What benefit would Bill Gates get from worsening public education?

[Rage for Order]

I've seen numerous posts here over the past few months stating that Bill Gates (and a few others) are out to destroy public education. My question is, why? What's his motivation for tearing down public education? If you think it's an opposition to teachers' unions, can you demonstrate a pattern of Bill Gates and/or Microsoft taking advantage of workers? I'd argue it's quite the opposite: Microsoft rewards its workers rather handsomely. MS workers aren't unionized, but they make lots of money and have great benefits. As for making students dumber, Microsoft and other high tech companies require a highly educated work force. It seems counter-intuitive that he would want workers to be less educated rather than more educated.

So I ask: what is the incentive for Bill Gates to want public education to be worse rather than better?

:shrug:

[dsc]

1. to make money when he offers the 'solution' to our 'failing' public schools?

[Rage for Order]

6. If he wanted more money...

Then why didn't he just keep the tens of billions of dollars that he donated to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? He gave away much more money than he could hope to earn from selling a solution to public schools.

[Pisces]

7. exactly. This line of reasoning doesn't hold water.

[JackRiddler]

49. Your question is ignorant about the role of foundations in the maintenance of the mega-rich.

It is semantically true that he "donated" money to his own foundation. But it is more accurate to say that the organization of the fortune was converted from a personal to a "non-profit" form.

The foundation, as with those established by the robber barons of a century ago, is a time-honored means for the mega rich to secure their fortunes through generational successions, while also shaping society as they see fit.

[Rage for Order]

The Gates Foundation paid out $3 billion in 2009

How did that help Gates secure his fortune?

[JackRiddler]

75. Nonsense play with a statistic -- are you on the Gates PR team?

What was the value of the endowment in 2009? In what was this endowment invested? (A rogues gallery of corporate psychopaths, of course.)

How much was avoided in taxes by having it run by a "non-profit" arrangement?

To what was this $3 billion given? Did none of these "grants" have possible future applications that would profit Gates? (Africans as lab rats for biomed research, computerizing US public education.)

How is it that the Rockefeller foundations and trusts keep "giving away" money and yet, almost a century down the line, all these Rockefeller heirs are still living off their foundations and trusts? (Not only that, but still getting credit as philanthropists even though it should be obvious by now to the non-braindead that they didn't give away their fortunes!)

I'd say you were ignorant of your own country's history, except the ignorant wouldn't care to spout talking points in defense of the billionaires. It's much likelier you are among the large number of unrich Americans who love the rich.

Do You Worship the Rich? The Bill Gates story...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3502451#3503787

Dark Cloud Over the Gates Foundation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3502451#3502542

Foundations are a way for the super-rich protect their fortunes against possible threats of expropriation through multiple generations, come snow or shine in the political conditions.

The Gates family can support the estate tax and the older, kinder system (i.e., support a return to the pre-neoliberal status quo) because they're enlightened enough to think the society will be more stable that way in the long run. Meanwhile, they know what goes into their foundations is likely to be secured against government seizures and political upheavals. That's the point.

They didn't give away a thing. The foundation is still under their control. It constitutes a vast and diversified investment vehicle designed to keep growing in total size. Even if it awards a billion in grants every year, its assets are not supposed to decline! And these grants are selected to influence developments in given directions. Grants are the way for the superrich to set agendas for the world. Even when the grants go to causes you consider good, it's still under their control, and from their perspective that's the point. They keep the power.

I don't get how the super-rich have been doing this for more than a century and so many people seem not to have caught on. Every time a robber baron undergoes the mystical transformation to philanthropist it's treated as an individual and unprecedented event, and he's lauded for "giving it all away."

Gates clinical trials on poor Africans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3502451&mesg_id=3504087

[Rage for Order]

109. Yes, better that they don't give away anything

You seem angry that people might want to secure assets for future generations of their family members, protect them from "threats of expropriation" and "secured against government seizures and political upheavals". However, this is not done via a charitable trust, which is the type in the Gates Foundation. The charitable trust manages the assets of the foundation, transferring money to the foundation so it can make grants to various programs. The money that supports families for generations is likely held in a variety of ways, including revocable and irrevocable family trusts.

I would say that you're ignorant of financial matters, but it's likely that you'd rather be angry at others, regardless of what they may do to try to help others, than in trying to improve your own lot in life.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/Documents/foundation-fact-sheet.pdf

Illustrative Grant Commitments

* GAVI Alliance, expanding childhood immunization: $1.5 billion
* United Negro College Fund, Gates Millennium Scholars Program: $1.37 billion
* PATH Malaria Vaccine Initiative (MVI): $456 million
* Rotary International, supporting polio eradication: $355 million
* Intensive Partnerships for Effective Teaching, supporting plans to transform how teachers are recruited, developed, rewarded, and retained: $290 million
o Hillsborough County Public Schools: $100 million
o Memphis City Schools: $90 million
o The College-Ready Promise, Los Angeles: $60 million
o Pittsburgh Public Schools: $40 million
* Alliance for a Green Revolution in Africa (AGRA), improving seeds and soil for African farmers: $264.5 million
* Save the Children, saving newborn lives: $112 million
* United Way of King County: $85 million
* World Food Programme increasing small farmer income: $66 million
* TechnoServe, helping small coffee farmers improve crops and fetch higher prices: $46.9 million
* Heifer International, helping small farmers grow local and regional dairy markets: $43 million
* Alliance for Financial Inclusion (AFI), a coalition of countries from the developing world making savings accounts, insurance, and other financial services available to people living on less than $2 a day: $35 million
* Consultative Group to Assist the Poor (CGAP), testing and promoting the use of information and communications technologies to deliver microfinance products: $24 million
* Achieve, Inc. and the American Diploma Project Network, assisting states in aligning high school standards with the expectations of college and career: $23 million
* Opportunity Online Program, multiple library systems: $22.9 million
* Ministry of Culture of the Republic of Latvia, supporting the installation of public computers with Internet access, training for staff, and implementation support for public libraries: $19.8 million
* Opportunity International Inc., developing and expanding a network of commercial banks in Africa: $15.4 million
* Gateway to College, expanding a program that enables colleges to serve students who need remedial academic help: $7.28 million
* Building Changes, helping create the Washington Families Fund and supporting efforts in King, Pierce, and Snohomish counties to reduce family homelessness: $17.5 million

[Hannah Bell]

123. yes, it would be better if he didn't give away anything.

[JackRiddler]

131. When you resort to speculating about the emotional states of your intelocutors...

you have surrendered argument on factual or logical grounds.

Note that you're the one who names yourself "Rage."

Whether or not I'm angry, you seem to think anger could not be legitimate. Far from it. Look around you at the world the US ruling class has in large part created, why should we not be angry at that? Stop pitching their propaganda.

By the way, do you have a conflict of interest in this? I'm merely asking, not accusing, because it's possible. Do you occupy a position of performing public relations for Gates or any other foundation or cause of the rich? Have you been the recipient of a grant from Gates or another foundation of the rich?

.

[Rage for Order]

257. So what is surrendered when one resorts to insulting the other party?

My speculation on your emotional state was in response to you declaring that I am "ignorant", "spouting talking points in defense of billionaires", and "brain-dead". Well, okay, you didn't explicitly state that I am brain-dead. You implied it by stating that certain information should be obvious to the "non-braindead", of which I am apparently not a member. You get what you give.

In response to your questions, no, I am not in any way employed by, related to, or paid by any foundation or cause of Bill Gates or any other rich people, and I have never received any grants from any foundation or person. The only grants I've ever received were Pell Grants. I'm merely curious as to the reasoning behind the people who state Bill Gates (and others; Gates's name was the only major player I could recall when writing the OP) are out to destroy teachers' unions and public education. There has to be some benefit to them for doing so. What is it? I don't think it's money, given how much he already has. So if it's not a quest for more money, then what? Of course, maybe it is just a quest for $10 billion more.

Regarding my screen name, Google is your friend. Or should I say Bing, given the topic of the thread.

[JackRiddler]

260. Okay, fine, very good. Now, once again...

Your initial premise is flawed, as I've pointed out a couple of times on this thread. Once again, you write:

"I'm merely curious as to the reasoning behind the people who state Bill Gates (and others ... ) are out to destroy teachers' unions and public education."

They're not necessarily "out to" destroy the unions and the schools; questions of motivation are secondary if not irrelevant. Your way of phrasing it is loaded. They simply are "destroying" (doing damage to) the unions and the schools, by advocating bad policies, regardless of what their motives are (and for all we know these are noble but misguided). In fact, Gates Foundation is on record apologizing for the damage caused to the school systems by policies it championed in the past, so it's no surprise that it continues blundering about today. (The surprise would be that they've not shown the decency to withdraw; not that they're still doing damage with their interventions.)

[Rage for Order]

294. Thank you

That's the type of answer I was looking for. You believe the Gates Foundation is damaging the public education system, even if they don't mean to do so. You state "questions of motivation are secondary if not irrelevant". I disagree; it is different if one is trying to help but does harm in the process, versus deliberately setting out to do harm in the first place with no intention of helping. You state that they've damaged school systems yet continue to blunder about today. If their intentions are good, wouldn't it be fair to assume they are still looking for something that will help? As the old adage goes, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.


I suppose you may have gotten to the core of my question: if the people trying to reform education have deep pockets and good intentions then why not work with them and try to channel their efforts in ways that work?

[Hannah Bell]

300. No. Because when research shows the "solutions" proferred don't work, haven't worked,

& they keep pushing them, it shows bad faith.

as does funding the demonization of "stakeholders".

as does the non-democratic money-driven process, including the hundreds of phoney astroturf orgs.

fuck bill gates & his minions.

[defendandprotect]

205. Even more frightening profile of Gates ... how many fingers in how many pies?

This is beyond monopoly --

[Hannah Bell]

79. The Gates Foundation reported $24 B in net assets in 2008, $28 B in net assets in 2009.

That's after accounting for *all* liabilities, including grant monies not yet disbursed.

There's a little something called the Gates Foundation Trust.

That's the investment vehicle that disburses money to the Foundation for grants.

IRS requires foundations to disburse 5% of their principal yearly.

In 2009 the Trust made $5.8 billion on its "investments" + $1.7 on "contributions" which may have been payments by Buffett/Gates or may have been interest on loans the Trust has made to various entities.

The Trust disbursed $3.6 billion to the Foundation (includes expenses), leaving it with a $2.2 billion "profit" that is subject to taxation of no more than 1-2%.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/Documents/2009-trust-financial-statements.pdf

I.e. both the Foundation & the Trust continue to grow via investment.

In return, Gates & his buds get:

1. An essentially tax-free investment vehicle

2. Reduced IRS/public oversight

3. The ability to use proceeds of the tax-free investments to steer national & global public policy in a way that benefits their aims

4. The ability to "capture" leaders in politics, science & other fields by giving them prestigious jobs & appointments to the Foundation or any of the many think-tanks, science institutes, etc. set up & funded by the Foundation

5. The ability to fund a tax-free PR machine

6. The halo effect of large high-visibility "charitable" donations -- tending to make people like yourself think "Oh, that nice Bill Gates".


He's a cutthroat bastard who never had a charitable thought in his life.

[fascisthunter]

124. no kidding... very interesting, thank you

[JackRiddler]

133. Bravo Hannah for providing the numbers and facts about the Gates Foundation fraud.

I wish we could pin this post to the top of the forum, so we don't have to keep endlessly repeating the work of countering the periodic flood of Gates propaganda.

People under Stalinism had it worse, but they really didn't have to deal with so many honestly believing followers of the official bullshit!

[snot]

164. +1. And,

"A modern economic system demands mass production of students who are not educated and have been rendered incapable of thinking."
– U.N.E.F. Strasbourg, On the Poverty of Student Life (1966), http://library.nothingness.org/articles/SI/en/display/4 .

[dkf]

178. You think his kids will be richer because he did this rather than giving it to them?

[Hannah Bell]

239. they will control the foundation for 50 years after gates' death; plus whatever

other arrangements he makes for them, so yes.

[dkf]

250. Having control over a foundation isn't the same as having the money to spend on yourself.

[Hannah Bell]

253. you seem to imagine the main goal of the superrich is to buy fancy cars & expensive dresses.

rather than to control politics & finance.

[JackRiddler]

268. Well, that's certainly what my magic teevee box tells me every day!

Focusing on Paris Hilton & Co.: Propaganda mission accomplished.

Also see Mills, Power Elite, Chapter 4: "The Celebrities." 53 years later, still current!

[earth mom]

266. "He's a cutthroat bastard who never had a charitable thought in his life." Yep, Gates to a T. nt

[dkf]

177. If he was most interested in keeping generations of Gates family members rich why wouldn't he keep

It all? Instead he says he will give only a small portion to his kids.

[JackRiddler]

180. I'm not obligated to correct your misunderstanding but I will try.

Like many robber barons before him, he presumably is interested in converting the accumulated booty from his plunder (and that is indisputably what it is) into a form that will remain as a coherent empire and hold sway over society for decades, for generations to come. I say "presumably" only because I'm not in his head, I merely see him following in the footsteps and using the same means of those who have done the same before. Clearly, he's not all about the money. This is one of those, like Ford or Rockefeller Jr., who thinks success in the capitalist game qualifies him to reshape society in his desired image and to hold sway over the lives of generations yet unborn for the next century or more. He has the religion (so to speak) of his class and acts to secure more power for the rich, as his arrogance in attempting to take over school policy to favor school privatization, break labor and computerize the classroom shows. The question of the OP was why would he want to do such noble things for the schools if he was only in it for the money. The answer is not only that the enclosure of the educational commons promises a gigantic new field of profit for Gates and his Billionaire Boys Club buddies, among others. The answer (self-evidently from his behavior) is that Gates believes in what he does and thinks he should wield this power over the lives of tens of millions of children (and the adults they will become). The short answer is, yes, he really is that asshole.

In the process of converting his wealth from personal to privately-controlled institutional forms like his foundation and whatever other complex of trusts and holding companies he's set up, his tribe and his friends will be well taken care of. Who do you think these foundations employ? Who do you think sits on their boards, and will do so in 2070 or 2110? (Supposedly the Gates Foundation will give out its last penny 50 years after both Bill and Melinda have died, which assuming they live into their 80s will be very late in the 21st C. We probably won't be around to see the board of then find ways to revise that so that it can continue its vital work.)

