50 Ways to Leave Your Banker: What Happened When One Man Just Refused to Pay $80,000 in Credit Card

[Donnachaidh]

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/152938/50_ways_to_leave_your_banker:_what_happened_when_one_man_just_refused_to_pay_$80,000_in_credit_card_debt/?page=1

At last count, Steven Katz owed $80,000 on his six credit cards, and he has no intention of paying any of it off. In fact, he'd like to show you how to be like him—a "credit terrorist" in open revolt against the banking system.

Debtorboards.com ("Sue Your Creditor and Win!"), a five-year-old online forum where he's collected countless tricks and tactics for evading and repelling persistent creditors. He's written how-tos on shielding your assets from seizure, luring collection agencies into expensive lawsuits, and frustrating private investigators looking for debtors on the run. He's even infiltrated the bill collectors' forums, where he's been tagged a "credit jihadist" and his site's been called a "credit terrorist training camp," a label he embraces. "Debtorboards is one of the biggest and most successful temper tantrums ever," the 59-year-old Katz boasts. The site has more than 10,000 members—double what it had in 2009.

Katz wants the millions of Americans buried in debt to stop feeling guilty about not honoring their obligations. "People are brainwashed to think that paying a credit card is more important than paying for the necessities of life," he says. "Business and morality have nothing to do with each other, according to the bankers." One of Katz's mottos is "No one ever went to hell for not paying a debt."



He wasn't always an unrepentant debtor. When he first spoke to me from his tax and accounting business in a strip mall in Tucson, Arizona, he recalled how his first job in the '70s was tromping through Brooklyn making collections for a small loan company. He once threatened to take a woman's kids to an orphanage if she didn't pay her bills. He wasn't serious, but it worked.

More at the link --

[frazzled]

1. What a goniff

(goniff = crook, swindler, cheat).

It's one thing to stand in opposition to the means used by banks and debt collectors to recover debt. It's another thing to advocate walking away from $80,000 of credit card debt like it's your god-given right. The suggestion is you can just go out and charge anything you want, and the evil banks should not expect you to pay for it.

Sorry, that's grand larceny. And the rest of us pay for these scofflaws.

[Name removed]

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[justiceischeap]

7. The US government doesn't pay it's debts, why should we? nt

[MrDiaz]

41. it would be the perfect storm

to crash the entire economy. Hey everyone lets go get as many credit cards that we can spend all the money on whatever you please and refuse to pay any bills, lol yeah that is the dream economy right there buddy.

[Name removed]

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[MattBaggins]

13. He's right though

It's exactly how banks and business works.

"It's not personal... It's just business" is our country's true national motto. Big business has no qualms about declaring bankruptcy or screwing people over. This guy is playing the same game they are.

[frazzled]

33. As your mama probably told you

Two wrongs don't make a right. And as a corollary, I might say: it's not very effective to criticize a practice by adopting it yourself. (Like stop violence by being violent.) The proper way to protest business and banks, if that's what you want to do, is to stop utilizing them.

This guy re-ran up $40,000 credit card tab, after declaring bankruptcy, partly to renovate his home. Really? That's forty thousand dollars worth of honest vendors of carpets and appliances and possibly workmen/women who were cheated out of their earnings. It's robbery and doesn't hurt the banks.

There is simply no excuse for this.

[wickerwoman]

38. That not how credit cards work.

The vendors were paid by the bank when the transaction went through. The banks don't go back and get the money from the vendors if you don't then pay your credit card bill.

I'm not advocating this is anyway. Just pointing out that it isn't the venders who are hurt.

[galileoreloaded]

45. what in the hell are you talking about? n/t

[GeorgeGist]

50. Mamas aren't always right.

Two wrongs (like two negatives) when multiplied = one positive.

[coalition_unwilling]

57. FAIL for comletely mis-reporting how banks and credit card

companies reimburse vendors submitting charges.

Not excusing, but you need to educate yourself on exactly who got stiffed. HINT: It was the banks and credit card issuers, not the vendors and workmen.

[piratefish08]

you mean like the fucking BANKS that issue the cards did? except YOUR taxes bailed them out.

shouldn't the banks bail out their own customers in return? no?

explain why........

[sendero]

69. There was a time..

.. that I would have agreed with you. But not any more. The banks have been doing with credit cards for decades what they only started doing with housing in 2000s, LOANING MONEY TO POOR CREDIT RISKS TO MAKE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES IN SHORT TERM.

