I seriously think I may advocate my son joining the Military

[FirstLight]

He was NJROTC for his whole High School careeer, and I was so dead set against him doing it. On days he said the recruiter was coming to school I would remind him "don't sign anything!...they could trick you..."

Now he has been out of HS since June, had one summer job and blew off extending it because he 'wanted time off' He is officially addicted to World of Warcraft and didn't even want to register for classes at the junior college this quarter.(I dragged him to campus...)
He is not motivated and has no sense of self worth, though he used to feel so good when he would wear his uniform, he even 'Lettered' in Rifle Team, and was very proud to be the second in command of his HS unit.

Since I can't bring myself to just kick out him onto the street, maybe I will start advocating other options, enlistment options.
The unemployment rate in our rural town is double the national avg, especially for a kid with no real customer service experience and no other experience except on summer job...
He could enter the Navy at a higher enlistment rate because of his rotc work... and he has already taken the asvab...
Maybe he could choose a career path in the military that would keep him out of harm's way?
Maybe he could choose a branch that is less inclined to participate in battle these days?

any military folks or other peaceniks like me who care to offer advice?

[earth mom]

1. Sorry, but it sounds like you are looking for a quick fix that won't fix anything at all. nt

[Brickbat]

2. If he's not in college or motivating himself, I would have a long talk about the military if it

sounds like it was something he enjoyed, and then I would push him out of the house.

That's very, very easy for me to say, however. At some point you're going to have to stop dragging his ass to campus and holding his hand.

[Statistical]

3. I will say 100% the military helped me.

I was a lot like your son except I went to college. I was (am?) very bright but I didn't have the drive to apply myself. I had no idea what I wanted to do in college. I ended up dropping out, enlisting and served 4 years active.

The military is a tough life but it does teach you responsibility, discipline, motivation, teamwork, etc. I honestly believe that my military experiences (4 years active, 6 in the guard) have made me successful in the private sector. I used the GI BILL to finish school (Summa Cum Laude graduate). The security clearance opened doors in the IT field. The soft skills have made me more valuable to employers.

So even if one doesn't stay in the military it can be useful.

[Earth_First]

8. +1

I have the same bio.

[pintobean]

11. +1

[NuclearDem]

14. I agree

But if you can, encourage him to find a job that doesn't take him to the frontlines. I had a relatively front-line job and Afghanistan screwed me up.

I will say this though: the military doesn't necessarily break you of WoW. I've known too many people in every service going through DLI that were addicted to WoW.

[uppityperson]

54. "encourage him to find a job that doesn't take him to the frontlines." Indeed

A big problem is not just being in danger, but what it can do to your psyche. PTSD and all that is not a simply or easy thing.

And indeed about WoW, plenty military who do WoW.

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. +100%

[WinkyDink]

31. Was there any war when you were in?

[pinboy3niner]

36. I got my little brother in during wartime

It did wonders for him--but it could also have gotten him maimed or killed. We were lucky.

He was facing jail. Because of that, the recruiters weren't even supposed to talk to him. But I was a newly-commissioned Army officer, and an Army recruiter did me a favor and put my brother through all the applicant testing. So, when he went to court, I was able to tell the judge he was ready to enter the Army. After calling the recruiter to confirm, the judge dismissed the charges and my brother went off to basic training.

My brother became an Army personnel clerk, and when I went to Vietnam I figured he'd be safe--siblings couldn't be involuntarily assigned to a combat zone at the same time. Then he volunteered for VN, and we wound up serving at the same time in the same Army division in I Corps. When I was wounded, they even handed him a telegram--in Vietnam--and brought him to the hospital to see me the very same day.

My brother's base camp was mortared and rocketed, and he knew friends who were killed and wounded. But he was lucky. He did his time, got out, went to college, and had a very successful career as a civilian Air Force employee, one of the top four people in the country in his field. For him, the military really did do wonders.

At the same time, I know that if anything had happened to my little brother in VN, I would have been devastated by an overwhelming sense of guilt, on top of my loss and grief.

[WinkyDink]

81. My point exactly.

[Statistical]

42. Iraq and Afghanistan. Ironically neither when I was active duty, both in the reserves.

Also a major reason for leaving military after 10 years rather than retire in 20.

[FirstLight]

34. ...discipline...

exactly...he really enjoyed his ROTC alot, the comraderie, etc... I want to remind him of that feeling good about himself because he was part of something greater...and he knows it was good for him as well

[Statistical]

45. A couple of tips.

1) Steer him away from the Army and Marines. I did my "time" in the Army. You are a trigger puller. Period. Doesn't matter what MOS you get. When I was Active Duty I was a Cavalry Scout, front lines, "tip of the spear" all that HOOOAH stuff. When I got out and went into the guard I told my wife hey I will get a job in the back lines. I joined a field artillery unit, became a fire direction specalist (essentially using a computer to turn fire missions into fire orders). Long story short not much need for heavy artillery in Iraq. When we got orders they made up grunts and we went as trigger pullers. Keep him out of the Army.