.

[dkf]

184. "clearly it is not all about the money"

Thank you. That is the point I was trying to make in response to the accusation this is to create an opportunity to make money.

I understand what a legacy is and I agree with you that it is his point. It is more self aggrandizing and controlling, and the point is he is perhaps more self idolizing than a person wanting to give everything they have to their kids.

[AngryAmish]

225. How is his desire for power different than any politician?

Politicians are in it for power. They want to reshape the country in their image. Just like Gates. This is bad? This makes politicians assholes?

(many politicians are in it for the money, especially here in Illinois. I just hope not every place is corrupt as here.)

[JackRiddler]

237. Then he should run to see how well his ideas float with the people.

Rather than using his money to buy and manipulate consent to his bad ideas for the schools.

It's not his desire to use power that makes him an asshole. It's the things he does with it and wants to do with it that do so.

[Hannah Bell]

240. politicians are elected and must compete in the political arena. gates was not. his money is the

*sole* reason he gets to make policy.

[JackRiddler]

258. Yes. Not only that, it's not only his money.

His money is the mass by which other money -- for the most part, PUBLIC money -- is diverted to whatever schemes he favors. He offers a billion for some scheme, then school boards and education departments chip in their own funds to attract his money.

This is thanks to the unwritten law that all money made available as aid or charity or grants must be competed for, even when it's a poison pill. See how the same principle is being applied through "Race to the Top."

[Hannah Bell]

263. agreed. "leverage"

[defendandprotect]

207. For one, Gates' reputation was being seriously harmed by his alarming weatlh... Rockefeller PR

had to be applied -- !!

[defendandprotect]

148. Creating a foundation isn't giving money away ...

[William769]

186. All I have to say on the subject is this.

More power to Bill & Melinda Gates & thank you for all the good work you have done not just in this Country but through out the world.

[Vinnie From Indy]

204. Amen!

Most of these posters that are savagely attacking Gates don't know shit! They are howling at the moon and making completely nonsensical arguments.

The fact is that I know one of the former directors of the Gates Foundation - Patty Stonesifer. She grew up in Indianapolis and has worked with Gates since the 1980s. Patty was brought up in a very liberal household. Her brother is political activist and writer Bill Quigley (Google him). Her other brother was the head of the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. Her father founded the St. Vincent DePaul Society here in Indianapolis which has helped generations of the poorest Hoosiers. One thing that I can personally testify to is that Patty would NEVER be involved with the type of evil motives being hurled at the Gates Foundation on this thread.

I will repeat - some of these posters that are attacking Gates and the Gates Foundation don't know shit. It is a shame, but predictable.

Cheers!

[JackRiddler]

274. Amen! I'd like to also thank the Koch brothers for their selfless donations to improving the world.

[William769]

277. Sorry.

You failed miserably.

[JackRiddler]

279. Please don't wound me any further.

It's just so terrible for me because for years I've envied the Koch brothers all the time and hated them and allowed myself to be consumed by anger, just because they're rich and doing what they believe in.

I'm trying to turn over a new leaf and affirm the goodness of the rich who created their own wealth through business savy and then gave us EVERYTHING, like Bill Gates and the Koch brothers. Peace, rich people!!!

[William769]

280. I would never try to wound you.

But you do have my pity.


Keep up your multiple sarcasms, you seem to enjoy them so much.

[Hannah Bell]

291. ironic.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. I don't think Gates is in it for the money

Some of the other billionaires maybe, but not Bill.

I think he really believes he can make a difference.

[rfranklin]

17. He's so brilliant he can single handedly cure all the deficiencies...

of public education. (Not that it is in the dire shape that he and others would have you believe.)

[DBoon]

61. at a certain level, the world's wealthiest man is an egomaniac

Though I've heard that he is (for a multi-billionaire) fairly personable, having that much money in a society where wealth is worshipped makes the wealthy believe they have authority over all sorts of things, and leads them to meddle in areas they should leave alone

[YvonneCa]

68. So do I. But because they aren't hearing educators...

...they risk failure. And such a failure may take down the Dems and President Obama with them.

[Hannah Bell]

81. They don't *want* to hear educators. They aren't interested. I don't understand

how teachers can continue to be so foolishly naive after all that's happened.

[defendandprotect]

208. Thanks for that comment ....

are the teachers truly naive -- or do you think it's just difficult for them

to attack this whole "no child left behind" Bush baloney ... especially now

that Bush/Duncan and Gates have adopted it?

You can see on this thread, still the natural adoration for those the "rich

and famous" -- and the unquestioning attitudes which permit this destruction

of unions -- not only teachers' unions but now onward to destroying public

service positions/unionized in government!

Unions are an obvious bar to corporate profits -- don't know why that's not

automatically clear to everyone?

Or are some here pretending to be asleep?

[Hannah Bell]

80. He's in it for the money, which = power & control. Yes, he believes he can make a difference.

But for himself & his class, not for the children of the proles.

If he cared about helping them, he would have reversed direction long ago. Because there's no evidence that anything he's doing makes a difference.

What it does do is break up the existing system which contains labor protections.

Gates revealed himself long ago as a labor hawk & union buster.

[Rage for Order]

110. Union busting and labor hawk?

Ask the employees of Microsoft, past and present, if they think they need a union to protect them against a company that is screwing them over.

[Hannah Bell]

113. yeah, i did.

http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/human-resources-personnel-management/11936126-1.html

as i said before, a large proportion of ms employees are temp, no benefits.

as i said before, ms = the largest h1b employer over the past 10 years.

fuck billy.

[Rage for Order]

126. Large proportion? Try just over 6%

So over 93% of its employees are full time.

But don't let pesky little things like facts get in the way of your poutrage.

[Hannah Bell]

130. Per its latest info, MS has 53K employees in the US, 88K worldwide.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/inside_ms.mspx

In 1998:

"Microsoft has 17,000 US employees, plus at least 5,000 temporary employees" = 23%.

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=1518_0_2_0

In 2000:

"Pilla said Microsoft usually has between 5,000 and 6,000 temporary employees. The company employs 22,000 people in the Puget Sound region, 42,000 worldwide."

= 14.2% (Using world-wide figures, though the temps in question were US temps).

http://www.seattlepi.com/business/micr13.shtml.

In 2000:

"about 1/5 of its total US workforce" was contingent (temporary, h1b, etc.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=xk4PQBWdF8IC&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=microsoft+us+temporary+employees+percent+6000&source=bl&ots=WchrxQwe5j&sig=t3FjdINRo4s0Dn25btuHu6mOfs8&hl=en&ei=bJozTY7mBIG6sQOjvOWtBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=microsoft%20us%20temporary%20employees%20percent%206000&f=false


In 2002:

"Until recently, for example, nearly 35 percent of Microsoft's U.S. workers were not on the Microsoft payroll. Microsoft hired them (laundered them, really) through temp agencies that provide limited benefits and inferior wage scales. Many were working in core areas, such as Office software development. Microsoft fought off a legal challenge from the permatemps for years. But last year, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled against Microsoft, and in January, the Supreme Court refused to hear Microsoft's appeal. This ruling, holding that many of Microsoft's "temps" were really permanent workers, could signal the beginning of real reform."

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=permatemps


Now why don't you link me to that "six percent"?


"Microsoft has never disclosed how many contractors it employs, although Sid Parakh, an analyst at McAdams Wright Ragen, estimates there are roughly 40,000 Microsoft contractors."

http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/162820.asp

That would be globally.

[jmowreader]

147. There's one other source of workers you're not counting

I do not know if Gates has moved his software packaging operations to China yet, but he at least used to contract with the Washington Department of Corrections to have his software packaged in one of Washington's prisons. You know he didn't do that because boxing software is such a lucrative job skill in the non-incarcerated world, it's because they work cheaper than people he has to pay and provide a building to work in.

[Hannah Bell]

150. Yes, that's another source of contract labor. And since Gates/MS doesn't release

figures making it explicit whether their total workforce count includes contract labor, including prison labor, we're left to estimate it based on public material which places it, in the US, at somewhere between 11-35% of its total workforce.

And unless Mr. "6%" has a good cite, his number is bullshit.

Gates has been using prison labor almost since Microsoft's beginnings, e.g.:

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=864


Another New Deal labor protection all but lost since the 70s.

The death knell of private exploitation of prisoner labor was finally sounded in the New Deal era. In 1935 two federal laws, the Hawes-Cooper Act and the Ashurst-Sumner Act, were passed which virtually outlawed prison labor. The Ashurst-Sumner Act made it a felony to move prison-made goods across state boundaries, irrespective of individual state laws.

This lasted until the 1970s, when Chief Justice Warren Burger began proselytizing for conversion of U.S. prisons into "factories with fences." Congress was willing to listen. As part of the Justice System Improvement Act of 1979, Congress passed an amendment which established seven Prison Industry Enhancement (PIE) pilot projects, and the definition of "project" was changed to encompass not just a single business, but all businesses set up in prisons by either a country or a state. The law was again amended in 1990 to allow up to 50 pilot "projects" (e.g., states) to participate.

Today all of the prison products from as many as 50 states or counties may legally enter the stream of interstate commerce. And so we begin round two of the prison labor profiteering racket, with a PIE big enough that any business in any state can grab a piece of the action.


But Gates IS A FUCKING PHILANTHROPIST, SO NO PROBLEM IF HE USES SLAVE LABOR.

[JackRiddler]

182. (dupe delete)

[JackRiddler]

183. Hannah: Ouch! But talking points usually dispensers disappear after you school'em with facts...

only to return on some other thread, saying the exact same thing as though this schooling had never happened.

[Rage for Order]

319. Not quite Riddler...

Some "talking points dispensers" actually have to go to work and earn a paycheck, and as a result do not have unlimited hours to lounge around in mommy's basement surfing the internet all day. But I do try to respond when my schedule allows me time to do so.

:)

[Rage for Order]

295. I'm pulling my information from Yahoo's finance page:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=MSFT+Profile

Details
Sector: Technology
Industry: Application Software
Full Time Employees: 89,000

http://www.itworld.com/IW001212hnpermatemp

Finally, the company now limits the length of temporary assignments to 12 months. After the 12-month period is up, a temporary worker must wait 100 days before the next assignment at Microsoft, Pilla said. The average temporary assignment is 10 months, he said. Redmond, Wash.-based Microsoft has about 5,000 to 6,000 permatemps at any one time, he said.

6,000 temps (the high end from the IT World article) + 89,000 full time employees (per Yahoo Finance) = 95,000 total employees.

6,000 / 95,000 = 0.063157894

0.063157894 * 100 = 6.31%

[Hannah Bell]

301. and as I already said, that quote is from 2001. Bad form, posting it again & pretending

it's current. Who are you trying to kid?

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=Redmond%2C+Wash.-based+Microsoft+has+about+5%2C000+to+6%2C000+permatemps+at+any+one+time%2C+he+said.&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&psj=1&fp=5fc6e4edb7c346ed

[Rage for Order]

318. LOL...so to dispute my number from 2002, you post an article from...1996?

Who are YOU trying to kid? Perhaps you can post something from a recent source, like Encyclopedia Britannica circa 1967

:rofl:

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=864

May 1st, 1996

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=permatemps

November 30, 2002

http://www.seattlepi.com/business/micr13.shtml

Wednesday, December 13, 2000

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=1518_0_2_0

May 1998 Volume 5 Number 5


And pardon my bad form, but it's difficult to respond to every post when a thread gets as large as this one. However, if you'd like me to address specific posts just copy & paste them into one post, or list the post numbers and I'll try to get to them.

[Hannah Bell]

320. uh, no, i posted a google search on your 2001 quote, as you well know,

& as anyone can verify.

it's clear that truth is not your interest.

[JackRiddler]

185. Hey, Rage for Order, now that this 6% claim has been completely exposed as false...

by Hannah's factual listing, will you show the basic respect for self and others of correcting yourself?

That would be a minimum. I don't expect -- though I would also welcome it -- if you find it in yourself also to apologize for your unfounded and arrogant use of trivializing emotional attack terms like "poutrage," which (like your false factual claims) do little other than to damage and discredit you as a brainless, name-calling bully.

Come on sport, we're on your side! You can turn over a new leaf!

[Missy Vixen]

282. We live ten miles from the MSFT Redmond campus

My husband just took a job at a consultant firm after 14 months as a Microsoft contractor. Hannah's facts are correct. Mr. Missy Vixen worked on one of the most high-profile projects at Microsoft. He finally took another job when he was told they had "insufficient head count" to hire him full-time. The contracting firm counter-offered three times rather than tell DH's supervisors he was leaving.

Did you know that Microsoft is now charging contractors/vendors for "desk space" inside their buildings?

I might also mention that Microsoft has been paying below market value wages for the past fifteen years at the least. They counted on stock options to keep FTE's (or "blue badges") happy. Those stock options haven't been worth much for a long time.

The Gates Foundation: Bill Gates doesn't get out of bed in the morning, to paraphrase Linda Evangelista's famous line, for less than $10 million. He's not "reforming" public schools for the greater good, especially since he (or his children) have never attended one.

[Hannah Bell]

292. "now charging contractors/vendors for "desk space" inside their buildings?"

wow. that's really crass.

"hard drive" gates indeed.

[Missy Vixen]

310. It's true

So, in other words, they have NONE of the benefits of the "blue badges" - health care, vacation days, the "connector" free rides to work, bla bla bla, and their temp commpany or contracting company is forced to pay for a desk for them as well.

Unbelievable!

[JackRiddler]

136. Don't get ahead of yourself.

We'll see what happens to all those nicely-treated workers when Microsoft, as all companies inevitably do, hits its limits and is forced to rationalize.

Oh, and fuck the employees of Microsoft. Of what value is their opinion when Gates has decided to destroy the trade unions of sectors where he himself is not the management? Right now he's trying to fuck over the teachers, not the MS drones, so whether or not he is nice to the MS drones has nothing to do with it.

