. If we only have to use them on, say, calm, cloudy days, that gives us the room to look at, for instance, biofuels, and be able to use them on a sustainable level to fill additional need, rather than as a primary energy source, having to provide so much it taxes both our food infrastructure and our environment.

[patrice]

180. True. But that position is not the norm for Progressives and Liberals.

I don't believe about half of what I see on the internets, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much opportunity for really effective shit stirring and making certain selected other positions look bad.

:hi:

[GreenStormCloud]

182. True. I was responding to a poster who has stated that the industrial revolution was a bad thing. N

[dionysus]

237. it's hip to romaticize living in the woods... while typing on a computer and enjoying modern

technology...didn't you know?

;)

[Cats Against Frist]

249. LOL nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. My, my that word don't mean what you think

It means.

[Marrah_G]

243. Your system gives us 400 people who own more then the botton 150 million

Your system gives us healthcare based on making profits by reducing or rejecting care. Imagine that? Getting rich by denying coverage for needed treatments just to get a bonus?

Your system gives us companies that find every way possible to avoid taxes, even though what those taxes pay for got them where they are.

Your system keeps shrinking the salaries of the working class while those who shuffle imaginary goods and imaginary money around desks make billions and their clients pay less in taxes then all of us.

You system gives us mothers like myself who have to work 2 jobs, one at minimum wage, just to support my small apartment and sons while those who contibute the least in society hoarde more money then they could ever spend.

They don't put money back into businesses or give raises..... they just hide the money away collecting dust while gaining more money through interest.

You have been fooled by this shell game that capitalism has become.

Just like the alot of people, you have some strange idea that if you just work hard enough, you too can become the next Sam Walton. Its a fantasy.

[Zanzoobar]

29. You'd turn all the proles into capitalists by turning over the means of production.

Even so, it takes capital. It's not the enemy. Get real.

[white_wolf]

37. The capitalist class is the enemy.

The proletariat would not be capitalists, because in a socialist society there would only be the working class.

[rdking647]

39. good luck with that.......

[Zanzoobar]

41. You mean in a "utopian" society, not a "socialist" society.

There is always a ruling class. There are always rich and poor in every society.

Your beliefs are cartoonish.

[white_wolf]

44. I'll let Einstein know his beliefs are cartoonish.

Secondly, there hasn't always been rich and poor. The Native American societies were much more egalitarian than their European counterparts. They didn't recognize such concepts as private property, hell even anarchist Spain managed to grant power to the working class for a time. It could very well have succeeded if it wasn't crushed by Franco's fascists and betrayed by the Stalinsts.

[Zanzoobar]

47. Ah, the old appeal to authority.

It won't work here. As a matter of fact, it appears that Al may be overturned on many things very shortly.

Feel free to expound on your Einstein equivalence.

[white_wolf]

51. If you are talking about the discovery of particles breaking the speed of light,

then you should know that General Relativity would remain intact, Special would take a hit.

[Zanzoobar]

54. I was talking about your appeal to Einstein's science as a way to bolster your argument

[white_wolf]

60. Well when you dismiss belife shared by one of the most brillaint men in the last 100 years

as cartoonish it really makes you look ignorant. I doubt you even know what socialism is.

[Zanzoobar]

68. It still won't work.

You'll have to argue the point.

[white_wolf]

70. First of all, define socialism and communism for me.

Once you've proven you know what they are then we'll talk, but I don't like wasting my time arguing with ignorant people.

[Zanzoobar]

72. I'm using your definition.

[white_wolf]

77. No, I want to know what you think they are.

I already know you have no clue what they are since you mentioned Stalin, Mao, KGB, etc., in another post. Until you actually learn what those words mean, I'm wasting my time.

[Zanzoobar]

78. Here ya go, but you already know it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1999594#1999686

[white_wolf]

81. Exactly my point. Your definition of communism has nothing do with communism.

I'm done arguing with you. Your ignorance getting old. Go read a few books on the subject then we will talk, but I don't waste my time with people who define communism as quote: "stalin,mao,castro,gulags,kgb...."

[Zanzoobar]

82. I was discussing it in your terms.

Take your ball and run away.

[white_wolf]

84. No, your link was to your post.

You are completely ignorant of what communism is and thus I really don't see the point in wasting my time with someone as ignorant as you. Like I said read a few books on the subject, until then welcome to ignore. Not only are you completely ignorant you are also firmly on the side of the ruling class and I don't waste my time with people like you.

