sex trafficking at the Super Bowl

[handmade34]

http://superbowlblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/11/abbott-talks-about-sex-traffic.html

http://humantrafficking.change.org/petitions/view/ask_the_super_bowl_host_committee_to_stand_up_and_protect_children

"The trafficking of children for sale at the Super Bowl is well documented. Texas Attorney General Abbott is taking a stand and has prepared a task force to identify and respond to traffickers who plan to sell children at the Super Bowl. However, it is not enough to expect law enforcement and victim advocates to bear the entire burden of responding to this issue, which is expected to include many victims. In support of the efforts of the task force, we are requesting the Super Bowl Host Committee embrace a proactive approach with community members by endorsing the “I’m Not buying It” campaign, which would raise awareness and deter the buying of children during the Super Bowl..."

[seabeyond]

1. interesting. and excellent that they are making a greater demand of society as a whole

i think this is a good step

[MineralMan]

2. Where is this documentation? I'd like to look at it.

I have no doubt whatever that there is plenty of prostitution around the Super Bowl, just as there is at ever large convention or other gathering that brings thousands of people into a city. But, I don't see the evidence mentioned in this petition drive for child prostitution going on on a wholesale basis during Super Bowls. If you can link me to some of that documentation, that'd be great.

[AngryAmish]

3. I call shenanigans

This is like the myth that domestic violence against women spikes during the Super Bowl. The thing about the Super Bowl is that it is a large event and not much news until the game, so connecting your cause to the Super Bowl in the run-up to the Super Bowl generates publicity and money.

[whathehell]

10. It'a an excellent cause, regardless...the trafficking of kids in the U.S. is hugely underreported.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. "The testosterone-fueled Super Bowl is expected to generate as much traffic for prostitutes..."

I agree. This is some kind of a PR deal. Here in Portland we had a giant mass freakout about PDX being some kind of "hub" of child prostitution trafficking, not long ago. Someone checked the stats, and it's just. not. true.

First off, I think anyone convicted of actually doing that should go to jail for a long, long time.

Secondly, I think that prostitution- between consenting adults- should be legal.

Third, I am wary of any awareness campaign that seeks- intentionally or unintentionally- to blur the lines between activities engaged in by adults, and exploitation of non-adults. Some of the press I've read around this lately seems to do this, as if someone somewhere realized they were losing the PR battle against adult porn and prostitution, so they felt the need to conflate it with abuse of underage kids.

Fourth, I can't help thinking there is a large, orchestrated campaign that is right now relying on distorting facts and figures to garner instant headlines. This, and the prior Portland stories make me think this. However well-intentioned the cause may be, distortion and hyperbole don't serve anyone's interests long-term.

[WolverineDG]

91. It's not a myth

as someone who works with victims of domestic violence, there is a noticeable spike in DV calls, protective orders, arrests after the Super Bowl. However, the holiday with the largest spike in DV calls/etc is Mother's Day. :(

dg

[handmade34]

8. one is too many...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/crime/stories/DN-sbprostitution_13met.ART.Central.Edition1.1486d3d.html

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/97105/20110103/prostitution.htm

http://abolitionistjb.blogspot.com/2010/11/human-trafficking-and-2011-super-bowl.html

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=11965638

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2010/November/Texas-AG-Super-Bowl-Magnet-for-Sex-Trafficking/

http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-report/child-sex-traffickers-capitalize-on-super-bowl.html

http://www.traffick911.com/page/events

I could go on...

[whathehell]

13. Damn right....this is a truly sickening situation. n/t

[MineralMan]

20. OK. The Dallas News article doesn't mention children at all.

The Hawaii News Now site mentions one 16 year old whose pimp was arrested. The rest of the sites are advocacy sites, along with a Right-wing Christian news site.

The thing is that there's no documentation of the sort of wholesale child prostitution mentioned in that petition. There's lots of speculation, but no documentation.

No doubt there are under-aged prostitutes at events like this. There are under-aged prostitutes in every city in this country. It's a problem that needs to be fixed. However, the meme that "hundreds" of child prostitutes come to Super Bowl cities is not supported by actual evidence. Some are brought there, no doubt. I'd be surprised if they weren't. And that's a very bad thing.