[Vinnie From Indy]

209. Your insane rantings are ridiculous!

I hope all fair-minded Du'ers will take Hannah's rantings with a grain of salt. She does not know Gates nor does she know Melinda nor his father nor former director Patty Stonesifer. I do! She is absolutely wrong about the motives of these people. Her hateful rantings are her shame.

She writes,
"Because there's no evidence that anything he's doing makes a difference."

One might offer here that Gates has had infinitely more impact for the good of mankind than Hannah Bell or even a million Hannah Bells. Her hateful attacks would be funny if they were not so pathetic.

Cheers!

[Hannah Bell]

241. lol. "the good of mankind" = yes, if you like monopoly, monsanto, & rentiers.

what's actually insane is the notion that rich people directing policy behind closed doors by virtue of their control over money will be good for you.

[inna]

248. that's just a vile personal attack reflecting very poorly on yourself

[girl gone mad]

307. By his deeds you shall know him.

By his deeds: a sociopathic, corrupt, greedy robber baron.

[Vinnie From Indy]

312. And you have what proof about this claim?

I'll wait and see if you produce anything to back up your attacks. If not, then I guess we both know what your deeds say about you won't we!

Cheers!

[girl gone mad]

317. Where would one start?

How about manipulating a computer programmer out of an operating system through outright lies, after having sold said operating system to IBM (also through a series of lies).

That's the act of a con artist and a bully, not an upstanding man of morals.

[MedicalAdmin]

172. You forgot the sarcasm tag

Ohhhhhh noooooo, not Bill (cue harp music).

[JackRiddler]

181. He believes he can make a difference, yes: but on behalf of what, and why should we respect...

his demented goals of privatizing schools, breaking labor unions and computerizing education any more so than we respect the goals of the Koch brothers, who also surely believe they can make a difference?

[defendandprotect]

195. Gates is either in it for the money/prestige -- or he has no idea that he's

being used by others to make money based on his reputation -- imo.

But, then, I'd have to believe Gates is really dumb?

Additionally, could it be that somehow Obama/Duncan/Gates and the gang still

believe in "privatization" -- and corporations doing it better than a people's

government?

If so -- these are entirely the wrong people to have in our people's government!

[cali]

62. except he's giving away most of his money

[Hannah Bell]

82. Right, that's why the Gates Trust made a gain of $2.2 billion on its 2009 investments & looks to

make even more in 2010.

Because he's giving away all the money.

lol.

[cottonseed]

235. Aren't Foundations supposed to earn some money to stay in operation?

I wasn't aware that they were supposed to dwindle the money away until they couldn't operate.

[Hannah Bell]

243. they can do either. the point is, gates is not "giving away all the money"

the foundation is growing, not shrinking.

[Odin2005]

83. Read above, "foundations" are nothing but tax shelters.

[JackRiddler]

138. Well, yes and no.

They among the major means of institutionalizing personal wealth and power through a long term of multiple generations, and of exercising power to remold society in one's preferred image. Obviously being a tax shelter is a big, big part of that (since tax is always the biggest threat to keeping the money, logically enough).

[JackRiddler]

137. Yeah, so generously that he and his heirs will still be "giving away" the money in 2120.

Do you have a stake in the now century-old ruling class scam known as "Robber Baron to Philanthropist"? I'm just asking, because I wonder what your motivation is for pitching their PR. I hope you have a stake in it. For your own sake.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Perhaps it's only a sense of "I can do this better?"

[jwirr]

48. That sounds like Bill Gates.

[JackRiddler]

187. And he arrives at his delusion based on what? Windows?

[Iris]

321. bwahahahahahahahahahahahah! n/t

[rucky]

3. He sincerely thinks he's trying to improve education.

But he's arrogant and misguided - a deadly combination.

[YvonneCa]

70. Exactly. n/t

[dkf]

4. Some have turned this into the elites effort to dumb down the public.

I think that is crazy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. I believe that is the motivation for some of the billionaires involved

Read Ravitch's book. She explains it far better than I could.

[Hannah Bell]

84. What would you call the effort to privatize education, deprofessionalise teachers,

remove labor protections, & subject children to market discipline?

I'd call it an effort to dumb down the public.

[dkf]

167. They already have an ignorant public.

Do you really think they need to do more to dumb down everything?

[defendandprotect]

196. Depends on what you think the levels of fear in elites of the masses may be?

I'd say it suicidally high -- as suicidal as capitalism itself!

Keep in mind, elites/corporate control over ALL media is still commencing --

with the internet still to go. Why? Because their lies are myths -- and when

even the slightest bit of truth escapes it shatters their myths like a pebble

hitting a mirror.

That's the fear -- the fear of any and all truth and burying it.

[Hannah Bell]

244. do you include yourself?

[olegramps]

272. I would like to thank you for your input of facts.

This is why I continue to come here. When someone pulls some "fact" out of their ass it is people like Hannah Bell that are ready to provide the truth.

[Fumesucker]

99. Why would the elites want an educated and intelligent population?

Educated intelligent people are harder to manipulate and less likely to be emotionally railroaded into doing something stupid like invade Iraq (or Afghanistan come to think of it).

[dkf]

168. Most people wanted to go into Afghanistan.

And the majority of the populace hasn't been affected by Bill Gates efforts, yet these things happened. The kids were the least likely to support war, after all they are the ones who land up fighting. By your logic it is the older generation who had the bad educational system.

[Fumesucker]

171. That still doesn't speak to my point..

Why would the elites want an intelligent and educated populace?

And strangely enough it seems that the number of people who think going into Afghanistan in the first place was a major mistake is climbing on a nearly daily basis.

Perhaps if our population was more intelligent and better educated then "most people" wouldn't have wanted to invade Afghanistan.

[dkf]

174. I think it was perfectly appropriate to try to kill or capture Osama Bin Laden at Tora Bora.

I'm sure most would agree with that also. The question is the wider war, and why are we still there. I would say it takes an educated populace to understand the significance of Pakistan and what our options are there.

In all honesty, we can be educated but still not know a damn thing about exactly what is going on in Pakistan too since they keep so much of what we do there under the wrap of "national security".

[Fumesucker]

179. Strange, fourteen of the nineteen hijackers were from Saudi Arabia..

None of them at all were from Afghanistan or Iraq.

And yet we're allies with Saudi and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

Anyone with a passing knowledge of the history of Afghanistan could have predicted that military action there by foreigners was remarkably unlikely to end in success and indeed a lot of them did predict just that.

I think it's amusing how those who were correct in the first place and have been correct all along are almost totally locked out of our national discussion on these issues.

[defendandprotect]

197. That's not true -- even the families said: "Do not use our suffering and pain to create war" -- and

a strong anti-war movement stood against it then and still now --

Largest anti-war supporters ever --

Not covered of course, buried by corporate press -- but still true.

Also same for Iraq!

But, notice that Veep Biden continues to push for an attack on Iran by Israel,

claiming "Israel would be justified in attacking Iran!" That warmongering by

Biden has been going on more than a year now!

Never heard Obama say anything to the contrary on that point -- PLUS Biden wants

to stay in Afghanistan past Obama's 2012 and into 2014.

My consicence stands against all of this -- we need a new Dem candidate for 2012.

[olegramps]

273. I would suppose by what some think is education, but is indoctrination.

[Pisces]

5. None, some just want tear down any idea that is different and that doesn't come from the union.

Education is a great concern of many and I don't understand why it is a war between unions and teachers vs. outsiders?? It is crazy. I have children and I am open to listening to all ideas.
Something has to change and it can not be at the turtle pace we are on now.

[wtmusic]

32. On one side you have an abuse of tenure by unions

on the other side you have corporate interests seizing an opportunity and initiating nothing less than the privatization of primary-level education.

Both suck.

What needs to happen is a legislative limit on tenure and exclusionary practices by unions, which monopolize negotiations with school districts who have few options. A labor monopoly is no less abhorrent than a corporate monopoly; it's an abuse of power on one side of the bargaining table, and needs to be dealt with using the same tools in the antitrust toolbox.

Simulatenously with eliminating private management of public schools, with which it will be impossible to provide a quality education to all of America's kids.

See "Waiting for Superman" and watch with a critical eye.

[defendandprotect]

198. Teachers abuse "tenure" but professors don't -- members of Congress don't?

As we can see, education is political -- tenure serves an essential purpose in

protecting teachers from indiscriminate firing for any reason -- it protects the

idea of collective bargaining by teachers -- and in the end protests the interests

of children and families in a liberal education which serves the individual -- not

corporations which push for schools turning out unthinking robots they don't have

to pay to train!

[wtmusic]

229. Everybody's doin' it...doin' it...doin' it

but of course that doesn't justify it.

Every job is political, and it's impossible to guarantee any employee there won't be political reasons which contribute to them getting fired. From the other side of the coin, my job as an employee is to try to get along with and please my employer. If I'm a jerk I can't do that, I get fired. That's the way it works.

For most out-and-out discrimination cases there are legal remedies. As far as corporations we probably agree...I believe the charter movement will ultimately be disastrous for the American educational system.

[defendandprotect]

249. If you mean "everyone" is a monopoly -- like Gates -- they no they aren't ....

Previously, employees were held accountable for who they fired and for what

reasons -- wholesale firings, efforts to exploit employees, unjust firings

were investigaged by the unemployment offices --

as well as the Labor Department -- and unions --

that included Police Departments --

Further, corporations were additionally held responsibile for who they fired

and how often by increases in their coverage costs for unemployment insurance coverage --

Much of this is no longer true as Congress has failed to use our anti-trust laws -- in

fact has violated them --

and as wholsale firings are now accepted -- which is what we're seeing with teachers now.


And, certainly all jobs are NOT political -- certainly not in the sense that a teacher's job

can be. If Police Departments are political, it is certainly a one-side politicalization --

the establishment vs the public now. A librarian's job may be political if they understand

their rssponsibilities, but it takes individual gumption and conscience for these individuals

to stand up against efforts to censor. The individual employee without a union rarely has

the power to act politically in their work. That's the point of unions to create the power

to have an effect. And that's why elites like Gates want to destroy them.

[olegramps]

275. Teachers are not totally protected by tenure. That is a fallacy.

But again this an example of people swallowing the anti-union rhetoric. When 36% of the work force was unionized, the American worker enjoyed their highest standard of living for the majority of citizens. Today only about 6% are unionized and it takes two paychecks, if you are lucky, to keep afloat.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. You are most certainly NOT "open to listening to all ideas"

That's downright comical.

[Pisces]

39. If you are not willing to listen to the other side it is you who are not open. You only attack the

ideas from others. There is no consideration that maybe some of the ideas could have merit. I don't understand those on this board that are dedicated to tearing down anyone who dares to suggest
we change current system. I only hear about utopian ideas like ( eliminate poverty) how is this pie in the sky idea a practical solution for the children currently in the system?

Open your mind to other ideas and maybe we could have a rational discussion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. We've been down this road too many times

I'm done. Don't waste your breath lecturing me.

[MedicalAdmin]

175. Let's check you logic.

Ok - here's another idea. All children in school would benefit from corporal punishment and all adults at that school should have complete sexual access to those kids while they paddle them.

Using hyperbole I have created another idea. Are you willing to listen to it? Does it have equal value? Would you be willing to vote for someone for school board with this "other idea?"

If not then please go peddle the false equivalency idea to some other group of rubes.

[defendandprotect]

211. And maybe we should listen to Global Warming deniers?

Or those who say MEDICARE FOR ALL would cost government money despite reality

that GAO has told us it would save government money -- PLUS create 2.3 million jobs?

Maybe we should listen to those who support war and the Patriot Act? Or even torture?

Invite Yoo in for a lecture?

Ideas that exist to turn the work upside down such as destroying public education are just

that -- destructive -- and destructive in the interests of private profit.

"Leave no child behind" is a simply more innocent sounding right wing propaganda which

to destroy the concept of liberal education for the benefit of the student -- while

substituting "education" based on educating a child to serve corporations.

Producing a student ready to go for corporations!

What they've always long wanted -- and ironically it was revealed openlythough he was

encouraging it!!


:eyes:

[bluestate10]

40. Both sides have legitimate concerns.

There are teachers teaching in schools that should not be there. There are students taking education as a major because they do not want to more tackle difficult majors. But anyone that thinks that a scientist, business person, engineer, prosecutor, et al, can walk into a classroom and teach children more effectively than a dedicated teacher can is way off base.

If Bill Gates and governments want to improve education, this poster thinks the following should be done:

*Get unmotivated teachers out of the classroom, regardless of tenure. Removing them should be done through a process that respects and maintains their dignity. Generous "buyout" options can be offered, poor teachers should be offered enough to retire on if they desire, regardless of age.

*Teachers that remain should also get generous bonuses that delivers lots of onetime tax free cash to their pockets, enough that financial concerns become secondary to them. Their annual pay should be raised to that of a mid-level public official in state government. They should get generous retirement contributions. Keeping good teachers financially secure should be a number one goal of policy.

*Advanced education training and education seminars attendance for teachers should be encouraged and fully financed, with seminars being held at schools during the school year with teachers teaming up in the classroom to learn and demonstrate teaching methods

*Students now in education colleges that are there for the wrong reasons should be directed to other majors, with them getting financial inducements that will help them make the transition.

*Students that remain should have their educations paid for and any money that they have paid into educating themselves thus far reimbursed, tax free.

*High schools should be taught how to determine which children that are interested in studying education is college would make the most effective teachers and work to direct only the potential stars to that field.

While the above may sound expensive, the cost to the economy of having an increasingly poorly educated populace approaches or has exceeded a trillion dollars per year as of this posting. That amount will grow to stunningly large amounts if the education problem in this nation is not addressed aggressively.

Bill Gates sees the dramatic economic problem ahead. But his solutions are ones that would leave some teachers out in the cold with no jobs and no source of income. And his proposals don't seem to address the quality of young teachers that come into the education system.

[wtmusic]

43. What is your opinion of the charter movement? nt

[bluestate10]

52. It is misdirected.

The objective should be to make all schools shining stars, not build a moat around one or two schools in an education system in a city or county.

