When Iraq descends into total chaos and the RW starts complaining

[ChandlerJr]

President Obama can rightly claim that he was merely living up to the U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement negotiated and signed by the previous administration.

The U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: "Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq") is a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States. It establishes that U.S. combat forces will withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011, subject to possible further negotiations which could delay withdrawal and a referendum scheduled for mid-2009 in Iraq which may require U.S. forces to completely leave by the middle of 2010. The pact requires criminal charges for holding prisoners over 24 hours, and requires a warrant for searches of homes and buildings that are not related to combat. U.S. contractors working for U.S. forces will be subject to Iraqi criminal law, while contractors working for the State Department and other U.S. agencies may retain their immunity. If U.S. forces commit still undecided "major premeditated felonies" while off-duty and off-base, they will be subject to the still undecided procedures laid out by a joint U.S.-Iraq committee if the U.S. certifies the forces were off-duty.(snip)

U.S. President George W. Bush hailed the passing of the agreement between the two countries. "The Security Agreement addresses our presence, activities, and withdrawal from Iraq", Bush said. He continued that "two years ago, this day seemed unlikely - but the success of the surge and the courage of the Iraqi people set the conditions for these two agreements to be negotiated and approved by the Iraqi parliament."(snip)

On December 14, 2008, U.S. President George W. Bush signed the security pact with Iraq. In his fourth and final trip to Iraq, the president appeared with Iraq's prime minister and said more work is to be done. During the press conference discussing the signing of the pact with Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in his palace in the heavily fortified Green Zone, President Bush dodged two shoes thrown at him from the audience.

Take that you neo-con bastards
This is a Bush clusterfuck
From start to finish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement

[SpiralHawk]

1. "Smirk." - xCommander AWOL Bush & Clusterf*ck Cronies (R)

[shraby]

2. It's entirely possible that Iraq doesn't descend into chaos.

If they do, that is their baby to clean up..not ours.

[ChandlerJr]

3. If it doesn't Obama can take credit

if it does He can lay blame.

Win win

[robdogbucky]

12. What a biased view of the future RE: descent into chaos.

The presumption that it will happen seems to be a uniquely western notion.

Gonna wash our hands, eh Pontious Pilate USA?


"...History of War

Robin Wright, at the U.S. Institute of Peace, cautioned against the idea that withdrawal from Iraq will allow Iran to extend its influence. While both are both predominantly Shiite Muslim nations, they fought the Middle East’s deadliest war from 1980 to 1988, leaving 123,000 dead. They are rivals over religious leadership, identity, politics and territory, said.

“Yes, the Shiites have a natural link,” Wright said in a telephone interview. “But the nationalism and history also will be important in defining what happens to Iraq after the United States leaves.”

Newton concurred. “The Shias of Iraq, having waited so long to come to power, don’t want to hand it over to Iran,” he said.

Still, the withdrawal may intensify the rivalry between Iran and Saudi Arabia, said Milani. The Saudis blame Iran for fomenting unrest in majority-Shiite Bahrain and in Saudi Arabia’s Eastern Province..."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-21/will-american-troops-leave-iraq-better-off-.html

[jwirr]

17. And if they do it would have happened regardless of how or when

we left. We cannot just stay there forever because they might fight with each other.

[NOLALady]

4. It descended pretty far into chaos

when we started our Shock and Awe campaign.

As we slip into chaos, I wonder who will come to our rescue.

[catabryna]

5. I think he thought this all through when he made the decision he did. nt

[Chih]

6. "This is a Bush cluster%u(# From start to finish."

Actually, the Iraqi cluster%u(# was initiated by the UK early in the last century. The effects of US intervention will not be known for years...decades...even centuries.

The lessons of history are rarely learned and the re-emergence of wars and colonialism in the ME demonstrates more than ever before the idiocy and recklessness of imperialism and militarism.

[dkf]

7. How's about when Libya starts down that road?

At least we have an out with Iraq. Who knows what our obligations are with Libya.

[FarCenter]

11. Iraq has a civil war to finish; Libya has mostly finished theirs

[dkf]

14. No here is where they start figuring out who controls things.

It's perfectly fine to stand back and let the other guy being down the bogeyman. But when it comes to getting yours,then what do you do?

[sylvi]

8. "subject to possible further negotiations which could delay withdrawal"

Wasn't the U.S. in fact negotiating to keep bases open there past the withdrawal deadline, but al-Maliki nixed the proposal?

[hughee99]

9. So * deserves much of the credit for this if it goes well then? n/t

[Old and In the Way]

10. A shame we didn't have posting tags for search purposes

A "run-up to Iraqi war" tag would be useful for revisiting what many posters here were saying back 9 years ago. Of course, we understood that the entire case to invade Iraq was a premeditated lie...but we also knew that the US military couldn't "win" ...because there was no objective other than the liberation of Iraq's oil (see Dick Cheney's secret energy meetings planning the hostile takeover of Iraqi national Oil - the #2 oil reserves in the world). That objective was bound to unite Iraqi's against the US military presence, resulting in a long, costly, and unproductive occupation with a steady loss of US lives and our international reputation. And we also understood the dynamics and real politic of Iraq...an artificially created country that was an amalgam of 3 competing societies - Sunni, Shia, and Kurd. We knew Saddam was a blood thirsty dictator that was ruthless in eliminating any political opposition. But that did allow Iraq to develop a secular society that was relatively progressive when compared to other ME countries, particularly on the role of women, healthcare, and using their national asset (oil) to better all of society (not to say that Hussein didn't take a huge cut of that revenue to create a House of Saud-like lifestyle).

So we took out the lynch pin that kept Iraq stable. Can Iraq really evolve into a democratic society? Maybe, but the exit of US troops now could as easily lead to a devolution - the fracturing of the state into regional buffer proxies for Iran, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia. The lesson we should learn is we can't create a democracy from the top down...it can only be created from the bottom up by the will of the people. We can support these movements, but we can't dictate the results. The effects of 2 US wars in the past 30 years have made Iraq a broken country , potentially killing Iraq as a viable, moderately secular state to counterbalance radical Islamic theocracies in the region. I suspect, had we shown restraint and not started a war for private profit, the Arab Spring movement would have eventually brought Hussein down from the inside, perhaps with a well placed drone from a real UN coalition warplane. We'd have saved a trillion+ dollars, 6000 American lives, and countless innocent Iraqi lives in the process.

[robdogbucky]

13. How about public opinon and political pressure? n/t

Oops, response to wrong post, sorry.

This was meant to respond to possibly giving credit to * in the post above.

You get my drift.

I also feel this misadventure has become economically unviable, as so many have predicted the cynical outcome of this cynical war on behalf of the "War on Terrorism."

Let the Arab Spring continue, through Iraq and Afghanistan and Iran too!

[bbinacan]

15. Interesting article n/t

[onethatcares]

16. can we finally listen to the Dixie Chix again?

I say that in jest, but the hate that spilled out here when it came to choosing sides of war or peace have changed our country forever.

It's been a long 9 years, at times it seems like a millenium.

The Iraqi path is exactly what the anti war protestors predicted would happen if the U. S. of A. were to invade and overthrow.

Now it's time to work and hope for the best, but knowing our tendencies to meddle, it's gonna be a rough road.

I'm still glad the troops are leaving, I just wish they could come home sooner.