Throw out cheating Greece before the rot cripples rest of the world

[dkf]

Greece may be far away, it may be a small economy, but it is dragging down the value of your superannuation because its problems are a drag on the global sharemarket. The root cause of the problem is simple. The national sport of Greece is cheating. Cheating across every tier of society.
Greece needs to be thrown out of the euro zone. The crisis is coming to a head, as it must, but we will all pay. It is merely the most extreme manifestation of a failure of democracy by the European Union.

The Greeks are being forced into a humiliating and unsustainable austerity program, which is contracting their economy into a depression. This is one of several misguided policies by the European Central Bank and the EU, which have not grasped the impossibility of maintaining the fiction that Greece is a viable member of the euro zone, or even the European Union itself.

Feel no sympathy for Greece. The Greek government lied its way into the Economic and Monetary Union in 2001, presenting false data, and ever since Greece has been a cancer in the euro zone.

Ostensibly, the national sport of Greece is football, but even football is compromised by the real national sport of cheating. Two years ago, the governing body of European football, UEFA, sent the Hellenic Football Federation dossiers detailing a pattern of illegal betting and match-fixing involving dozens of games. Some of the biggest clubs in Greece were involved.

http://m.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/throw-out-cheating-greece-before-the-rot-cripples-rest-of-the-world-20110914-1k9lp.html

[lunatica]

1. Why are you posting this without commentary?

Do you just want to start a flame war? What is your motivation?

[Pharaoh]

2. Greece is just another victim

of The IMF and global banksters.............

Try and get a clue before you post this crap dkf

[banned from Kos]

5. The Germans and French think the Greeks are bums

who are ripping them off.

[tama]

17. German and French

banks are ripping off Greek people, and German and French governements are owned by German and French banks. The corrupt governements and their bankster masters do not speak for the people. We speak for ourselves.

[banned from Kos]

26. there is a widespread 'I won't pay' movement in Greece

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41723432/ns/business-world_business/t/i-wont-pay-movement-spreads-across-greece/#.Tn-k59SZJWl

Its the German PEOPLE who don't want to subsidize a dysfunctional system, pensions HIGHER than theirs, and earlier retirement (by 5-8) years in Greece.

This is a very serious issue as the Euro leaders are looking at internecine rage. It is not "people vs banks" at all. If so, the German people will side with the German banks.

[DrunkenBoat]

45. tripe

[tama]

49. Don't fall

for that propaganda. Divide and conquer, turning working people against each other so that the elites can rob us in peace.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. could you possibly, for one minute, consider the possibility that it might be true?

if it was, what would you do with that kind of a data point-- one that contradicted an essential part of your narrative? :shrug:

[tama]

59. What might be true?

That people do fall for divisive propaganda? Xenophobic, racist etc. propaganda? Of course I'm not denying that, and the fact that it happens more than is good for us.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. that there is a long-standing, endemic issue with attitudes in Greece towards the social compact.

Or is the idea that "banksters" are evil and everyone else is good? That's very black-and-white thinking.

[leftstreet]

79. Do people in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland etc have the same bad 'social compact' attitudes?

Is that why the same problems in Greece are about to unravel in those countries?

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Ireland is a fascinating case. A fascinating basket case.

Look, the problem- a big part of the problem- clearly was the global real estate boom (esp. in places like Ireland) and hell yes mega American banks & brokerage houses were very responsible, as were the geniuses who came up with the "creative financial instruments" i.e. CDOs and the concomitant debt swaps or whatever financial tomfoolery they had going on.


But specifically, a lot of what's happening in Europe has to do with the EU, and the idea of slapping a single currency onto a bunch of vastly different economies and societies. Something that's never really been tried before, and now we see why.

[DrunkenBoat]

95. Gee, not so long ago it was the poster child for neo-liberalism & low taxes on capital. What

went wrong?

[Warren DeMontague]

98. I don't know. Why don't you ask the neo-liberal low tax enthusiasts?

If I see one, I'll pass your concerns along, okay?

[DrunkenBoat]

102. They're mostly banksters, so we mustn't talk about them.

[leftstreet]

97. Thank you for finally shifting the blame from the working class to the ruling class

I knew you could do it :-)

[Warren DeMontague]

100. I'm sorry, I tend to not go in for black-and-white thinking.

Stating that, yes, there seems to be a cultural issue in Greece with paying (or avoiding) taxes does NOT mean that the blame for all the worlds' economic problems belongs to the working class.

Reality is generally more complex.

