Based on what you know to this point, does Pima Community College bear any guilt in what happened?

[Stinky The Clown]

They had been aware of his bizarre behavior for a while. His ranting video, posted to YouTube, was the last straw. They dispatched four campus police officers to his house. The officers told him he was suspended until he sought mental health treatment. The college said they felt this was their duty, in the protection of students.

[bbinacan]

1. Yes and

the Pima County Sheriffs Office, and the local police.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. Morally or ethically you may be right. Legally they did the correct thing

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

2. They were consistent with the state of response to these incidents...

I don't know that any campus has policies in place to go further. If we were like most European countries where there was access for all to health care, including mental health care, I would argue that they could have gone further. Unfortunately that is not the case in this country. I hope I live long enough to see that change.

[Cid_B]

7. Yup.. nothing like that happens in Europe...

Oh wait...

Socialized health care and extensive gun restrictions... Didn't seem to make a difference



___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A gunman dressed in military gear killed 15 people Wednesday in a shooting spree in Germany, police said.

Tim Kretschmer, 17, began his rampage at a school where he used to be a student in Winnenden, a small town about 20 kilometers (12 miles) northeast of Stuttgart.

Most of the victims at the school were female -- eight female students, three female teachers and one male student, said Heribert Rech, interior minister for Baden Wuerttemberg region.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-11/world/germany.school.shooting_1_police-shootout-students-and-teachers-officers-in-civilian-clothes?_s=PM:WORLD

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[hlthe2b]

27. Exactly WHERE did I say this doesn't happen in Europe?

Don't put arguments in my posts that I am clearly not making.

I was speaking to the question asked in the OP and stated that access to health care, including mental health care would impact colleges and universities who might want to go further with a student experiencing mental breakdown or other similar behavior.

Your argument is one you want to make, but it has nothing to do with the point I was making. Of course incidents like these happen in other countries, though prevalence is lower in most industrialized countries. Regardless, that was not what I was discussing--at all.

[former9thward]

20. Where is there any evidence he did not have access to mental health care?

He obviously did not take advantage of it but there is no evidence that he did not have access to or was denied mental health care.

[hlthe2b]

26. I'm speaking generically.. A large proportion of Americans do not

The question was whether Pima CC bore any guilt and I tried to answer in comparison to what other universities and colleges did. I was providing a generic comment. Because mental health care (and general health care) is not universal in this country, colleges would encounter issues that constrain them in going beyond a certain line.

[RKP5637]

3. IMO Pima Community College took an appropriate action. Where the fault lies

is in how our communities, states, country handles issues such as this. Without knowing any more than what MSM has reported, it sounded like he needed some psychological help. As another poster said, we do not have a health care system that works in these situations. Not that the horrid state institutions were any good, but I do hope for one time when this county comes more together as a country for people than greed and profit at any cost to a society.

[EFerrari]

10. Everything everyone else does is in response to the health insurance vultures.

And, to their enablers, I guess.

[RKP5637]

12. Yep, it's the root cause of a lot of problems in the US. IMO, although something

has been done, it's far from fixed.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. No. They had no resources to do other than what they did,

and no right.

Unless there was good reason to believe that he posed an imminent danger to himself or others, the cops couldn't do anything either. A person in the US has the right to be mentally ill and refuse treatment unless the imminent danger criterion is met. I have fought that battle many times in the courts. And when you do get someone involuntarily detained and transported to a hospital, they are usually back on the streets within 72 hours, if only because they have no insurance.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

24. Exactly

[SoCalDem]

31. and after an involuntary, they are likely to be convinced then

that "someone is out to get them"..and may even be vengeful & angry about the detention..

[LisaL]

5. What would you have them do?

[Stinky The Clown]

29. I asked the question to spur some discussion.

I actually think they did all they could.

I also find it alarming that some would say the parents had more responsibility.

