I saw something amazing at a Tucson vigil last night...

[Wetzelbill]

This was the vigil outside of the University Medical Center where Gabby Giffords is currently being cared for.

You know the "Peace Not Crosshairs" sign? My friend, his girlfriend and I watched the woman who made it take it down. My friend and I approached her after she took it and he asked her why she was taking it down. She then explained to us that it was her sign and that she made it while she was angry, and after seeing it on the news and on websites all week she started to feel a little different about it. And after Obama's speech at the memorial event, she didn't feel as angry anymore. She told us that "it was time to forgive".

I just felt I would share that with everybody.

http://fcdcc.org/images-site/20110110-action-alert

[Whoa_Nelly]

1. Thanks for sharing this

:hug:

[Wetzelbill]

5. You're welcome!

[walldude]

2. While I respect this woman...

that is exactly why this is going to happen again. After a couple of days of being hammered in the press, after being blamed for making the right feel victimized, we step back, we back off, we start to feel like yeah maybe we were over the top.


WE WERE NOT OVER THE TOP.

If you feel differently about this today then you did the day it happened. Ask yourself.. why. Do you feel different because you were wrong? Or do you feel different because the media told you you were wrong?

[Wetzelbill]

4. you can fight and forgive at the same time nt

[Whoa_Nelly]

8. +1

Some people get this...like you! :hug: :hi: :loveya: :hippie:



Think Peace

[bobbolink]

13. Brilliantly said.

Thank you.

[Dappleganger]

16. You've got that right!

[lunatica]

10. What makes you think non-violence is giving up?

Take a moment and think of Martin Luther King Jr's birthday coming up tomorrow and what a difference he made.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. You are exactly correct

That sign should be permanently mounted there.

[Electric Monk]

3. Maybe she realized it was a Mercedes logo and got embarrassed?

[sabrina 1]

6. It isn't a question of forgiveness, you can forgive, and then

deal with the danger that has already resulted in violence against democrats. Moving forward again, means a continuation of the hateful speech that drove another would be killer to try to slaughter members of the ACLU and the The Tide Foundation.

It drove the other attacks on Rep. Giffords and on Rep. Grijalva and forced members of Congress to stop holding Town Hall meetings with their constituents.

As Bernie Sanders asked this week 'does the atmosphere of hatred and violence in Az make it impossible for those who are not Republicans to be engaged in politics there'? Or words to that effect. Even Republicans are stepping down in that state, fearful of violence against themselves and their families.

We don't 'move on' for other acts of violence or threatening speech in this country. If we did we would have anarchy, which it is coming close to in this country.

Forgive, yes, but move on and try to ignore this dangerous climate until the next time? And there will be a next time, there always is. I don't think so, not in a country that purports to live by the rule of law and that claims to be a Democracy.

[Wetzelbill]

7. From the way she was saying it

and the rest of what she and her friends were talking about -- I can't remember exactly what they said just the general tone and theme of the conversation - I took it to mean that it was a healing process for her. Not to just give up and move on and ignore the climate. We all live here, we know what it's like, anybody who has been in Tucson for the last several years understands how ugly it is and it predates the Tea Party too. It isn't just one thing or one tragic event, you can't forgive and forget. I took it to mean that she wanted to forgive and heal from this tragedy so instead of mourning she could get back to something constructive again.

[sabrina 1]

15. Something has to be done

about this violence and once again turning the other cheek and sweeping it under the rug is not the answer. I'm far more concerned about the future innocent victims of this than I am about the welfare of the perpetrators or of giving them any kind of credibility.

I'd far rather not have anything to forgive them for in the future, that would be the best thing for them and the rest of us.

I have lots of friends in Az having just left their less than a year ago myself. And they very much want this addressed and very strongly.

Her sign was great, I saw nothing about it that could do anything other than make a plea for peace rather violence.

As a teacher I know this, when you repeatedly ignore bad behavior in children it only gets worse until one day those kids end up like Loughner. Bad teachers feed into the pathology by 'forgiving' too often rather than directly dealing with problems.

I'm for treating the problem whatever it is before it is so out of control it is too late. That is where we are with this rightwing hate speech, it was allowed to go too far.

As far as healing from the tragedy, we're trying to heal from all the others, but they just keep happening which it makes it very hard to heal and 'move on'.

Anyhow, thank you for the post ~ I hope the loved of the victims find some peace. Having been where they are, the real pain starts when everyone starts getting back to their own lives. So, I wish them peace during that process ~

[Wetzelbill]

17. you missed the whole point

It's not about sweeping it under the rug or giving anybody credibility. Not sure how you get that out of it. It's about getting over anger, healing and finding a better way to deal with the situation. Again as I said earlier on this thread, you can fight and forgive at the same time. If a person or a community dwells on one thing, can't ever get over it, they'll lose focus and always be one step behind what they should be fighting for.

[sabrina 1]

22. I didn't miss the point. I got the point that the message

from the president influenced her. This is the president who also thought that moving forward from war crimes was the best way to go.