[tama]

80. Re Greek attitudes

see my answer below.

No, the idea is not about making personal judgements depending from profession. The point is systemic thinking and analysis, what systemic forces are driving the growth mania and the destruction of enviromental carrying capacity, neocolonialistic debt slavery etc. etc. evils of capitalism as we know it.

[woo me with science]

65. That is exactly what they are doing.

And now that the protests on Wall Street have taken shape, you will see an outright Third Way propaganda assault to convince us that the banks who orchestrated all this are the real victims here.

This putrid corporate propaganda is probably causing Free Republic to cream itself right now. Funny how we could all easily predict the circumstances under which it would show up here.

[drokhole]

117. + 1,000,000 (especially for the Krishnamurti quote in your sig)

Here's another that I think applies here:

"We want to do patchwork reform, which only leads to problems of still further reform. We do not want to strip away all our false values and begin anew. But the building is crumbling, the walls are giving away, and fire is destroying it. We must leave the building and start on new ground, with different foundations, different values."

[JVS]

3. Launch the missiles!

[Fire Walk With Me]

4. The IMF and World Bank are the criminals.

"Confessions of an economic hit man"

[Poll_Blind]

8. ^ This

PB

[white_wolf]

6. How about we throw the cheating IMF and banks into prison where they belong?

[DrunkenBoat]

7. tripe

[Electric Monk]

9. So, how do you propose dealing with Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland's problems? Throw them out

too?


http://www.economist.com/node/15838029

[xchrom]

10. Fuck the author of this piece of shit. Nt

[leftstreet]

11. +1

[Canuckistanian]

41. +100

Mean spirited doesn't even BEGIN to say all the things WRONG with this article.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. The rest of Europe looted Greece's cultural treasures for

decades. And they kept them. So when they whine about 'cheating' I say Elgin Marbles.

[ixion]

13. Throwing Greece under the bus doesn't fix anything.

The problem is systemic, not isolated to a single country.

[tama]

14. dkf,

why do you identify with the 1% banksters instead of we the people? What is the size of your stock portfolio?

[tama]

16. Solidarity with Greek people

They are showing their solidarity to American people occupying Wall Street.

Solidarity between all the good people everywhere who want no more debt slavery to banksters and bankster controlled governements.

[DCBob]

19. so you support the Greeks who refuse to pay taxes?

Latest figures indicate about 60% of Greeks citizens do not pay their taxes. Sounds like a Republican utopia.

[leftstreet]

20. I do. And I stand against their high unemployment and shit wages n/t

[DCBob]

22. Taxes are bad??

[leftstreet]

24. High unemployment and shit wages are good?

[DCBob]

25. no. but they should still pay their taxes.. no?

[leftstreet]

27. No. Although that's not really the problem here. But you know that n/t

[DCBob]

28. Their debt problem is much much worse because of it.

some estimate the losses to the government to over 30 billion per year.

[leftstreet]

29. lol their 'debt problem' was engineered by the global predator class

Watch Spain, Italy, etc

it's all unraveling

[DCBob]

32. Greece's economic problems predate IMF loans.

[leftstreet]

34. Gee, really? Gosh, what were the problems?

:popcorn:

[DCBob]

37. massive tax evasion goes back for decades.

[leftstreet]

40. lol I'm relieved it had nothing to do with the ECB, ratings agencies, international speculators

Whew. That's lucky it's just bad behavior on the part of those Greeks.

So why are the same things about to happen in Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portugal....?

Are we looking at, like, global deadbeats?

[Warren DeMontague]

50. I don't know if it's "just" bad behavior, but the rampant tax evasion IS a problem

it's a widely held societal attitude. I say that as someone who knows the place pretty well.

[leftstreet]

52. With such a deadbeat history, you'd think no one would have loaned them $$

or I should say 'tax paying ethos' as you mentioned below




:rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

53. The problem is, the EU was sort of a dumb idea to begin with.

And what we're seeing now is the fallout.

[tama]

109. The idea

of economic codepency to avoid another European World War was not dumb to begin with. Collective supranational environmental policies was not a bad idea. EU became stupid when neoliberalism happened and took over it.

[sabrina 1]

87. Tax evasion by the wealthy. We have a similar problem here.

And the solution there is to go after the 'little people' with killer, literally (see suicide rates in Greece) Austerity measures. These measures are a complete failure, as anyone with have a brain cell functioning can see.

We are being subjected the the same 'measures' laid out by these organizations, the IMF and the World Bank eg. My solution is end Globalization, forgive all debt, and start all over again.