Show me some actual evidence, not speculation. If it exists, then I'll get more angered by it. If not, then I'll just be generally angry about the child prostitution that takes place in every major city. The Super Bowl is just one event.

My objection is that the problem is appears to be overstated for some reason or another. I like factual information, not speculation.

[ChazII]

9. Still trying to find the Super Bowl but

in the meantime here is link with some information:

http://www.childrenofthenight.org/faq.html

Hope this helps.

[tinymontgomery]

62. Why the hell don't we change the law

that was passed in 74. My goodness, it seems the problem grew when that law was passed. Then again I could be completely off track.

[ChazII]

21. SUPER BOWL link to child prostitution

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/02/04/83780/volunteers-fight-dark-side-of.html

ETA:
"The Super Bowl is obviously a really big deal for prostitution," Sandy Skelaney, a program manager at Kristi House, a program for sexually abused children, told the group. "We have a bunch of girls being brought down by pimps."

Just as police, hoteliers, restaurateurs and retailers have prepared for the big game, so too have children's advocates. For weeks, volunteers have printed fliers, prepared scripts and organized outreach teams in an effort to identify — and, with luck — rescue girls who are being forced into prostitution.

Last year, when the Super Bowl was held in Tampa, the Florida Department of Children & Families took in 24 children who were brought to the city to serve as sex workers, said Regina Bernadin, DCF's statewide human-trafficking coordinator.

[Octafish]

65. Thank you.

Heartbreaking to read.

Stopping the abuse of children is something we -- as in US Government or Coporate McPravda -- have failed to do.

Remember ex-Rep. Mark Foley (R-Dreamboy) was charged with leading the subcommittee on missing and exploited children.

[Ezlivin]

4. They are putting up billboards in the area with the photos of "johns"

who were caught with prostitutes.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/01/14/2770467/arlington-police-using-billboards.html

I say they should legalize and regulate prostitution. Then the Super Bowl could add millions more to the local economy.

[whathehell]

7. We're talking about CHILDREN here!

[handmade34]

11. I support legal prostitution 100%

this is different

[seabeyond]

12. why? edited to clarify

why do you support legalized prostitution. not why is it different. of course this is different.

[handmade34]

14. sex between consenting adults

is none of my business...

[seabeyond]

15. that is the one argument i am not going to argue. nt

[Kalyke]

19. No it's none of mine, either, but most prostitutes are NOT

"consenting," they are being coerced by a pimp or an addiction or poverty.

That's hardly consent.

[whathehell]

24. In addition to the mounds of evidence which shows that the vast majority were abused as kids. n/t

[jeff47]

41. This may sound cruel

But that doesn't matter when it comes to making prostitution legal or illegal. Once the women are adults, they are responsible for their actions. No matter what happened to them while they were kids.

We're all carrying baggage of some sort from our childhoods. Some have a lot more than others. But part of being an adult is you are responsible for dealing with that baggage, and getting help if you can't.

[Kalyke]

44. Who's going to give them help?

Most a dirt poor, many are addicted and a lot are under someone else's control.

If you have no money for healthcare in this country, then you're S.O.L.

[jeff47]

49. One doesn't "give" help when it comes to mental health

One seeks out help. Help that is only 'given' will not be effective. And if your job is illegal, it's very hard to seek out any help.

(Btw, statistics do not back up your assertions about dirt poor, addicted and under a pimp's control. That is true for streetwalkers, but the majority of prostitutes are not streetwalkers.)

[whathehell]

53. "No matter what happened to them while they were kids"...It doesn't sound cruel, It sounds uncaring

"Being part of being an adult"..Is apparently a lot different for female adults, especially the multitudes who were raped as kids, than male adults.

I wonder if you're attitude would change if you had "skin in the game", no ugly pun intended.

[jeff47]

72. Actually, you're the one differentiating between genders

I'm saying that women are men's equals and both genders have to deal with the problems of their childhood.

You appear to be saying that women who were abused as children are forever children, unable to make decisions as adults. It appears that you believe that women who were abused as children can not be trusted and they must be protected from making "wrong" choices as adults.

[whathehell]

79. That would be your interpretation, not mine.

Please read two of Seabeyond's posts regarding the legalizing of prostitution in England and Sweden.