2) If he has the aptitude steer him towards the most technical job possible in the Navy. I would pick Navy or Coast Guard over even Airforce right now. Airforce operates some bases in both combat zones. No matter what MOS (job) he picks the Airforce will have at least some need for it in the Stan. Have him get a job that uses his brain. Electronics, radars, fire control systems, etc. Remember most technical job possible. If he has very good scores on the ASVAB and he is offered a slot in the nuke program he should take it (less than 1% are). It is a license to write your own check (well as least the biggest checks in the military). Re-enlistment bounuses can be up to $50K for 4 year extension.

3) If it isn't in writing it didn't happen. I got everything I was promised when I enlisted. Not every guy did. No matter what a recruiter says IF IT ISN'T IN HIS ENLISTMENT CONTRACT IT NEVER HAPPENED. If recruiter says he will go in as an E-3 and his contract doesn't say that. Guess what he is going in as an E-1. If recruiter says he is getting college fund (supplemental money beyond GI-BILL) and his contract doesn't say so he isn't getting a fraggin nickel beyond the GI-BILL. If recruiter says he gets duty station of choice (close to home) and his contract doesn't say so he goes where the Navy needs him? If recruiter says they will make him a computer specialist and his contract doesn't say so he is going to be made what the Navy needs.

I know I was stupidly repetitive but SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many guys get burned this way. If his contract doesn't say it then it is never going to happen. Period. Stress that to him a couple hundred times before he signs anything. Once he signs and raises his hand for the oat he belongs to uncle sam and they aren't going to give him a shiny nickel beyond what his contract requires.

4) Steer him towards a job which requires a security clearance. You can't get one on your own. They are worth their weight in gold. If your son and job seeker John Doe have same skills and are applying to a job that requires a clearance he will get it. They won't even consider the other guy. Clearances are so expensive to obtain many companies will take a marginally cleared guy over a genius with no clearance any day. Maybe it isn't fair but I am just telling you how the game is really played.

5) They will give him an option to opt out of the GI-BILL. Tell him if he does that you will disown him. It is the single most valuable thing you can get from the military. Once you opt out, it is for life. You can never get it back.

[Neurotica]

92. What great information -- thank you

I've saved your post for future reference (have 2 boys - teen and pre-teen). They don't currently have the inclination to go into the military, but you never know.

[pipoman]

104. I pretty much agree with everything here

except that, at least the Marines, has changed some in recent years. There seems to be more tech MOS which can't get deployed. I took 10 young marines from staff sgt to lance out to dinner. All are in finance mos and all were bitching that they can't get deployed or even on a meu. They said information mos can't get deployed either.

[rko_24550]

85. +10000

[denbot]

4. My choice at his age was college, military or out to sink or swim.

Of course I got a jobbie-job, moved in with some buddies and partied my ass off. After a year I joined the military (Navy). I am so grateful for my V.A. benefits, which saved my ass at a time I could not afford my old Blue Shield HMO. Our 17y.o. son will have the choice of college, military, or getting a job and paying rent (my wife is such a softy).

[Obamanaut]

5. I recommend against it, because of these few words in your post "He is not

motivated and has no sense of self worth."

It is possible that someone else's life may depend on him some day, and with that glowing endorsement, it bodes ill.

Oh, and put a lock on the refrigerator.

[PavePusher]

99. Actually, the military is often a very good choice for peeople like this.

If they can't teach you motivation and how to find a sense of self-worth, very few other choices can.

[Taverner]

6. Read "Dispatches" and then think about it.

I'm reading that right now

[JonLP24]

7. Leave it up to him to join or not

Sending an unmotivated person to the military could set them up to get in trouble a lot. You pretty much have to buy the BS to be willing to put up with it and there is a lot of BS lower enlisted have to put up with.

I'm not sure the military will help with a WoW addiction. I knew many that developed a WoW addiction in the military. It was all some soldiers did during down time during my deployment.

[tabatha]

9. Peace Corps?

[denbot]

21. You need an undergraduate degree to join the peace corps.

My wife served in the peace corps in africa.

[earthside]

26. Americorps?

Americorps

[Hippo_Tron]

103. Also it's pretty competitive these days, it really helps to have skills they want

My friend had close to a 4.0 GPA at a highly ranked university and the peace corps didn't accept her. They said they were looking for nurses and engineers.

[msongs]

10. war is America's most popular family value, so why not? Its a growth business nt

[Zoeisright]

12. Have you thought about having him evaluated for depression?

If all he wants to do is sit in front of the computer, has to sense of self-worth, and doesn't want to register for classes, it sounds like there's something wrong. Before you advocate something so drastic, get him check out.

[JonLP24]

13. +1000

[superduperfarleft]

17. Good point. If that's the case, the LAST thing he needs is the military. n/t

[uppityperson]

56. I agree. See if this could be a problem.

[rucky]

100. +1

[onethatcares]

15. as a peacenik that is also father to a MSGT

I'd have to say there are no career paths in the military that will keep one out of harms way. Can he enlist in the Air Force? How old is he?