They are trying to keep Greece afloat by punishing the working class even more, they do not care about PEOPLE, in order to stop the ripple effect on other countries. They've done this all before and it didn't work. So, as Dean Baker asks 'what makes them think it's going to work this time'?

My question is what they are trying to hide. Where did all the money go? Who is hoarding it? Why have there been no prosecutions of the real criminals, the ones who are responsible for the destruction of the World Economy?

Why are the same people who oversaw these problems/crimes, still in charge. What makes anyone think that the same people who allowed all this to happen, are competent to fix it? Christine Lagarded was finance minister of France before becoming IMF chief. She did not distinguish herself in that position. So, why is SHE now in charge of the IMF?

What is needed as REAL economists have been saying all along, is a complete change of course. Austerity policies will fail, there is no question about it, they already have. Maybe it's time to remove all these geniuses who can't come up with anything different than the same old failed, and cruel, policies that are only plugging holes until the next time, which will be sooner each time.

Start prosecuting the perpetrators and retrieving the stolen money they gambled with for a start. That would cheer up people in all of the affected countries. Then fire those left who have been such spectacular failures if not outright criminal and put those who were right all along, who predicted all of this, in charge. Then institute worldwide strict regulatory laws on Banks and throw out, as Iceland did, all elected officials who in any way were involved in the crisis by either profiting from it personally or ignoring it.

[Electric Monk]

121. Nice post. I'm with you, and Krugman, and Iceland. It's been obvious for awhile now.

[Electric Monk]

123. Bit of a tangent... Wealthy Europeans want wealthy Americans taxed more, and visa versa

and everyone wants their neighbors taxed higher, but not themselves, etc blah blah blah

I've been thinking about a lot of things. Right now, the thing I could use most is sleep. Cya' tomorrow.

[ixion]

35. Government corruption is bad.

what they're doing is standing up to bad governance.

[DCBob]

38. The Greeks have a history of not paying their taxes.

even when their government was "good".

[DrunkenBoat]

48. imf talking point

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Maybe it's a talking point

because it has some basis in reality.

[DrunkenBoat]

57. no, it's a talking point because imf & their ilk want talking points to justify the imposition of

austerity & anti-working class policy.

the people not paying their taxes won't be suffering: they're the same people.

I can't believe democrats support this garbage.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. Like I said, I'm intimately acquainted with the nation of Greece, going back decades

the 'talking point' has a point.

The real problem, I think, is that the EU itself was sort of a half-baked, not very well thought out idea.

[DrunkenBoat]

81. I don't care how 'intimately' you're acquainted. The POV of all Greeks is not the same,

nor is the POV of all those 'intimately' acquainted with Greece.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Fine. Carry on.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but if it feels good to vent, have at it. :patriot:

[creeksneakers2]

105. If a country can't pay its bills

what other choice is there but austerity? Stiff the creditors? Where will the country borrow money after that?

[tama]

116. See

Argentina, Iceland, etc.

[tama]

55. Rich people

have a history of not paying their taxes, aided by corrupt governements that allow tax havens for rich people, plus lots of corporate socialism as sugar on top. Talking about leading by example...

PS: there has not been a governement in Greece without big corruption scandal. Which speaks mainly of the fact that there is still some investigative journalism left in Greece. Other places corruption has become so normative and institutionalized it's not being reported or noticed by anyone.

[ixion]

58. which matters not at the moment.

[tama]

44. As long as

taxes are collected for paying interests to the international loan sharks and repression mechanisms against people, instead of public good, then yes.

Do you support the way your taxes - your fruits of labor, fruits of your land - are currently used by your corrupt governement?

[Warren DeMontague]

36. I keep hearing that word

what, or who, is a "bankster"? What do they look like?

Can you give me a few names?

[banned from Kos]

42. for about 80% of DUers - banking is an illicit activity

It amazes me as well.

I started a thread here once "Should my banker be prosecuted? (Suntrust)" but the point was lost.

[DCBob]

78. I dont know if its actually 80% of DUers but ti sure seems that way sometimes.

it is bizarre the attitude many here have towards banks and loans. I really dont get it.

[tama]

110. Glad you can admit that

you don't get it. Admitting helps to listen what the critiques of current financial system are saying and why, keep on listening. :)

[DCBob]

112. Yes, I actually find some amusement in reading the bizarre comments from some DU members..

That's one of the reasons I keep coming back here.