[Zanzoobar]

87. The link was to your post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. In the famous words of Iñigo Montóya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Let's start with the basics

Define socialism

Social democracy

Communism

And mixed economy

Free clue the us actually implemented one of these under a REPUBLICAN president and used principles of a second, like for real...

[GreenStormCloud]

96. Because he was a genius in one area doesn't mean he was right about everything. N/T

[patrick t. cakes]

45. Wow. "there is always a ruling class..."

what a sheepish mentality. Fuck the "ruling" class.

my god.

[Zanzoobar]

49. It is a matter of fact.

[patrick t. cakes]

52. Take a course in anthroplogy

it's not a "fact"

[white_wolf]

63. Hell I learned that in Anthropology 101.

[patrick t. cakes]

66. exactly..........

[Zanzoobar]

69. My mistake.

I didn't know we were talking about pre-history.

What period in human development are we talking about?

I'm confused.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Actually like very modern in the Kalahari, and the Amazon

As well as some of the societies encounters during European expansion starting in 1492.

[Zanzoobar]

76. Is that what we're talking about?

Now I'm really confused.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. You said that no society ever had those principles

I believe Toynbee, far from a commie, called it primitive communism. That is a fifth term you should try to define if you are really interested in knowledge.

[Zanzoobar]

83. I thought we were talking about the real world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. So you are telling me those societies are not part of the real world

So when are you joining to do your duty for King and Country? They sure believed that.

Sixth term to look up..."WHITE MAN'S BURDEN."

[Zanzoobar]

86. Good lord.

It's not the topic of conversation. Please refer to the beginnning of this conversation to get back on track.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Yeah the topic of discussion

Is that you are clueless, proud of it, and unwilling to learn. For the record, once again, the US implemented, as in national policy, under a REPUBLICAN no less, a policy called mixed economy, with aspects of SOCIAL DEMOCRACY. It worked well. A history book or two would benefit, alas your ideas are cartoonish at best, full of the worst kind of cold war propaganda at worst.

So good luck with that one. Learning what things are beyond cartoons is a good idea. After all unfettered capitalism gave us hitler, Stalin, Franco, Pinochet, Somoza, and a few others. That does not mean it's evil, now is it? So are you ready to actually try to learn or is red baiting all you are gonna do?

[Zanzoobar]

91. So, I'm a proponent of unfettered capitalism.

How did you infer that? I can hardly argue a point assigned to me if I don't believe in it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. I did not say that

I said you are using a cartoon, propaganda laden definition of what you think communism is...so please define Tge following terms

Communism

Socialism, no they are not the same thing

Social democracy

Mixed economy

Get away from the cartoons please.

For the record, each of these takes books to study properly, further free clue communism in it's most primitive form goes back to 50k or so BCE, and it still exists..

Socialism goes back to at least the 1740s in the us peaking in the 1820 s communes...

Mixed economy is a 20th century creation as well as social democracy

Now red baiting is older than Marx. Heck he was suckling from mama's bussom best case.

So do you really want to learn or should we pack this discussion?

[Zanzoobar]

97. I was using white_wolf's definitions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. My apology not yours but not hers either

rdking647 (964 posts) Sun Sep-25-11 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. lets list all the devolpments your system has given us as opposed to the capitalistic society you ha

your typing on an internet message board..
the internet is a capitalist invention. as is the microchip powering your computer. the cable modem delivering that internet. etc etc..


now what has communism given us..
stalin,mao,castro,gulags,kgb....


I choose capitalism
My photography sites http://www.jeffcohen.smugmug.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/rdking647/sets/

[patrick t. cakes]

88. my god

[Leopolds Ghost]

121. Then why are you a liberal?

I've heard it said "the poor you will have with you always".

But I've never heard it said "the evil you will have with you always."

Of course in this age of moral relativism people don't believe in evil so they have no reason to oppose the concept of a ruling class, or killing people, or anything else that is within their comfort zone, on conceptual grounds. They only oppose what the media tells them to oppose.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Lemme see

Anthropology might be in order

Perhaps archeology

Oh and really ancient history...

[FrodosPet]

188. Are managers and supervisors part of the ruling class?

What about military leaders? How do you get people to focus on a specific agenda with a specific plan of action?

I'm not sure if I get your point. Didn't most American Indian tribes have chiefs and tribal councils?

Has their ever been a "non local" diverse and geographically significant population which did not have a subset of leadership? Particularly in the post industrial age? They might make an interesting case study on how to ramp up egalitarianism to a national and global scale.

[patrick t. cakes]

50. and there is not always a ruling and slave class.

take an anthro. course

[Tsiyu]

89. Jayzuss they get dumber and dumber

:rofl:


I suppose it's never heard of 'Gross National Happiness' either.