[jeff47]

88. Actually, I'm the one bringing up England

Because it doesn't fit into the "they're all trafficked!!!" mold. Since the UK spent years trying to rescue trafficked women and found <10 in the entire UK. Most of the women they interviewed didn't want to go back to their home country, because prostitution in the UK was less-bad than life in their poverty-stricken homeland.

And you're completely missing my point. You are infantilizing these women. Do you honestly believe that women can't possibly make adult decisions after they've been abused? If we can't trust them to make adult decisions about prostitution, then how can we trust them to sign contracts or any of the other things that separate adults from children?

Either they're adults and have all the rights and responsibilities of being an adult, or they're children. There is no "we have to save them from this bad decision because they were abused".

Or should we start making all sorts of special exceptions? "Her parents declared bankruptcy, so clearly she could never have learned to manage her finances from her parents. So we'll manage them for her."

[whathehell]

89. Talk to Seabeyond about England, she's more informed on the subject...As to the rest,

what part of "I'm not having that conversation" do you not understand?

You keep trying to force the issue, but I'm not playing..Sorry.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

29. and this is where i pick up the argument. yes kalyke, you are right.

the criminal element

[LexLuthor1]

33. Thats very true..

but I don't see how putting the prostitutes in prison is helping them. Assisting with getting them off drugs (if they happen to be addicts) and away from their pimps would be the best way to help them but that is not law enforcements job. LE may help by throwing the pimps in jail but if these girls are being psychologically dominated or threatened by their pimps that won't keep these girls/women off the streets for long.

[whathehell]

55. Again...How do you feel about the johns being put in prison/jail?

Somehow I'd guess that would bother you a lot more.:eyes:

[jeff47]

39. Some are, some aren't.

Some are indeed turning to prostitution as a last resort.

Some are turning to prostitution because they don't have marketable skills, and it pays a lot better than Wal-Mart. (The majority of prostitutes are not streetwalkers. Most do their work in private residences or hotels.)

The issue is far from black-and-white. But it's clear that making prostitution illegal is woefully ineffective at reducing the problems.

[LawnLover]

40. I'll give you the pimps, but

addiction is often the result of making a bad choice and others don't turn to prostitution to beat poverty. When do we hold the prostitute responsible for making her own choices?

Do you have statistics that show that MOST prostitutes are not consenting? I highly doubt it. This is just something you've pulled out of thin air.

And if prostitution were legal and regulated, any abuse or non-consenting activity would be minimized.

[freeplessinseattle]

58. complete BS n/t

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

76. Hence the decriminalization

Take the pimps out of it and regulate it.

[whathehell]

23. Since at least two studies show that over 92% of prostitutes were ABUSED as kids,

maybe we should have a new definition of "consenting".

[seabeyond]

30. true. nt

[jeff47]

42. No.

Abuse as a child does not permanently make one into a child. They are adults now. They are responsible for their actions.

[whathehell]

54. Easy for you to say.

[jeff47]

87. I believe women are adults with agency instead of children who need extra protection

What, exactly, is wrong with that position?

[whathehell]

90. That's nice...See post number 89.

[whathehell]

68. See post #64

On the other hand, you could just keep asking and answering your own questions.:eyes:

[freeplessinseattle]

59. was the sample street walkers and/or call girls? n/t

[varkam]

63. Are people who were abused as children incapable of consent? eom

[JonLP24]

25. I agree FWIW

Keeping it illegal just means prostitutes are going to continue to go to jail and that makes whatever problems they're facing worse.

[whathehell]

28. How about throwing Johns in jail?...or working to prevent the abuse of daughters which contributes

to the ugly situation?

[seabeyond]

32. sweden had it legalized for the "sake" of prostitutes. it didnt work. resolved by making illegal

for johns and legal for prostitutes.... it has significantly reduced prostitution and allow police to address the criminal elements of prostitution.

[whathehell]

51. Great idea...Thanks for the information. n/t

[Upton]

56. How about not throwing either one of them in jail?

As long as they are both consenting adults, sex in exchange for money should be perfectly legal..

[whathehell]

57. Consenting?

With that word you are implying that both of them are in equal situations which the

posts here informing you of the the manipulation of pimps, the drug addiction and the post trauma of childhhood abuse

negates.

Sorry...it won't play.