Jeeez, I'm at a loss here. My son has 6 years to go to retirement at 42 and I respect him for following through on his plan.

[superduperfarleft]

16. You're more willing to have him killed in a desert somewhere as opposed

to putting your foot down, telling him to start acting like a grown-up, and kick his ass out if he doesn't?

Seriously, there have got to be better options for a kid that really only needs to grow up and get his shit together.

[Critters2]

41. Or find the right anti-depressant. nt

[seabeyond]

19. i have a nephew i would put in military in a heart beat. you betcha.

i dont know your son, or his situation, or personality. but for this nephew, could be his saving grace.

[Fumesucker]

20. No matter what "guarantees" the recruiter gives your son..

He's going to do what the military wants him to do, if the job they think he is most suited for is trigger pulling grunt then a trigger puller he will be.

Just keep in mind that a lot of the non-combat type jobs that used to be done by actual military personnel are now done by private contractors.

[raouldukelives]

22. As long as he fully supports the invasions

I would say join up and help them.

[NNN0LHI]

23. Suppose you knew of a mother in an impoverished Arab country with an out of work son like yourself

And all that mothers son seemed interested in was going off to kill Americans.

What kind of advice would you give to that mother?

Don

[PassingFair]

102. Why do you hate America?

:sarcasm:

Why must you look at the BIG PICTURE?

:sarcasm:

Oh, and +1 for your post.

:hi:

[tinymontgomery]

24. His choice

but here are the things he should think about. Pick a job he can use when he gets out. Whether it is 4 years or 22 years later and one he believes he will in joy. That takes research and not from a recruiter. If they do not want to work with him he must be able to walk away, like buying a car. I like Navy (23 years) or Air Force, I'm not the ground pounder type. Also both Navy and Air Force are moving very high tech. With the right mentor you can do very well. I had great Master Chiefs that pushed me and wonderful Officers that offered me lots of opportunities to make something of myself.

If he goes in it will be as a E-3 with the 3 years or more of his NJROTC experience, except for the Marines (E-2). That is about $300.00 more a month then the E-1 and possible quicker advancement. I will say this, the Navy is getting tough, PRT standards are tight, has to earn his Enlisted Surface Warfare pin in 30 months of reporting to his operational command, and all his qualifications. I have former students that are in all the services now and 99% are happy. I wanted them all to go to college, they had other visions for themselves.

The service is great for some, not for others. I would talk with those that liked it and those that didn't and form an opinion from those conversations. It is a choice only that person can make and then they have to fulfill the commitment. It is not the draft so go in with eyes wide open.

Good luck what ever he decides.

[bighart]

25. My son joined last summer and says it is the best decision he ever made.

He did not need my approval or permission as he is in his mid 20's. He dropped out of college after 2 years and was doing factory work.

[j420norcal]

27. If your son does not want to enlist in the military

How about an apprenticeship in a trade? If he joins the electrician's or plumber's unions, he could make a pretty decent living after a few years.

[elocs]

28. I went through this with my godson who will be 22 next month.

In high school he had no motivation and simply stopped going when he should. He couldn't get his butt out of bed and I told him when he was a sophomore that he couldn't even get a job at McDonalds because they would expect him to go to work and be there on time.

By his junior year he was so far behind that it was clear that he would never graduate with his class. In January of his junior year he left high school to attend the Lincoln Challenge Academy in Illinois that is run by the National Guard and is for troubled youth. He flourished under that structure and discipline because he was a kid who was not good at making decisions on his own and usually chose poorly.

He graduated from Lincoln Challenge in June and pasted his GED before his class had even started their senior year. He was allowed by law to do this because it was a state run program.

So it was no big surprise to me that summer when he told me that he had decided to enlist. I explained to him what the clear possibilities were given that he had no skills and little education, that he was likely to wind up in either Iraq or Afghanistan. He was determined and even though his mother did not want to sign for him because he was only 17 he said he would enlist in 6 months when he turned 18. She respected his wishes and that August he was in the Army.

The next summer he was off to Afghanistan after having been stationed at Fort Hood. He was stationed in the Korengal Valley, the same place where the documentary "Restrepo" was filmed. In fact, that group left a month or two after his outfit got there. One of the first things he had to do there was be part of a funeral detail for 5 soldiers who were killed when their forward operating base was nearly overrun by the Taliban.

He made it through Afghanistan although he did lose a couple of buddies there. The August that he left he reenlisted for another 6 years. Currently he is stationed in Germany, but I would not be surprised if he serves another tour of duty in Afghanistan since he is a veteran of that war.

The long and short of it is that it was his decision to enlist and for him it personally was a good decision because he really has blossomed in the Army. He knew what the possibilities would be when he enlisted because I didn't want him claiming that nobody told him it would be that way. The military is not for everybody, but for some it is a good fit and although I might not agree I would not fault any young adult who makes enlisting a reasoned choice.

