#OccupyWallStreet: "First they ignore you..."

[Admiral Loinpresser]

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

Ghandi's formula is relevant to the #OccupyWallStreet movement.

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/first_they_ignore_you-then_they_laugh_at_you-then/214891.html

We're moving into stage two with corporate media. Let the journalistic snark commence! Here is a sample of the crap that has passed for journalism at the NYT for the last couple of decades, as the NYT editors race to the basement of journalistic ethics (a la "Al Gore said he invented the Internet"):

By late morning on Wednesday, Occupy Wall Street, a noble but fractured and airy movement of rightly frustrated young people, had a default ambassador in a half-naked woman who called herself Zuni Tikka. A blonde with a marked likeness to Joni Mitchell and a seemingly even stronger wish to burrow through the space-time continuum and hunker down in 1968, Ms. Tikka had taken off all but her cotton underwear and was dancing on the north side of Zuccotti Park, facing Liberty Street, just west of Broadway. Tourists stopped to take pictures; cops smiled, and the insidiously favorable tax treatment of private equity and hedge-fund managers was looking as though it would endure...

Some said they were fighting the legal doctrine of corporate personhood; others, not fully understanding what that meant, believed it meant corporations paid no taxes whatsoever. Others came to voice concerns about the death penalty, the drug war, the environment. “I want to get rid of the combustion engine,” John McKibben, an activist from Vermont, declared as his primary ambition. “I want to create spectacles,” Becky Wartell, a recent graduate of the College of the Atlantic in Maine, said.

The group’s lack of cohesion and its apparent wish to pantomime progressivism rather than practice it knowledgably is unsettling in the face of the challenges so many of its generation face — finding work, repaying student loans, figuring out ways to finish college when money has run out. But what were the chances that its members were going to receive the attention they so richly deserve carrying signs like “Even if the World Were to End Tomorrow I’d Still Plant a Tree Today”?

One day, a trader on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, Adam Sarzen, a decade or so older than many of the protesters, came to Zuccotti Park seemingly just to shake his head. “Look at these kids, sitting here with their Apple computers,” he said. “Apple, one of the biggest monopolies in the world. It trades at $400 a share. Do they even know that?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/nyregion/protesters-are-gunning-for-wall-street-with-faulty-aim.html

Predictably, Stephen Colbert has produced fairer and more objective reportage on the action, while being very funny. This gilded age is weirder than the last.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. And if they fully keep this up

Class warfare will reacquire it's real meaning.

[phasma ex machina]

2. Time for a Jubilee. Forgive all debts. Especially student loans. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

3. Most of the time they laugh at you and you wither away.

Many movements have come and gone. I remember lots of talk back in the 60s about doing away with the old order, but it is still here. Jerry Rubin became a stockbroker.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

11. Exactly.

I'm still laughing at Abbie Hoffman, MLK, Ghandi, Emma Goldman and Frederick Douglass. What an amusing group of losers. They just withered away.

[lunatica]

34. Don't forget that loser Mandela

:toast:

[joshcryer]

4. Oh I don't think you can discount the mockery of consumerism by consumer outlets.

It's all a whole new introspective critique of consumerism itself, the spectacle at its finest. I fucking love it. :D

[DocMac]

5. The time for half measures is over.

I really don't think many here understand. You want a debate where none exists.

You know the truth of the matter/what matters. I read the debates and they are good ones.

But we are losing and you know it! Don't lie to me and say all will be ok. It is not!

Even as I type this, there are those that would prefer I didn't...and worse. I suppose that i'm

fortunate to have lived this long. Yes, I know people who have not made it this long....50.

I am in awe by many who post here, your ability to articulate your thoughts, and i'm inspired.

I fear that I could never post an article because of the well deservered beating. It is a bad place to be.

[ellisonz]

6. I don't think they are going to win this fight.

1. Not enough local residents.

2. Incoherent messaging.

3. "The group’s lack of cohesion and its apparent wish to pantomime progressivism rather than practice it knowledgably is unsettling in the face of the challenges so many of its generation face — finding work, repaying student loans, figuring out ways to finish college when money has run out."

As the article notes, for the Wisconsin protests nearly 100,000 turned out. There is assuredly less than 5,000 people at this one at its high point.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

8. Keep it real.

I don't think the Wisconsin movement had 100,000 people after a week. Do you?

You should watch Colbert. He put on camera demonstrators articulately addressing the very issues listed in point #3 of your post above. His comedic irony included legitimate reportage, while the supposed "journalist" presented a cartoonish distortion of the breadth of view among the demonstrators, as I addressed in the OP.

[ellisonz]

10. I ain't doing nothing but keeping it real.

I watched the Colbert Report segment and have watched most of the youtube videos and media coverage. They are not cohesive and they're not communicating well. This has to do with the fact that most of the protesters seem to be out-of-towners and they are highly disorganized.

5 years of watching these types of protests in Portland has taught me a healthy disrespect for the anarchic method of protesting. The Seattle WTO protests make this look like a kid's bake sale. There were at least 40,000 at Seattle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Organization_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity

The Wisconsin protests were in the tens of thousands right off the bat and went across the spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Wisconsin_protests

[Admiral Loinpresser]

12. "By June 16, the number of protesters numbered about 1,000."