"Every culture in the world is exactly the same and always has been!" "That's just the way it is!!"


Except it isn't. :rofl:

[patrice]

135. It appears that we are talking to a machine.

[Tsiyu]

136. Or one with arms enfolded around his pile o' gold

Spending every waking moment protecting that pile - so afraid of losing it, there is simply no way he will delve into any research on the many various societies humans have formed.

With a little insight, he'd have to admit what a schmuck he is.

[patrice]

130. There are no "absolutes". The questions are about the relative sizes & functions of each type of per

sons.

[bluestate10]

201. Bullshit to your claim of pampered ass.

Some rich people inherit their money. Some rich people, including many really progressive people worked their asses off and took enormous risks to start businesses. Don't get refusal to pay one's fair share of taxes confused with risk taking, the two are not intertwined. Socialism without risk takers in the mix won't work. Name one modern or past society where the last sentence is or was not true.

[EFerrari]

10. LOL

[patrice]

16. 1++++ . . . some people!!!

[patrice]

14. I'm not sure that you are the sole proprietor of the definition of "effects", let alone of the

significance of same.

[leftstreet]

15. It's Capitalism that's doomed to failure n/t

[rdking647]

17. and what exactly is going to replace it???

[leftstreet]

18. Why does it need to be replaced? If you want rich people to profit from labor, keep the Capitalism

:shrug:

[white_wolf]

19. Socialism. n/t.

[rdking647]

22. not in this lifetime.........

[patrice]

25. more authoritarian assumptions about definitions. nt

[white_wolf]

26. You don't know that.

Leon Trotsky's father once told him to give up his socialist views because the Tsarist order was good for another 300 years.

[rdking647]

30. communism is a failed ideaology

[patrice]

38. Not all socialism is communism. nt

[patrice]

40. Hell, communism wasn't even communism. nt

[Zanzoobar]

74. And why was that?

[patrice]

92. Because it was co-opted by Stalin and turned into a state controlled political oligarchy..

It wasn't classless and it wasn't stateless.

Social institutions weren't open; party oligarchs only associated with party oligarchs; workers with workers; military with military.

If there was common ownership of the means of production that didn't translate into common control of those resources so that they would produce more of what the common owners needed or desired, ended up with too many tractors and not enough shoes.

There may have been an end to wage labor, but party elite had private property, or at least property that was not accessible to the non-elite.

[Zanzoobar]

105. And there we have it.

The real world of socialist utopia.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. Please define socialism...

I know I can't get you away from the cartoon.

[Zanzoobar]

107. There are plenty of models to choose from

I don't think one can define it specifically. I can get you a dictionary definition if you don't know what it is.

On edit. Let me say I think this conversation is not going to get us anywhere.

The topic of discussion was: Capital is the enemy.

We're far astray.

On second edit, I got lost in the thread. I guess I was responding to comments made upstream. Sorry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. On third thought you are finally unto something

Your problem is a strict MARXIST analysis. But as you said not only one definition...congratulations, we are moving away from the cartoons.

[rdking647]

120. heres my question for the marxists

lets say the workers control the means of production..lets say the own for example Intel..
now Intel needs to build a new chip plant.. that costs a billion dollars.
where do they get the money?? from their employee/owners? Intel has 82k employees.AM i to assume that each emplyee is going to chip in 12k???? if not where to they get the capital to build the new plant?

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Actually you might want to ask a few cooperatives

Around the world that work just fine and dandy, even in the us.

To answer this in a very technical manner...and that has never happened, why both capitalism as Smith envisioned and Marxism as Marx envisioned are Utopias...at that point you'd be in a post economic phase where social needs, not money, determine this. In fact, it be a perfect democracy. As I said just as much of an utopia asps yes, Smith and the classic economic models.

Alas I live in the real world and know this.

[FrodosPet]

189. Start up and expansion capital

The treasury mints another platinum coin and deposits it in the Federal Reserve. Then it writes a check to Intel.

With one trillion dollar coin, 5 grams of platinum, they could open 1000 plants and put 82 million people to work.

:sarcasm:

But seriously, they would have to show whatever government agency was in charge of such things the human needs justification for the plant and receive a grant to build it.

[patrice]

117. Just like ours, only it wasn't corporations NEEEEEEEEEDing corporate welfare. nt

[bluestate10]

204. Human nature is what causes pure socialism to fail.

Some empowered group will grab for more power than others, the end being the collective serving a small group of elites. In a sense, no different from capitalism in it's worse form.