Charter schools do have one good idea, IMO, in that they hand pick teachers that would teach in the schools. Instead of hand picking teachers I favor getting the ineffective ones out of the system with financial inducements that will make it possible for ineffective teachers to pursue other interests. Some teachers that are ineffective are enormously talented people, just not talented in teaching children. The most effective education plan would involve giving ineffective teachers the financial tools to pursue their passions, while making daily financial concerns of the teachers that remain in the system irrelevant to them.

Our culture is built around the belief that if a person has enough money to stop doing what they love doing, that people will quit working. That viewpoint misses the reality that there is a substantial segment of the population that can't conceive of doing anything other than what they are passionate about doing, government officials and wealthy people that want to get involved in education must find teachers that fall into that category and keep them comfortably in the classroom until they are physically unable to teach, at them time, have them shift to support functions that keep them involved in education and allows younger teachers to learn for the experience of the master teachers.

[wtmusic]

112. Agree, except the "financial inducements" part.

Fire them, like in every other profession.

I see the millions of dollars spent on firing teachers as money which should be rewarding the ones who are working their butts off, going the extra mile. The unions, with their bizarre Soviet-era mentality of tenure and knocking merit pay, don't see it that way.

[snot]

165. I'd also like to ask, what has changed since, say, the 60's or 70's, that would account for any

decline in public edu?

I.e., surely teachers had tenure and were unionized in the 60's and 70's . . . are those aspects stronger now? If not, then it seems clear, any decline in the quality of edu can't be attributed to tenure and unions.

But other things HAVE changed, for sure. Now, both parents work, often very long hours, and have less time for their kids let alone for PTA, school board, etc. And I bet what we spend on edu per student is down, at least if you take out the sports stadiums, etc.

[defendandprotect]

215. Only the impact of private-for-profit interests on public education ....

They are also pretty much the last large UNION -- an interference with corporate

profits -- but the public service workers in government -- also unionized -- are

already also being targeted by right wing.

'63 was a turning point in not only taking our president, but also our "people's"

government.

But other things HAVE changed, for sure. Now, both parents work, often very long hours, and have less time for their kids let alone for PTA, school board, etc. And I bet what we spend on edu per student is down, at least if you take out the sports stadiums, etc.

With the Brown decision, at first it was a racist attack on public education which morphed into

a "Christian Academy" and then a "Corporate" attack on public education.

Mainly schools here in NJ are funded by property taxes which keeps our schools going, but getting

harder to maintain -- and needless to say, schools in poorer areas suffer.

But re budget cuts, I've read that there were often times when money for the CIA was buried in

school education budgets being passed by Congress -- as much as 50% of the school budget!!

[Hannah Bell]

85. because it *is* a war. something is changing all right, but not for the better.

[defendandprotect]

199. Overall attack is on prestige of techers and their union -- getting rid of unions is primary ....

including in government service!!

BIG AGENDA FOR PRIVATE INTERESTS!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. His motive isn't to tear it down

He really believes he can help. But every idea he has implemented so far has failed and his ideas he wants to implement are probably going to fail also.

He's just an arrogant college dropout with a lot of money. No one would be listening to him if he wasn't throwing his money around.

[Pisces]

11. The current system isn't working either, so by your logic we shouldn't listen to the unions or

educators that have tried to help???? Everyone has a stake in this and I prefer people with a can do attitude than those with a piss poor negative one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Actually the republican initiated campaign to make you believe the current system isn't working

appears to be working quite well.

In reality, the current system is working quite well for suburban schools and for many urban and rural schools also.

But that fact doesn't align with the agenda of the reduced govt/control our schools/get rid of the unions right wing agenda that has been in place for 30+ years now.

[rfranklin]

22. +1

That's the problem. Too many people are buying the bullshit. The failing schools are failing in communities where there are many other factors in play. It's not just the fault of lazy, overpaid teachers as the right wingers would like you to believe. Handing out vouchers and setting up charter schools are proven pie-in-the-sky solutions.

[Pisces]

26. WHat false outrage, no one is calling teachers lazy and overpaid???? Most believe underpaid and

overworked is the case everywhere. That doesn't mean as parents we don't want solutions to help our children compete in the world. I think many are looking for ridiculous arguments that no one
is making.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. "Most believe" is a lot like "Some people say"

which is SOP on Fox News.

Good job. :)

[Pisces]

44. What a circle jerk statement that ignores the fact that most on this board do not believe

that teachers are overpaid and lazy. I certainly don't think teachers get paid enough. I am a strong democrat who is sick of the way the system is failing our poor kids and even those that have
challenges in good schools. There is not enough time and faculty to make sure no one falls through the cracks.

Why are you so angry that some people are trying to help. That those people have the money seems to be your only gripe. They must have a Machiavellian reason for doing so, by your thought
process. No one with money can have any altruistic bones in their body.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Read Ravitch's book

Then we'll talk.

[wtmusic]

37. Like every profession on earth, some teachers are lazy and overpaid.

The difference is the union won't let those teachers be fired. The termination rate is hundreds of times lower than other occupations.

[goddess40]

55. Fired with a reason

Without Union protection teachers would be fired indiscriminately. Teachers do get fired but this requires good record keeping by their administration. The reasons for poor performance must be documented. It can and has been done.

[wtmusic]

100. Too many reasons, and too much money.

Is there any reason on earth it should cost $500,000 to get rid of a bad teacher? Is there any reason that only 10 out of 43,000 in LAUSD (fewer in NY) are fired annually, about 200x less than other professions?

Either teachers are 200x better employees than doctors, attorneys, sanitation workers, architects, and the rest of us - or unions are too powerful and they are exploiting the system.

As public education in California goes broke, its teachers' unions are building megaliths with the wealth they've been able to siphon off. Below: the $266 million headquarters of the California Teachers' Pension Fund - the second largest pension fund in the US and 7th largest in the world.

[Hannah Bell]

144. again, your usual bullshit.

[knitter4democracy]

66. And yet the turnover rate is very high.

Teachers leave the profession at very high rates. We lose about 50% in the first three years, more by the first 5 years. Early buy-outs for retirements are also very common. So, they may not get fired, but they don't come back. Principals are very good at making teachers want to leave if they want to.

[wtmusic]

103. Why does a principal want a good teacher to leave? nt

[knitter4democracy]

143. All kinds of reasons.

Teacher has too many years and is too expensive, principal has someone else he wants in that job, teacher has expensive health condition that's costing the district, all sorts of reasons.

[Hannah Bell]

157. teacher challenges principal...teacher intimidates principal...

[Hannah Bell]

88. bullshit. the rate is higher than most professions. and there are a number of states where teachers

can be fired *at will*.

what a load of crap.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. In this age of DATA, no one is looking at the data that shows growth

For example, the further back you go, the dropout rate has improved incredibly. A century ago, most of our kids didn't even attend high school, much less graduate. But even going back 50 years, we graduate many more kids today.

Also, as much as I despise the stupid standardized tests that now dominate our curriculum, those scores have gone up since year one of NCLB.

It's been a magnificent PR campaign to discredit our public schools and it's worked. I'd like to believe most DUers could see through the bullshit but I've learned not to assume that :shrug:

[Pisces]

23. There are schools that are working, yet 30 + kids per class is not in my mind ideal. Many fall

through the cracks. Half day kindergarden because of lack of funding, yet charging parents for enrichment courses for full day. These are not great solutions. The schools in wealthy areas are
thriving, while those in poor areas are failing. This is unacceptable. We continue to fall behind other nations ( the right wing propaganda as you put it can not control our scores compared to
other nations) We are falling behind in math and science, urban poor schools are falling behind. Parents who want their children to succeed do not have a political agenda.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. And that comparison to foreign countries has been debunked here repeatedly

BTW, it's kindergarTen. :)

[aquart]

41. 30 kids in a class? UP YOUR TAXES.

Wealthy areas pay higher property taxes and that funds their schools. You are bitching about schools when your real complaint is tax structure and money allocation.

[DBoon]

63. The nations we fall behind have public educations and teacher's unions too

I find it very strange that folks who want ot break the unions and privatize education look to Finland as an example

[wtmusic]

105. Finland has a population slightly less than that of Wisconsin

and a very homogenous student (and teacher) population. It is thus a simplistic model for comparison.

More importantly, Finland has a very effective mechanism for terminating a teacher immediately with sufficient grounds.

In LAUSD a teacher who goaded a student to kill himself was reinstated after a year and a half of appeals. He is teaching at this very moment, hopefully not encouraging other kids to kill themselves.

[Hannah Bell]

160. lol. in most southern states/right to work states teachers can be fired at will.

haven't noticed the great benefits re students results.

"But a fairly large proportion of public school teachers are not covered under legally binding contracts. In fact, there are some 10 states in which there are virtually no legally binding K-12 teacher contracts at all (there are none in AL, AZ, GA, MS, NC, SC, TX, and VA; there is only one district with a contract in LA, and two in AR).

Here’s a simple proposition: If teacher union contracts are the main problem, then we should expect to see at least somewhat higher achievement outcomes in the 10 states where there are basically no binding contracts.

So, let’s take a quick look at how states with no contracts compare with the states that have them."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/how-states-with-no-teacher-uni.html

[DBoon]

210. Conclusion:

"If anything, it seems that the presence of teacher contracts in a state has a positive effect on achievement."

Hmm....

[defendandprotect]

217. Thank you ---

amazing how many lies can be sold by the right wing !!

[DBoon]

206. I'm not the one comparing USA to FInland

the calls for school reforms come from those who are concerned we are "falling behind" other nations

The nations we are "falling behind" have public education systems and unionized teachers

So why break unions and privatize education if the nations doing better than us have done neither?

You didn't respond to my argument, instead bringing up a distraction

[defendandprotect]

218. + 1000% -- Exactly -- !!

Thank you --

It's amazing how many lies the right wing can push at one time!!


:)

[wtmusic]

232. You mistake me for a charter school advocate

which I am not. What I am is a public school advocate who believes that unions' incalcitrance on tenure is driving the charter movement. Out of the pan, into the fire.

[wtmusic]

233. In Finland administrators can actually fire bad teachers

There is an LAUSD teacher who goaded a student to kill himself and a NY teacher convicted of child molestation who are still on the payroll because of teachers' unions. In Finland, they would be fired in a heartbeat:

An employment contract may only be cancelled with immediate effect on exceptionally pressing grounds, such as a serious breach or neglect of a fundamental duty of employment.

If an employee has been absent from work for not less than seven working days without furnishing the employer with a valid reason for this absence, then the employment may be considered dissolved as of the start of the absence.

An employee may cancel the employment contract with immediate effect if the employer infringes or neglects a fundamental duty of employment.

A central government employer may revoke the appointment of a public servant who grossly infringes or neglects the duties of office.

http://www.guidetoworkinginfinland.fi/cms/index.php?tyosuhteen-purku-2

Run these terms by the AFT, and see how far you get.

[Hannah Bell]

254. and so can teachers in the us. please link me to the documentation of the nyc teacher

convicted of child molestation.

[Hannah Bell]

89. we are not "falling behind". in each income class US students perform

on par with their peers overseas.

no, parents who want their kids to succeed don't have a political agenda, but bill gates et al do.

[leveymg]

24. The current system largely works.

Where it doesn't work is in areas of extreme poverty and rural isolation. The problem with public schools mirror the larger problems of class in America.

[Pisces]

28. I agree with you 100%.

[wtmusic]

35. The system works the best for teachers who suck and can't be fired.

10 teachers out of 43,000 fired annually in Los Angeles Unified. That's criminal.

[defendandprotect]

219. ... and really interferes with corporate profit -- !! Teachers and Unions have to go!!

:sarcasm: -- just in case!

[YvonneCa]

72. Yep. n/t

[defendandprotect]

216. Similar to the "Social Security isn't working" agenda .... but as we can see from PRIVATE

business world, what we have gotten for their "bus-i-ness" is deadly pollution of

the planet, obscene profits for the few, huge increases in homelessness and impoverished

citizens -- and the buying of our government and elected officials which has corrupted

government and its agencies, bankrupting our Treasury and creating repeated crime waves

by corporations, from banksters to Wall Street!

Anyone still believe in capitalism?

[bluestate10]

59. She did not write what you just said she wrote.

Her point seemed to be that Gates is well intentioned, but the methods that he is using do not work against the issue of a declining education system.

You point on unions is well taken. Any plan that does not involve unions will not work, regardless of how much money is thrown at the problem. The union function is to protect all of it's dues paying member's financial interests and pay. The union's basic mission makes the possibility of carving out and firing ineffective teachers unlikely. But if government, business and wealthy people work with unions to identify teachers that are ineffective or just tired of teaching and give those people excellent financial inducements to leave, education system problems will get better from the teacher side of things.

I want to bring up the role of parents and backtrack some on an answer that I gave on charter schools. Parents must be induced to get involved in their children's educations. If a child is seen to be falling behind, that child's school should call a conference at the school between the child's parents, the child's teachers and the school principal or assistant principle. Schools that have involved parents are routinely top performing schools.

Now for the retread on charter schools. If a child fall behind and parents do not attend parent-school conferences to correct the problem, state social services SHOULD intervene and ultimately take the child away from the parent and put the child into special state run boarding schools that have special staff that will provide not only a stable home environment for the child, but also a top flight education.

[WinkyDink]

30. I would say you are not privy to what Billionaire Gates "really believes."

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Well since I have actually talked to him, yes I think I am

One of his first initiatives was launched in my district.

So yes, I believe I know where he is coming from.

He's actually a very nice man with a lot of money who wants to make a difference in the world. But he's getting really bad advice on 'reform'.

[Hannah Bell]

91. i submit that bill gates isn't likely to tell you his innermost thoughts.

the fact that you -- a teacher, i believe -- have talked to him -- means nothing.

i'm from the pac nw, lots of folks here have "talked to him".

do you really think he's going to say anything but "oh, yes, this is going to be wonderful for kids" in public? and by "in public" i include any discussions with stakeholders in locations where he's trying to implement his program.

people are so naive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. That's not at all what he said, Hannah

I honestly got the impression that he naively believes he can fix what he perceives to be problems in our schools. He didn't come across as mean-spirited or power hungry. Just naive and a bit arrogant.