Most of the people who stop making payments because they simply don't have the money. Should they have run up the debt to begin with? In many if not most cases, no. But IT IS THE BANK's JOB TO AT LEAST MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO ONLY LOAN TO PEOPLE WHO CAN PAY BACK.

And did you even read the article? Chase TRIPLED his interest rate on an outstanding balance. That should be illegal (it may be now actually) but in any event, if you can do BASIC MATH you should be able to understand how ruinous that would be.

The banks have made their own bed, and anyone that decides to strike back at them is just all right with me.

[Scuba]

2. Not much of a plan, and no honor at all. n/t

[Name removed]

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[Scuba]

10. Read the other comments. n/t

[Name removed]

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[cui bono]

20. The poster has a right to her/his opinion. Why are you doling out snark in response?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[MattBaggins]

16. Business is not about morals or honor

Ask anyone working on Wall Street and they will tell you this.

[Journeyman]

28. Those concepts may mean nothing to Wall Street & other disreputable corporations. . .

but morals and honor mean everything to many of us who own businesses.

I wouldn't do what I do if I couldn't do with a clear conscience.

[pnwmom]

48. Maybe not, but your relationships with other people are,

including the ones you do business with.

[Incitatus]

58. That's exactly what the banks charging up to 30% want you to think.

Most of DU seems to think differently. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Scuba]

66. I don't pay anyone that kind of rate. People do need to pay attention....

... but simply running up credit cards and skipping the country is fraud. He wasn't cheated. He showed his true character when he was a bill collector threatening families.

[skepticscott]

3. And we should congratulate this guy....why?

He's a thief, a liar and a fraud, nothing more, despite his attempts to style himself as some sort of folk hero. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to charge ANYTHING on his credit cards, or even to have them. People like him are one of the reasons that interest rates are so high. Who do you think ends up paying that $80,000? You, me, and the rest of us who keep our word and honor our obligations.

Sheesh, the feeling of entitlement to spend money you don't have is just mind-boggling among some segments of the left.

[MicaelS]

26. Because... Banks, Big and Small Business

Screw ordinary people over all the time, and our government let's them do it. In fact, almost every time Business at any level in this country throws a tantrum, our government gives them what they want. Business in this country, lies, cheats, steals, bribes, defrauds and commits all sorts of crimes, and is hardly every punished. They pay a fine, big deal. Instead of the corporation being seized by the government, and the entire management and board sent to prison, which is what should happen. And I don't pity the investor either. They hired the management, let them pay the price for their decisions.

Some super rich CEO / Chairman steals a boatload of money, at the most he might pay a fine. They almost NEVER go to prison as they should. Some poor bastard steals money with a gun, or hot check he does hard time.

Business pulls this shit all the time, and you have the temerity to lecture ordinary people about paying their bills? Fuck that bullshit mentality.

Big and Small Business in this country has fought every important attempt to improve the quality of life of workers. They have fought every attempt at environmental regulation. Let's see business "keep their word and honor their obligations" to the American people, and the USA, first, before you start bashing ordinary people.

[skepticscott]

39. So, your argument is basically

everyone's doing it, so that makes it right.

Okey doke.

[MicaelS]

40. Yes, that is EXACTLY my argument. n/t

[Donnachaidh]

53. well that's the excuse we get thrown at us by politicians

and Steve Jobs cult members.....:rofl:

[bluestate10]

55. If everyone.

Took on the ethics of thieves, there will be nothing but thieves. How in the hell would you live in such a fucked up world? The method of dealing with banks IS;

-Don't get in fucking debt to them. If in debt, get out as fast as possible by paying it off and telling banks to fuck themselves.
-Put money into member owned financial institutions that put the financial well being and health of members on par with keeping the institution financially healthy.

The way to become nothing more than an after thought and a person deserving of ridicule is to follow douches that run up charges on credit cards then Welsh out on the obligations that they knowingly created for themselves.

[TwilightGardener]

5. Does he write bad checks around town too?

[bluestate10]

56. Probaly. nt

[rfranklin]

8. It used to be that lenders had to do due diligence...why should they get a pass?

I remember when it was difficult to get a credit card. You had to show a certain amount of income. You had to have a good credit history. Lenders took responsibility for who they were lending to.

Should they be protected and supported for bad business practices?

[Lance_Boyle]

9. This is disgusting.

Isn't the website evidence of conspiracy to commit fraud? This guy ought to be in prison.

[closeupready]

12. While I think people need to learn better how to manage their finances,

he and his methods generally are not, IMO, the way to go. Or at least, from the way the article makes him look - I have no idea if the author has an agenda, or what.

But I can't rec this thread.