[white_wolf]

59. The same could be said of democracy. How many times did it fail?

The Greek democracies decayed into tyrannies. Various democratic revolutions in Europe were crushed. As to communism, lets say how well you do when you have to: jump-start a backwards economy, survive a civil war against an enemy backed by 17 rival nations and survive a world war. That was what Lenin and Trotsky had to deal with. Let's see if you can do any better. Oh, and during the middle of all this you die. Then after your death, the very man whom you said should be removed from power, gains absolute power and exiles your friend and closest ally. Let's see how well you do in those circumstances.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Again, let's start with basics

Define socialism

Social democracy

Communism

And mixed economy

Free clue the us actually implemented one of these under a REPUBLICAN president and used principles of a second, like for real...

[bluestate10]

202. Name one socialist society that has worked?

Don't point to Scandinavia, none of the countries there are socialist, NONE. If you reject that last claim, explain to me how some of the wealthiest people in the world own businesses and live in those countries and how some of the most successful companies in their niche originated there?

[markpkessinger]

21. If preserving the flow of vehicular traffic has become our highest priority . . .

. . . then one wonders if there is anything left worth preserving about this country.

[rdking647]

24. you dont get to pick and choose which laws to obey

[DrunkenBoat]

31. actually, you do.

[rdking647]

32. and when you pick and choose you get arrested.

just like today...

[patrice]

35. The point is that you can choose if you want to. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Oohh boy

Where would the underground railroad be with that thinking?

[patrick t. cakes]

58. +1

[DrunkenBoat]

64. good they have good americans like you working for them.

[white_wolf]

75. Where would the labor movement be if they all thought like you?

Oh, wait I know. Nowhere! We would all be working for pennies a day, with no benefits, no weekends, no overtime,no 8-hr day, no 40 hour week. But at least you would be able to see your kids because they would be working right alongside you.

[markpkessinger]

109. Getting arrested is part of the bargain with civil disobedience ...

... but that's not the issue here. The issue is the malicious and unnecessary use of force by the NYPD as they made those arrests. There is no moral or legal justification for it.

[bluestate10]

205. Getting arrested and having a coherent argument that one can explain from jail,

is how protests force change. Running around willy nilly with vague objectives is just a waste of everyone's time.

[Leopolds Ghost]

124. Rdking, do you know about liberal civics? Were you taught the civil rights movement as a kid

I am just asking. If you WERE, then you know where I am going with this.

If you are ignorant of civics however, Gandhi's theory of civil disobedience and all that,

You will probably feel insulted by this line of questioning.

[rdking647]

126. comparing this protest to the civil right movement is silly

the civil right movement was against the discrimination of a race of people simply based on color..

comparing a couple hundred (or even thousand) protestors in NYC demanding who know what to the civil right movement is stupid..

and like ive asked before... what exactly is occupy wall street demanding??????

[Leopolds Ghost]

176. Well, I guess we don't have momentous issues to face now as we did then?

All I know is that in the 60s (and even the 50s, contrary to most assumptions) in many ways we had more freedom then than we do now.

[bluestate10]

211. The OP was not asking what you answered.

The issue is not that there are not momentous issues all around. The issue is how does a person or a group of people confront people in power to force change. Running around getting arrested without a central theme is not an effective method, that will simply harden the hard hearted and cause those that can be swayed to back away. The great protesters in history like Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Steven Bilko all drove their protests around central themes which they easily articulated as if those themes were physically part of them. Anything else simply wastes the time and efforts of many people.

[October]

177. You don't seem to understand what they are protesting.

You say they are "...demanding who know <sic> what..."

[bluestate10]

212. Then you explain what they are protesting.

Are the protesting the lack of loans from banks? Are they protesting the actions of banks on home foreclosures? Are they protesting the two way street between Wall Street and the federal government? Explain, you seem to have the answers.

[bluestate10]

207. You will find that some on DU often make false equivalencies.

For example, calling reasonably progressive people fascists because one does not agree with a point of view. Or calling people that despise teabaggers with a burning hatred, a teabagger. There is a cliche of cool people on DU that immediately set anyone that question their arguments to ignore, better to ignore disagreement than confront it on the battlefield of ideas. Try ignoring someone coming at you with a bat and see how that works out, yet, even as current events say their methods are wrong, there is a DU cliche that adheres to a demand of absolute purity.

[Marrah_G]

240. All protests start out small

Some grow and some fade away. This one is beginning to grow. Occupywall street is not "demanding" anything- they are trying to bring focus to a very important problem in our country. They are trying to wake people up to what is happening.