[seabeyond]

31. what would making it legal solve? nt

[jeff47]

36. What does keeping it illegal solve?

It's not like making it illegal is actually preventing it. And making it legal could make the situation better for the women involved. Don't need a pimp when police can provide security. Don't need to walk the streets when you can work in a brothel.

It would by no means be a preferred job, but it's better to regulate and provide support for the women than make it illegal and incarcerate them.

(And it really doesn't help that the anti-legalization folks always picture streetwalkers when they think "prostitute". Most of it is done by 'call girls' in hotels and private residences. At the same time, most of the pro-legalization folks gloss over some of the big problems that would arise from legalization. It's not like Nevada's brothels are wonderful)

[seabeyond]

37. in all the countries that legalize it

the have found it has increased sex slaves adn especially child sex slaves. they are looking at ways to address, looking ot sweden. the answer isnt legalization, or criminalizing the prostitutes.

they have found with legalization, the criminal element continues to be there and the police no longer have the ability to address them.

but... you are one of the few that i have seen in the discussion that doesnt "pretty woman" the issue.

[jeff47]

43. Except not

All countries that have legalized it have found their own unique set of problems.

For example, prostitution is de-facto legal in the UK now. The media in the UK spent a lot of time talking about all the sex trafficking and child prostitution going on. So the police spent a whole lot of time and money rounding up a whole lot of people and offering amnesty and safety to the "trafficked". They did not find significant numbers of child prostitutes. And the women who had been trafficked did not want to stop working. They agreed that it wasn't a wonderful job, but they made a lot of money to send back home to their families. Yes, the choice between grinding poverty and prostitution is not a pleasant one, but it is not our choice to make.

Similarly, the Dutch have seen a large influx of eastern-European women trafficked in to flee poverty in their home countries. However, reports from the Netherlands seem to indicate that those women are much more likely to be coerced than the women in the UK.

I haven't seen anything reliable out of Germany where again prostitution is de-facto legal.

The point of making something illegal is to reduce the activity. But anyone who wants a prostitute can get one quite easily. So we're left with the negatives of prostitution along with the negatives of the activity being illegal. Let's make it legal and deal with the negatives of prostitution, instead of washing our hands of the problems and hiding behind "it's illegal".

[seabeyond]

60. except.... uh hu. sweden solution has been most effect. decriminalize prostitution, criminalize

doesnt go after the gals that are in a world of hurt. allows cops to do their jobs. and the users are punished. one of the reasons they found an issue in these countries are there are not enough women willing to prostitute themselves out and the deman higher than number of prostitutes. so criminal element brings in sex slaves.

[jeff47]

71. You'd have a point

if it wasn't for the fact that the Johns already get arrested.

Typically the punishment is greater for the girls, but we already arrest the Johns. Yet if you live in a major city you can get a prostitute to your door faster than a pizza. It is abundantly clear that making prostitution illegal has not significantly reduced it.

And again, the 'sex slave' problem varies by country. As I mentioned, the UK isn't experiencing that. The women who were brought in wanted to keep being prostitutes because of the money. Yet in the Netherlands, there's more coercion.

This is not a black and white issue on either side. Pretending that it is just means we ignore the actual problems so that we can validate our beliefs.

[seabeyond]

77. i am talking the places it is legalized. and lack of women in the countries willing to prostitute

themselves, ergo, they have to ship them in thru criminal means.

[jeff47]

85. My point is the means are not necessarily criminal

There are women who have decided that leaving their poverty-stricken country and prostituting themselves is their least-bad option. From what little I can gather from the media, this is why that sweep in the UK didn't find a lot of trafficked women. As for why they're brought to another country, well people from poor countries work cheap. Whether it's on their backs or in a factory.

I fully admit that this scenario is nearly a "Sophie's Choice" level of decision where there is no good option. But the women in that situation have gone into this career with their eyes open.

And if prostitution is legalized, why exactly should the Johns be arrested? If the crime is trafficking, then the traffickers need to be arrested for kidnapping. We should attack the actual problem (and crime). Because arresting the Johns won't stop trafficking, just like it doesn't stop it in countries were prostitution is illegal.

There are solutions, such as some sort of licensing scheme for prostitutes which could be used to bring them in one-on-one contact with the authorities on a regular basis where they could ask for help. AFAIK, Nevada's brothels don't have a big trafficking problem, which may be partially due to the licensing system there. But I suspect such a scheme would have the same problems as having prostitution illegal where the traffickers would just not get licenses.