[hlthe2b]

29. I'm reminded of my eldest male cousin... who must have appeared similarly

to my Grandfather-- then a member of the small rural farming community's Vietnam era draft board. Apparently, he thought the military would be just the discipline he needed and intentionally bumped up his number. No, there is (fortunately) not a bad ending to this story. He served most of his time overseas but outside the active front. But, it does explain why he never looked upon my Grandfather as the kindly, cuddly old farmer, as I and the other much younger cousins did.

I don't know if my Grandfather was right. Maybe in a way he was. He also came from a time when all men were expected to serve--he in WWI and all my uncles in WWII. But, I will quietly and non-judgmentally point out that men of that era would also have been more prepared had their decision ended more tragically.

I'm not against serving in the military and it might be just the right thing for your son. But, realize, he may not have the choice to remain in a "safer" area. I lost a colleague in the Kenya embassy bombings. When she, her husband and three adopted children went to that assignment, it was looked upon as one of the more safe opportunities. So, one never knows.

[WinkyDink]

30. "keep him out of harm's way?" It doesn't work that way.

[mike_c]

32. my partner's youngest son is awaiting deployment in Afghanistan....

My advice: don't encourage yours to join the military.

We're having a real hard time with this. Neither she nor I can support what he's doing or what he is going to be called on to do while occupying someone else's homeland in a war of aggression.

I've said many times here that we regard the wars against Iraq and Afghanistan as crimes against humanity. It is personal for us, too, because her son is one of the folks perpetrating those crimes. Imagine how hard it is to be supportive if him as an individual while utterly despising what he's doing? We manage, of course, but it's taking a hard toll on everyone-- and that's assuming he gets out alive and safe. We aren't even beginning to deal with the anger and grief we'll have to face if something happens to him.

Don't throw your kids into the maw of the Military Industrial Complex. There is nothing honorable about what they do in today's world.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SmileyRose]

33. What does HE want?

I know it sounds harsh but from the little teeny bit you've told us, it sounds like you trashed his dreams so he just gave up.

Maybe it's time to apologize to him for pushing your values on him when it was clear he wanted a military life. Tell him you love him and don't want him killed and don't want him to live with having to kill someone else - but in the end what he wants with his own life, and what makes HIM happy is what matters to you.

At least that's what it sounds like you are saying.............

[FirstLight]

38. ouch, but i guess the short version doesn;t tell you all of it

He always knew i was a peacenik and worried about the ROTC thing, but he also knoew how proud I was of him and I couldn;t help but tell him how sharp he looked in his dress blues and we'd go watch him march in parades, etc...i wanted his younger brother & sister to look up to him too.
He really seemed to have more of a sense of self accomplishment when he was in HS and ROTC...I think graduating really hurt him. It wan;t happy because he lost his friends, they either went away to college or were still in high school so he is at a loss about how to move on.

I know I am not perfect, and I havelooked at many options to get him to shift gears and start to take some responsibility for his life.
His Girlfriend is still in HS & ROTC as well... she wants to be a lawyer, and may even consider national guard or something to get the school she needs. If they both went in together, it could be good for them both.
It would be better than them 'playing house' together and ending up pregnant before they are 20, living with her mom (who has some questionable background issues, she would totally let him move in over there so she could ditch her own daughter and go party...) Married officers have some benefits together, they could set themselves up for a pretty good life.

As much as I hate the MIC and don't condone the wars, I had to face a long time ago that his personality really flourished in that environment, so i just have to let go of those feelings. It is HIS choice and purpose. so I'm going to at least put the option back on the table and see if he bites...

[WildEyedLiberal]

88. +1

Many posters have suggested that he might be depressed. Well, I'd be depressed too if my parents told me that my dreams were sinister or stupid and discouraged me from doing what I really wanted to do with my life.

[mwrguy]

35. Great benefits to being a soldier!

Getting killed

Murdering others

Right-wing christian indoctrination

Homophobia

PTSD

Traumatic Brain Injury

Getting raped by your fellow soldiers

Losing arms and legs

All the fancy medals you could ever want

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Print these out and look at them every day

[Texasgal]

39. My parents did that to my brother back in the mid-80's

He joined the joined the navy, stayed in eight years and traveled all over the world. He was also given education and benefits.

It worked quite well for him, his education in the military has allowed him to have a most excellent career in the high tech industry. Things are different now... I am not too sure my parents would do the same thing now.

[yawnmaster]

40. Have a number of relatives in the Navy and it would not be a bad choice...

especially with his ROTC training.
keeping a kid out of harm's way?
Only way I know is to keep them confined and that is only physical... the WOW addiction has done some harm to some, in my opinion, for example.
Our kids do have to choose their own way, some of them are more risky than others.
Give them your opinion, help them when you can.
It is important that he has a sense of self worth. Personally, if it is between WOW and the navy, I would choose the navy.