Looks like the Wall Street action is ahead so far, based on your link.

[ellisonz]

13. Umm...that's after 3-4 months of protests in Wisconsin.

They went from 25,000 to 100,000 within two weeks. "On February 15, tens of thousands of protesters demonstrated in and around the Capitol building in Madison." "On February 17, about 25,000 people continued the protest." "On February 26, between 70,000 and 100,000 protested the proposed budget in Madison. They were joined by thousands at state capitals around the nation." My link being the democratically maintained repository of record i.e. wikipedia - complete with links and sources.

I'm not saying there aren't people with legitimate concerns there; just that the leadership is not from New York City and it's a very narrow demographic, which to a great extent is well rehearsed in their "spectacle" - they're pro-protestors and they're very unlikely to gain any traction. Anarchists my ass; more like hipsters.

Now if you want to talk about keeping it real, London kept it real in 2011. That's how you scare the fucking shit out of the elite (not that I condone the damage done to small business or innocents).

[Admiral Loinpresser]

14. I misread the Wiki article.

So Wisconsin did develop more rapidly, conceded.

Having said that, I think the local support is growing quickly. I don't think having NYC leadership is a prerequisite to success. The group is very aware of the need to reach out to people in the city. They are talking to unions, etc.

This is nothing like Seattle. Certainly there is significant overlap as to who did the original organizing, but the tone is completely different. The only violence is coming from pigs in the NYPD.

This needs to be done. The 1% have been winning the class war since at least 1981, with the partial exception of the Clinton administration. This has been the greatest transfer of wealth from citizens to elites in American history, perhaps in world history.

Nothing short of ending Reaganism will prevent the continued decimation of the middle class, IMO. The most logical way to do that is to attack the engine which drives the transfer of wealth: Wall Street. The people have to do it, because the US government is not on the side of the people. The government is the enabler of the wealth transfer.

We have been mainly losing the class war since 1981. It's time to take the fight to the enemy.

[ellisonz]

15. I guess we'll just have to see - but I don't hold much hope for this lot.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

16. Without a popular rebellion, what hope is there?

The trend is clear and unsustainable. The middle class is imploding and poverty is on the rise. Every vector I can think of is pointed in the wrong direction.

If this action doesn't hit critical mass in the next couple of months, then we need another and another until it does. This has captured the imagination of many, I think, because we are tired of the hopelessness. We are tired of losing this war. Before OWS started I wanted to get out of the US for many years, but lacked the means and opportunity. Now I want to stay and fight.

[MADem]

22. POPULAR rebellion--that's the key.

Not a "cool kidz" rebellion...a popular rebellion.

Popular rebellions include fat people and polyester. They include old people in sensible shoes. They include tired, weary middle aged people, not all of whom are screaming liberals.

This Wall Street effort was plainly a private party, not a popular rebellion--and a poorly organized/executed one, too.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

29. Troy Davis plus #OccupyWallStreet equals America.

Not a "cool kidz" rebellion...a popular rebellion.

Your snark aside, these *people* (i.e. part of the 99% representing humanity) are bravely resisting a member of the 1% (Bloomberg), a crypto-fascist mayor who wants to break them with police brutality. He is the mayor because he is filthy rich.

If you read this link, you will see that, contrary to the assertion of the previous poster in this sub-thread, #OccupyWallStreet was a cross section of NYC last night, as the Troy Davis protest joined up:
http://www.nationofchange.org/troy-davis-protesters-occupy-wall-street-1316880789

That seems pretty popular to me. But these catty online comments probably fuel the consciousness-raising necessary to swell our numbers. So rave on, baby.

Popular rebellions include fat people and polyester. They include old people in sensible shoes. They include tired, weary middle aged people, not all of whom are screaming liberals.

I'm fat. Roseanne Barr gave a great speech on Day One. I saw a fat Viet Nam vet giving'em hell with a bullhorn. The polyester quotient certainly hit a new high yesterday. But you're right. We need more polyester. So rave on, baby.

This Wall Street effort was plainly a private party--and a poorly organized/executed one, too.

*Was* is your meme word. As if it's over. Yesterday was the biggest action yet. So for now, at least, the movement is growing.

The private party point was addressed with the Troy Davis link above. Is the message incoherent? To some extent it still is. But because of the bailout it is clear to at least tens of millions of Americans that Wall Street is transferring wealth to the 1%. The real message is: we have been losing for decades, it is time to start winning the class war. *Do you agree with that message?* I would really like to know. That is the issue here: are you for or against popular rebellion?

Poorly organized and executed?. The people on the ground are daily growing their numbers and are pro-actively using democratic committees to address the needs of the action. Despite police brutality, confiscation of equipment and rain, they have a 24 hour video feed with a growing viewership and twitter discussion. They have been very disciplined about not responding with violence to the NYPD pigs who keep provoking them with brutality.

Somebody above invoked the destruction of property in Seattle. This is not like that whatsoever. This is the discipline of nonviolence in action. But we need to get the message out, so rave on baby.

[ellisonz]

32. They will be squashed.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

33. Are you for or against

nonviolent popular rebellion?