[patrice]

33. Wrong: depends upon 1 of 2 things: your economic class or whether one is willing to deal with the

consequences of one's out-lawerry

[Leopolds Ghost]

123. FREEDOM! We're FREE to DRIVE wherever we want to! That is the ESSENCE of freedom n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

48. And here I thought it was because a group smaller than the number of cube rats on...

one floor of 127 John St with no coherent strategy, demands, or power base thought it could change the world's center of finance.

(Just like half a million people marching in DC stopped the Iraq invasion.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Read a tad on the protest movement on or about 1960

You would have been justified to laugh if somebody told you of Chicago 1968

Yes, history has echoes and often it rhymes.

[Katashi_itto]

56. I think when fiat money simply collapses we will get

real change. I am all for the protests, but I think the entrenched power structures that are protect the status quo wont change until a general collapse.

[patrice]

122. That's THE basic issue. Everything IS about money. + Money has no Real Value. = We have no control

over the value of our own lives.

Especially since the right to organize is not respected.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

61. We have a long history of persons being arrested for their

actions in this country, for standing up for what they believe in.
All actions change, some dieing out, some getting larger and changing history.
Maybe this is the time to push back nationally, maybe not.
Time will tell.
Don't be to quick to judge.

[bluestate10]

213. I believe.

That as a citizen of the world, I am part owner to everything on this planet. So, in light of my strong believe, I will walk into a jewelry store and take one gold watch, because I partly own all the gold, quartz, leather or steel on earth and want to take a piece of my owning. What do you think would happen to me? My belief is perfectly right, I AM part owner of everything on earth, along with every other living thing on earth.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

230. Do you have a point somewhere in there?

And your share of that watch split 7 billion ways (just the humans) would be very small.

[Desertrose]

93. Not doomed to fail this time.....

....things are different...changing now.

[markpkessinger]

108. "If only those civil rights marchers had stayed put in Selma . . .

. . . and not insisted on marching to Montgomery..."

[patrick t. cakes]

110. yep, and many "liberals" of the day wanted them to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Well those dang kids...

What were they thinking?

:sarcasm:

[Leopolds Ghost]

125. They were blocking the lunch counter. But at least they weren't blocking traffic. Big difference.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. Really?

What they did was seen as a much greater affront.

[bluestate10]

214. You distort what the OP asked. The question was what are the Wall Street protesters

protesting? The marchers from Selma to Birmingham had a clear and central themes behind their march, and each person marching knew and could articulate that theme.

[backscatter712]

113. Concern noted.

[fasttense]

114. Do you even read your own posts?

You sound so much like those RepubliCONS who get paid for posting lies and RW talking points on liberal sites.

You should look into that. I'm sure they pay well.

[rdking647]

115. so what exactly does occupy wall street want??

specifics please...

[Highway61]

129. Justice

Justice is what is sought - plain and simple justice.

Justice for those who created derivatives, reverse credit default swaps, mortgage backed securities, the collapse of Lehman Brothers, Bear Sterns, AIG, etc.

Justice for those who divorced risk from return.

Justice for those who walked away with billions and many more who walked away with millions while devising schemes that put us in the economic mess we're in today.

Also to bring focus to the fact that our economy no longer works for the benefit of the vast majority of Americans and to bring attention to the vast concentration of wealth.

The S&L crisis (another mess created by deregulation) resulted in over a 1000 people being put in prison. The approximate cost was $300 billion, this mess these financial elites perpetrated upon us is in the trillions and last I knew no one has been sentenced to prison for their part in this. Why is that?

Finally, if you have to ask that question you've either been living under a rock or you're in bad need of a surgical procedure to remove your head from your ass.

[rdking647]

131. what kind of justice???

what crimes did they commit??? and who committed them?? specific please.....

[Highway61]

132. What is your answer?

You seem to be good at asking questions....what's your answer? Just go merrily along with this mess that these supposed financial geniuses created? Let them take their billions and walk away unscathed? That we should do nothing? That we should bend over and take it with a smile?

Stop being so condescending and step up with your own answers.

At least these people in the street have some convictions. Do you have any? If so, what are they? "Specifics please"...

P.S. Are you that guy in Bill Maher's bubble last week???