[Lurks Often]

43. Couple of thoughts

Keeping in mind that these are memories from 1992 when I joined:

1. His ASVAB scores will have a lot to do with what options he has. The higher his ASVAB's the better the chances of him getting into a specialty he wants.
2. As a general rule, aside from Navy Corpsman, SEALS and SEA BEES (if they are even being used), Navy enlisted rarely/never end up on the front lines carrying a rifle.
3. If his ASVAB's are so low that the Air Force or Navy don't want him, then it would seem probable that the Army or Marines would put him in a Combat Arms (Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Aviation), Combat Support (Military Police, Engineers, etc) or Combat Service Support (driving a truck, supply etc) unit, all likely to face at least some chance of being exposed to hostile fire.
4. Any recruiter is going to try and get him to sign up for a specialty that they are in need of, that is how it works and the recruiter's evaluations and chances for promotion are in part related to filling certain quotas related to need.
5. The National Guard or the Reserves are an option, however keep in mind that specialties available in the active military may not be available in the National Guard or the Reserves.
6. Get any promises by a recruiter in WRITING!!!
7. He has to WANT to join the military or else it isn't likely to work.

[mwrguy]

46. Seabees are being used extensively

in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

[southerncrone]

47. He is now an adult.

Even though you do not want him in the military (& I completely understand that as a mother), it seems that is what he wants. He did it in HS, even when you objected. He was GOOD at it, which boosted his self-worth. He obviously doesn't want to go to college.....you had to DRAG him there! He doesn't want a "job".....he "blew it off". He is ADDICTED to WOW. He likes conflict. Another reason he escalates the fight between the two of you.

He may want more male interaction & role models.....military offers that. Lots of boys today have been raised by single mothers & sorely need POSITIVE male role models & interaction. The military sure beats his wasting away in his bedroom while his thumbs fall off & his eyes pop out.

As parents the most difficult thing to accept when our kids reach "maturity", is they are not clones of US! Especially mothers are so use to making decisions for our children, that it becomes a "habit" for us to just continue in that mode....it's an un conscience reaction. He deserves to make his own choices about what he does with his life. (Even if it would not be something YOU would choose.) You know that we are here on this planet to LEARN LESSONS. There is no better teacher than difficult challenges. Take him to the recruiter. Tell him since he is so enamored w/WOW that he needs to see what that is REALLY like.

Do this with firm authority. Calmly give him a choice: 1) Go to counseling on Friday, OR 2) Go to the recruiter on Friday (or whatever day in the near future, but make sure you can get an appt. w/counselor on the specific day, or it will just be a hollow threat). FOLLOW THROUGH WITH IT. If parents don't follow through with their word/"threats (in kids' minds)", then kids feel their parents are weak & liars.....& truly, they are when they don't follow through. It leads to a lack of trust & lack of respect.

Ask yourself, honestly, do you secretly want him to stay & not leave you? Are you giving him conflicting messages about this? Let him go. Do NOT let him rot away in his room playing WOW 24/7. The military will help him become productive, at least on some level, & that will give him CONFIDENCE. WOW is not doing that.

I know you hold guilt about your prior relationships & their effects on your children. But, do not let him "guilt" you about that now. It is the past. Tell him it is time for him to experience his future & you are there to help with that. NO YELLING! Just firm statements. Do not let YOUR emotions take over. You must be the adult role model here. Your other kids deserve to have a more peaceful existence. Think of them, too.

I wish you the best with this very difficult parental decision. But, obviously, things are not good & haven't been for quite some time now; SOMETHING has to happen soon. It may be that you both NEED to not be around each other. Remember the old saying: "Distance makes the heart grow fonder."


Blessed be, both of you. :hug:

[Odin2005]

48. Get him mental help, don't let him be a trained killer for the PTB.

[w8liftinglady]

49. Do NOT let him join the Army...they are notorious for diverting troops into

combat zones...regardless of their training.

I'm with others who say Air Force or Coast guard.

my dad and partner were both AF lifers.
they both served a LONG time in a war zone,have the ptsd,but were physically safe.

if your son is determined to join the military,try to push them in this direction.

oh,yeah....my son is a three timer army grunt Iraq War vet.
go for the Air Force.

[kas125]

50. Before You Enlist -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcz7NFrPUg0

[Bigmack]

51. Air Farce.. Hooligan Navy....

The Coast Guard is a fine career. They do good stuff, for the most part.

The Air Force.... well, there is a lot of jobs that won't get him killed.

I do detect - in your description of the situation - that this kid will never be satisfied unless he gets into combat arms. He sounds like a Marine Corps recruiter's wet dream.

Be really careful that you don't rant too much about joining the Corps... that will push him into the Marines faster than anything.

You could mention that a couple of the guys on this board - me included - feel that we ended up pretty cynical about our service. Nobody likes to look like a chump.

[riderinthestorm]

52. 1 - 2 penis amputations/day right now.

The body armor that's provided protects your core but your extremities suffer tremendously if you take a lower body hit. Please make sure your son understands that if he suffers any major lower extremity injuries, he may be permanently sexually dysfunctional for life.

And of course, he has to kill, wound and otherwise harm the "enemy" population while he's at it. No getting around that fun fact - it is there. Children will be run over by tanks (tanks he drives), mothers will be gunned down at checkpoints (he mans).