[Evasporque]

14. Wisconsin Republicans already drafted a Debtor Prison law...making unpaid debts a felony...

Probably...

[Name removed]

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[MattBaggins]

17. Think that law will ever be applied to Corps, Banks or 1%ers?

[AllyCat]

18. This is largely theft. But if he has legitimate ideas to keep people in their homes

I'm all for it. I'm guessing that's not what's going on here though. People need a place to live. They don't need an entertainment system with surround sound and movie theater seating. So if he ran up these bills with no intent to pay, he's a crook. If he got shafted like the rest of us and now is trying to find ways to keep his head above water...that might be different. If he is trying to help people when they are frightened, coerced, or lied into paying off debt instead of making their utility payments and buying food, more power to him.

[azurnoir]

19. what the guy really did was leave the US for China - permanently he says

now he was quite well off enough so that he could take $38,000 in cash advances with him, something I don't believe most could do and he really doesn't address the credit vultures that plague more common folk the secondary debt collectors the ones who buy bad debts for pennies on dollar after the original company has written them off and gotten a tax credit for them

[postulater]

21. I bet a huge amount of that $80k

Was interest and penalties. The vendors get paid when you charge something.

He may have paid enuf to have paid for his purchases but gotten behind and been unable to keep up on the mounting fees. Especially when they jack up the interest rate to 29% just cuz they feel like it.

[skepticscott]

23. And his solution to that was

A. Stop charging things until his current debts were paid off

B. Get more credit cards and run up even more charges on them without paying.

[postulater]

24. Is that what he did? I didn't read the link.

[shraby]

29. Sorry, but the interest involved still runs the credit card up

way beyond what he probably charged.

[drmeow]

25. I had thought the same thing

and largely supported the guy for that reason until he admitted that the CC debt was $40,000 until he took out a $38,000 cash advance and bought a 1 way first class ticket to China. At that point he became no better than the banks.

[postulater]

30. Yeah, he really is a bad boy. That's not right.

[shraby]

27. You beat me to it. At the high rate of interest, it doesn't take

long to owe tremendously more than you ever ever charged on the card.

[Patiod]

31. That's my beef with credit cards

You take out a card that charges 8% interest (many years ago). You pay on time every month. But then you get into it with a department store about disputed charges, and your interest on the 8% card, which you've carefully paid on time every month, skyrockets to an unpayable 30%.

THAT'S where there needs to be reform. 30% is absolutely usurious and therefore is absolutely un-Biblical, for anyone playing along at home who styles themselves a "Christian".

I would have a lot more sympathy with the "pay your debt" folks if the card issuers weren't taking advantage of insane interest rates.

[closeupready]

34. That is a big part of the problem. Fees and interest double, triple or

even quadruple the amount owed. So what started out, overall, as a manageable amount of debt becomes not only unmanageable but downright crushing. Even as many workers are getting no raises, year after year?

How is that fair or right?

That said, I do not approve of what this guy did, at all.

[Yupster]

65. Well if people just walk away from their debts, the card company

makes it up by charging the paying customers more.

The losses have to be made up somewhere.

[NeedleCast]

32. So Basically He Just Stole A Lot Of Shit

Dude is an asshat.

[skepticscott]

36. Yeah, pretty much

But some here are determined to paint him as some sort of hero...

[NeedleCast]

43. Yeah, The Circular Logic Here Is Boggling

So if we steal from the people we think are stealing from us, that's going to solve the problem.

Yeah, nothing can go wrong with this plan...

[bluestate10]

59. In the minds of some, nothing can go wrong with such a plan.

Until life itself runs like a sewer. The way to deal with big banks is not to become cold blooded thieves. Big banks can be seriously damaged if millions of people would simply withdraw their money from them and put that money into member owned financial institutions.

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. I'm having a problem with this.

"People are brainwashed to think that paying a credit card is more important than paying for the necessities of life,"

If the guy wants to live on cash alone, that's his business. Anybody who extends him credit with his record is crazy.

[RebelOne]

37. One of Katz's mottos is "No one ever went to hell for not paying a debt."

But creditors can sure put the debtor through hell to collect their money. Believe me, I know. I finally had to file a Chapter 13 to get them off my back. They got their money over a period of 3 years.

[MineralMan]

42. I guess I'm old-fashioned...

If I incur a debt, I pay it off. My conscience doesn't allow me to do otherwise, even if circumstances make it difficult.

I just finished, in fact, paying off all my credit cards, which I closed at the same time. I had to refinance my house to do so. So, I paid off the principal and stopped the high interest rates they were charging. I still have the same amount of debt, but the interest rate is now manageable. I simply could not blow of debts I had willingly incurred. That would, for me, be dishonest and unethical.