[MattBaggins]

70. "Police prvide security"? "Most done in hotels"?

Quite an imaginary world you live in.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[jeff47]

73. You are welcome to show your statistics that refute my point.

I'll wait while you come up with some.

[MattBaggins]

75. So I have to come up with statistics to counter your made up statements?

[jeff47]

86. Considering you have no data

how do you know who's numbers are made up?

A quick google search finds:
http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/streetwalkers

The National Task Force on Prostitution estimates that, of the entire female prostitute community in America, only five to twenty percent are street walkers

http://www.answers.com/topic/prostitution

New York City authorities estimate that one-third of street prostitutes carry the HIV virus, which causes AIDS. Streetwalkers comprise only 10 to 20 percent of all prostitutes, but account for 90 percent of arrests

Why walk the streets when you can use the Internet?
http://www.toddkendall.net/Pros20_Final.pdf

[rfranklin]

16. If we could put an national "emissions tax" on the act...

We might be able to erase the deficit.

[Kalyke]

18. You think they should legalize subjugation?

Most prostitutes don't do it because they like it - they do it because they are drug addicts who need help - not sex, or they have children to feed and their deadbeat ex won't pay child support and they can't find a decent job.

It really subjugates a lot of women and depresses their self-esteem to the point many can never get out of this lifestyle.

I say they keep it illegal and get these women some emotional and financial help.

[jeff47]

47. Are they adults or not?

You speak of prostitutes as if they have no agency. They're just abused women with low self-esteem that keep making the 'wrong' choice. If only we force them to make the 'right' choice, it will all be better.

If that is not your meaning, I apologize. But it appears you don't think prostitutes are capable of making their own decisions.

And how does keeping it illegal help "get these women some emotional and financial help"? By being illegal, you're driving the women away from society's support structures.

[girl gone mad]

35. Maybe we can legalize below minimum wage work..

for consenting adults, too.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that would agree to this, as well as to working in unsafe factories or getting no overtime or breaks.

[ChazII]

5. K&R

Finally, more and more groups are taking steps to solve this horrible problem. Sorry, I am a bit biased as an acquaintance of mine has had her daughter kidnapped twice and has been through this nightmare.

another link with breakdown bu continents.

http://www.gvnet.com/childprostitution/USA.htm

Several churches in my area give gift cards to the vice officers and in turn they give the cards to the prostitutes. This way they have a way of purchasing food since the pimps take all of the girls/boys cash.

[whathehell]

80. OMG....I just read some of that link.

I don't want to sound naive, but isn't this trafficking thing relatively "new in the States, at least?

I'm just hearing about it, last couple of years...I KNOW it's been going on in Asia and in Eastern European countries,
for awhile, since the break up of the soviet union, at least....Not sure about Thailand, Cambodia, etc.

As to your neighbor's daughter...She was kidnapped TWICE?...How did that awfulness happen, if I might ask.
...Can you tell me whether or not the mofos were at least arrested and imprisoned?

Thanks.

[whathehell]

6. Please, everyone sign the petition!

"Children for sale" at the Super Bowl.

What kind of monsters are these?...a hideous OUTRAGE!:grr:

[ChazII]

17. The kind of monster that should be

tarred and feathered. However, as I stated in another post, I am too close to this issue to see clearly. This is one issue where my emotions over take my common sense.

[whathehell]

22. I understand.....

And any mofo that is involved in this should have his name on a billboard and then be put away for a

minimum 20 years, if not Life.

[ChazII]

26. Thank you for understanding.

This kidnapping and not knowing where there daughter was or even if she was alive for 4 months completely tore the family a part.

[whathehell]

27. Of course...

I hope with all my heart that your daughter came home safe...

I'm so sorry that you and your family had to endure this horrifying situation.

[ChazII]

46. I am sorry for any confusion

but it was a friend whose daughter was kidnapped. The family is undergoing counseling one-on-one and as a family group. I appreciate your caring.

[whathehell]

52. No problem, ChazII....

Thanks for your appreciation!

[felix_numinous]

34. WTF

I must have been living in a cave, never heard of this. Thank you for the petition link.