What is his solution to end the violence of the far right? I haven't heard it yet. There have been many incidents, a whole list of them actually, where people have been murdered as a direct result of the violent rhetoric coming from Beck et al and nothing has been done about it. This tragedy apparently was not directly due to the rhetoric, but Rep. Giffords and Rep. Grijalva were both the victims of attacks directly related to it.

So, what are the plans to end it and make it possible for democrats to safely participate in the political process? Another Democrat, also on Sarah Palin's target map, was attacked recently too.

Forgiving this gunman is not that difficult, he is clearly mentally disturbed. And unless someone is directly related to one of the victims, moving past the tragedy will be all too easy once the cameras go away, that is how it always is. Until the next time.

Anyhow, I hope that something will be done so that those who are the cause of the current hateful atmosphere are marginalized and de-legitimized and that won't happen if they are not made aware of the fact that their behavior and advocacy of '2nd amendment solutions' is simply not acceptable.

And both sides are not doing it, that is the first thing that needs to be established so that the culprits are not allowed to hide behind excuses like 'this is normal political rhetoric'.

[Wetzelbill]

24. "you can forgive, and then deal with the danger that has already resulted in violence ...

against democrats."

You can't type that and then go on on several posts because that is what somebody has done.

"Forgiving this gunman is not that difficult, he is clearly mentally disturbed. And unless someone is directly related to one of the victims, moving past the tragedy will be all too easy once the cameras go away, that is how it always is. Until the next time."

Again, you can't say forgiving the gunman is difficult, then continue to go on about somebody who has done that.

As for the rest, we've been living and fighting this stuff in this community long before you or most others thought about it. Giffords is our congresswoman and this was such a tragic event that it only put us in the spotlight right now. But even before SB1070 or Jan Brewer or Jesse Kelly and The Tea Party or the battle over immigration the last few years we've been dealing with this stuff. We fought it long before you knew about it and we'll fight it long after the people who forget about it do so. It's just how it is.

[sabrina 1]

25. If it was dealt with now, while the spotlight is on it, you might not

have to keep fighting it. I have lived in Az, and I am very well aware of the atmosphere there. I still have many friends, as I already said, living there. They are very concerned that all this talk of forgiveness will lead to nothing being done, once again as it is interpreted to mean 'moving on' and when the cameras leave, as they leave every tragedy, the violence from the right, who show no signs of remorse, and in fact are actually blaming Rep. Giffords for what happened, implying that she had nothing to fear and was probably just being hystrionic, else she would have 'had security' at the gathering, will continue. Maybe even escalate. These are not people who can be reasoned with. Even after a tragedy like this they are even worse than before.

I don't think you are the only region of the country that has had to deal with this. But as you say, you've been dealing with it for a long time, as has the rest of the country. And the REASON for that is that Democrats do NOT stand up to bullies. Sorry, but listening to the conversation from Democrats except for a few, like Bernie Sanders, nothing will be done. Democrats want to play nice and that's fine, except you can't do that until you address the problems.

Anyhow, I am glad people are willing to forgive, I see nothing to be gained from holding on to anger and seeking revenge. What is needed is to apply the rule of law where it is warranted, and to stand up against those who would undermine this democracy. Those are two separate things.

[Ptah]

9. Thanks for sharing this, Bill.

A little off topic, but that is a moving memorial.

[Wetzelbill]

11. yes for sure

You're welcome, Ptah.

[Wheezy]

12. Very cool

So glad you shared that!

[Wetzelbill]

18. you're welcome!

[bobbolink]

14. Its interesting you bring this up. I got an email from TIKKUN today, and Rabbi Lerner

said much the same thing.

I was trying to copy and paste it for you, but I'm having bad mouse problems, and couldn't get it to work.

Here it is on the web:


http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/when-generosity-love-and-kindness-are-public-policy-the-violence-we-saw-in-arizona-will-dramatically-diminish/

I would appreciate your comments on this.

Thanks!

[Wetzelbill]

19. hey good to see you, my friend!

I will read that article and PM you a little later on.

[bobbolink]

26. GREAT to see you, and thanks for bringing this up. It is a "conversation" we all need to have, if

we can do it without attacks on each other.

I appreciate that you will read it..... I posted about it...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x211875

...and would enjoy your comments there.....

I hope things are well with you....life pretty much sux on this end. :(

:pals:

[Number23]

20. Sounds like a wise (and incredibly strong) person.

[Quantess]

21. She should have kept it up.

It's her sign to take down, but I have to say I disagree with her.

[JoePhilly]

28. I agree ... her version got me to make this ...

I didn't make that out of anger, but because I felt that her basic point (peace not violence) could be captured in 3 simple symbols.

And she should not have felt bad for pointing that out, even if she was angry when she made her sign.

[ProudDad]

27. You can still see it in this video

Fifteen Tucson Peace and Justice groups answer the Media's rhetorical questions regarding the Tucson Massacre of Saturday, January 8th.

Although press conference was given on the lawn in front of the medical center, among the trucks, communication
vehicles, stage setups, cameras and reporters from every major national media conglomerate, the voices of Tucson's
peace and justice organizations were completely ignored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uS5ICUUeU8