Plus the emotional devastation for you, if he's actually killed in a war zone. Not TOO self-absorbed on his part is it? To consider how COMPLETELY your life may be transformed when/if he's killed. Because, he actually volunteered for that suicide mission... who the fuck cares what you think as his mother?

While it's quite possible my children may choose war as a profession, they will completely understand how I feel about it.

[Bigmack]

53. You know... after I read your post...

I want to erase/change the post I made above yours. Your last sentence reminded me of the short discussion I had with my son about the service.

I told him that he would never.... never go into the military. I told him I love him too much to have the shit done to him that was done to me. Asshole? Controlling jerk? You bet. But... his going in was simply not an option, and that I would do anything to stop him. He didn't want to go in, but he did want to know how much I loved him. I told him that I loved him enough to shoot off his big toe to keep him from going. He was suitably impressed. Would I have done it... I think so.

Oh... any "patriots" out there who think I'm awful and terrible and all like that....
Well, the nuns or my mother didn't make me like that, the Marine Corps did.

[a la izquierda]

87. Your post made me smile...

I don't have kids yet, but my husband comes from a military family. I said I would absolutely not ever let our future children join the military. I didn't care what I had to do. My husband disagrees, thinking the military does good things for lazy kids (his brother was a lazy pain in the ass, and joined the marines. he's now successful). My husband did not join the military, on account that he doesn't like being told what to do. He subsequently married me, and I almost applied to Annapolis and West Point as a high schooler.
My family doesn't have a military tradition. My grandpa served in WWII, but you'd never know it because he refuses to talk about it. He's 84 years old and I still have no clue what the man did those war years. My dad's dad served too, and he wouldn't talk about it either. He died young.

I don't know if I'd physically maim a future child, but I'll be goddamned if he/she planned to join up.

[DeadEyeDyck]

75. KnR

[mmonk]

55. I would suggest no. Not until the United States follows it's laws and treaties again.

I say this as a son of a veteran with two family members currently serving. Until the US follows the rule of law, troops are subject to resistance where in the past the enemy would surrender and if captured, will most likely suffer torture.

[Codeine]

57. Just kick his ass out onto the street

and let him figure his own shit out. I left home at 16 and because of that I learned to work hard and take care of myself without relying on others. Men who sit on their asses when they should be working are pathetic, and yes -- he's a man now.

[Taitertots]

59. Why don't you tell that to the people on DU who are out of work?

Good for you, you sure seem to think that makes you special. Too bad there are systemic blockages that make it so that won't work for everyone.

[Codeine]

67. The kid had a job and quit to have "time off."

Much different than being unable to find work, which is itself entirely different than sitting around playing WoW all day.

[Taitertots]

69. You are correct, I was under the impression that "time off" was over...

And the OP doesn't state that to be the case.

Time off or not, anyone who is trying to work but can't shouldn't be mocked. That doesn't seem to be the case with this young man.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. Fully agree.

It's one thing to help family. It's another to be exploited by them. Training your kids to exploit you is bad.

[Rex]

58. Well there is your problem right there! Calm down and think things out.

WoW, I've seen that game destroy marriages. If he is addicted, then it is no different from drugs or booze. Force his ass to work! Tell him if he wants to play games IN YOUR HOUSE, he has to work. Who is paying for monthly gaming bill for WoW - him or you!?

Don't make any drastic decisions that can have detrimental lifetime consequences down the road. You will be sorry. OTOH, I loved serving in the military and would do it all over again in a heartbeat.

Oh and P.S.

You have a very typical teenager on your hands, be proud its just games and not guns or bombs.

[Kip Humphrey]

60. You seem in a hurry

for your son to grow up. Not everyone matures by the same timetable. Sounds like your son (as it was with my son). Let him have his "time off" at home for however long he needs. Take the opportunity to really get to know one another. Find out where his interests, where his passions lay and encourage his developing along those lines (read books, take classes, etc.). Send him on a backpacking journey (to another country, across the US via buses, etc.). Give him the opportunities to experience "new" in his life and world. Stop judging him. Be his friend. Be his mentor. And be very, very patient.

my 2 cent.

[Codeine]

70. "Let him have his "time off" at home for however long he needs."

That's insanity. He's an adult. Time to get to work and support himself. What if he decides he NEVER wants to work?

[Hello_Kitty]

72. Apparently they're kids until 30 now. eom

[Codeine]

73. Most young adults are going to be helpless for their entire lives.

They seem utterly unable to cope with anything.

[Hello_Kitty]

76. "Moms write survival guide for coddled young adults"

Zarzour said it's partly Baby Boomer parents and partly the society we live in that's to blame.
She said it's not that teens or young adults are dumb. (Who helps older adults with their cellphones and computers?) It's just that they've been micro- managed.

A generation that's been been busy taking cello lessons and playing travel hockey never learned how to vacuum, clean a bathroom or cook.

``I am certain not one of my kids knows there is a vacuum bag to take out, ''said Zarzour.
It's also about priorities. She's more interested in letting her kids get their homework done so they can get into university than making them clean toilets.