[white_wolf]

43. For starters look up the heads of the IMF and World Bank.

Then look up the owners of the banks we recently bailed out.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Maybe it's just me, but my anti-semitism alarm bells go off when I hear things like

"International Bankster Conspiracy"

I may be funny, that way. :shrug:

[white_wolf]

56. anti-semitism? Really? No one has said anything about the Jewish people.

The fact remains the bankers have caused this financial crisis, but it has nothing to do with race. It has to do with class. The non-Jewish bankers are just as guilty as the Jewish ones. Their race is meaningless, it is their class that matters. Nice strawman though.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. If you're at all familiar with the history of anti-semitism

you'll understand why the alarm bells go off, even if it's not necessarily reasonable.

[white_wolf]

69. It's still a stupid thing to say since no one except for you has mentioned race at all.

No one here thinks that every banker is Jewish or blames Jews for this crisis. The IMF and World Bank are largely responsible for Greece's problems and it has nothing to do with some of the bankers being Jewish, it has everything to do with all of the bankers being capitalists.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Well, tough.

Sounds like maybe it hit a nerve, actually.

[white_wolf]

71. Not really, I'm just confused as to how you jumped to conclusions about anti-semitism.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Because when people talk about 'international banking conspiracies', red flags go off.

that's why.

Apparently, I'm not the only one:

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/bankster_1/

[DrunkenBoat]

77. nobody used that phrase but you. but implying anti-semitism *is* a means of

scaring off people who wish to discuss the role of big banks & financial capital in the recent economic meltdown.

[Warren DeMontague]

94. Boo!

[DrunkenBoat]

99. .boo yourself. you alone brought up that shit.

can't criticize the president out of fear of being labeled racist, can't criticize the banksters out of fear of being labeled anti-semitic.

amazing how the civil rights discourse is being twisted to protect power.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. I tried to boo myself

but I'm not that flexible.

[DrunkenBoat]

60. I didn't see anyone talking about an international bankster conspiracy.

And you apparently think international bankers are all jewish.

I assure you, not the case.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[white_wolf]

72. +1

[creeksneakers2]

106. Do the IMF and World Bank force countries to take out loans?

[tama]

63. Urban dictionary:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bankster

[Warren DeMontague]

73. "the word also has some anti-Semitic references"

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/bankster_1/

so maybe I'm not imagining things, after all. :shrug:

[DrunkenBoat]

82. So does "bankers". Doesn't mean everyone who uses the word "bankers" is anti-semitic,

& doesn't mean talking about bankers or banksters = talking anti-semitism.

but, like i said, implying that *does* tend to scare off people who'd like to discuss the role of the banking & finance sector in the financial crisis.

[white_wolf]

83. Whatever you know very well that no one in this thread used it an anti-semetic way.

Do you really think it is being anti-Semitic to be opposed to the World Bank's and IMF's actions which have severely harmed the working class in Greece? Actually, I think you are just using it as a cover to stop people from discussing the very real problem that our financial system poses.

[Warren DeMontague]

84. Go back to my original post in the sub-thread and re-read it. It was a question.

It didn't accuse anyone of anything.

In answer to your (albeit leading) question, no, I certainly don't. My position is that I think the EU itself was sort of a half-baked, bad idea, and now we're witnessing the effects of that.

[DrunkenBoat]

91. you saw fit to raise the issue that merely using the word "bankster" = anti-semitic. which it

doesn't.

nor does drawing attention to the role of the financial sector in the economic meltdown & attempt to impose austerity policies across the globe. including here in the usa.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. I think any asshat who tries to impose 'austerity measures' here before cutting defense in half

and ending the drug war, is insane.

That's my take.

And if people don't YET realize that the financial sector was instrumental in the economic meltdown, particularly the subprime mortgage and CDO debacles, they're not going to miss it merely because I mention that talk of the "International Bankster Conspiracy" happens to remind me of passages from Mein Kampf.

[DrunkenBoat]

103. No one used the words "international bankster conspiracy" but yourself.

[tama]

111. I like your take

so you think basically every politician in US is insane? Or part of collective insanity?

[Warren DeMontague]

118. I think our political system has some serious dysfunction going on.

To put it mildly.

[ixion]

64. they look like this

But of course, you already knew that.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. I am intimately acquainted with the nation of Greece.

I have relations by marriage there, some of whom were jailed by the Junta for communism. This, after they had held out in the mountains against the Nazis during WWII while most of the rest of Europe surrendered. They're tough as shit, can drink you or I under several tables, and they don't screw around.