You know I'm not a fan. It's also not fair to assume I am naive.

But I don't believe it is correct to assume he wants to get rich off of our schools anymore than he sees wealth in what he's done to treat malaria.

He's a very wealthy man who doesn't have enough to do. He wants to make a mark on the world.

I admire that he wants to help. I just wish he would listen to the stakeholders. He came in here with a package deal and took no input from those of us who had to implement it. That was beyond frustrating. Then he decided after a short time that his program wasn't working and he pulled it. So his program was just one more in a series of programs that are not given enough time to work.

[Hannah Bell]

114. i didn't mean to insult you. but honestly, how anyone who examines what he's done in

detail could ever come to that conclusion, i will never understand.

of course he took no input from the stakeholders.

occam's razor = he doesn't give a shit what the stakeholders think or want. he has his own agenda & the stakeholders aren't privy to it.

[Vinnie From Indy]

212. Your posts are hateful and incorrect

You write,
"he doesn't give a shit what the stakeholders think or want"

Please explain to fair-minded DU'ers how in the world you could possibly know what is in Bill Gates head?

I applaud Gates and the work of his foundation!

[Hannah Bell]

245. the evidence for my statement is that he hasn't consulted stakeholders, as the poster said.

further evidence: he has disregarded research on the results of his "reforms" as well as pre-existing research -- preferring to generate his own bogus research to support the policy he wishes to impose.

[defendandprotect]

220. So you're saying ... Gates makes billions . . . almost by accident?

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

87. His motive is to tear it down. Of course no one would be listening if he wasn't rich. But so what,

he *is* rich, & they *are* listening.

Furthermore, it's not just Gates, it's a large fraction, probably a majority, of the ruling class. You can see that by the variety of foundations funding deform & the variety of folks supporting it in public statements & legislation -- both dems & pubs.

There's agreement on the policy on both "left" & "right".

[defendandprotect]

200. Agree -- but the obvious target is the teacher's union -- exploiting children is the goal...

exploiting children for profit -- and to create pre-trained robots for corporations --

that's always been the goal --

and in fact the idiot Gephardt, who's still around somewhere, recited that with the

"robot" part thrown in, acknowledging what corporations had been asking for -- the need

NOT to have to train workers! They want their workers produced in our schools!

When the education system supplies a liberal education it is for the benefit of the

individual -- not for corporations. Liberally educated students are a threat to both

the establishment and corporate profits.

I see that many still can't accept or fight the idea that people out of greed do suicidal

things -- but they do --

and our system of capitalism which exploitats nature, animal-life and humans obviously

makes that clear!

[WhiteTara]

9. he can make money on all the libraries and art

that he bought up.

[Schema Thing]

12. obviously not Bill Gate's motive, as pointed out above.

[Hannah Bell]

92. what was pointed out above neglected to mention that the $3 billion in grants

was only 52% of the %5.8 billion the gates foundation made the same year on its investments.

IOW, the Foundation got BIGGER, NOT SMALLER.

[defendandprotect]

201. How much would be enough for a guy who doesn't quit at $26 billion ... ???

PS: Presume it's much more now -- we need an income update on ole Gates --

[rfranklin]

14. Here's a clue...

There's money to be made...

Joel Klein announced that, upon leaving the NYC Department of Education, he will work for Rupert Murdoch's News Corp, heading up a new online for-profit education venture. A few days later, it was revealed that News Corp had purchased Wireless Generation, a company that received millions of dollars in no-bid contracts from the Department of Education to operate their online learning project, known as the " School of One" or "the Innovation Zone." And before leaving office, Klein had already announced the city's intention to radically expand online learning to four hundred of the city's public schools over the next few years, with no proof of any positive effect on learning. In order to fund this expansion, the city has proposed to add one billion dollars in extra spending for technology in the school capital plan.

http://jaxkidsmatter.blogspot.com/2010/12/bloomberg-cathie-black-bill-gates-and.html

I think you can define the motivation of billionaires who want to "reform" education. They see the huge amount of money that goes into public education and want to siphon off as much as they can.

[JackRiddler]

139. It's the new revolving door, the education-industrial complex.

[leveymg]

15. Public schools have always been the great melting pot that raised the children of the poor into the

middle-class. Unlike previous generations, the agenda of the global elites, now, is to lessen the political power of the American middle-class and to turn America into a larger version of some of the developing economies that have been "restructured" along IMF lines into two-class societies. The future of America is a large, undereducated population dominated by a small, globalized local elites controlled by global banks and corporations.

That's why Bill Gates and some of the other oligarchs want to tear down public education in America. It's cheaper for them to not educate us, and a de-educated mass is less likely to effectively cause them any trouble in ruling us as they do the most of the rest of the world.

[Mr Generic Other]

56. i agree with your assessment.

[defendandprotect]

221. Agree ... that is after they get this last large teachers' union out of the way ....

that's a prime target limiting corporate profit -- and a large class of

well paid professionals.

After that -- government service employees/unionized -- and then the way is

clear for more obscene corporate profits!

[hlthe2b]

16. Not all misguided notions are a result of nefarious motivations...

I suspect Gates is a "true believer." I have a lot of progressive friends that I can no longer discuss unions (they have been convinced that unions are out of control and only after some heated discussion, admit that their issue is "National" unions like the the teacher's union and not locals. They have also been convinced by that Superman movie (with tears in their eyes) that charter schools must be the answer, rather than fixing our public school system. When I discuss the privatization goal of the Republicans being the initiative behind this, they seem to think that charters are fully under the control of public schools and not really private.

It is a damned mess. But, Gates probably is a true believer. His history of working on world health issues argues against any personal benefit being behind his actions on education.

[Hannah Bell]

93. a true believer in advancing his own interest and the interest of his class.

[hlthe2b]

102. Based on?

What evidence do you have that Bill Gates (junior OR Senior) is "advancing his own interest and the interest of his class?"

I disagree with his actions on education quite vehemently and am certainly not vested in a "Bill Gates defense." However, I have no reason to believe it is consistent with the self-interest motivations that you suggest, given his global health philanthropy is of both a scale and nature that suggests otherwise. I would like to see the alternate evidence if you have it.

[Hannah Bell]

104. his family & personal history & his actions.

his global health "philanthropy" serves his interests in multiple ways.

[hlthe2b]

106. One could say that against any non-anonymous philanthropy...

:shrug: edit for Typos...

[Hannah Bell]

115. one could say many things.

[hlthe2b]

116. You make incredibly strong assertions that deride ....

yet you offer nothing to support those statements. Yes, indeed. One CAN say many things. Opinions are not very useful in effecting change, however, nor convincing others.

[Hannah Bell]

119. I think if you actually look at my posts on this thread I've offered a great deal more evidence than

any poster here.

The majority of the other comments = "I think bill is sincere, but misguided."

Evidence offered = none.

[defendandprotect]

222. Read some of the posts explaining the Gate "Foundation" and worldwide interests ....

[Rage for Order]

111. How? Where is the evidence to back up your assertions?

Beyond the obvious: kids who don't die from malaria and cholera have a chance to grow up and buy a computer running Windows and MS Office.

[Hannah Bell]

118. lol. Gates will make a mint on its "charity" which involves control of research & patents.

Gates already a notable patent troll.

http://techrights.org/2008/11/10/billg-searete-patent-crusade/

Check out the "intellectual property" agreements on all those research ventures he funds.

And let there be no mistake, the overwhelming majority of Gates' "aid" = funding research & coopting the political & scientific establishment of the countries he "helps".


Kochi, an openly undiplomatic official who won admiration for reorganizing the world fight against tuberculosis but was ousted from that job partly because he offended donors like the Rockefeller Foundation, called the Gates Foundation's decision-making "a closed internal process, and as far as can be seen, accountable to none other than itself."

He added, the foundation "even takes its vested interest to seeing the data it helped generate taken to policy." As an example, he cited an intervention called intermittent preventive treatment for infants, known as IPTi...Since it is not safe or practical to give Fansidar constantly to babies because it is a sulfa drug that can cause rare but deadly reactions and because Fansidar-resistant malaria is growing, World Health Organization scientists had doubts about it.

Nonetheless, Kochi wrote, although it was "less and less straightforward" that the health agency should recommend it, the agency's objections were met with "intense and aggressive opposition" from Gates-backed scientists and the foundation. The WHO, he wrote, needs to "stand up to such pressures and ensure that the review of evidence is rigorously independent of vested interests."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/health/18iht-gates.1.10134837.html

Maybe you never heard about Gates-funded clinical trials on third-world children & adults, involving, shall we say, less than "informed consent".


Fuck Billy & his gang.

[defendandprotect]

203. Thanks! Bad idea that Gates would "own" scientists and research .... more evils of capitalism....

Capitalism is a suicidal system we need to recover from -- not go on with!

[defendandprotect]

223. Info here from the thread ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=211857&mesg_id=213106

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=211857&mesg_id=212547

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=211857&mesg_id=212688

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=211857&mesg_id=212716

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/how-states-with-no-teacher-uni.html


Try reading some of the responses --

[defendandprotect]

202. Unless you disagree with public education, then privatizing it is the "evidence" --

Same for Obama/Dunan and the Bush networks involved in this from the beginning --

PLUS the huge bonus of destroying the largest existing union -- the teachers' union!

Also, look to our own Congress -- do you really expect the mainly millionaires and

multi-millionaires and super-delegates to act in your interests?


:eyes:

[tkmorris]

19. I don't think he wants to destroy public education

I just think he's flat wrong about how to fix it. No surprise there, he has exactly zero credentials that suggest he knows anything about education. All he has is a pile of money, and that garners him rather more attention than he deserves.

[xchrom]

20. You can use search feature and see the countless

Articles done by hannahbell and joanne98 that make
The connection between the wealthy like gates
And charter schools and the like.

It IS about the money - and a lot of it.

And his foundation? Same thing, that's about money
For people like his children.

[Chan790]

21. You've followed the wrong logical rail...

which is appropriate because the answer is that Gates (like Duncan and Rhee) has also made a logical leap that cannot be substantiated.

In your case, you assume that if Gates is destroying public education then he must consciously be acting to destroy education...this would be an incorrect presumption. He really believes in the junk theories of education he is pushing because he believes that data and data-derived approaches can solve any problem. This is his incorrect presumption.

As I posted in another thread not 5 minutes ago, "Not everything that matters can be studied and not everything that can be studied matters." Social science won't create a better educational model.

I've had the blessing to be on the ground here in DC and see with my own eyes the lie of the success of Michelle Rhee, one of Gates' darlings.

[WinkyDink]

25. I believe the word you're searching for is.....MONEY. (To ask if he does not have enough is to ask a

VERY belated, like about $800 Million ago, question.)

Plus all the worker drones he can hire for minimum wage.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. His aim is to produce more productive rats to join the rat race.

"And what is a good citizen? Simply one who never says, does or thinks anything that is unusual. Schools are maintained in order to bring this uniformity up to the highest possible point. A school is a hopper into which children are heaved while they are still young and tender; therein they are pressed into certain standard shapes and covered from head to heels with official rubber-stamps." H.L. Mencken

[hlthe2b]

38. I don't know of any evidence that this applies to Gates...

His father, after all, has long been one of the wealthy to publicly call for tax cuts on the top 1% to be repealed. Bill Gates has given billions to worthwhile public health initiatives that would be very difficult to tie to any suspect motivations.

I don't doubt Mencken's quote applies to a large majority of the RW and the wealthy. But, I do not know that it applies to Gates. I disagree with him on his education initiatives, but believe he is doing so out of some true belief that those steps are worthwhile.

[Vinnie From Indy]

213. +1000

Cheers!

[defendandprotect]

224. A lot of information on this thread which you should read ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-blo...


Try reading some of the responses --

[JackRiddler]

42. He is not OUT TO destroy education, he is merely doing so. (Motivations irrelevant.)

[Phentex]

169. I think this sums it up...

I think he wants to improve education but he may do more harm than good.

[Rex]

46. None, but that has nothing to do with Gate&his quest to make schools 'better'.

You completely miss the point that professional educators make on this board about Bill - he has no idea what he is talking about, because he is not a teacher nor will ever be one. It is like a teacher suddenly saying, 'hey I can do Bill Gates job!' and then getting mad when people look at them in wonder and amusement.

Hope that makes more sense.

[Rage for Order]

50. I don't think that's entirely accurate

People transition into and out of teaching posts in universities and private industry all the time, so clearly it can be done. Not every one is good at teaching; I think we can all agree on that. However, depending on the subject being discussed, real-world application of knowledge can be an invaluable teaching tool.

[Rex]

51. But you still miss the point, Bill Gates has never taught a classroom

full of students at a public school or been a principal or vice principal or a superintendent.

You are falling for the false equivalency that - because one is rich (successful) in one field, doesn't mean they will be successful in other fields. And if you pay attention to what Bill says, it is the complete opposite of what teachers want in their classrooms.

So who are you going to believe? Teachers or Bill Gates (that has never been a public teacher and never will be OR have any hand in the actual process)?

[Rage for Order]

54. I'm not "falling for" anything

I'm not arguing on behalf of Gates's ideas or methods. He could be right or wrong or somewhere in between. My question was and is what people think motivates Gates and others in their quest to reform education.

Just because teachers want something in their classrooms does not mean what they want is what is best. Many people state that more per-pupil spending on education is the solution, yet Washington D.C. spends more money per student than any other state in the union and has some of the worst student achievement. Is the solution to spend an additional $1,000 per student and hope it works?

[Rex]

57. What motivates Bill Gates!? You must not know much about him

if that is your question. BTW, that was NOT the title of your OP so if you want to change the parameters of what you are asking fine. What motivates extremely rich people into getting involved with public education - they want to be remembered for a 'kind public act' and not for all the dead bodies they stepped over to become billionaires.

[Rage for Order]

60. No, it's the same question with a couple of different words

"what is the incentive for Bill Gates to want public education to be worse rather than better?"

and

"what...motivates Gates and others in their quest to reform education."

But if you'd prefer, we can stay with the question as it was originally worded. Is it a bad thing if people want to be remembered for a kind public act? And what dead bodies has Bill Gates left in his wake? Did he bludgeon thousands of people with software packages?