``We're trucking them around, trying to enrich their lives and feeding them in the McDonald's drive thru. It takes time to teach them how to cook. It takes time to teach them how to properly clean the bedroom. None of us really have that time.'

http://www2.canada.com/facebook+aims+seize+google+crown/3969435/story.html?id=801230

It's inexcusable to raise a child to adulthood who can't clean a toilet or his or her bedroom. And I'm calling bullshit on the time-consuming excuse. It doesn't take long at all to teach those things. These parents just don't want to struggle with their kids.

[Codeine]

77. I was vacuuming as soon as I was big enough

to make my Mom's heavy-ass Kirby move across the carpet. When I was tall enough to reach the sink with a stool I was made to help with dishes, and cleaning my room was always my job. I raked leaves, scooped catboxes, mowed the lawn (when we had one -- trailer park dirt was more our style ;) ) and scrubbed toilets clean my whole childhood. Because of this I have a clean, tidy, livable home as an adult.

Not passing on BASIC LIVING SKILLS to children is abuse, pure and simple.

[Hello_Kitty]

78. Yep. They started us off with age appropriate chores when we were small.

By the time I was 11 my sister and I were responsible for all cleaning, laundry, and yard work. The adults paid the bills and gave us a small allowance and considered it a fair trade. Amazingly we managed to have time for homework and other activities.

[Kip Humphrey]

83. better send him off to war to kill & be killed, the good for nothing

who couldn't live up to expectations of maturity by timetable. But then, its the whole generation who are "coddled" and can't even clean toilets??? Sounds like bigotry IMO.

[Codeine]

84. I don't think he should join the military,

I think he should pull his head out of his ass and contribute to his family instead of sitting at his computer all day trying to get his druid to level 80 or find his orc an epic mount. If he doesn't he needs to be tossed out on his lazy ass until he figures out that effort is required to live as an adult. It's not a lack of maturity, it's sheer fucking laziness.

And yeah, I'll cop to being bigoted against young adults who sit on their asses all day doing nothing while expecting to be provided for by mommy and daddy. That's coddling, and it's pathetic. It creates weak, helpless, useless, lazy adults who can't cope with shit. That benefits neither the parent nor the child, and doesn't do much for society as a whole.

[Bonobo]

61. Maybe he will get straightened out but destroy other people's lives.

Would that affect your decision?

[Balbus]

62. Does he even want to join the military?

I would think if he wanted to, he'd have already done it.

[deutsey]

63. My stepfather was from a working class background

He joined the Navy and it was the best opportunity for him. He always told me the military is what you make it. If you go in without a sense of direction or purpose and just want to do your time, you won't get much out of it. If you go in with a goal and a sense of where you want to go, you'll get more out of it.

I was working class too, but I didn't join the military (although my stepfather encouraged me to consider the Air Force). I had it in my head I wanted to go to college, which I did and struggled financially every semester before I finally graduated.

I've wondered how my life may have been different had I enlisted. I got a good education but I really had a difficult up-hill struggle and I also had a lot of difficulty being a working class person in a largely middle class/upper class setting like college.

Still, it worked out, more or less.

I think the lesson here for me is life (not just the military) is what you make it. If you don't know where you're going, as George Harrison once sang, any road'll take you there.

[malaise]

64. Let him join the Peace Corps

You have no idea what exposure to war does to young men. My nephew will never get over Iraq and he left before Fallujah.

[Hello_Kitty]

79. Not that easy to get into the Peace Corps

The kid has a few community college courses under his belt. They want you to bring a little more to the table than that.

[badtoworse]

65. FWIW, You can learn valuable skills in the military

I have worked in the electric power business for almost 30 years and many of our plant operators and technicians are ex-Navy - we actively recruit them. Operating a powerplant is not unlike running a ship and the ex-Navy guys have skills we are looking for and the right mind set to run a plant. At our plants, a lead plant operator or a lead technician would earn about $70K per year after about 4 or 5 years. If he can get into the Navy, I would encourage him to do so and would encourage you to support his decision.

I'm sure similar opportunities exist in commercial aviation for ex-Air Force people.

[Bigmack]

82. You can also learn to operate automatic weapons...

and blow shit up. Not much translation into civilian jobs in the combat arms.

Depends on the service.

And let's not forget that "exigencies of the service" stuff. If the military has all the techs and operators they need, there's always room in the grunts.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

90. And, you can learn how to dig little holes in the ground to shit in.

And, salute complete nincompoops and call them sir.

[maxrandb]

66. I'm career Navy

started as an "E-nothing" and eventually earned a commission as a "Mustang".

It has been a great experience for me. This is not your mom or dads military. Great young people from varied backgrounds, and still some of us "old farts" around.

It's not a "panacea", but the military is truly a place where your are able to advance to your potential, regardless of race, color, creed, gender...and now...sexual orientation. It's not for everyone, but if you work hard, you can be successful.