[Brickbat]

6. My goodness, no. Why would it?

[fishwax]

8. no. n/t

[EFerrari]

9. What?!

I couldn't get my own husband hospitalized when he was observably psychotic on multiple occasions. No one will take on the liability, starting with the insurance companies and all the way on down the food chain.

[XanaDUer]

13. No

nt.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. No

[Liquorice]

15. IMO, this tragedy was a failure of Loughner's community, including his college, and also

our health care system. Many people knew Loughner was very unstable and quite possibly dangerous, but nobody apparently did anything about it. His family may well have behaved negligently as well, but I don't know what kind of help (if any) they tried to get for him. From what I've read, Loughner's father knew his son was up to no good the day of the shooting and chased after him. He should have called the police and told them his son was dangerous.

[blueamy66]

16. PCC and the parents

they both dropped the ball

[moondust]

18. Maybe.

I don't know what kind of powers the PCC campus police themselves have but...at some point in the course of their FIVE "talks" with the shooter I think they should have at least notified Tucson Police or local sheriff who would have the power to hold him for 24 hours (involuntary 24-hour holds are sometimes used in domestic disputes/abuse/danger) pending a psych evaluation, and that can be extended beyond 24 hours if deemed necessary by a panel of (often three) psychiatrists. Local laws may vary.

[moondust]

28. Sorry.

That's a 72-hour involuntary psychiatric hold, otherwise known as a 5150.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28Involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29

"If you are placed on a 72-hour hold (also known as a “5150”) as a danger to self or others and admitted to a facility for treatment, you are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms for five years from the date of admission to the facility."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment

"In Arizona, the government can mandate in-patient treatment for anyone determined to be "persistently or acutely disabled." Virtually anyone who suspects that someone has mental problems and needs help could file an application to a state-licensed healthcare agency for a court-ordered evaluation."

[Ozymanithrax]

19. The stopped him from endangering the students on their campus...

I'm not sure what power they had beyond insisting he get help before he returned.

Arizona gutted mental health programs, I would think they have a bit more responsibility.

A majority of Arizona citizens prefer a state where weapons are easy to buy, and thus every citizen bears some responsibility when people get murdered. As citizens, they have a duty to make sure their state is safe. A majority don't seem to give a damn and murder is the fee for the way they choose to live.

[madinmaryland]

21. What more could they do, based on the information that we have?

He threatened no-one in the school. Do we call the cops for every college kid that acts "odd"?

:shrug:

[JohnnyLib2]

22. No, and it's not at all realistic to think so.

Post 4 says it well.

[Quantess]

23. No. What more could they have done?

[tnlefty]

25. My oldest is in his third year at MTSU and when

he and I went for parent/student orientation it was made very clear to me that his Dad and I had no access to his grades, etc., unless he gave us permission. From what I see, the college did what they could by suspending him from the campus until a mental health evaluation was done on him, and talked to his parents in their home.

However, I did ask my son, as neither of us s familiar with the law in AZ and we decided that we should find out more about the law in TN, if his father who apparently chased his son into the desert, or any parent, had called the police with a description of the son would the police have been allowed to:

stop him in traffic? Probably, but he took a cab...

search the black diaper bag he purchased the his father was so concerned about? We were sketchy on that...

if the parents had alerted anyone who could have sold him a firearm or ammo? Again we weren't familiar enough with the laws...

[SoCalDem]

30. I don;t think so.. They escorted him to his home (or visited him there)

and TOLD him and his parents that he would NOT be allowed on the premises until he had clearance from a mental health professional..

At that point he had not been violent, so the police would not have been of much help, and it was probably against some law for them to even report him.

Acting out in class and creeping out teachers/students is not a crime.

The parents had the ball dumped in their court and they either took no action, didn't know how to take action, or just hoped things would improve on their own:(

[Statistical]

32. No the "system" failed

Our current set of laws & procedures didn't provide a satisfactory resolution to this issue.

It isn't like the school had an option and didn't take it. They had no other option.

His actions while disturbing didn't rise to the level of an invol commitment.