[lunatica]

36. How many popular uprisings don't get crushed at first?

What exactly do you expect from the wealthy? To invite the people in for tea?

[ellisonz]

38. Effective protests "seize the moment"

They change the dominant dialectic.

[lunatica]

35. Wisconsin unions were reacting to direct attacks on them

with an enemy who was embodied in one man, Scott Walker. Their choice of location is where Scott Walker works.

The Wall Street protest is against a faceless enemy and their use of capitalism to destroy this country. They're choice of location is the symbol of capitalism. By trying to make them the same thing you're setting up a false premise.

[ellisonz]

37. Well then that's their problem...how about picking corporate personhood as the target.

It's essentially what they're saying. The Wisconsin protests were not just against Scott Walker but what his policies represented.

[lunatica]

39. You're repeating what I just said to rebut my comment

What problem is theirs? That they pick the symbol of capitalism to protest capitalism. Where's the problem? I think they're right on. What's your point?

[MADem]

18. +1

Fact is, you need chubby middle aged people in unfashionable clothing, and geezers with canes and sensible rain hats to round out a good protest that the media will want to cover. You also need real numbers--not just a few college kids taking a break from the books to go "play demonstrator," and get their picture taken by tourists doing the looky-loo.

It can't be just young kids in hoodies, skinny jeans and vans with an interminable list of demands, each one starting out with "This is our ONE demand"--I mean, really. I will confess I was a bit disappointed to not see the classic "Free Mumia" on their way-too-long list.

I likened the Wall Street thing to Spring Break, a bit early, for the politically active college set--all they needed was a giant beach ball (with or without FREE MUMIA scrawled on the side of it).

Your comments are right on point.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

31. Are you for or against

nonviolent popular rebellion?

[Raine]

7. They ignore you and that's as far as it goes

none is even around long enough to be laughed at ... just fade away.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

9. I think Wellstone would be with us.

Just a guess.

[fasttense]

17. I read the same "failure" posts about Wisconsin.

That it would all just fade away because it was nothing like the Egyptian revolt. It was nothing like the civil rights protests, it was nothing like the end the war protests during the Vietnam war. I read how no one would be around for the recall elections because it would all just fade into memory. Hell, I read that Occupy Wall Street would fade by Monday.

It's so easy to sit behind a keyboard and throw spitballs at protesters who are actually doing something. If these "failure" posters were really about the truth, they would be writing their "all is lost posts" from the front lines of the protest itself.

[MADem]

19. Why would anyone want to attend something that is so narrow in terms of participants,

disjointed and all-over-town in terms of their "ONE demands"--and frankly, LAME?

In order to get people to those front lines of which you speak, there has to be a credible sense of purpose. There never was with this effort.

Instead of chastising people for sitting behind keyboards (not throwing spitballs, but engaging in thoughtful critique), you might want to dig deep and ask yourself "Why didn't this thing take off? Why was the top number of participants an optimisticly inflated five thousand--and that includes day trippers and curious tourists?" The answers are in this thread, and other critical comments made about how this thing was constructed, led and executed.

Real protests are of/by/for the people--not just the 18-28 demographic and a few creepy and disturbing forty-something year old guys wearing hoodies and vans, waving their iPhones and looking to score with the cute girls in the skinny jeans with the pink hair.

No one questions that many (not all--some were there just for the "party" aspect) of the participants had noble intentions. Unfortunately, intentions are insufficient. Without organization and inclusivity of the entire population--as opposed to a small demographic of teens/twenties, you're not going to see much success. Also, this "Anonymous" stuff, while exciting to the young, is off-putting to older people. Leaderless shit doesn't cut it with people who like a concept of accountability--after all, how can you demand that your government be accountable when no one is willing to step up and be accountable for the organizational failures of the WS effort? It just comes off as disruptive, childish and weak, good intentions notwithstanding.

[Eddie Haskell]

20. Because

[MADem]

21. Ah ha!

Are you one of those creepy forty-something year old guys with the grey hair, hoodie and iPhone, looking to score with the cute and earnest chicks w/skinny jeans and pink hair?

[Eddie Haskell]

23. No I'm a creepy sixty-something and I don't like seeing

cute and earnest chicks maced for no damn reason.

[MADem]

24. You should have ridden to the rescue, then. nt

[Eddie Haskell]

25. Furthermore, who are you to decide when the "cause" is just?

Freedom of assembly doesn't need a good reason.

[MADem]

27. Sigh. It's not worth bothering. Run along and fight the power, then. nt

[TBF]

26. It's gonna take more than Ghandi to get us there -

but ya gotta start somewhere. These are early rounds and we shall learn from them and keep going. Solidarity.

[Leopolds Ghost]

28. "others, not fully understanding what that meant, believed it meant corps paid no taxes whatsoever"

Note the subtle disinformation buried in this classic slice of late-90s-early 2000s hipster snark.

The take home message is that corporations never get away without paying taxes.

[truthwillout777]

30. we need to get in their faces and make them report the news

The Media Will Not Cover the Wall Street Protest? Take the Protest to the Media!!
http://getsmartnews.com/news/220689