[rdking647]

134. your at least the first person to ask me

i have a very easy way to rein in wall street... and as someone who spent 20+ years there I know a thing or 2 about how it operates...

making vague demands isnt going to do squat...
heres what should be done..
make an example of a wall street firm.. Im going to use BAC as an example..
going after thm for the derivative stuff isnt going to work.. like it or not it was legal,
they have commited fraud . its been shown time and again such as with the robosigning of foreclosure docs... what you do is indict the bank. not individuals but the corporation as a whole. charge the corporation with a felony..
if the corporation is convicted they are done.. out of business.. a corporation convicted of a felony loses its ability to trade on wall street Its locked out of the financial industry. Look at what happened to the accounting firm of arthur anderson. convicted of criminal charges and done as an accounting firm..

thats what should be done.. and you really only have to do it to one big firm... that will be enough to bring the rets in line

[dionysus]

239. now let's see what kind of response you get.

[HughBeaumont]

162. Ever see the movie "Inside Job"?

I've taken compliance courses at my bank and could probably find at least a dozen violations based on failure of disclosure, improper (bordering on illegal) underwriting and general dishonest investment practices alone. Where was the SEC during this period of financial bubble inflation?

[pmorlan1]

187. Smug & Condescending

I see posts like this all the time. People spew out perfectly ridiculous positions and then expect everyone else to educate them. It's a total waste of time. If they were serious they would investigate for themselves. I wouldn't waste my time responding to them with specifics because they don't care and it's quite obvious that they just want to disrupt. It's truly pathetic.

[bluestate10]

215. Have the protesters articulated your theme?

Or, are you just writing what you think they are protesting about? The great protesters in history, such as Nelson Mandela ALL had theme that they could state while protesting, and NO one was confused about what they protested against.

[Marrah_G]

241. They want to shine a bright light on the corruption and greed on wall street that is destroying us

[Harmony Blue]

118. Ironically

the more people post that these protests are doomed the fail, the more the coverage appears to be intensifying.

[lunatica]

127. Every serious activist who actually changed the world was arrested at least once

Some, like Mandela for many years. What makes you think they didn't want to get arrested? Or do you think they're just too dumb to think of that when they blocked traffic?

[bluestate10]

217. And every single one of those activists had a clear message that NO one

was confused about. The Wall Street protesters don't remotely rise to that high standard.

[Lucian]

133. I don't see you leading a protest somewhere.

[Warren Stupidity]

137. we have a plutocracy and it needs to be overthrown

we are perhaps doomed to failure because americans are too fat drunk and stupid to figure out just how screwed they are.

[-..__...]

140. Arrested? They're lucky that's all that happened to them.

Any pinheads blocking traffic and/or others ability to move about freely, is asking for and deserves a fastball to the face.

The cops did them a favor by saving their asses before it got ugly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. You'd prefer target practice on them right?

I luuuve them law and order types...

:sarcasm:

[-..__...]

149. I imagine one would need a permit for that?

But... seeing as it's NYC, good luck getting one.

[pinboy3niner]

150. What is truly ugly is the stifling of dissent in America

Some would deny the people's rights because the permits they got were not the 'proper' permits.

[Ikonoklast]

165. For some here, it all depends on which rights those are.

Your right to Free Speech curtailed?

Tough for you.


MY right to own firearms curtailed?

CALL CONGRESS RIGHT NOW!1!!!!1

[-..__...]

166. "Your right to Free Speech curtailed?"

Would that included the anti-choice factions "right" to block the entrance to abortion providers or scream obscenities in the faces of patients?

[Ikonoklast]

169. Let's go there.

Do right-wing paramilitary groups in this country dedicated to the overthrow of this goverment have the right to bear arms?

[-..__...]

171. Yes, without question they do.

And there's nothing in Federal law, or ATF rulings/regulations that prevents them from doing so.

What they don't have the right to do is interfere, or deny the rights of others by use of their firearms.

Their talk and rhetoric is cheap, but up until the time they actually put their arms into service... or overstep their bounds into unlawful activities, then they have the same rights as you, I or anyone else.

[Ikonoklast]

178. Same as with any protestors.

Their right to protest should never be curtailed, unless they are breaking the law.

I see people being arrested for walking on the sidewalk.


That is not lawbreaking, they have just as much a right to walk on the sidewalk as anyone else.


Sorta like the right-wing paramilitary organizations whose stated purpose is the overthrow of the elected government of the United States...just walking down the sidewalk.

[-..__...]

192. You haven't been paying attention...

have you?

They were breaking the law by disrupting/blocking traffic.

I agree with the spirit and purpose of the protests.

It's their methods and "why should I give a fuck about anyone else?" attitude that's contemptible.

That's been my beef since I first posted in this thread.

I'm not disputing that they (the people), have a right to protest, but they do not have the right to do so when the results denies the rights of others.

That's just selfish, ignorant and inconsiderate behavior.