That said, the society has some deep, endemic problems that were NOT caused by external forces like international "banksters" or the IMF or the EU or Germany (today, not in 1944) ... the Greek societal attitude towards the social compact (i.e. paying taxes) is a REAL problem, and it's not just because they have high unemployment or crappy jobs. It's deeper than that.

[DCBob]

46. +1

[tama]

74. Lived in Greece

altogether five years, been professional translator from both classical and modern Greek. :)

Considering the history, it's very understandable that Greeks cannot be called "legalists", that there is a deep mistrust of state and that the most important form of social cohesion and security is still family and clan.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. My bottom line is, I think the EU was not a very well-thought-out idea.

And I think that is at the core of what's happening now.

[jberryhill]

88. It was assumed that political integration would proceed more swiftly than it has

[tama]

114. The core of what's happening now

EU and euro are just one symptom of the collapse of the global financial system, or capitalism as we know it.

As for EU, when I was young and foolish, I voted yes, believing EU could do serious environmental and social politics, but reality turned out to be very undemocratic neoliberalism. Single currency as such is not a bad idea, changing currency when travelling is a big nuicance. Any currency based on fractional reserve private bank money creation is a lunatic idea.

[DrunkenBoat]

85. Your 'intimacy' is no deeper than that of the folks out in the streets.

[Warren DeMontague]

90. Now that's not very nice, is it?

I mean, shit, does dinner and a nice bottle of wine count for nothing, anymore?

[DCBob]

15. Throwing them out is not the solution.. that will just make matters worse.

The Greek problem will have to be carefully managed and contained to minimize regional and global effects.

[sabrina 1]

18. What a horrible article.

The national sport of Greece is cheating.

Sounds like rightwing garbage we used to get about the French.

The Greeks are victims of the Global Casino that robbed every country of its future out of pure Greed.

Who is this guy? :eyes:

[nashville_brook]

21. wow, going all the way to Oz to find a neo-con, xenophobe to support your backwards view

this guy is a real hit on ConservativeUnderground, according to the google. is that where you found him?

http://m.smh.com.au/opinion/by/paul-sheehan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Sheehan_(journalist)

[leftstreet]

23. It's a big tent. Someone has to represent the ruling class perspective!

:D

:hi:

[formercia]

30. I think Germany is having a bit of Buyer's Remorse.

They like to be the big fish in the pond. The EU accomplished for them what two World Wars failed to do. These minor members like Greece have been a great source of income for them and they don't want to give up the loot.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. "Let's unify our currency.... and nothing else!"

What could possibly go wrong? :shrug:

re: your post... if Hitler's goal had been for Germany to financially support all of southern Europe instead, of, say, establishing a totalitarian nightmare and killing all the Jews, then yes, the EU could be seen as "accomplishing for them..." whatever.


The reality is, it was another one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time, but you have vastly different countries with vastly different political and social systems (not to mention, as others have, work ethic and paying taxes ethos) and the wheels are starting to come off the entire deal.

'Course, for the people who predicted the EU was going to kick our economic ass, this is an unexpected turn of events.

[bengalherder]

31. ZOMG!!11!!1

Those horrible lazy Greek people sucking up all that welfare! They will collapse the economy, I tell you! It can't be anything WE, THE BANKERS have done!

[woo me with science]

67. Here we go again. nt

[entanglement]

86. This is vicious right-wing propaganda. Note the simplistic diagnosis, scapegoating, history denial,

class-interest confusion and open xenophobia - and all that just in the first paragraph.

[leftstreet]

92. The propaganda's only going to get worse as things starts melting down

:-(

[entanglement]

104. Absolutely. n/t

[workinclasszero]

107. So then Italy is next then Spain then...

This whole world needs to tell the banksters and wall street thieves to go straight to hell before its to late!

Rip up all student loans NOW! All mortgages NOW! All credit card debt NOW!

Fuck the fucken banks that will be destroyed! Its us or them! Pick your side!

[jberryhill]

108. Don't you have a mosque opening to go protest in NYC?

Or did that just become "all better"?

[inna]

113. as ugly and as typical as anything i've ever seen you post, dkf

[tama]

115. C'mon

at least he/she initiated (IIRC trolling is a banned word) a lively discussion! :)

[Rex]

119. Drive by threads are ugly little creatures.

Like this one.

[Electric Monk]

120. Bought and paid for by...?

I wonder sometimes, about some posters. There seems to be a pattern...

[Rex]

122. Most of us have noticed how a few posters always post the same

things over and over. Like robots, while the rest of us try and have an actual conversation.