[bluestate10]

60. You are doing it right.

The solution to getting out of high interest debt is to shift interest rates to lower levels. This happens best by taking out loans against assets where repayment of the loans happen at a lower interest rate. And when people make that change, they must close credit card accounts and cut the cards up to keep them out of the hands of douches that will use identity fraud to get money charged against the former card holder.

Your solution was not the best, but it is a good one.

[ArtiChoke]

44. What this guy did...

..was expatriate himself in order to maintain his standard of living. Look for this type of thing to increase drastically. Maybe not as underhandedly. Maybe folks will simply take their pensions, 401k's, SS and life-savings out of the country for places where their small income puts them in the 1% (or top half anyway) of income of their new home.

[Lance_Boyle]

46. Sort of, except this criminal BORROWED AND FLED

he didn't take money he had earned, he stole money from the banks. And guess who's left on the hook for paying back that money so this criminal can live the high life in China? Hint - unless your credit card is interest free it's probably you.

[ArtiChoke]

51. You're right but either way...

money leaves the US for foreign soil and those left behind ALL suffer for it. There's a bigger problem here than one person's deceit. These other countries will welcome US expats with money, earned here, to spend while our middle class shrinks further still.

As for this specific case, the banks tripled this guy's interest rates on his cards before new law went into effect prohibiting it. The bank's precipitating behavior is now criminal. Before it was just despicable.

[bluestate10]

64. You seem to be determined to make the douche sound good.

Banks want credit card customers to pay minimum payment amounts forever if possible, tripling rates work against banks goal. If a guy that runs up $80,000 in debt and takes out big cash advances before fleeing says his rates were tripled, I would question his claim.

[bluestate10]

61. Brilliant idea. Go to where one becomes the 1%, then stomp on the 99%.

Awww, the brilliance. How about staying in the USA to fucking fight to take the country back from the elite?

[FarCenter]

47. This is why you should pay your credit card balance in full each month

Credit card companies "charge off" unpaid balances like this $80K. In fact, the rule of thumb is that credit card companies charge off annually a percentage of balances roughly equal to the unemployment rate.

So currently, they would be charging off about 9% of balances annually.

They make up for it by charging interest on balances well above 9%, which covers the charge offs of uncollectables, collections activities, lawsuits, protections against fraudulently opened accounts, credit investigations, etc.

If you are carrying a balance and paying interest to the credit card companies, you are really supporting these deadbeats winnings and the expenses that the credit card company incurrs attempting to prevent them.

On the other hand, credit cards offer good consumer protections, 1% cash back, no annual fee, and no interest charges if you always pay them off without fail each month.

[liberal_mama]

49. Whoa! That's an interesting story!

:)

[JDPriestly]

52. My husband and I are retired and have a very, very low income.

We receive invitations to apply for new credit cards virtually every day. I am going to send them back to the banks.

The marketing of credit cards and loans in this country is way out of proportion to the growth of incomes. Get ready for yet another bubble because the banks haven't learned their lesson yet.

It's nice to have one credit card, especially if it pays the so-called rewards. But what kind of rewards will you get if you have five -- pretty crazy.

Frankly, if I want credit, I will go to my credit union, not to a big bank or a car dealer. If I am refused credit, it is because I can't afford it. And I appreciate having someone let me know what they think of my financial situation.

Bankers, if you give people more credit than they can repay, you have only yourselves to blame. A lot of people can barely read, much less add and subtract. And multiply? Are you kidding. You may think these things are easy, but they aren't easy for a lot of people.

[bluestate10]

62. Instead of sending the applications back, shred them or cut them up.

Financial fraudsters look for cards with real people's names on them. Big bank employees will not shred cards or applications that have your name on them, they will go into trash bins whole. You must destroy the cards.

[bluestate10]

54. An incredible douche.

Why print a fawning OP about a sack of shit like that man? How would he like it if his tax and accounting customers picked up their paperwork and refused to pay him? I am no fan of multi-national and big banks, all of them are bastards. But an obligation is just that. The way to avoid paying an obligation is to not get into one to start.

[brooklynite]

63. So then, it would be perfectly okay for me to go into his house and steal his stufff...

He didn't pay for it, so I don't have to either, right?

Stupid

[Name removed]

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[SOS]

70. In the 1930s, bank robbers were folk heroes

In normal times this guy would get no support.

But in this economy, plus years of abusive bank practices, he's going to
be quite popular.