You want to make sacrifices?... fine.

But don't force your beliefs on others and then expect them to support your cause.


So... anyhow, back to my previous question...

Would (the curtailing of free speech), also included the anti-choice factions "right" to block the entrance to abortion providers or scream obscenities

in the faces of patients?

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Thanks for the answer

You'd like that

Let me add some others for your target practice...

The yeoman farmers in the 1740 s in New Jersey

The revival about the same time

Did I mention the spirit of 1776.

Oh my the underground railroad of course...

Did I mention the labor movement?

Those silly kids at Woolworth on or about the early 1960s

Did I mention those silly marchers out of Selma?

Definitely the Chicago Eight.

There were people back in the day that saw all these groups as valid well..targets...the list is far from inclusive...what you are seeing, why it's a threat to the law and order types, is a challenge. Get used to it...it started in WI and it is just accelerating. If the people in the corridors of power got any brains...good joke, they'd realize this. If they don't, balls in play...and class warfare might just come to reacquire it's real meaning. So as they used to say, lead, follow or get out of the way.

[-..__...]

163. Then take it directly to the powers that be.

Preventing people from conducting their business, getting to work, going about their daily lives creates a rift, frustration and anger and amongst those

the protesters claim to be representing.

You think the cabbie working 12-14 hour shifts trying to make his fares gives a fuck about Wall St/bankers and stock brokers?

Or the guy trying to make it to his waiters job on time so he doesn't get fired for being late?

They're not going to blame the Gordon Gekkos of the world making their lives more difficult for them; instead they're going to see a clusterfuck of hooligans in Guy Fawkes masks and circus garb shitting on their day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. Alas that's how civil disobedience works

The Selma marchers were quite uncomfortable and blocked a road too...

As to your taxi driver and your waiter...you think they don't connect this to banisters? Even polls tell us otherwise.

What you are seeing is an emerging class consciousness.

No, it's not instant, it never is...but that is what you are seeing. Why they first tried to ignore and now it's repression..Bloomberg missed history of civil movements. When you sick the cops people pay even more attention.

[patrick t. cakes]

179. if you were watching the live stream yesterday

cabbies were high fiving the marchers.

Why would you think cabbies wouldn't care about Wall Street? Or injustice?

[-..__...]

194. Was this before, after or during they were blocked in traffic?

I'd wager for every cabbie "high fiving", there were 3 others flipping them the finger and cursing in Creole, Russian, Spanish, etc and not giving a

flying fuck about Wall St. and caring more about picking up their next fare.

What about the passengers?

Yeah... they must have been thrilled sitting there listening to the crackling of megaphones, drum beats, and techno dance music while the meter is

running.

[patrick t. cakes]

220. hey, watch the live stream

your wrong.

[Warren Stupidity]

159. wouldn't you be more welcome elsewhere?

[-..__...]

164. Why... is there a problem?

[lunatica]

148. Do you pine for a police state so you don't have to deal with people blocking traffic?

It sounds like it.

[-..__...]

153. And by blocking/impedeing the flow of traffic...

you supply the police state with just the excuse it needs to take action, and in the process, unnecessarily alienate/piss-off God knows how many

people that might otherwise have been on your side.

Yeah... that's real brilliant thinking.... and then they'll sit there scratching their heads wondering what went wrong.

[lunatica]

161. And just as many people will be on their side for being arrested by thugs

Including some in those cars.

[GreenStormCloud]

170. Not even so.

The typical commuter wants to get to work and earn a paycheck, isn't that political, and will be pissed off at the demonstrators for blocking traffic. Most people are apathetic until they are personally inconvenienced and then they are angry at the ones the inconvenienced them.

[-..__...]

175. Winning hearts and minds...

is a difficult task.

It's even more difficult when your methods end up shafting the people you're trying to reach or sway to your position.

[LanternWaste]

250. I imagine many people believe themselves clever enough to posses...

I imagine many people believe themselves clever enough to posses absolute knowledge of what others may or may not 'deserve'...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

147. FREE MUMIA! LEGALIZE IT! SAVE DARFUR!

It's going to fail because despite what FAUX and O'Lielly claim, liberals don't have a well funded organized group behind them who can hire paid protesters like the teabagging astroturfers that know about focus and message.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. The tea bag is astroturf

This s the real thing. Think us on or about 1960. If you said there be a riot in 1968 in Chicago in 1960, we'd be justified to laugh...

It's just getting started.