[Rex]

64. LOL! Not the same thing at all, but nice try.

I see what you really want (that no one will give you) is for someone to come along and make Bill Gates sound like a really awesome person that is good and has the publics best interest at heart. I suggest you read up on United States vs. Microsoft and learn a little bit more about Bill Gates and the kind of person he is.

Ironically, I love the fact his software breaks down so easily - it has kept me employed over the years! Thanks Bill!

[Rage for Order]

129. You can think that if you'd like

But I personally don't care if Bill Gates is liked or disliked. I am more interested in what other people believe to be the benefit to people who are working for school reform. I don't think it's a desire to make money off of the reforms, or a desire to weaken the public school system. However, based on the discussions here over the past few months many people do think rich people want to weaken or destroy the public school system. If that's the premise, then why do they want to do it? If it's not money, then what, and why? Altruism? Power? Boredom? Or maybe they do think it's money. I don't know, hence the question in the OP

[Hannah Bell]

134. Billy is already making money off school deform. He has set up a parallel structure of

administration for charter schools -- for authorization, consulting, "turn-around," & curriculum & is busy sucking off that government-funded teat.

More teats to follow.


Fuck billy & his whores.

[defendandprotect]

226. Let's not forget, Gates was suffering huge problems with his image/reputation .....

that's why he entered the Rockefeller re-hab program to "Foundation-ize" himself!

In fact, it even seemed to be a PR marriage!

Gares seemed to be a robot with no interest in anything but amassing wealth!

[Mr Generic Other]

53. he wants to separate the valuable kids from the

ones with less value and provide only for the former.
he wants to control the curriculum and provide the software for education programs everywhere.
he promotes charter schools at the expense of healthy public schools.
the list goes on and on.
the public high school i work in has gone from a highly competitive inner-city school that drew students from all around the city and beyond to one with half the student body that is facing likely closure next year since the gate's foundation got its hands on it.
the gate's foundation's mission is not to improve education but to control it.
the divisive and dirty tactics of the gate's people have been a part of my daily work life for 10 years.
the announcement of the likely closure of my school was in yesterday's paper.
i blame gates for the situation.

[Rex]

58. +1

Sad to see uber-rich people interfering with the working class. Why can't they just be happy with being uber-rich and leave us alone!?

[Hannah Bell]

96. that's about the closest to the truth i've seen here. in marketized education

the kids who survive the competition will be skimmed & the rest channeled into prison schools like kipp.

[Orangepeel]

65. A person can be wrong without having evil motives

Gates probably thinks he's doing the right thing. A person can be brilliant at
technological things and/or business matters while being dumb about social issues.

[ipaint]

67. The filthy rich think they are brilliant and have a long tradition of dabbling in

various social engineering experiments. Eugenics was all the rage among the wealthy decades ago. A complete disaster.

The filthy rich, their giant egos and their massive hoarding through bought off politicians and favorable laws are the problem. It's not just Gates out to destroy public education/democracy it's Eli Broad and the Waltons. Anyone who trusts that threesome of mega looters with our public education system has a screw loose.

Gates Small Schools experiment produced mediocre results at best so he abandoned it (along with the schools and children that were re-engineered) and now he's on to charter schools.

"In recent years the Gates initiative has turned districts upside-down, at first establishing as many small schools as possible, creating thousands of new administrator jobs, eating up classroom space, and compelling the neediest kids who were excluded from the new small schools to travel long distances to attend even more overcrowded large schools in worse conditions than before, relegating those schools to failure.

The small schools created in their place, with several schools sharing one building, were forced to fight fiercely over scarce space, losing science labs, art rooms, libraries, and intervention spaces in the process. The same situation is now unfolding in NYC as the rapidly proliferating charter schools are wedged into public school buildings. As a result, the existing public school, with much higher concentrations of English language learners, special needs students, and homeless children, is now in many cases forced to provide instruction and mandated services in hallways and closets.

Such large-scale experiments on children would never be allowed similar fields like public health, where first carefully controlled pilot studies must be performed, with the informed consent of parents, to ensure that the proposed interventions have positive results, and the risk of collateral damage is minimal."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/teachers/bill-gates-troubling-involveme.html

Beside a massive bank account what on earth gives Gates the right to conduct mass social experiments on children whenever the fuck he feels like it?

[Mr Generic Other]

120. this describes the process

that happened to my school exactly.

[ipaint]

149. Yes his little experiment fails but people keep worshiping him and his crooked foundation as the

as the answer to our public education "problem" as defined by the filthy rich pushing privatization.

Another article on the Gates education reform failure-

"The sorry tale of the Gates Foundation’s first major project in education reform has been told often, but it’s key to understanding how Gates functions. I’ll run through it briefly. In 2000 the foundation began pouring money into breaking up large public high schools where test scores and graduation rates were low. The foundation insisted that more individual attention in closer “learning communities” would—presto!—boost achievement. The foundation didn’t base its decision on scientific studies showing school size mattered; such studies didn’t exist. As reported in Bloomberg Businessweek (July 15, 2010), Wharton School statistician Howard Wainer believes Gates probably “misread the numbers” and simply “seized on data showing small schools are overrepresented among the country's highest achievers….” Gates spent $2 billion between 2000 and 2008 to set up 2,602 schools in 45 states and the District of Columbia, “directly reaching at least 781,000 students,” according to a foundation brochure. Michael Klonsky, professor at DePaul University and national director of the Small Schools Workshop, describes the Gates effect this way:
Gates funding was so large and so widespread, it seemed for a time as if every initiative in the small-schools and charter world was being underwritten by the foundation. If you wanted to start a school, hold a meeting, organize a conference, or write an article in an education journal, you first had to consider Gates (“Power Philanthropy” in The Gates Foundation and the Future of Public Schools, 2010).

In November 2008, Bill and Melinda gathered about one hundred prominent figures in education at their home outside Seattle to announce that the small schools project hadn’t produced strong results. They didn’t mention that, instead, it had produced many gut-wrenching sagas of school disruption, conflict, students and teachers jumping ship en masse, and plummeting attendance, test scores, and graduation rates. No matter, the power couple had a new plan: performance-based teacher pay, data collection, national standards and tests, and school “turnaround” (the term of art for firing the staff of a low-performing school and hiring a new one, replacing the school with a charter, or shutting down the school and sending the kids elsewhere).

To support the new initiatives, the Gates Foundation had already invested almost $2.2 million to create The Turnaround Challenge, the authoritative how-to guide on turnaround. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan has called it “the bible” for school restructuring. He’s incorporated it into federal policy, and reformers around the country use it. Mass Insight Education, the consulting company that produced it, claims the document has been downloaded 200,000 times since 2007. Meanwhile, Gates also invested $90 million in one of the largest implementations of the turnaround strategy—Chicago’s Renaissance 2010. Ren10 gave Chicago public schools CEO Arne Duncan a national name and ticket to Washington; he took along the reform strategy. Shortly after he arrived, studies showing weak results for Ren10 began circulating, but the Chicago Tribune still caused a stir on January 17, 2010, with an article entitled “Daley School Plan Fails to Make Grade.”

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=3781

Obama and Arne Duncan are disciples of this nonsense constantly pushed on citizens by Gates, Broad and the Waltons.

Gate's educational reforms failed and his teacher performance testing is failing. Other than fat wads of money that apparently turn people into his adoring fans/fools what business does he have buying his way into controlling our public schools, the curriculum, the teachers and our children?

Gates and his toxic filthy rich friends hoarding wealth and dodging taxes are the problem.

"To justify their campaign, ed reformers repeat, mantra-like, that U.S. students are trailing far behind their peers in other nations, that U.S. public schools are failing. The claims are specious. Two of the three major international tests—the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study and the Trends in International Math and Science Study—break down student scores according to the poverty rate in each school. The tests are given every five years. The most recent results (2006) showed the following: students in U.S. schools where the poverty rate was less than 10 percent ranked first in reading, first in science, and third in math. When the poverty rate was 10 percent to 25 percent, U.S. students still ranked first in reading and science. But as the poverty rate rose still higher, students ranked lower and lower. Twenty percent of all U.S. schools have poverty rates over 75 percent. The average ranking of American students reflects this. The problem is not public schools; it is poverty. And as dozens of studies have shown, the gap in cognitive, physical, and social development between children in poverty and middle-class children is set by age three."

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=3781

Someone needs to tell these "brilliant" filthy rich assholes, it's the poverty, stupid.

[Mr Generic Other]

155. ipaint, thank you for posting this excellent explanation

of the current state of public education in the US.
the process you outline is exactly my experience with gates.
i could add many horrific personal experiences i and my peers had with gates but i would rather drink beer and toast Dr. MLK Jr.
i can assure you that the gates agents in schools have been trained to use every divisive, underhanded, tactic in the book to get their way. and they play dirty.
what is good for corporations is never good for people.

[JackRiddler]

190. ipaint, please please PLEASE post this as a new OP...

Everyone should know about the established history of failure and destruction of the school system already perpetrated by the Gates Foundation. They have a clear record and it should not be ignored as they venture to do more damage today (with cheerleaders at the beck). Please post this separately with a title like, "The Gates Foundation: An Established Record of Damage to the School System." Thanks.

[Hannah Bell]

246. +1

[ipaint]

281. done nt

[Hannah Bell]

297. oops, never mind.

[defendandprotect]

227. Thanks for the info -- sad!

[kenny blankenship]

69. Control.

It's not about the money. Microsoft has always made money for its officers and major shareholders less through actual revenues from sales than through the impression that it is in total control of its core market and is expanding into every related market. The consensus that MS is in control, not sales, is what drives their shareprice and capitalization as a company. There is no better way to control the future of software than through the minds of young people. People who think in simple terms of how much money this costs MSFT vs. how much they will realize in sales are utterly without clue about either software or markets. Microsoft has always been about control. They were handed a monopoly, through the antitrust placed restraints upon IBM, and everything they and ex-Chairman Bill Gates have done wrt MS software has been to preserve, defend and extend that monopolistic control.

[Mr Generic Other]

122. that's the bill gates i know and

who has invaded my daily life.
he likes being in control.

[KansasVoter]

71. And Gates is saving children from Malaria! The ASSHOLE!!!

[dems_rightnow]

73. So he can make them work for minimum wage

Trust me. He's rich, therefore has bad motive.

[KansasVoter]

76. Sad when I can't tell if you are joking.

[dems_rightnow]

94. I'm joking...

And it is sad that there's such disdain for him, for the sole reason that he's rich.

[Hannah Bell]

121. no, there are many other reasons. but "he's rich" is the main reason for the other reasons,

because it's his wealth that allows him to do everything he does, including his blatantly undemocratic seizure of public policy-making.

it's sad that that's ok with so many people.

[KansasVoter]

128. Are you OK with him trying to stop kids from dying from malaria?

[Hannah Bell]

132. As I said, he invests in research that will provide patents. Not "stopping kids from dying"

from malaria or anything else.


"“It is pretty clear that in the countries that I am acquainted with in southern and eastern Africa, the biggest problem is not lack of technology but systems to implement it; health systems have been seriously weakened by years of underfunding as a result of economic crises and structural adjustment,” he says.

One of the starkest examples of the technology-delivery divide is the GAVI Alliance (formerly known as the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation), a partnership established with a grant from the Gates Foundation in 2001. The alliance was set up at a time when worldwide immunisation rates were poor after steep rises in the 1980s—led mainly by Unicef —had waned.

“Vaccination coverage had stagnated and in Africa it was at a miserable 50%,” explains Professor Sanders. GAVI had the primary aim of enticing the drug industry to produce more and new vaccines.

But, says Professor Sanders, “We can't even administer the old vaccines to children in Africa.”

But the most recent bout of negative publicity emerged after a minor scandal about the Foundation's endowment investments. An investigation by the LA Times published in January this year revealed that, although the foundation refuses to put money into tobacco companies, it is not averse to buying stock in firms responsible for releasing harmful pollutants or keeping prices of HIV drugs unaffordably high.6 7

The foundation caused further consternation among health campaigners in its response to the investigation: after initially announcing a review of its investment policies in the wake of the LA Times' reports, it later issued a detailed statement explaining that no changes would be made.8"

http://www.bmj.com/content/334/7599/874.full


Fuck Billy & his minions.

[KansasVoter]

127. I 100% agree. People here hate rich people, many times for no reason.

[Hannah Bell]

135. lol. that's the ticket. poor widdle persecuted rich people.

[defendandprotect]

228. Will try to rectify and support BP, GE, Blackwater, ExxonMobil, Koch Bros -- GOP'ers .... Wall St --

Shame on me!!


:sarcasm:

[JackRiddler]

262. And if true, so what? Does that give him the right to push bad schools policy?

Please fill in where "I saved children from malaria" translates into support for the disastrous school policies he is not only advocating but using his money to force?

[lonestarnot]

74. Dumbed down are easier to manage, they expect less, and don't poop on the rug.

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. He benefits by allowing the marginal learners to fail.

He wants the smartest 10% of the population educated to the degree necessary to put 'em in a cube. The rest? Meh. Better to apply the resources to his cube rats.

[Hannah Bell]

78. 1. "It seems counterintuitive that he would want workers to be less educated."

Gates' labor pool is the world, and total MS workforce = 62,000-89,000 (2010, various reports).

The "average" quality of US education is irrelevant to him or his company. He (& other such companies) can easily recruit the workforce they need from among elites & the global "survivors" of a competitive education system.


2. "Microsoft rewards its workers rather handsomely."

MS has been the biggest sponsor of H1b visas 2001-2010 -- and that doesn't even include the hires from labor contractors like Satyam, where the contractor is the sponsor.

The computer/information industry in general has been the biggest sponsor of foreign workers for years, replicating a historic pattern whereby leading-edge "growth" industries recruited low-wage workers to hold down wages.

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Top_Visa_Sponsors.aspx

In 2009 MS cut jobs while hiring new foreign workers:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aZpnwwn.qQ3U

Use of labor contractors, both for foreign & domestic workers, further reduces the "handsome" renumeration because of the kickback to the contractors.

MS has a high percentage of "permatemps" who don't get retirement, medical & stock benefits. Last year 35% of its hires were temporary.