[rufus dog]

38. Just follow Rush around for the week

should be able to make a couple of arrests with little effort.

[GoneOffShore]

45. So, are there any facts and figures about this?

The Dallas News Blog cites none.

One would think that a story like this would have been on every major network before the last Super Bowl or any prior Super Bowl.

Not trying to discount the fact of trafficking but would like a few actual instances than just the assertion of some politician in Texas (because we've heard those before and know where that can lead).

[ChazII]

50. Link to facts

and more information at response #21.

The link I had added is not working but the one at #21 is working.

[handmade34]

67. see#8 also

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Pimps-and-Prostitutes-Expected-with-Super-Bowl-XLV-110948159.html

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/02/05/Super-Bowl-prompts-sex-worker-concerns/UPI-50831265398941/

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/02/04/83780/volunteers-fight-dark-side-of.html

[hobbit709]

48. Where was Abbott during the abuse at TYC?

[whathehell]

64. Why all the posts about "consenting adults" on a thread about TRAFFICKING?

especially the trafficking of CHILDREN?


Trafficking = NO consent

Children = NO consent.

:eyes:


Maybe you should start your own post about "legalizing prostitution between consenting adults"

We're talking about SOMETHING ELSE here.

[jeff47]

74. Because it's a discussion board

And discussions go where they may. There's a rather large branch that went off into prostitution in general. That happens when people talk - they don't always stay on topic.

[whathehell]

78. Umm..

Judging by your post count, dear, I'd say I've been here a lot longer than you, so you can bag the snark.


The supposedly "large branch" that went off into prostitution was started by a male and is now comprised of virtually all men.

I'd bet they are far more "comfortable" discussing scenarios that are supposedly about "consenting adults" than
they are about those ugly situations of Trafficking, of both adults and children. No big surprise there.

Unfortunately for you, it's not getting much buzz...Maybe because those of us concerned with the OP, just don't care to see the thread hijacked.

My advice?...Start your own thread on the legality of prostitution -- keeping in mind, that, other considerations aside, the trafficking of young women makes it a lot HARDER to judge the "consensuality" of it all*.


*Sex trafficking is the fastest growing criminal enterprise in the world, on par with illegal weaponry, second only to drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafficking_in_human_beings

Edited to add link

[tammywammy]

81. Actually you shouldn't base anything on post count

You've both been here approximately the same time.

jeff47 joined Jun 24th 2008

You joined Jun 21 2008

[whathehell]

82. Actually....

I'll keep my own counsel on that.

Buh Bye:hi:

[jeff47]

83. It's also crucially important to realize

That this is not the only discussion board on the Internet.

[jeff47]

84. Here's the post that started the branch:

I support legal prostitution 100% this is different

Wow, that's a big pile of misogyny right there! And clearly the poster just wants to sweep trafficking and child prostitution under the rug...what with how he explicitly said it was not what he supported.

"Unfortunately for you, it's not getting much buzz"

Some of us like to use a discussion board for, shockingly enough, discussion. Not to pimp our causes (Look! A pun!!). As such we don't have some threshold of 'success' - we're here for the trip, not the destination.

"My advice?...Start your own thread on the legality of prostitution"

Been done many, many times. It always devolves into two camps:
Camp 1: All prostitutes are abused, under-aged, trafficked women on the street corner who are constantly being beaten by their pimp until either their pimp or their drug addiction kills them.

Camp 2: Women should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to be prostitutes. Trafficking is covered by other statutes, such as kidnapping, which already contain far greater penalties than prostitution/pimping. And pushing prostitution underground by keeping it illegal makes it harder for prostitutes to seek help when/if they want it.

Fact is it's complicated. Legalization is not a panacea, and keeping it illegal has its own set of problems. But that will almost never be discussed in a prostitution thread. Both sides are so committed to their world view that that neither will admit the other has a point. So it's not worth the database space to create such a thread.

"-- keeping in mind, that, other considerations aside, the trafficking of young women makes it a lot HARDER to judge the "consensuality" of it all*."

Because keeping prostitution illegal has proven so effective at stopping trafficking...as the OP demonstrates.

[Odin2005]

66. There are no words!

:grr:

[Kablooie]

69. Ah yes. American entrepreneurial spirit at work.