[Chan790]

253. Without a leader or cause to coalesce around...

it's just cacophony. Swarms of hornets get stirred up and die down a lot...if this is going to go anywhere, it needs direction. Of course, direction will seem like oppression from within because part of directing resistance is ending all other compass points. If it's about Wall St. then it's not about Troy Davis, Mumia, Jesus, Jobs, Women's Rights, Environmentalism, Racism or anything else. All of those protests need their own protests...then we can work on linking narratives, build a coalition and change the world. People look at the 1960s and want to skip to the end of the roadmap.

It's a long road and hard...process, not the objectives, drive results. Movements need leaders, even the "leaderless" revolts in the Arab Spring actually had leaders and public intellectuals to rally around, thought-leaders that people would listen to when those people told them to follow one course immediately over all others because they had faith that the big picture was the end result. Non-hierarchical revolt is a myth, hierarchy (even informal ones) is key to building a revolt movement. Direction and hierarchy. We have none of that...yet. Everybody wants to be the king and think they're important, nobody wants to sacrifice in order to be the king and nobody wants to follow anybody else. Kings get killed, movements outlive their leaders because of up-swell from the followers. Was it over when MLK Jr. and Bobby Kennedy were shot? No. Why? Because it was never about the leaders...but the leaders were necessary to coalesce the movement initially.

Movement needs direction. Movement thus requires leadership and leadership necessitates hierarchy.

[bluestateguy]

156. They need more people there, plain and simple

It's not fair, but them's the way it is.

Teabaggers can put 100 people on the street and get coverage (round the clock on Fox). Anti-war or anti-Wall Street needs 10 times that many to even get a little corporate media coverage. That's not fair, but that's the way it is.

And it would help if the protestors were a little more cleanly looking and telegenic too, lest they further a stereotype of the unwashed hippie. Doesn't play in Peoria.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

158. "A journey of a thousand li starts with a single step." Lao Tzu

Overthrowing the capitalists is a long journey.

[JackRiddler]

160. You might be interesting if you told us why you identify with authoritarian power.

The state can crush these leftist maggots! Surrender, Dorothy!

Grandma, what a courageous intellectual stance you have!

[sabrina 1]

190. You want to make a bet?

:rofl: Talk about not getting it!

Last weekend people like you were saying they would all go home after the weekend. Guess they were wrong.

[pipi_k]

191. So I'm assuming that everyone

posting in this thread about what a fantastic idea it is to disrupt life for others, is doing it from Wall Street where they themselves are protesting...

:+

[Bonobo]

193. This OP represents what you get...

When you do the math.

8 years ofRonald Reagan
+
4 years of Papa Bush
+
8 years Triangulating Bill Clinton
+
8 years of Baby Bush
+
3 years of triangulating, appeasing Obama

= Democrats with head up asses that don't remember what it means to even be a Democrat

[marmar]

223. +1000

:applause:

[H2O Man]

195. silly

...though not funny

[Le Taz Hot]

206. "Please, sir, may I have some more?"

:eyes:

[marmar]

221. This flurry of anti-protest posts indicates that it is indeed working.

nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

246. + brazillion

Remember Wisconsin?

[woo me with science]

226. Lots of posts today with new Third Way talking points about the banks.

I just learned from another post that the Greeks are irresponsible tax evaders and the European banks are the real victims over there.

And now we hear that the Wall Street protestors are idiots who block traffic and don't even know why they are protesting.



Interesting, the new propaganda to defend and deflect criticism from the banks. And right on schedule.

[slackmaster]

229. In the absence of a clear definition of success, the concept of failure has no meaning

You have to start with a measurable goal in order to determine the extent to which it gets achieved.

[Chan790]

254. true, but...

without a goal, success is also impossible...one's movement ends when everybody goes home. It's like holding one's breath for peace. Noble gestures that achieve nothing.

[Odin2005]

231. We live in the dictatorship of the Capitalist Class.

[KurtNYC]

236. It has already had impact

83 million google results
Yahoo censorship exposed
coverage by NYTimes, ABC news, Bloomberg, CNN, Fox, Guardian, etc

People can't drive their car across Manhattan in a timely fashion? That's not news.

[blindpig]

242. Ah, but we do have a dictatorship...

the dictatorship of Capital.

In a time when nothing else is going on this action beats a blank. It ain't great, but it is good.

Ya don't get nothing done being polite and following the rules.

[LanternWaste]

247. Prognostications are prognostications

Prognostications are prognostications-- whether from leisure suit wearing televangelists, or posters on a message board. No more, no less...

[Quantess]

251. Dammit! Too late to Unrec.

:thumbsdown:

[Name removed]

252. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.