Not only that, temps' wages can be arbitrarily altered, e.g. the 10% cut MS contract workers were asked to take in 2009:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008804700_microsofttemps03.html

MS recently instituted a rule that its temps could only work a single year, then couldn't be rehired for 100 days, in order to forestall lawsuits for equivalent wages & benefits.

http://www.uslaw.com/library/article/StraussDandB3creditordealings.html?area_id=5.

In 1996 long-time temp workers sued for 401K benefits & stock purchase benefits. They lost on the 401K question but won on the stock issue; however, it took 10 years to collect, reducing the value of the payout.

As it turned out MS's use of contract workers had also saved them millions in payroll taxes.


You can say the wage is "rather handsome" because it is higher than the average US wage; however, it is not remarkable among competitor companies in the industry, nor in terms of what it would be without Gates' (& others') use of non-union labor, foreign labor, contract/temp labor.

The average salary of Microsoft employees was "calculated at $54,000 for purposes of the settlement" -- doesn't sound so "handsome".

http://archive.washtech.org/news/courts/display.php?ID_Content=106.

[Rage for Order]

125. Did Bill Gates run over your cat?

You've obviously got issues with either him or MS that are personal.

Do I think Microsoft and Bill Gates are perfect? Of course not. But the things you elect to highlight are not unique to Microsoft; nor are they as bad as you would like for them to be.

Did you happen to notice the http://www.myvisajobs.com/Top_Visa_Sponsors.aspx">average salary of the H-1B workers at MS? Over $92,000 a year. They doesn't sounds like exploitation.

Your http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008804700_microsofttemps03.html">Seattle Times link states MS is cutting the fee paid to staffing agencies by 10%, and the staffing agencies are in turn cutting their employees' pay. How does that equate to Microsoft cutting workers' pay by 10%? That's like right-wingers claiming that increasing taxes on corporations is the same thing as increasing taxes on working Americans. After all, the corporations are just going to increase the prices they charge working Americans for goods and services.

Your last link is 10 years old, but the $54,000 average wage (in year 2000 dollars, not 2010, since the story is 10 years old) is still $10,000 more than the national median household income of $44,389.

Microsoft has 89,000 full time employees, and http://www.itworld.com/IW001212hnpermatemp">5,000-6,000 temps at any one time, or about 6.3% of its total workforce. The inverse, of course, means that 93.7% of its employees are full time and receive retirement, medical, and stock benefits.

[Hannah Bell]

161. Your link about the number of temps is from 2001. MS's 2001 workforce was

not 89K in 2001. It was 48K. Globally.

Which made US temps 12.5% of its global workforce, & a higher percent of its US workforce.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/inside_ms.mspx


In fact, you have no citation whatsoever for your "6%" figure, while I've provided cites, including a congressional one, stating that MS's temps have variously been 22-35% of MS's workforce.

Plus cites showing that MS uses prison labor & is the biggest user of H1b hires in the US -- NOT EVEN COUNTING THE H1B'S IT GETS FROM LABOR CONTRACTORS.


"How does that equate to Microsoft cutting workers' pay by 10%?"

Um, because MS is cutting its payment to contractors by 10%? Talk about disingenuous.

Um, of course MS pays over median income. Tech work pays over median & MS is an industry leader. So what? That fact doesn't negate the fact that:

1) MS keeps wages down by hiring a high percent of h1bs & temps/contract workers.
2) Temps & contract workers don't get benefits.
3) MS uses prison labor.
4) During the recession MS cut about 5000 regular positions while continuing to hire contract workers & lobbying for a higher level of h1b hires (currently limited to <15%.)

fuck gates & his minions.

[defendandprotect]

231. Wow . ... !! Prison labor and H1b's ...

Plus cites showing that MS uses prison labor & is the biggest user of H1b hires in the US -- NOT EVEN COUNTING THE H1B'S IT GETS FROM LABOR CONTRACTORS.

Began hearing about them bringing in engineers in the mid-80's after overtraining a huge

population of them -- and then being able to reduce salaries so that many engineers left

that profession -- then claimed they needed to import workers. At the time, I wasn't paying

as much attention to this as I should have been ... but that's as I recall it -- and then

obviously, then moved on from engineers to others -- computer operators.

Thank you for your excellent research!

:)

[defendandprotect]

230. You're making an inappropriate comment ....

You've obviously got issues with either him or MS that are personal.

which I'm sure you wouldn't want reflected in a way to suggest you have "personal"

interests in Gates and his company?

Don't do it to someone else --

[Odin2005]

86. There is money to be made, he doesn't give a damn about the students.

[grahamhgreen]

90. Most likely owns stock in the private system, duh.

[Hannah Bell]

97. gates is developing a parallel structure of school authorization, curriculum,

training, etc.

it will be a good base for his control of the brave new world of privatized ed.

[woo me with science]

95. There is no such thing as someone who simply disagrees with you anymore.

Anyone who disagrees with you MUST be EVIL.

[Hello_Kitty]

98. I don't think he wants to worsen education. I think he's got an overblown sense of himself.

Understandable considering how phenomenally wealthy he's gotten. People who are fantastically successful in one endeavor sometimes think that will translate into everything they try.

[jotsy]

101. Remember you asked.

I'm the parent of three. Ages 29, 20 and 14. The reason I share this is so it is understood, I've been parenting school age children and had a front row seat to the process since September of 1986. I have been fortunate enough on occasion to get educators to speak candidly, in and of itself not an easy task. Last spring, I was bold and asked the question outright of a pair of teachers who were married and recently relocated to the area, and so felt no pressure to tow the district line.

"Does the education system really think they can succeed in removing the human equivalent from the education process?" Both nodded with a sense of regret and defeat.

As I consider how to conclude my response, I'm reminded of a couple of interesting...peripheral factors.

Like the history of antitrust lawsuits regarding Microsoft and their tendency to corner a market.
<http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20031219&slug=realtime19>

It seems to me if you're the guy who owns all the relevant technology when and if education goes totally computerized, it's a good spot to be in.

Would it surprise you to learn that even Wikipedia has a file on criticism regarding Microsoft? That would include a suit launched in the early 90's and ended with the company paying out $93,000,000.00 to settle the matter. Look for Viscaino v Microsoft, a class action suit representing 8500+ people who worked for the company.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft>

One last inquiry. I've copied the first graph of 'Advertising and PR'. I would like you to evaluate the stance of those organizations with regard to quality public education and whether or not Mr. Gates' support for and association with such entities is consistent with his stated desire to have a positive impact on the process.

"...Microsoft contributes money to several think tanks, including the American Enterprise Institute, the Center for Strategic and International Studies, the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute and the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution. Critics allege that while giving the appearance of neutral third parties these organizations work to undermine Microsoft's competitors, for example stating "open-source software may offer target for terrorists".

That was fun, I'm glad you asked.

[TheKentuckian]

107. A well educated populace is ever the greatest threat to those who have power.

[leveymg]

140. Absolutely. The longer we wait to use that knowledge, the less there will be.

[Taverner]

117. None what so ever

He benefits from an increasingly smarter workforce

He is looking for private enterprises' answer for this

He hasn't learned yet that the beast is not logical - and that to empower his workers is to hurt his co-CEOs in the big picture

[Octafish]

141. Ignorant, malleable slaves.

Let them eat Xbox or whatever.

[Nye Bevan]

142. Every time a DUer states that Bill Gates has "attacked teachers"

I ask them for a link that quotes him doing this.

Nobody has ever replied to this request.

[Hannah Bell]

145. I call it attacking when someone spends billions to overturn teachers' unions & public schools.

You may call it something else; I don't care.

[madfloridian]

152. Oh Oh Oh...me me me

I have written a lot about how he talks about teachers. So much in fact that people tell me to hush.

[fascisthunter]

188. I'll Stick with Teachers and not some Greedy Billionaire

who stole in order to become as wealthy as he is today. Thanks, but no thanks.

[defendandprotect]

146. What's Gates motivation for amassing 26 billion or more? More than many nations are worth?

Why would Gates be against multitudes of highly intelligent students having the

ability to think for themselves and perhaps put him out of business?

[BzaDem]

151. If he was worried about being "put out of business," I think he could be doing different things with

his money than giving it away.

[Hannah Bell]

153. Gates Foundation made $6 billion on investments in 2009 & gave about half of it away,

which resulted in a net $3 billion gain to the foundation assets.

Better than a savings account, with the added benefit of being able to fund a lot of graft.

[BzaDem]

154. It might be better than a savings account, if he's going to keep and spend the 3 billion gain.

Of course, if he is going to give away the gains, that sort of makes it somewhat worse than a savings account to benefit him. To say the least.

[Hannah Bell]

156. um, no, the foundation will keep accruing assets long after gates is dead.

if you have some other idea, you don't know much about the foundation.

we can guess gates will live at least another 30 years & his wife longer.

the foundation won't spend down its assets until 50 years after their deaths.

as things stand currently.

i, & likely you as well be be dead before the foundation is.

& bill's children will make a nice living from it.

[BzaDem]

176. OK... let's say it gives away all it's money by 50 years after their deaths.

Are you really saying the money that goes to his kids for personal spending will be MORE than it would be if he simply gave all his money to his kids and paid the taxes on it?

[Hannah Bell]

255. as with another poster, you seem to think the goal of the ruling class is to buy designer gowns

& rolls royces, rather than to control politics & economics.

the gates children have no worries about the amount of "personal" spending they'll be able to do in the future.

control of institutions is what ensures it.

[BzaDem]

286. Oh ok. To you, one cannot give money away without it "controlling politics and economics." n/t

[Hannah Bell]

293. "one" can. but the person who charges microsoft temp workers for desk space

is not into disinterested charity.

[defendandprotect]

192. Who put Gates "in business" -- wasn't it government research paid for by the

taxpayers and turned over to private interests?

Secondly -- Gates is not "giving his money away" -- he has merely adopted

a John Rockfeller public relations attitude --

Foundations are the means of doing that --

[Hannah Bell]

158. the very fact that he *remains* the richest or second-richest person year after year

tells me he cares a great deal about money.

but because he has more money than anyone else in the world, the posters think he somehow doesn't care about it.

lol.

when was the magic year when he stopped caring?

[BzaDem]

166. Just to be clear: to you, it is completely impossible that someone remain one of the richest year

after year, yet simultaneously have good intentions and want to give most of their money away to benefit society?

Forget Bill Gates for a second -- does your view hold in general, regardless of the person?

[Hannah Bell]

270. "want to give away most of their money" -- why hasn't he, then, since he "wants" to?

your question is idiotic.

he has *not* given away most of his money.

he *is not* giving away most of his money. he continues getting richer.

the foundation also continues getting richer.

ergo, he doesn't "want" to give away most of his money.

because it's quite easy to do if he actually "wanted" to.

ergo, your question is idiotic.

[Hannah Bell]

285. no reply, of course. i repeat, if gates "wants" to give away all his money he doesn't

have to set up a tax-sheltered foundation that will exist for at least another 100 years.

why do people fall for this crap?

[BzaDem]

287. Maybe he wants to maximize the good he does with the money

and that is achieved by something other than a lump sum 50 billion dollar payment to some agency?

I have answered your question. Were you going to get around to answering mine? Is it logically impossible for both of the following to be true simultaneously:

a) A person is one of the richest people in the world
b) That person has good intentions and wants to give most of their money away to benefit society

[Hannah Bell]

288. maybe he wants to shape the world to his vision of a never-ending rentier economy.

[BzaDem]

289. So you are still avoiding my question? I answered yours. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

290. i didn't ask *you* a question; yours is idiotic, as i said before, & mine was rhetorical.

it's obvious that you don't need a hundred-year tax-sheltered foundation if you just want to give away your money.

[BzaDem]

296. Perhaps the reason you don't want to answer my question is that you are afraid of how you will look

if you do? I wouldn't blame you if you wanted to run away and call the question "idiotic" as some sort of excuse to not answer it -- people who are afraid of the logical consequences of their own statements do that all the time.

If the question were really that idiotic, you could probably answer it relatively easily (if you weren't afraid of how it would make you look). I will quote a poster in this very thread:

"i notice you didn't answer the question"

(That poster's name is Hannah Bell, post 284.)

[Hannah Bell]

298. no, i'm not afraid of "how i will look". it's an idiotic question. it presupposes.

"i notice you didn't answer the question"

also rhetorical. because the answer is obvious.

if someone "wants" to give away all their money, they don't need a 100-year tax-exempt trust to do it.

[BzaDem]

299. The question has nothing to do with the length of time, yet you continue to avoid it/change subject.

The question simply asks if you believe it is possible for anyone who is one of the world's richest to have good intentions and to want to give away most of their money to the benefit of society. It presupposes nothing -- it simply asks. If you believe the answer is obvious (rather than embarrassing to you), it should be no problem to answer it.

[Hannah Bell]

302. most things are "possible". thanks for the kick.

not likely that a capitalist who charges workers for desk space & invests in fraud is into betting the conditions of workers, however.

[BzaDem]

303. I never said he is interested in bettering the conditions of workers.

That doesn't mean he (or others) aren't interested in bettering the lives of people in any other way.

But thank you for answering.

[Hannah Bell]

304. um, since 95% of the population are workers or their dependents, i guess you mean he's interested

in bettering the lives of his peeps.

thank you for playing.

[BzaDem]

305. So to you, anything that doesn't specifically help conditions at a place of work is not charity? n/t

[Hannah Bell]

306. you've already agreed he's not interested in bettering the conditions of workers.

i said nothing about their "place of work".

look, bill gates is a pig.

i'm not interested in this bullshit discussion.

i've posted numerous facts about the gates foundation & the things gates "invests" in.

you can believe he's god if you like, but i'm not interested in your fantasy.

bill gates has funded a blanket demonization of teachers, he's a union-buster, a rentier, a fraud, & he can go to hell.

[BzaDem]

308. You said "conditions of workers."

That generally is not the same thing as "lives of workers."

For example, fighting malaria is generally not considered improving "conditions of workers" (though if you want to define it that way, go ahead). Now I know you see that some rich person might be fighting malaria and search for some nefarious purpose (such as a patent filed). You will then hold up said patent as "the reason" he is spending (past present or future) so much money fighting malaria. Despite the fact that he doesn't need to spend ONE PENNY using the invention to keep the patent.