In my 26 years, I have touched every continent in the world. I was hooked the first time I got underway. There is nothing quite like the experience of looking in every direction and seeing nothing but water. 12 days laters, I hopped off a liberty boat in Copenhagen, Denmark. I was 23, single, had a pocketfull of "monopoly money"..AND WAS IN DENMARK!!!!

It hasn't all been "fun", but then again, what job is?

[Taitertots]

68. Don't sell out your principals for a little money

Are you going to do some Parenting or just expect the military to do it for you?

You won't kick him out on the streets and that is probably a good thing. There are countless options between actively supporting wars of aggression and nothing. Maybe if he is going to live in your house you could have rules that include restricting WOW time, looking for work, community college, college....

[Nikia]

71. My little brother joined the Air Force and trained for air traffic control

Unfortunately he flunked out. It could have been a good career field. I think that he wasn't motivated enough.
I guess that my point is that there are good programs that could set him up for a good career, but he still has to be motivated. Some programs are easier, but those often more likely to involve front line work.

[ProudDad]

74. Please don't -- there's enough cannon fodder for the Empire

We need to slash the war budget...

And create a society worth living in here at home...

[barbiegeek]

86. VA has alot of benefits: Health care, tuition

Or send him to the French Foreign legion, in 3 years he'll be a citizen. Or have him do Americorp or Peace Corp

[Arugula Latte]

89. Give him more time -- his young slackerdom shouldn't cost him a limb, his sanity, or his life

It's likely he'll be sent to fight one of these worthless wars for American corporate interests -- is that really what you all want?

[NNN0LHI]

91. After thinking about this thread I really doubt the wars are going to end anytime soon

Just a bad feeling.

Don

[alarimer]

93. Not until we are done with these illegal, immoral wars.

I know people who have been deployed multiple times; they will never be the same. I guarantee that if he does join, he will be sent over to some middle eastern hellhole and will come back irrevocably changed, perhaps even suicidal.

Working at Starbucks has got to be better than that.

[JonLP24]

95. +1

I only went once and I'm not the same person.

[Major Hogwash]

94. For what country?

Let me know how it goes.

[firehorse]

96. He sounds depressed

12 step groups like ACOA might help him figure out what is at the root of his isolating and avoidance behavior and video game addiction.

Are there college classes that he could take so that if he enlists he could start off at a higher level?

[mzteris]

97. first - disconnect his access to WOW.

you have to break his addiction one way or another. Tell him the computer broke. Or you can't afford internet. Put a password protect on it. You have to play hardball here.

second - sit him down and tell him that he has "x" months to start contributing to the household financially in the amount of "X"... which translates into "GET A JOB".... , in addition to paying rent, room & board, tell him he will be expected to IMMEDIATELY contribute to the maintenance of the household in way of "work" - laundry, cleaning, lawn, something....

third - find out what he wants to DO with his life. His interests - besides games. Is there a community college? A trade school? An apprenticeship program nearby?

as long as he's sitting around in his underwear playing WOW and not having to "do" anything, he won't.

There are a million better options than "the military".

[purrFect]

98. I'm a Navy Vet, and I advise my kids against the military, however

the navy turned my life around.

If he did well on the test, he could go to air traffic controller school, which pays well in the civilian world.

another option would be to see if he could qualify for an officer program, where they pay for him to go to college first, and then he goes in as an officer upon graduation.

if a young person wanted to enlist, i would recommend the navy or the air force.

either way, best wishes for you and your son.

:hi:

[pipoman]

101. My son wanted to join

so badly he graduated from HS early to do so. He is a Marine. His high school grades were OK, nothing spectacular. He didn't know if or what he wanted to go to school to learn. I certainly had reservations. It has been great for him. He has excelled in that environment. He happens to be in an MOS which it is almost impossible to deploy. The discipline, physical fitness, and encouragement which comes from independence has, I believe, set the ground work for really great lifelong work ethic. He goes back and forth on re-enlisting and using his GI Bill to go to nursing school, then checking his options with the Navy medical.

It has been a tough road for dad. I miss him like crazy, yet we talk every day, either text or phone. Boot camp was excruciating for me...no contact with the child I raised for so many years..

My advice would be to not encourage or argue, only guide. My son wanted to go infantry. I kept my cool and just explained that he could get experience during his first 4 years which would help him get a job when he gets out. He qualified for dispersing/accounting. Not real exciting, but there is some excitement in being a land locked, small town kid with a steady job living in So.Cal.

Another option would be for you to get involved in W.O.W. and spend time understanding him on that level...my wife and her son play a lot. They can chat while he is at college, and she knows if he is playing when he should be in class.

[Book Lover]

105. Peacenik here with a solution you don't want to hear

If there's no work where your family lives, move. Or help your son to move where there's work, even if that means going overseas for a while. My father left Italy rather than be stuck in a place where there was no work and no future and a war looming. Your son might do well on that same path.

[InvisibleTouch]

106. As the daughter of an Air Force family...

...I'm of the mind that it's an honorable profession. It's good education, training, and discipline, and offers an opportunity where perhaps there are few others. Yes, it carries a risk, but so does every job in its way.