[Hannah Bell]

309. he's not spending so much money "fighting malaria". he's spending money on

vaccine research & patent trolling.

we already know how to "fight malaria;" it's been done successfully many times.

including in the us.

without any goddamn vaccines.

he's a fraud.

and poor children in the third world are the lab rats for his cut-rate drug trials.

[BzaDem]

313. Actually, patent trolling is pretty cheap. Not expensive.

But it's entertaining for you to say someone investing money in vaccine research is a "fraud" for doing so. Your post speaks for itself. Wondering if you would say the same thing about an AIDS vaccine.

Or are you an anti-vaxer as well?

[Hannah Bell]

314. yes, that must be it.

http://techrights.org/2010/06/21/myhrvold-and-gates-monopoly/

[BzaDem]

316. "A closer look at the press release shows that there may be patents involved."

Gasp! There might be patents involved! That means all of the money (or even most of the money) being spent must be on patents, and not helping eradicate malaria!

:sarcasm:

"This conflict of interests might not be as desired as it a coincidental one and in some cases it may also be innocent <1, 2>, but sometimes it’s just hard to ignore, given that medical professionals too are complaining."

Oh OK. Well at least they're going far beyond what you are saying, and admitting that just maybe when you try to give away tens of billions there are going to be lots of conflicts of interests.

But feel free to embarrass yourself and continue this "Gasp! A Patent!" nonsense. With a touch of "Fuck (billy/gates) and his _____."

[jmowreader]

159. I think he needs a new revenue stream to replace software

Gates' biggest problem is that his current product line is full of things you spend big money on once.

If you have a copy of Windows, you don't need a new one until they release an update that isn't horrific. Same deal with Office.

Xbox 360s? You probably aren't going to buy a second one if you've already got one, unless it's so each child will have one in his or her room. When the Xbox 720 comes out, you might buy one then IF it will play Xbox 360 games.

They've got Windows Phone, but I can't see him making a hell of a lot per piece on that product line considering that cell phones are the 21st Century Razor: they give you a phone to get you to buy cell service. Oh yeah: Google and Apple already own that market.

So...privatized education. Every child needs to go to school for 12 years. Every year there are new children to start the cycle afresh. Every year there are new things to teach the children. And the taxpayers will pay for every child to be educated on a per-piece basis. It's a perfect racket for him.

I must add that Gates Philanthropy always has strings attached. In the 1990s the Gates Foundation was giving schools money to buy computers, but one of the requirements was that the school district remove all non-Windows computers before the Gates machines could come in. A LOT of Macintoshes were taken out of schools in that era.

[Hannah Bell]

162. yep. & people say, "oh, how does MS benefit from its gifts to schools & libraries"? duh, or what.

[defendandprotect]

193. Wow ... didn't know that about Gates and the school computers ... !!

[Ramulux]

163. Who knows

I dont really care what he thinks hes doing. All I know is that he is supporting programs that will massively harm public education in this country. Whether he knows that or just doesn't understand what hes saying isn't really a concern of mine.

[mmonk]

170. What benefit would a learning disabled kid get from being denied

to attend a charter school? What benefit would that kid get from a public school starved from funds or not having adequatelty trained teachers for special needs?

[Kip Humphrey]

173. He needs America to be dumb enough to buy his Windows products

[defendandprotect]

194. "Word Perfect" sucks -- one of the most annoying programs ever ... !!!

And for the rest of it -- save me!!

[fascisthunter]

189. As I Stated before... I'll STick with Teachers who really Give a Damn

and not some greedy billionaire who made a living stealing ideas from others.

[JackRiddler]

191. What benefit do you get from asking loaded questions? Do you work for Gates Foundation PR?

I am not saying you do, but merely reminding that if you have any interests in this matter (as a grant recipient, for example, or other beneficiary of the Gates or other proponents of the kind of "school reform" he supports), it would be honest of you to reveal them. Thanks.

[JVS]

214. To justify expansion of the H1B visa program and keep labor costs low for Microsoft.

[WestSeattle2]

234. Public education is failing millions of families across this

country. That's why you see millions of families, from across the political spectrum, supporting education reform. Left, right and center all agree that public education is broken; there are very few arguing for the status quo.

There are really three different public school systems in this country. One is found in smaller more rural areas, where parents take education seriously, are active in supporting their schools, and hold teachers and administrators accountable. The second is found in larger, wealthier suburbs, where parents take education seriously, are active in the schools, hold teachers and administrators accountable, and where financing public schools is never an issue. There is no shortage of money. The third system is found in large, urban cities. All too often parents in these districts don't take education seriously, are not involved in the schools, do not hold anyone accountable, including themselves, for the education of their children, and by no coincidence, these districts are chronically underfunded.

How can there be a "one size fits all" solution to the public school crisis, when two out of the three systems are healthy and function just fine? The real problem is with the third system, found in many large, urban cities. Unfortunately, that failed system is responsible for educating millions of kids, and is failing miserably.

The American Federation of Teachers, while disagreeing with Bill Gates on some policies and facts, has a very positive working relationship with him and his foundation. They both agree that the current system is broken. http://www.aft.org/newspubs/news/2010/122010newsweek.cfm

There are so many variables that contribute to the failure of public education in the third system including: lack of parental involvement, poor administration, lack of financial support in some districts, outside influences (drugs and gangs), and lack of initiative on the part of many students, that no one group can be held responsible. The entire system is broken, and that system includes the broader community.

One thing is for certain: Bill and Melinda Gates do have the best interests of American kids in their hearts. Some teachers may feel threatened by their reform efforts, but that only begs the question - why? Why do they feel so threatened when tens of thousands of other teachers do not?

Every time I speak to this issue on this board, I get flamed by those teachers who feel threatened. What's interesting is that I receive private emails from DU teachers who support reform, but who feel so intimidated by other teachers that they won't speak out publicly - I think that speaks volumes.

[Vinnie From Indy]

238. Thank you for this post!

I hope all DU'ers reflect on the fact that those most savagely attacking Gates on this thread are not only attacking his efforts in education, but demonizing him as a person. They flat out call him evil and insist that ALL he has done with his foundation is evil. I guess for some of them even handing out mosquito nets for free to people all over the world to prevent Malaria has some nefarious evil end goal.

[WestSeattle2]

252. There is a lot of venom spewed on this board, but only by a few.

For the most part, I find DUer's reasonable, rational and willing to engage in civil debate.

[Hannah Bell]

247. right. public education is the cause of "broken families," & bill & melinda

are the nice mommy/daddy with the "best interest of american kids in their hearts".

what a load of crap.

yeah, show me all those emails from "DU teachers".

And if they're so easily "intimidated" by discussion on an anonymous chatboard, however would they manage to teach -- particularly in the "inner city schools" which are where the problems of public education are concentrated?

As I posted earlier, in 20% of states teachers work without union protection/binding contract, subject to summary firing -- yet the results, if anything, are worse than in unionized states/districts.

[WestSeattle2]

251. Well, once again Hannah, you're going off the deep end and putting

words in people's mouths. Who said public education was the cause of broken families? I surely didn't, but then you can't be bothered with actually reading what people write before you spew your venom.

[Hannah Bell]

256. you still haven't shown me the emails from du teachers. you may remove identifiers.

you're right, i didn't read your post well.

all i needed to read was that bill & melinda have the best interests of americans at heart to know the rest was crap.

you don't get to be the richest person in the world by caring about the interests of others.

bill gates is the prime funder of propaganda that has scapegoated & demonized teachers as a class & you accuse *me* of venom?

get a grip.

[ItNerd4life]

259. Nicely phrased and you even edumacated some of us. nt

[immoderate]

236. Peter Principle -- Horizontal move to reach level of incompetence.

Having run the table at corporate piracy, or whatever it is he does, Gates turns to an area where he has no competence at all, thereby guaranteeing failure. So he'll keep trying.

Observe Schwartznegger. Body builder, totally successful, Mr. Fucking Universe!. So he tries movies. Becomes Hollywood icon. "I'll be back!" So he leaves to become governor. "Hasta la vista, baby." Flop! Where does he go? Education? :scared: I hope he can build houses.

Oprah is another billionaire dilettante meddling in education. She has her own fucking network! So she's buying schools to "Ohperate."

--imm

[JackRiddler]

265. Such a simple, obvious and brilliant insight.

The Peter Principle, I mean.

[immoderate]

271. Yep. It explains so much.

--imm

[nadinbrzezinski]

242. He actually believes what he is selling

I'll give him that much. And since we believe self made billionaires know shit...

If he starts talking code, I am willing to listen. Education, far from his area of expertise...

[ItNerd4life]

261. You bring up great points and ask great questions.

People are afraid of change. People live in comfort zones and don't like to step out of them.
It's much easier for them to complain about a system than actually fix it.

I know many teachers who want to see these types of changes, but they stay quiet because of the vocal ones who don't want to change
and don't want to be held accountable. Sadly, change like this many times has to be forced. It's like dragging a kicking and screaming
child out of a store. It's best for them in the long run, but they will not like it.

[Hannah Bell]

269. lol. "best for them in the long run". who elected bill gates -- or *you* -- to decide?

fuck gates & his bought-off minions.

[Vinnie From Indy]

283. You do your cause no favors with this type of post

I hope all DU'ers reflect on your efforts to bully, demean and insult anyone that even slightly disagrees with you on this thread.

Cheers!

[Hannah Bell]

284. lol. i notice you didn't answer the question, just attack. as per usual.

the only "bullying" comes from the gates minions who are funding a massive propaganda campaign to demean & demonize teachers & blame them for all social ills.

which are in fact mainly due to the class funding the attacks.

fuck gates & his minions.

[ipaint]

276. Absolutely correct.

Of course "reform" aka change must be forced on kicking and screaming citizens because the reform FAILED. Teacher testing FAILS. Gates and his filthy rich friends are lousy at democracy and the concept of the public commons. They FAIL.

It seems the only way rich authoritarian assholes and their many bootlickers can achieve this particular giant step backwards is through force starting with those in poor neighborhoods.

Drag them kicking and screaming, that's fucking progressive. :banghead:

Would this be an example of violently dragging communities towards Gates/Duncan/Broad/Obama/Walton's version of "change"?

"Arne Duncan has overseen the beginning destruction of neighborhood schools with neighborhood students. Schools are no longer community pillars because many students no longer live in the area. When CPS closes schools and reopens them as Renaissance 2010 charter or contract schools, there is no guarantee or requirement that students who attended the old schools will go to the new ones-and many don't. For example, not all new schools are the same grade level as the old schools. There are complicated applications and deadlines, limits on enrollment, requirements of families, and informal selection processes that may disadvantage some students.

Families with multiple children who used to attend one school have had to scramble as schools close and their children are split up. Young children who walked to their neighborhood school have had to leave their community and cross heavily trafficked streets. Schools that are "turned around" terminate all adults in the building, including security, custodial, clerical, paraprofessional, and kitchen staff (as if they contributed to students' poor performance), causing severe dislocation and job loss in the community. Tenured teachers who are released are reassigned for 10 months as negotiated in the union contract. During this time, they receive their salary and benefits, sub some days of the week, and look for a position on other days. At the end of the 10 months if they have not found a position, they can be "honorably terminated."As one parent of a child in a closing school said, "when you close a school, you kill the heart of the community."

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/29-10


Or maybe this from the same article:

Dumping Democracy

"In a democratic society, instruments of engagement allow citizen voice in decision-making processes. In Chicago education, that instrument is Local School Councils (LSCs). The most powerful parent, community, and teacher, local-school, decision-making structures in the country, LSCs' responsibilities include hiring principals, monitoring budgets, and developing school improvement plans. With support, LSCs have demonstrated that they are effective models of local school decision-making. A 2005 Designs for Change study of 144 of the most successful neighborhood schools in Chicago serving primarily low-income students listed effective LSCs as a key reason for success. Despite this and other evidence documenting LSC effectiveness, CPS, under Duncan, has worked tirelessly to weaken LSCs by whittling away at their authority.

he LSCs came out of the grassroots movement to elect Harold Washington, Chicago's first black mayor, in 1983. Parents and community members across the city made alliances and worked with school reformers to fight for local school councils, which the state legislature created when they passed the 1988 Chicago School Reform Act. Chicago's LSCs are probably the most radical school reform in the country and are the largest body of elected, low-income people of color (especially women) in the United States.

Duncan publicly stated in April 2007 that he wanted to break the "monopoly" of the LSCs, and in October 2007, Board of Education president Rufus Williams, in a speech to the City Club of Chicago-a major grouping of business people-likened LSCs running schools to having a chain of hotels being run by "those who sleep in the hotels." Nor is this attitude merely rhetorical. Until 2007, when public scrutiny exposed them, Duncan's office overseeing LSCs had a staff of 7 facilitators to train and develop LSCs at nearly 600 schools. This leaves LSCs operating at a structural deficit-set up to fail."

When you close a school you kill the heart of the community. And when you kill the community you steal their power over decisions made regarding their children's lives.
Maybe that's why people kick and scream, well that and the fact Gates little education experiment of the last decade failed miserably.

[JackRiddler]

278. So where do you know all these "many teachers" who want the Gates program?

[Citizen Worker]

264. It's simple if you think about it. The conversion of public education to charter schools, vouchers

and all out private schools represents the destruction of the last vestiges of working class institutions. There weren't many to begin with, churches and places of worship, Labor Unions and public schools. Churches have been supplanted by fundamentalist right wing wacko institutions, Labor Unions are all but extinct, that leaves public schools the last one standing that was created by and for the working class.

[Hannah Bell]

267. +100.

[leftstreet]

311. +1

Well said

[girl gone mad]

315. You received many excellent answers.

I hope that you will set aside your "rage" and reflect on them.

[Exilednight]

322. It's quite simple. Keep Americans dumb and stupid

and then he can outsource tech jobs that requires a college degree to countries where he can pay those same people pennies on the dollar. Why pay an American $60k to a $100k a year when you can pay a person in India or China a small fraction of that amount.